At this point im happy with every bad/i cant finnish a single dungeon type of player quitting the game
Makes for the actually good ones to stay and improve the quality of groups.
I havent failed a single dungeon this week but im kind of tired carrying groups hardcore and explaining everything everytime all over again for every group.
Im only looking for expert groups now, the others have to fail over and over and over again in my opinion so they finally learn how to do it.
Im not and elitest by any means my GS GWF 8973 cant even knock over the dreadvault on normal mode end boss, ran this 7-9 times never even got close, the add swarm for every dungeon is crazy normal, t1, t2,
I have trained pugs and guildies on running dread vault both normal runs and epic. The problem isn't the difficulty at all but instead knowing strategies that work well. I have taken full pug groups to show them the end fight. Players that were skeptical that an all pug group could pull it off. I told them from the start, if they listen to a few simple directions it will work and they will complete it. Deviate from those instructions and it will fail. Their choice. Some listen and some ignore it thinking they have a better method and that ALWAYS determines the outcome. I've had pugs thanking me for the information and telling me they were never successful at the run until my group and it was easy using my methodology.
Tried lair of the mad dragon epic FAIL, 2nd boss mephit swarms on cleric, doesnt even do anything to aggro, 40 pots, and 30 heal kits wasted, but no control wizard present. spent close to 1 and a half hours in delve in total 1 hour trying to fight demon, rezzing and running to boss only to see it reset with about 1/4 health left constantly.
Same thing here. I have trained groups and pugs on how to run mad dragon effectively. I have turned players who hated running it into liking it for a farming dungeon. Showing them a tried and true method of winning but the same thing occasionally happens where a pug will challenge the directions and suggestions thinking their method is better and it sometimes causes failure. Those who follow the directions always walk away with rewards at the end.
Tried spellplague caverns t2 a few times now, got to second boss, adds crazy, probably shouldnt have attempted with it being 8300, but ran out of heal kits, pots u name it, it destroyed guild mates into dropping game, "great game, but shocking game ai/boss mechanic, thats just fill everything with adds",(no control wizard present) im still hanging around but pugging it at this point to find out how other groups can be successful in dungeons.
Some say spellplague is too hard, but I think it is the easiest t2 dungeon. But once again it comes back to proper suggested instructions. Players who ignore them will generally cause a failure. But if they actually care enough for a win will follow them to success. It isn't a hard dungeon even for a low geared t2 character. It's all about knowing what to do for your class and what to avoid for your class. It just comes down to that.
There are no real Boss fights in this game. If you don't use exploits on adds and cheese then it just doesn't work. The lack of effort put into dungeons just puts everyone that wants to do them in a sad place fighting millions of ADDs that make you rage and never want to go back to another DD. I only do the DD for the chest and hate all the dungeons because every dungeon has a shortcut, exploits pushes off ledges and just worse boss fight mechanics where the boss is Tanked by a Rogue lol.. a Rogue and leave millions of adds to be kited by the healer makes sense right ? I hope they fix and revisist redoing every dungeon since they just aren't enjoyable and there rewards are even less. Ill stick to PvP and do my DD speed run with shortcuts I guess till then.
I agree. T2 end bosses are just retardedly hard. Of course that's why theres scrolls of revival, right? If end bosses were too easy, nobody would ever buy those.
Not to mention the amount of non-english speaking people out there who have no idea wtf they're doing, just go around pulling every add and you can't do anything because they don't understand you.
Yes, I can say, T2 is not fun if you can't ever complete them. And most of the time my party can't. Either up the gear rating (because I'm seeing 8k GS in Spider Temple and Spellplague epics) lower the difficulty, or at least make language specific servers (or some kind of ingame translator?)
So far, the only T2 I've been able to do consistantly is Karundax and that's only because of the exploits.
I don't know whats wrong with Neverwinter's community.
Dungeons were extremely exploitable, you guys asked for a fix because it was " too easy" and now that it is fixed you guys are complaining it is "retardly hard".
What the hell? Today i did Epic spider with me (TR) 1 GWF 1 GF 1 CW and 1 DC ( an ideal party like they say). It was smooth and all went fine.
I don't know whats wrong with Neverwinter's community.
Dungeons were extremely exploitable, you guys asked for a fix because it was " too easy" and now that it is fixed you guys are complaining it is "retardly hard".
What the hell? Today i did Epic spider with me (TR) 1 GWF 1 GF 1 CW and 1 DC ( an ideal party like they say). It was smooth and all went fine.
Whats wrong is they don't know how to make a dungeon. We don't want exploits but we would like a dungeon to be enjoyable at some point and want to go back into it again. I hate every dungeon in this game. Its filled with junk Adds, overkill on CC and sucks with just lazy boss design. I helped my guild do Frozen Heart I normally stick to PvP. oh 1million adds on the boss. Its not hard its stupid and poorly done. We just don't like them is more so the point. I really love a difficult dungeon and something to work towards and progress threw and would love some Raids that is extremely hard to complete. What I don't want is more adds cause a good dungeon isn't thought of. More adds doesn't mean more difficult it means its annoying and we don't want to play is all.
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gornonthecobMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 421Arc User
edited July 2013
I do not mind wiping to a boss 3 or 4 times as long as we're making SOME progress. Hell, I'd stay for 2 hours, and burn through 30 healing kits. (people actually whine about using healing kits?? It's just gold!)) But these adds wipe you out before you can even learn from your mistakes. As game developers, you need to be listening to the squeaky wheels. The game is WAY too easy in some places. I out leveled most content before I could even enjoy it. I did nothing but adventure zone quests with a few PVP matches in between. By the time I'd beat the adventure zone and get the quest for the dungeon, I'd outleveled the queue for it!
Then when I can finally go back in and see the dungeons via T1/T2, they're so **** hard I can't do them. That's not fun. That's just an excuse to avoid leveling up.
I do not mind wiping to a boss 3 or 4 times as long as we're making SOME progress. Hell, I'd stay for 2 hours, and burn through 30 healing kits. (people actually whine about using healing kits?? It's just gold!))
I never thought they were that difficult at all, after all they are EPIC dungeons. But they never felt enjoyable either. Lack of imagination.. or just tiresome fights.. anyway after exploiting and finishing successfully I never had the feeling of accomplishing something epic.
