There's no war paper could beat rock, rock would crash through paper!!!
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arendhelMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
I agree with the OP instead of complaining about the balance (which can be improved of course), learn how to play the pvp mode.. kills are not everything in neverwinter's pvp... most of the time I find my self running from point to point trying to capture them alone since the other players doesn't seem to care about it and are more focused on killing eachother :S
Please please please stop complaining that pvp is unbalanced and that characters need to be nerfed or buffed right now. You are legitimately going to ruin the game. The problem right now isn't that certain classes are overpowered or underpowered. The problem right now is that there is currently no meta.
This games pvp is set up in a 5v5 arena style format. The main objective in the game is to control domination points, not to get kills. What this does is it gives pvp the potential to have extreme team coordination. That gives each individual class/ character a role to accomplish in order to bring your team success. Right now considering the game has only been out for a short time, everyones mentality is the same no matter what character they play. It's "run to taken objectives and get as many kills as possible while doing so." But the thing is situationally not all of the classes are made to do that. Let's go over class personal objectives in pvp so that we can be on the same page. These are all my opinions based off of my personal experiences playing every class.
Objectives for classes
Rogue- Everyone is saying that the rogue is overpowered right now because he does way to much single target damage. What people aren't realizing is that was what the rogue is DESIGNED to do. The rogue is the attack damage carry of neverwinter. In a team fight situation, the rogues job is to focus priority targets such as the opposing teams rogue or control wizard. The rogue should bounce back and forth between their domination point and middle taking out targets as it goes. And that right there is exactly why people think rogues are overpowered right now in pvp. Because in a chaotic situation with no coordination, it's a glass cannon winning 1v1 situations over and over.
Control Wizard- Another class that everyone feels is overpowered. Their reasoning is because of the amount of survivability the control wizard has coupled with his damage potential and crowd control. But again look at the big picture. The control wizard is your magic damage carry of neverwinter. With the potential to do aoe crowd controls and damage, as well as decent single target burst damage, the control wizard is perfect for taking out high priority targets such as the opposing rogue/ control wizard. The control wizard also has the potential lead teams through fights by prioritizing targets with its spells. Like the rogue, the control wizard should be bouncing between their domination point and middle, taking out targets as it goes.
Cleric- From what I've heard, the community feels that clerics are balanced. I feel that this is a result of the fact that clerics do mediocre damage, can focus on sustaining people, and sustain themselves making them tanky. When i personally play cleric, I like to go full healer. But tapping into the damaging spells, you can pull off some decent damage potential with a cleric. Now when clerics end up in a 1v1 situation and lose to a rogue or mage, WHAT THE HELL DID U EXPECT? Do u legitimately feel that a cleric should beat a rogue or wizard in a 1v1 situation? And if you do, what the hell is wrong with you? As a full healing cleric, when I see a rogue with full health coming onto my domination point, I just keep myself sustained with heals while yelling at my teammates to come help me. But if nobody comes, eventually I'll get taken out. And that's the way it should be. In a teamfight situation, I'm sustaining my entire team with heals and helping to do some damage to priority targets. As a cleric, you're basically a control wizard sacrificing low cooldown crowd control spells for heals, as well as some damage. STAY WITH YOUR TEAMMATES.
Guardian Fighter- The tank. Another class that the community seems to be saying is balanced. As a guardian fighter in pvp, your main role is to hold objectives. Guardian fighters with their immense defense can stay contesting an objective for a long time. That makes them ideal for holding mid. They can sit mid while their team is wiping and wait for them to come back all the while just contesting the objective. Also as a guardian fighter, you can peel rogues or slayers off your carries, or help to stunlock the mage all the while holding your objective. In a 1v1 situation, the guardian fighter is actually pretty strong, and as I said earlier can sustain against its enemy while waiting for its teammates to come assist. Since its mostly a defensive class, that's what it should prioritize. DEFENSE. Mid as a top priority holding it while your teammates bounce between your base and mid.
Great Weapon Fighter- This is my favorite class to play by far. With my great weapon fighter I have literally won about 90% of my non-premade pvp matches no exaggeration. Now reading that, I almost guarantee almost every single one of you laughed or doubted me. That's because the community feels that the great weapon fighter is underpowered. Everyone feels that the great weapon fighter needs to be buffed. I'm here telling you that that's because you're playing it wrong. The great weapon fighter is basically the bruiser of your team. Sacrificing high sustainable damage for mediocre sustain with finishing bursts and single target crowd control is what you have with your great weapon fighter. In a teamfight situation, he helps to offtank some of the damage through his tab power and brings a little damage to the table. But the great weapon fighters real potential lies in his ability to contest the opposing team's base. I've literally laughed as I've beaten a ridiculous amount of games through this method. Why is the great weapon fighter so good at this? Let me explain.