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rannox1Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 15Arc User
edited July 2013
I've actually been raging because the game is too easy... hmm
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m1nuendMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I love how people are whining about being able to knock enemies off ledges. Its just hilarious. I mean, wtf do you think a knockback is for? If you want, tank a boss right next to a ledge and then have him land an aoe knockback on you and insta kill you just like you did his adds. Is the boss exploiting too? What a joke.
I think it's legitimate if it means you suddenly have to exclude certain classes because of it. Knocking off is ok, being a excluded class is not that amusing.
Though personally, I found that one time I was with a group that knocked everyone off in Pirate King most boring. If I want to spend half an hour walking my character around, I might as well do it in Protector's Enclave.
I also enjoy a lot tough boss fights. Having to try 10 times to win is ok to me, as long as it's challenging and feels like an achievement when you've won.
My BF and I play with PUGs. And the problem is, your type of attitude is severely lacking in this game.
There is one death the first 15 minutes and you have at least one leaver. You have one death at the first boss, you have a leaver. You wipe on the final boss first try, you have a leaver regardless of how much health we kicked off it. I think there has been like 4 or 5 times (through lvl 1-60) the group actually all agreed a dungeon could not be completed, no ragequits.
Recently I find my BF and me being overly apologetic and encouraging to try to prevent people from leaving. Don't get me wrong, we are not terrible, causing people to leave. If we manage to get the group to the final boss (which is often more difficult than the boss itself), we probably have an 80% success rate. It depends a little on your playing style and opinions on how to fight is compatible with pugs etc.
Our group consists of GF, DC, CW, CW, TR. We have done every fight by either having the tank on the boss and the rest of the group on add duty until the tank + occasional attacks from the dps kills the boss. Or we have the cleric kite the adds with the CW's killing ranged adds and everyone else on the boss to kill it before the cleric gets overran.
You are playing with your group. Try doing it with 4 players you have never played with before. Difficult mode plus 500. One of the reasons being because of my pre- previous paragraph. Though, you still have the advantage of knowing the strategies.
Some say spellplague is too hard, but I think it is the easiest t2 dungeon. But once again it comes back to proper suggested instructions. Players who ignore them will generally cause a failure. But if they actually care enough for a win will follow them to success. It isn't a hard dungeon even for a low geared t2 character. It's all about knowing what to do for your class and what to avoid for your class. It just comes down to that.
Well, that is also a very common problem. You often need at least one who has completed the boss before to be able to defeat it. If you know what strategy to play with a certain boss, you can take it down more easily. But a lot of people don't have that luxury.
In addition, there are quite a number of arrogant players who will flame the **** out of other teammates instead of giving advice. Though a lot of the same players are quite bad themselves and tend to blame others for their own shortcomings...
Neverwinter is my first MMO. I have completed all T1 dungeons except Grey Wolf which I have not attempted yet.
As for T2; Pirate King was easier than Mad Dragon, surprisingly (possible to complete 3 times during DD). I did the Caverns of Karrundax once. We followed one guy who knew all shortcuts, so I don't know if that counts as completed.
I have attempted the Spider maybe 4 or 5 times- once where everyone stayed until we reached the final boss. We were clueless as for strategy, so we wiped after few minutes.
Reached the final boss of Spellplague twice after 4 or 5 times with people leaving. First without a wizard- wiped. I think we had a wizard the second time, not sure. we did regardless wipe again. Strategy was "push off edge".
I don't think it's hopeless, but I think you are a little too dependent on people who have done it twice or thrice before with different combinations of classes.
Well, I have given up on T2 dungeons for now. Leveling another character instead. I will probably attempt them again if I find enough people who are laidback and have decent skills.
I don't have an opinion as whether the difficulty should be lowered or not. It depends on whether you want to look at it from a solo player or group playing perspective. If you have enough friends who play, then T2 dungeons will probably be fine. If you have little to no friends, then it's a bit too difficult. One could alternatively have 1, 2, 3 or 4 player dungeons that rewarded similar epic items, still with high difficulty.
I guess I'm just getting too old for this s***, to quote Danny Glover.
I just don't have the urge to prove something to myself, let alone others by defeating bosses in computer games. I have enough challenge and achievement in real life. Now that I think of it, it has nothing to do with age. I already felt like that when I was younger and had enough challenge and achievement at university or at school and in sports and in dealing with girls and all that.
I just want to have some escapism, immersion, RPG and general fun with a computer game. I thought if there is one MMORPG that really concentrates on the RPG part of it and highlights immersion, it ought to be the one with the Dungeons & Dragons license. Was that such a unrealistic expectation? I think not and yet I was very wrong. This isn't a RPG, it is a Hack & Slash. Cryptic should have bought and used the "Golden Axe" license instead of soiling the Neverwinter name. If I wanted to play Diablo, I would play Diablo.
I have no feeling of immersion, behind the pretty locations and a thin veneer of fantasy setting this game feels as much as really being in another world as Tetris does. It is all just about clicking buttons and about numbers.
No free roaming, no real overarching storyline (just because the name of that female Lich gets mentioned here and there doesn't give me the feeling of working on achieving a bigger goal while being send to those different and separated game reservations to kill Zombies or Daemons or Spiders), all there is is the hunt for XP and the next level and those annoying boss fights that really manage to be boring and infuriating at the same time.
(Also a question: Do I even have a chance of playing this game alone in higher levels? It seems next to impossible to befriend people you don't already know in real life. All the people I tried to contact either ignored me or turned out to be Italians/French/Spaniards who don't speak English. I waited hours at the entrance of dungeons, telling "the zone" that I need a party and I always end up doing those dungeons with 1 or 2 people that I can't talk to and that are barely leveled high enough to succeed.)
If I get any response to this complaint, it will probably be one of the "well, you're wrong in this game, go somewhere else"-kind and normally I don't complain when I consider such an objection valid, but it isn't really valid here. I shouldn't be wrong in a Dungeons & Dragons game. The people who only want to grind and to prove something to themselves by dropping bosses left and right should be wrong here. They should be playing "Street Fighter the MMO" or something like that, while people like me should be exploring the vast, wondrous world of the Forgotten Realms and have real adventures and role playing.
I guess I'm just getting too old for this s***, to quote Danny Glover.