The great weapon fighter has the highest mobility of all the classes. He gains this through sacrificing his ability to dodge. This makes the great weapon fighter almost impossible to catch. When you start to get low, you just say well hey i'm going to press tab, be immune to your crowd controls, use my jump to clear a huge gap, and then sprint ridiculously far away from you, either to a potion or to my cleric. This is literally step by step how i play my great weapon fighter. I just sit in the opposing teams base constantly holding it or contesting it. If one person comes to fight me then they're are permanently stuck having to deal with me, helping to relieve the pressure on my teams base (which by the way is the easiest to gain control of again because all 4 teammates respawn close to it).
I just fight them until i get low or kill them, then run and grab a pot so i can head back and continue to hold their base. Now if multiple people come to take me down, even if all 5 come to take me down, i use my daily to buy myself time by jumping into the air, and continue to hold and take damage until i get low, and then juke all 5 of them for a potion. Meanwhile since all 5 people are wasting their time trying to kill me, my team has taken our base and mid and is pushing into the opposing team's base to assist me in controlling the whole map. Using this method my score is usually pretty low on the score chart, but my win to loss ratio is stupid ridiculous. Now if they were to buff the great weapon fighters damage? lol I'd probably never lose a pvp match again.
So what I'm trying to make clear here is that I personally feel that all of the classes in this game are balanced. Like I said it's not that classes are imbalanced, but that there hasn't been a meta developed for the game yet. Please stop complaining about buffing or nerfing classes because you are going to ruin the game if you continue to do that. Rogues are going to end up being useless, or great weapon fighters are going to end up being way to strong, etc. If there is anything you would like to discuss I'm more than happy to do that with you and please comment below. Also if you would like me to defend my case through visual means, feel free to watch my stream at:
twitch.tv/finallyfaded
Hit me up with a comment and then I'll answer your question/ show you in game proof through via livestream. As far as cryptic studios or perfect world is concerned, there are a few things I would like to suggest if I could get one of you to comment on here. Things that I feel would make pvp lean towards having a stronger meta and help this game get into the competitive scene. :cool: thanks guys!
I completely agree with the op here. The reason so many people are complaining is because PvP is unforgiving to bad players and people who don't understand the objectives. The balance is actually amazing imo. They have done a very good job with this.
Yes, the pvp is totally unbalanced classes have no real function, I have a tank that beats too, and can have 60k + on a hit of a rogue, the game CC is absurd. You go into a rotation of CC and awaits death.
Everyone knows this, that PvP is not right, stop getting the wrong idea and support help define the negative aspects so that they can be improved. Stop getting protecting the development team, you will not gain AD to support the wrong idea.
Tell me dear friend in what universe can a rogue/thief/ assassin
One shot heavy armor bearers ? Tell me in what world can a rogue do more damage with his normal
Attacks (holding a dagger) than a warrior holding a blade that weights 25 kilos and is 2 meters long?
Anyway in every logical universe rogues do situational dmg by backstabing and they are a hit and run
Kind of class .. By saying that a heavy armor class needs to run like a chicken to be valiable then your whole point is a big HAMSTER**** ..
You are 100% right.
But 100% off topic.
The thread is about PvP mechanics and not RPG or realism.
Control Wizard- Another class that everyone feels is overpowered. Their reasoning is because of the amount of survivability the control wizard has coupled with his damage potential and crowd control. But again look at the big picture. The control wizard is your magic damage carry of neverwinter. With the potential to do aoe crowd controls and damage, as well as decent single target burst damage, the control wizard is perfect for taking out high priority targets such as the opposing rogue/ control wizard. The control wizard also has the potential lead teams through fights by prioritizing targets with its spells. Like the rogue, the control wizard should be bouncing between their domination point and middle, taking out targets as it goes.
The control wizard doesn't do "decent single target burst damage". He does as much, if not more than, the rogue. And even if his damage output is slightly lower, he does it all while making it so that the opponent can't move. All the rogue's abilities on the other hand require the opponent to be standing still or fighting someone else. I would be fine if they had amazing ranged DPS or amazing control capabilities, but they have both, and it's ridiculous.
I can only disagree with his "Control Wizard" section. The Control Wizards main function is definitely not supposed to be DPS. It's meant to be crowd control. Hence the name "Control Wizard". But what Cryptic/PWE has done here, is they haven't released the DPS Wizard yet, and this is the main problem with people and being the Control Wizard.
People who love Mages for their massive DPS, are horribly mistaken on what "role" a "Control Wizard" should play. That being said, all the b_tching in closed beta has increased the Control Wizards dmg, because people wanted a Wizard that could deal damage, but nothing like that has come out yet. Now, what people are failing to realize here. Is that when you add a 5 second choke hold in PvP, ON TOP of a substitute "Main Wizard DPS" class, is that, you're able to kill someone without them even getting close.
This has forced classes that can get destroyed in about 6 seconds such as the rogue to use "Cheap" tactics on Control Wizard, using stealth, and "Lashing Strike" which auto-crits while in stealth, dealing almost a killing blow to them. Thus raising the uproar of a "Rogue" and how they're unbalanced, and do too much damage. I'm willing to bet the majority of the Rogue b_tching is due to control wizards getting owned, because Rogue's found a way to "Counter" them so a Control Wizard class can't insta-kill them. And I'm also willing to bet that all the Control Wizard B_tching is due to Rogues, and being pretty much insta-killed by a Control Wizard.