I just don't have the urge to prove something to myself, let alone others by defeating bosses in computer games. I have enough challenge and achievement in real life. Now that I think of it, it has nothing to do with age. I already felt like that when I was younger and had enough challenge and achievement at university or at school and in sports and in dealing with girls and all that.
I just want to have some escapism, immersion, RPG and general fun with a computer game. I thought if there is one MMORPG that really concentrates on the RPG part of it and highlights immersion, it ought to be the one with the Dungeons & Dragons license. Was that such a unrealistic expectation? I think not and yet I was very wrong. This isn't a RPG, it is a Hack & Slash. Cryptic should have bought and used the "Golden Axe" license instead of soiling the Neverwinter name. If I wanted to play Diablo, I would play Diablo.
I have no feeling of immersion, behind the pretty locations and a thin veneer of fantasy setting this game feels as much as really being in another world as Tetris does. It is all just about clicking buttons and about numbers.
No free roaming, no real overarching storyline (just because the name of that female Lich gets mentioned here and there doesn't give me the feeling of working on achieving a bigger goal while being send to those different and separated game reservations to kill Zombies or Daemons or Spiders), all there is is the hunt for XP and the next level and those annoying boss fights that really manage to be boring and infuriating at the same time.
(Also a question: Do I even have a chance of playing this game alone in higher levels? It seems next to impossible to befriend people you don't already know in real life. All the people I tried to contact either ignored me or turned out to be Italians/French/Spaniards who don't speak English. I waited hours at the entrance of dungeons, telling "the zone" that I need a party and I always end up doing those dungeons with 1 or 2 people that I can't talk to and that are barely leveled high enough to succeed.)
If I get any response to this complaint, it will probably be one of the "well, you're wrong in this game, go somewhere else"-kind and normally I don't complain when I consider such an objection valid, but it isn't really valid here. I shouldn't be wrong in a Dungeons & Dragons game. The people who only want to grind and to prove something to themselves by dropping bosses left and right should be wrong here. They should be playing "Street Fighter the MMO" or something like that, while people like me should be exploring the vast, wondrous world of the Forgotten Realms and have real adventures and role playing.
You know what I always find funny about these sorts of posts is that it clearly only addresses the posters concerns or ideals. So you don't look at the game as a challenge because your real life offers you enough. Okay fine, but not everyone has that mentality so you are wanting to what? Scold those who do have that mentality? You want to try to avoid people telling you that neverwinter isn't the game for you and you should go elsewhere but you want to tell them the same thing for their mentality. You haven't won anything with that argument at all.
My question to you is, what exactly are you exploring? There is only so much content even if you include foundry to "explore". You do one dungeon it is always the same dungeon every visit. So how exactly do you "explore" a dungeon you have done a dozen times? Oh maybe you never actually get through the dungeon because you are holding up your party to look at the shiny thing on the dungeon wall boring them to death waiting for you.
You know what I always find funny about these sorts of posts is that it clearly only addresses the posters concerns or ideals. So you don't look at the game as a challenge because your real life offers you enough. Okay fine, but not everyone has that mentality so you are wanting to what? Scold those who do have that mentality? You want to try to avoid people telling you that neverwinter isn't the game for you and you should go elsewhere but you want to tell them the same thing for their mentality. You haven't won anything with that argument at all.
My question to you is, what exactly are you exploring? There is only so much content even if you include foundry to "explore". You do one dungeon it is always the same dungeon every visit. So how exactly do you "explore" a dungeon you have done a dozen times? Oh maybe you never actually get through the dungeon because you are holding up your party to look at the shiny thing on the dungeon wall boring them to death waiting for you.
I'm not scolding people who have another approach to gaming than me, I'm scolding the people who made this game, took a name that ought to stand for good RPG-ing, something for my type of gamer and turned it into something that only that other kind of gamer can enjoy.
There are many IPs out there that could easily be turned into Hack&Slay-MMOs for people who enjoy grinding and fighting all the time, but this is likely to stay the only MMO that has the Dungeons & Dragons/Forgotten Realms/Neverwinter name attached to it.
This is the one licensed IP game that could and should have given people like me what we wish for and instead people who have so much more to chose from were pandered to some more. Like I said, I'm not blaming those gamers, I'm blaming the people who took the D&D license and turned it into a game that only resembles D&D at the surface, but not in its gameplay or substance.
Is it unreasonable to be angry about that by me? Or am I being greedy for wanting one MMO for people like me?
I don't think so.
When I make a reservation at a restaurant that is called "Bob's Steakhouse" because I want some good steak and then I arrive there and it turns out "Bob's Steakhouse" is really a sushi bar and doesn't serve steak, then I think I have a right to be annoyed. That doesn't mean that I am angry at people who like sushi.
If you were in such a situation, would you appreciate other patrons telling you "what they always find funny" about people being annoyed by finding a sushi bar instead of a steak house?
To summarize my position: The IP of Dungeons&Dragons/Forgotten Realms/Neverwinter stands for archetypal, classical fantasy role playing and adventure. A MMO that uses this IP ought to be one that is heavy on the RPG and adventure elements. That is not a expectation I would have of a "Golden Axe" or a "Warcraft" or even a "LOTR" IP game, but it is a reasonable expectation to have of a game based on D&D.
It is also not unreasonable to be disappointed and angry because this game might have been the one chance to get the kind of game I was hoping for. The chance of there ever being another Neverwinter MMORPG are basically zero now that this game exists. And for what? So people who like this kind of game, who have dozens of other games like this to chose from can have some more of what they already got in abundance.
To go back to that restaurant analogy: Now imagine "Bob's Steakhouse" would be the only steakhouse in the world....
That would suck for people who like steak, wouldn't it?
Yes, Cryptic and this game objectively, not just subjectively took something away from me and just because other people don't feel that way, doesn't mean my whining is unfounded.
I feel your stance in that its not really favored towards purely DnD players. I don't blame you, I'd still play DnD with my friend but you have to understand that the game is ran by a company, thus companies must make revenue. We will spend more time playing DnD than playing neverwinter. They have to change the game to appeal to other playerbases to make revenue. If a steakhouse isnt making money, it will serve sushi or it will close down.
Nevermore@meeggtoast 12.2 BiS TR Lanaya@meeggtoast 13.4 BiS GWF Shendelzare@meeggtoast 11.2k CN mule CW
This game's Dungeon bosses are difficult no doubt. I spent the past two weeks remaining at level for the Pirate King only to not find a single group able to down him (on level). I even made a post about it just a few minutes ago.
Sorry PW, but your game NEEDS SOME LOVIN' and ATTENTION!
(Also a question: Do I even have a chance of playing this game alone in higher levels? It seems next to impossible to befriend people you don't already know in real life. All the people I tried to contact either ignored me or turned out to be Italians/French/Spaniards who don't speak English. I waited hours at the entrance of dungeons, telling "the zone" that I need a party and I always end up doing those dungeons with 1 or 2 people that I can't talk to and that are barely leveled high enough to succeed.)
I am sure you will get this answer a lot, but your best choice is to join an English speaking Guild that fits your requirements. The Guild search engine is actually quite decent.
Not the bosses are difficult. It's the insane spawn of adds at some T2 dungeons. The only way of dealing with adds on some bosses is to kite them for 20 mins while the group take out the boss.
it is a legit tactic, without doubt. However, it don't feel very epic to run in circles with 30 mobs behind you.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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martinxyz999Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3Arc User
edited July 2013
It wouldn't be so bad if you could re-enter the fight after you have died. Now you have to wait outside and see the others get killed as well. And then you re-enter as a group and so and so ...
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yaubotMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 24Arc User
edited July 2013
Sorry but the dungeon and Bosses at at the correct level. The problem is random squads dunno what they are doing.
A GF that doesn't know who to pull back mobs using tab skill
TR that focuses solely on the boss while their party dies around them.
CW and GWF that don't use CC skills properly.
but mostly from what I have seen. Clerics that: stand still, don't use sun burst, are only using astral shield, and don't use at wills to increase there divinity.
T2 is relatively easy to do if you have other people that know how to play their class, but with random squads and people speaking different languages it's next to impossible in random squads.
3) Find out if that boss has any special quirks, or needs special tactics (like the spellplague boss, where shoving is an intended core mechanic, and you have to keep trash away from the boss, or he makes them invulnerable). Execute those tactics.
4) Don't stand in the red stuff.
5) If you're standing in red stuff, move. If you see red stuff appear while you're in the middle of a long cast, move anyway. Even if you're a CW casting Steal Time, and moving wastes the cooldown, move anyway. You will get a new cooldown in a few seconds, but only if you're still alive.
6) Don't stand in the red stuff.
Most of the boss fights aren't hard. A few require actual tactics, which you need to execute- eg. the end bosses of Spellplague and Frozen Heart, and to a more limited extent, Spider.
There are a few actually hard bosses, the Beholder guy (whose name I forget) in CN has adds that hurt a lot if you don't cheese him, and the risk/reward makes people unwilling to do it properly, as it's not really a fun fight. The Dracolich fight at the end of CN is really annoying without a pair of CWs, too, so people tend to stack those in order to better collect magic underpants. Other than that, the bosses are pretty easy, with a minimally competent group.
Obviously, that last bit is important. If your DC thinks he's playing a priest in WoW, and is stacking all his heals on the GF, then you're gonna have a wipey time. Boss fights in this game work differently. Often you just leave a TR on the boss, and pop a seal up to keep the TR topped off- bosses are mostly punchbags with big HP pools, the challenge being to deplete the pool before the adds eat you. The real fight, and thus where the bulk of the action and healing needs to be, is generally fighting those stupid waves of adds. It's amazing how many people haven't noticed this, expecting the mechanic to be identical to games like WoW/SWTOR and older bredren, and seem to lack the observational skills to overcome their preconceptions.
I do agree that the endless trash waves on bosses are a boring mechanic, and that the boss fights could be a lot more interesting, but with the exceptions outlined above, it's mostly just zergable, if people know how to play their classes to a reasonable extent*.
* Many don't. You'd be amazed how many Renegade specced CWs you see, single target plinking away at mobs and doing no CC at all, for example, or DCs trying to heal the group using only Soothing Light, etc..
3) Find out if that boss has any special quirks, or needs special tactics (like the spellplague boss, where shoving is an intended core mechanic, and you have to keep trash away from the boss, or he makes them invulnerable). Execute those tactics.
4) Don't stand in the red stuff.
5) If you're standing in red stuff, move. If you see red stuff appear while you're in the middle of a long cast, move anyway. Even if you're a CW casting Steal Time, and moving wastes the cooldown, move anyway. You will get a new cooldown in a few seconds, but only if you're still alive.
6) Don't stand in the red stuff.
Most of the boss fights aren't hard. A few require actual tactics, which you need to execute- eg. the end bosses of Spellplague and Frozen Heart, and to a more limited extent, Spider.
There are a few actually hard bosses, the Beholder guy (whose name I forget) in CN has adds that hurt a lot if you don't cheese him, and the risk/reward makes people unwilling to do it properly, as it's not really a fun fight. The Dracolich fight at the end of CN is really annoying without a pair of CWs, too, so people tend to stack those in order to better collect magic underpants. Other than that, the bosses are pretty easy, with a minimally competent group.
Obviously, that last bit is important. If your DC thinks he's playing a priest in WoW, and is stacking all his heals on the GF, then you're gonna have a wipey time. Boss fights in this game work differently. Often you just leave a TR on the boss, and pop a seal up to keep the TR topped off- bosses are mostly punchbags with big HP pools, the challenge being to deplete the pool before the adds eat you. The real fight, and thus where the bulk of the action and healing needs to be, is generally fighting those stupid waves of adds. It's amazing how many people haven't noticed this, expecting the mechanic to be identical to games like WoW/SWTOR and older bredren, and seem to lack the observational skills to overcome their preconceptions.
I do agree that the endless trash waves on bosses are a boring mechanic, and that the boss fights could be a lot more interesting, but with the exceptions outlined above, it's mostly just zergable, if people know how to play their classes to a reasonable extent*.
* Many don't. You'd be amazed how many Renegade specced CWs you see, single target plinking away at mobs and doing no CC at all, for example, or DCs trying to heal the group using only Soothing Light, etc..
Good post and all but you forgot to mention its really important that people dodge the red stuff on the ground..
I dont think the bosses are too difficult. After you do your first dungeon run at lvl 15ish you have basically seen all this game has to offer in terms of fight mechanics: manage adds and dps boss.
I do think the bosses' hp could be decreased a bit. As other posters have said, 15-20min fights where a single misstep means death get a little draining.
Also, from my perspective as a cw, i think adds need to do a bit less dmg or not spawn as fast. I normally with another cw and in some fights if we dont almost constantly back-to-back singularity one of so is going to get surrounded and killed by the adds.
The biggest "difficulty" issue, imo, is people quitting mid run. While pugging, i normally have a success rate of 1/3 runs completed b/c people always quit, for whatever reason.
First of all, I have been playing MMORPGs for a while. Conducted Raids on Vanilla WoW with 40 men. But, I have never ever had to deal with so many issues in just Epic Dungeons like these.
The group I just went with inside of a T2 dungeon got all the way to the boss without any issues. No wipes a few deaths but nothing to worry about. But, when we got to the boss fight; it seemed like none of us had gear to even try.
Cryptic, if your goal was to make a game that is so difficult that gamers do not enjoy; you have achieved your goal.
If there is no change on scaling down the boss fights in the next patches, seems that I will have to find another game!
T2 dungeons need to be designed better then they currently are... The trash is so trivial compared to the difficulty of the boss fight at the end of the dungeon. You spend X amount of time clearing the dungeon and get stone walled by the boss every time I PUG a T2 dungeon. It's a terrible design that is extremely frustrating!
It's pretty obvious something is very wrong when after pages of people discussing group make up they all exclude a tank.
There are a lot of really hopeless GFs, who don't understand that they're there to gather adds, and also do decent damage. The game design is such that leaving them out for another CW, a GWF or a TR is often more efficient, though. I suppose that's what you're getting at- the trinity seems to be present in the game, but doesn't really work in dungeons?
You win a couple of nearly-new internets then Still a bit confused why you're rene specced, but maybe that's just a hangover from pre-balance patch? I know how much it can annoy to have to change stuff like that. Still, if you bring the utility, that's good enough, even if you could be doing a ton more damage now in a better spec.
Edit: wait.. you said that you have trouble CCing the mobs, even when there are two CWs? You're not doing anywhere near enough CC then. With the exception of the Dracolich fight, and maybe the end of Spellplague, a single CW should be just fine. You really need to look at your spec and rotation, if you can't solo CW the majority of the game.
The biggest "difficulty" issue, imo, is people quitting mid run. While pugging, i normally have a success rate of 1/3 runs completed b/c people always quit, for whatever reason.
I agree with you, though I am also aware that I have quit two groups in the last week. The first was an Epic Spellplague where the CW didn't use Singularity, Shield Pulse or even repel mobs at all- so were were dragging all the trash to the bridge like bellends while he cast Magic Space Potato and then died from standing in red stuff. I asked him five times, politely, on different pulls to actually use some proper CC. He then angrily told me that he didn't have Repulsion or Arcane Singularity because the DPS wasn't good enough on them. Given that I was on a GWF which dinged 60 about an hour earlier, and I was doing roughly 50% more damage than him, this seemed like poor justification at best. I didn't fancy trying to do the last boss of the instance with no proper CC or push. Thus, leaving was a pragmatic way to save time and potions, as there was no way that the group would succeed in that instance, with that CW.
The second one was an Epic PK, where the DC was trying to heal the group entirely using soothing light, the second divine at-will. This burns divinity, and heals single targets only.. So he was able to (eventually) heal a single target a bit, for a couple of seconds, before his divinity ran out, and he'd have to build it up. Of course, he also didn't seem to use Sun Burst at all, so this took a while.
The net effect was that he was less useful than the white cleric minipet, as I discovered during the first boss fight, which we did with potions and graveyard zerging only.
Now, that group didn't have a CW, and the last boss is a fairly add-heavy fight. I'm normally fine with that, as my GWF can aoe tank the mobs fairly easily if there's an Astral Shield to stand in. However, this DC didn't seem to cast Astral Shield. Ever. The only things he seemed to use were Soothing Light and Lance Of Faith. I therefore took the decision that even if we did batter our way to the last boss with zero healing, burning countless stacks of pots as we went, we wouldn't be able to kill him, and were basically screwed.
Thus, after asking the cleric a few times to.. you know, heal people, I left that group, too, as it was doomed, and no-one could even get a response from the DC.
So, leaving is sometimes unavoidable. I am not the sort of person who leaves after a few wipes- but if you are in a situation where there is literally no scope for improvement through refining team tactics.. well, you have to know when to fold
Sorry but the dungeon and Bosses at at the correct level. The problem is random squads dunno what they are doing.
A GF that doesn't know who to pull back mobs using tab skill
TR that focuses solely on the boss while their party dies around them.
CW and GWF that don't use CC skills properly.
but mostly from what I have seen. Clerics that: stand still, don't use sun burst, are only using astral shield, and don't use at wills to increase there divinity.
T2 is relatively easy to do if you have other people that know how to play their class, but with random squads and people speaking different languages it's next to impossible in random squads.
Just want to say that sunburst is not required. Not a game breaker at all.
Just want to say that sunburst is not required. Not a game breaker at all.
If you're getting enough divinity and AP to keep casting Astral Shield whenever it's cooled, and Hallowed Ground just before it drops most of the time, no. However, it's such a useful skill that you'd have to have a pretty amazing reason not to use it in PvE, as it takes the pressure right off a busy DC in a T2.
So, what's your revelatory rotation, and how much recovery do you stack for it?
Sorry but the dungeon and Bosses at at the correct level. The problem is random squads dunno what they are doing.
A GF that doesn't know who to pull back mobs using tab skill
TR that focuses solely on the boss while their party dies around them.
CW and GWF that don't use CC skills properly.
but mostly from what I have seen. Clerics that: stand still, don't use sun burst, are only using astral shield, and don't use at wills to increase there divinity.
T2 is relatively easy to do if you have other people that know how to play their class, but with random squads and people speaking different languages it's next to impossible in random squads.
no they aren't at the correct level at all... the dungeons are typically easy until you get to the end bosses and then its like going from level 59 in PvP to level 60 in PvP ... when running the non-boss fights I've been in groups that appeared to never take damage and never needed healing help, once into the final bosses everyone can be killed in an instant and there is nothing that can be done about it when such stuff as tentacles lash out and one hit kill ... just like in PvP I bet it isn't hard if your group is pre-made and everyone is running top geared equipment but that still doesn't make the boss and non-boss areas even close to being properly balanced
Comments
Makes for the actually good ones to stay and improve the quality of groups.
I havent failed a single dungeon this week but im kind of tired carrying groups hardcore and explaining everything everytime all over again for every group.
Im only looking for expert groups now, the others have to fail over and over and over again in my opinion so they finally learn how to do it.
I have trained pugs and guildies on running dread vault both normal runs and epic. The problem isn't the difficulty at all but instead knowing strategies that work well. I have taken full pug groups to show them the end fight. Players that were skeptical that an all pug group could pull it off. I told them from the start, if they listen to a few simple directions it will work and they will complete it. Deviate from those instructions and it will fail. Their choice. Some listen and some ignore it thinking they have a better method and that ALWAYS determines the outcome. I've had pugs thanking me for the information and telling me they were never successful at the run until my group and it was easy using my methodology.
Same thing here. I have trained groups and pugs on how to run mad dragon effectively. I have turned players who hated running it into liking it for a farming dungeon. Showing them a tried and true method of winning but the same thing occasionally happens where a pug will challenge the directions and suggestions thinking their method is better and it sometimes causes failure. Those who follow the directions always walk away with rewards at the end.
Some say spellplague is too hard, but I think it is the easiest t2 dungeon. But once again it comes back to proper suggested instructions. Players who ignore them will generally cause a failure. But if they actually care enough for a win will follow them to success. It isn't a hard dungeon even for a low geared t2 character. It's all about knowing what to do for your class and what to avoid for your class. It just comes down to that.
is there any quit button or something?
Not to mention the amount of non-english speaking people out there who have no idea wtf they're doing, just go around pulling every add and you can't do anything because they don't understand you.
Yes, I can say, T2 is not fun if you can't ever complete them. And most of the time my party can't. Either up the gear rating (because I'm seeing 8k GS in Spider Temple and Spellplague epics) lower the difficulty, or at least make language specific servers (or some kind of ingame translator?)
So far, the only T2 I've been able to do consistantly is Karundax and that's only because of the exploits.
Dungeons were extremely exploitable, you guys asked for a fix because it was " too easy" and now that it is fixed you guys are complaining it is "retardly hard".
What the hell? Today i did Epic spider with me (TR) 1 GWF 1 GF 1 CW and 1 DC ( an ideal party like they say). It was smooth and all went fine.
Whats wrong is they don't know how to make a dungeon. We don't want exploits but we would like a dungeon to be enjoyable at some point and want to go back into it again. I hate every dungeon in this game. Its filled with junk Adds, overkill on CC and sucks with just lazy boss design. I helped my guild do Frozen Heart I normally stick to PvP. oh 1million adds on the boss. Its not hard its stupid and poorly done. We just don't like them is more so the point. I really love a difficult dungeon and something to work towards and progress threw and would love some Raids that is extremely hard to complete. What I don't want is more adds cause a good dungeon isn't thought of. More adds doesn't mean more difficult it means its annoying and we don't want to play is all.
Then when I can finally go back in and see the dungeons via T1/T2, they're so **** hard I can't do them. That's not fun. That's just an excuse to avoid leveling up.
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HAH! Say that again when you're running CN.
I think it's legitimate if it means you suddenly have to exclude certain classes because of it. Knocking off is ok, being a excluded class is not that amusing.
Though personally, I found that one time I was with a group that knocked everyone off in Pirate King most boring. If I want to spend half an hour walking my character around, I might as well do it in Protector's Enclave.
My BF and I play with PUGs. And the problem is, your type of attitude is severely lacking in this game.
There is one death the first 15 minutes and you have at least one leaver. You have one death at the first boss, you have a leaver. You wipe on the final boss first try, you have a leaver regardless of how much health we kicked off it. I think there has been like 4 or 5 times (through lvl 1-60) the group actually all agreed a dungeon could not be completed, no ragequits.
Recently I find my BF and me being overly apologetic and encouraging to try to prevent people from leaving. Don't get me wrong, we are not terrible, causing people to leave. If we manage to get the group to the final boss (which is often more difficult than the boss itself), we probably have an 80% success rate. It depends a little on your playing style and opinions on how to fight is compatible with pugs etc.
You are playing with your group. Try doing it with 4 players you have never played with before. Difficult mode plus 500. One of the reasons being because of my pre- previous paragraph. Though, you still have the advantage of knowing the strategies.
Well, that is also a very common problem. You often need at least one who has completed the boss before to be able to defeat it. If you know what strategy to play with a certain boss, you can take it down more easily. But a lot of people don't have that luxury.
In addition, there are quite a number of arrogant players who will flame the **** out of other teammates instead of giving advice. Though a lot of the same players are quite bad themselves and tend to blame others for their own shortcomings...
Neverwinter is my first MMO. I have completed all T1 dungeons except Grey Wolf which I have not attempted yet.
As for T2; Pirate King was easier than Mad Dragon, surprisingly (possible to complete 3 times during DD). I did the Caverns of Karrundax once. We followed one guy who knew all shortcuts, so I don't know if that counts as completed.
I have attempted the Spider maybe 4 or 5 times- once where everyone stayed until we reached the final boss. We were clueless as for strategy, so we wiped after few minutes.
Reached the final boss of Spellplague twice after 4 or 5 times with people leaving. First without a wizard- wiped. I think we had a wizard the second time, not sure. we did regardless wipe again. Strategy was "push off edge".
I don't think it's hopeless, but I think you are a little too dependent on people who have done it twice or thrice before with different combinations of classes.
Well, I have given up on T2 dungeons for now. Leveling another character instead. I will probably attempt them again if I find enough people who are laidback and have decent skills.
I don't have an opinion as whether the difficulty should be lowered or not. It depends on whether you want to look at it from a solo player or group playing perspective. If you have enough friends who play, then T2 dungeons will probably be fine. If you have little to no friends, then it's a bit too difficult. One could alternatively have 1, 2, 3 or 4 player dungeons that rewarded similar epic items, still with high difficulty.
But in the end, I guess it's still a MMO, so..
I just don't have the urge to prove something to myself, let alone others by defeating bosses in computer games. I have enough challenge and achievement in real life. Now that I think of it, it has nothing to do with age. I already felt like that when I was younger and had enough challenge and achievement at university or at school and in sports and in dealing with girls and all that.
I just want to have some escapism, immersion, RPG and general fun with a computer game. I thought if there is one MMORPG that really concentrates on the RPG part of it and highlights immersion, it ought to be the one with the Dungeons & Dragons license. Was that such a unrealistic expectation? I think not and yet I was very wrong. This isn't a RPG, it is a Hack & Slash. Cryptic should have bought and used the "Golden Axe" license instead of soiling the Neverwinter name. If I wanted to play Diablo, I would play Diablo.
I have no feeling of immersion, behind the pretty locations and a thin veneer of fantasy setting this game feels as much as really being in another world as Tetris does. It is all just about clicking buttons and about numbers.
No free roaming, no real overarching storyline (just because the name of that female Lich gets mentioned here and there doesn't give me the feeling of working on achieving a bigger goal while being send to those different and separated game reservations to kill Zombies or Daemons or Spiders), all there is is the hunt for XP and the next level and those annoying boss fights that really manage to be boring and infuriating at the same time.
(Also a question: Do I even have a chance of playing this game alone in higher levels? It seems next to impossible to befriend people you don't already know in real life. All the people I tried to contact either ignored me or turned out to be Italians/French/Spaniards who don't speak English. I waited hours at the entrance of dungeons, telling "the zone" that I need a party and I always end up doing those dungeons with 1 or 2 people that I can't talk to and that are barely leveled high enough to succeed.)
If I get any response to this complaint, it will probably be one of the "well, you're wrong in this game, go somewhere else"-kind and normally I don't complain when I consider such an objection valid, but it isn't really valid here. I shouldn't be wrong in a Dungeons & Dragons game. The people who only want to grind and to prove something to themselves by dropping bosses left and right should be wrong here. They should be playing "Street Fighter the MMO" or something like that, while people like me should be exploring the vast, wondrous world of the Forgotten Realms and have real adventures and role playing.
You know what I always find funny about these sorts of posts is that it clearly only addresses the posters concerns or ideals. So you don't look at the game as a challenge because your real life offers you enough. Okay fine, but not everyone has that mentality so you are wanting to what? Scold those who do have that mentality? You want to try to avoid people telling you that neverwinter isn't the game for you and you should go elsewhere but you want to tell them the same thing for their mentality. You haven't won anything with that argument at all.
My question to you is, what exactly are you exploring? There is only so much content even if you include foundry to "explore". You do one dungeon it is always the same dungeon every visit. So how exactly do you "explore" a dungeon you have done a dozen times? Oh maybe you never actually get through the dungeon because you are holding up your party to look at the shiny thing on the dungeon wall boring them to death waiting for you.
There are many IPs out there that could easily be turned into Hack&Slay-MMOs for people who enjoy grinding and fighting all the time, but this is likely to stay the only MMO that has the Dungeons & Dragons/Forgotten Realms/Neverwinter name attached to it.
This is the one licensed IP game that could and should have given people like me what we wish for and instead people who have so much more to chose from were pandered to some more. Like I said, I'm not blaming those gamers, I'm blaming the people who took the D&D license and turned it into a game that only resembles D&D at the surface, but not in its gameplay or substance.
Is it unreasonable to be angry about that by me? Or am I being greedy for wanting one MMO for people like me?
I don't think so.
When I make a reservation at a restaurant that is called "Bob's Steakhouse" because I want some good steak and then I arrive there and it turns out "Bob's Steakhouse" is really a sushi bar and doesn't serve steak, then I think I have a right to be annoyed. That doesn't mean that I am angry at people who like sushi.
If you were in such a situation, would you appreciate other patrons telling you "what they always find funny" about people being annoyed by finding a sushi bar instead of a steak house?
To summarize my position: The IP of Dungeons&Dragons/Forgotten Realms/Neverwinter stands for archetypal, classical fantasy role playing and adventure. A MMO that uses this IP ought to be one that is heavy on the RPG and adventure elements. That is not a expectation I would have of a "Golden Axe" or a "Warcraft" or even a "LOTR" IP game, but it is a reasonable expectation to have of a game based on D&D.
It is also not unreasonable to be disappointed and angry because this game might have been the one chance to get the kind of game I was hoping for. The chance of there ever being another Neverwinter MMORPG are basically zero now that this game exists. And for what? So people who like this kind of game, who have dozens of other games like this to chose from can have some more of what they already got in abundance.
To go back to that restaurant analogy: Now imagine "Bob's Steakhouse" would be the only steakhouse in the world....
That would suck for people who like steak, wouldn't it?
Yes, Cryptic and this game objectively, not just subjectively took something away from me and just because other people don't feel that way, doesn't mean my whining is unfounded.
Lanaya@meeggtoast 13.4 BiS GWF
Shendelzare@meeggtoast 11.2k CN mule CW
Server: Dragon
Stream: meeggtoast
Guide: Meeggtoast's Destroyer Dps Guide
Sorry PW, but your game NEEDS SOME LOVIN' and ATTENTION!
I am sure you will get this answer a lot, but your best choice is to join an English speaking Guild that fits your requirements. The Guild search engine is actually quite decent.
it is a legit tactic, without doubt. However, it don't feel very epic to run in circles with 30 mobs behind you.
A GF that doesn't know who to pull back mobs using tab skill
TR that focuses solely on the boss while their party dies around them.
CW and GWF that don't use CC skills properly.
but mostly from what I have seen. Clerics that: stand still, don't use sun burst, are only using astral shield, and don't use at wills to increase there divinity.
T2 is relatively easy to do if you have other people that know how to play their class, but with random squads and people speaking different languages it's next to impossible in random squads.
2) Don't stand in the red stuff
3) Find out if that boss has any special quirks, or needs special tactics (like the spellplague boss, where shoving is an intended core mechanic, and you have to keep trash away from the boss, or he makes them invulnerable). Execute those tactics.
4) Don't stand in the red stuff.
5) If you're standing in red stuff, move. If you see red stuff appear while you're in the middle of a long cast, move anyway. Even if you're a CW casting Steal Time, and moving wastes the cooldown, move anyway. You will get a new cooldown in a few seconds, but only if you're still alive.
6) Don't stand in the red stuff.
Most of the boss fights aren't hard. A few require actual tactics, which you need to execute- eg. the end bosses of Spellplague and Frozen Heart, and to a more limited extent, Spider.
There are a few actually hard bosses, the Beholder guy (whose name I forget) in CN has adds that hurt a lot if you don't cheese him, and the risk/reward makes people unwilling to do it properly, as it's not really a fun fight. The Dracolich fight at the end of CN is really annoying without a pair of CWs, too, so people tend to stack those in order to better collect magic underpants. Other than that, the bosses are pretty easy, with a minimally competent group.
Obviously, that last bit is important. If your DC thinks he's playing a priest in WoW, and is stacking all his heals on the GF, then you're gonna have a wipey time. Boss fights in this game work differently. Often you just leave a TR on the boss, and pop a seal up to keep the TR topped off- bosses are mostly punchbags with big HP pools, the challenge being to deplete the pool before the adds eat you. The real fight, and thus where the bulk of the action and healing needs to be, is generally fighting those stupid waves of adds. It's amazing how many people haven't noticed this, expecting the mechanic to be identical to games like WoW/SWTOR and older bredren, and seem to lack the observational skills to overcome their preconceptions.
I do agree that the endless trash waves on bosses are a boring mechanic, and that the boss fights could be a lot more interesting, but with the exceptions outlined above, it's mostly just zergable, if people know how to play their classes to a reasonable extent*.
* Many don't. You'd be amazed how many Renegade specced CWs you see, single target plinking away at mobs and doing no CC at all, for example, or DCs trying to heal the group using only Soothing Light, etc..
Good post and all but you forgot to mention its really important that people dodge the red stuff on the ground..
I dont think the bosses are too difficult. After you do your first dungeon run at lvl 15ish you have basically seen all this game has to offer in terms of fight mechanics: manage adds and dps boss.
I do think the bosses' hp could be decreased a bit. As other posters have said, 15-20min fights where a single misstep means death get a little draining.
Also, from my perspective as a cw, i think adds need to do a bit less dmg or not spawn as fast. I normally with another cw and in some fights if we dont almost constantly back-to-back singularity one of so is going to get surrounded and killed by the adds.
The biggest "difficulty" issue, imo, is people quitting mid run. While pugging, i normally have a success rate of 1/3 runs completed b/c people always quit, for whatever reason.
T2 dungeons need to be designed better then they currently are... The trash is so trivial compared to the difficulty of the boss fight at the end of the dungeon. You spend X amount of time clearing the dungeon and get stone walled by the boss every time I PUG a T2 dungeon. It's a terrible design that is extremely frustrating!
******, I knew that something had slipped my mind!
There are a lot of really hopeless GFs, who don't understand that they're there to gather adds, and also do decent damage. The game design is such that leaving them out for another CW, a GWF or a TR is often more efficient, though. I suppose that's what you're getting at- the trinity seems to be present in the game, but doesn't really work in dungeons?
You win a couple of nearly-new internets then
Edit: wait.. you said that you have trouble CCing the mobs, even when there are two CWs? You're not doing anywhere near enough CC then. With the exception of the Dracolich fight, and maybe the end of Spellplague, a single CW should be just fine. You really need to look at your spec and rotation, if you can't solo CW the majority of the game.
I agree with you, though I am also aware that I have quit two groups in the last week. The first was an Epic Spellplague where the CW didn't use Singularity, Shield Pulse or even repel mobs at all- so were were dragging all the trash to the bridge like bellends while he cast Magic Space Potato and then died from standing in red stuff. I asked him five times, politely, on different pulls to actually use some proper CC. He then angrily told me that he didn't have Repulsion or Arcane Singularity because the DPS wasn't good enough on them. Given that I was on a GWF which dinged 60 about an hour earlier, and I was doing roughly 50% more damage than him, this seemed like poor justification at best. I didn't fancy trying to do the last boss of the instance with no proper CC or push. Thus, leaving was a pragmatic way to save time and potions, as there was no way that the group would succeed in that instance, with that CW.
The second one was an Epic PK, where the DC was trying to heal the group entirely using soothing light, the second divine at-will. This burns divinity, and heals single targets only.. So he was able to (eventually) heal a single target a bit, for a couple of seconds, before his divinity ran out, and he'd have to build it up. Of course, he also didn't seem to use Sun Burst at all, so this took a while.
The net effect was that he was less useful than the white cleric minipet, as I discovered during the first boss fight, which we did with potions and graveyard zerging only.
Now, that group didn't have a CW, and the last boss is a fairly add-heavy fight. I'm normally fine with that, as my GWF can aoe tank the mobs fairly easily if there's an Astral Shield to stand in. However, this DC didn't seem to cast Astral Shield. Ever. The only things he seemed to use were Soothing Light and Lance Of Faith. I therefore took the decision that even if we did batter our way to the last boss with zero healing, burning countless stacks of pots as we went, we wouldn't be able to kill him, and were basically screwed.
Thus, after asking the cleric a few times to.. you know, heal people, I left that group, too, as it was doomed, and no-one could even get a response from the DC.
So, leaving is sometimes unavoidable. I am not the sort of person who leaves after a few wipes- but if you are in a situation where there is literally no scope for improvement through refining team tactics.. well, you have to know when to fold
Just want to say that sunburst is not required. Not a game breaker at all.
If you're getting enough divinity and AP to keep casting Astral Shield whenever it's cooled, and Hallowed Ground just before it drops most of the time, no. However, it's such a useful skill that you'd have to have a pretty amazing reason not to use it in PvE, as it takes the pressure right off a busy DC in a T2.
So, what's your revelatory rotation, and how much recovery do you stack for it?
no they aren't at the correct level at all... the dungeons are typically easy until you get to the end bosses and then its like going from level 59 in PvP to level 60 in PvP ... when running the non-boss fights I've been in groups that appeared to never take damage and never needed healing help, once into the final bosses everyone can be killed in an instant and there is nothing that can be done about it when such stuff as tentacles lash out and one hit kill ... just like in PvP I bet it isn't hard if your group is pre-made and everyone is running top geared equipment but that still doesn't make the boss and non-boss areas even close to being properly balanced