I'm sorry, but no matter how much you try and push the Control Wizard on me as being "balanced", it's simply not "supposed" to be a major DPS class. That is the role of a Sorcerer, which as I've stated, has not been released yet, which is why the Control Wizard is doing massive amounts of damage.
If my predictions are right, which they most likely are, and will be (yes, I'm cocky, and maybe wrong). As soon as the main DPS mage comes out, Control Wizards are going to take a nasty dive in DPS, and then PWE is going to come along and say, "Yeah, Control Wizard was a substitute! Because BETA!".
Rogue- Everyone is saying that the rogue is overpowered right now because he does way to much single target damage. What people aren't realizing is that was what the rogue is DESIGNED to do. The rogue is the attack damage carry of neverwinter. In a team fight situation, the rogues job is to focus priority targets such as the opposing teams rogue or control wizard. The rogue should bounce back and forth between their domination point and middle taking out targets as it goes. And that right there is exactly why people think rogues are overpowered right now in pvp. Because in a chaotic situation with no coordination, it's a glass cannon winning 1v1 situations over and over.
No. No. No. No. No. I'm so tired of this excuse and complete dismissal of what the real problem is. Yes, Rogues should do heavy damage. Yes, they should have escape abilities. However they cannot have both damage, escape AND high health and armor! No one says Rogues shouldn't do the damage they do but not while taking as much damage as a GWF! They should go down like a sack of rocks if caught in the open or not played right. As it stands right now they are front line brawlers, not sneaky assassins.
Cleric is rubbish in PvP you get stun locked your always first target and the heals are rubbish, may as well be no healer in PvP with the amount of damage verse healing as its useless. Place a seal throw a couple of heals and dead. Although this is level 28 not tried 60. I think healers in general need something changing in this game as there not fun to play.
No. No. No. No. No. I'm so tired of this excuse and complete dismissal of what the real problem is. Yes, Rogues should do heavy damage. Yes, they should have escape abilities. However they cannot have both damage, escape AND high health and armor! No one says Rogues shouldn't do the damage they do but not while taking as much damage as a GWF! They should go down like a sack if rocks if caught in the open or not played right. As it stands right now they are front line brawlers, not sneaky assassins.
Rogues don't have high health and armor, what the hell are you talking about? If a Rogue is escaping fights with you it's because he has dumped tons of points into speed and dodging feats. Our health is extremely low and most rogues have terrible defense because we stack everything into power. The only reason rogues can be "front-line brawlers" is if there's no competent CW on your team.
Cleric is rubbish in PvP you get stun locked your always first target and the heals are rubbish, may as well be no healer in PvP with the amount of damage verse healing as its useless. Place a seal throw a couple of heals and dead. Although this is level 28 not tried 60. I think healers in general need something changing in this game as there not fun to play.
I'm lvl 58 and can tell you that the game changes dramatically for clerics the higher you get. I fought a cleric one on one and he killed me outlasting me. By the time the fight was over I was dead and the cleric was at 3/4 health. I've seen them in this bracket only go down when you have at least two people on them but in a group fight with people targeting you while you are trying to kill the cleric, it's near impossible unless your team has a cleric too. They are game changers in the higher brackets.
Rogues don't have high health and armor, what the hell are you talking about? If a Rogue is escaping fights with you it's because he has dumped tons of points into speed and dodging feats. Our health is extremely low and most rogues have terrible defense because we stack everything into power. The only reason rogues can be "front-line brawlers" is if there's no competent CW on your team.
Yet I've seen several in the 50 lvl PVp brackets kill players while being targeted by two enemy players, then still escaping with at least 1/4 health. How can that be? I've fought them 1v1 with my CW, dropped every nuke I have on them and watch them still get away with half health. Explain that to me. My cousin plays a GWF and he is an above average player and can't stand toe to toe with one because for some reason, this so called glass cannon class outlasts him!? Nah bro, they need their base health cut by at least 20%.
Please please please stop complaining that pvp is unbalanced and that characters need to be nerfed or buffed right now. You are legitimately going to ruin the game. The problem right now isn't that certain classes are overpowered or underpowered. The problem right now is that there is currently no meta.
This games pvp is set up in a 5v5 arena style format. The main objective in the game is to control domination points, not to get kills. What this does is it gives pvp the potential to have extreme team coordination. That gives each individual class/ character a role to accomplish in order to bring your team success. Right now considering the game has only been out for a short time, everyones mentality is the same no matter what character they play. It's "run to taken objectives and get as many kills as possible while doing so." But the thing is situationally not all of the classes are made to do that. Let's go over class personal objectives in pvp so that we can be on the same page. These are all my opinions based off of my personal experiences playing every class.
Objectives for classes
Rogue- Everyone is saying that the rogue is overpowered right now because he does way to much single target damage. What people aren't realizing is that was what the rogue is DESIGNED to do. The rogue is the attack damage carry of neverwinter. In a team fight situation, the rogues job is to focus priority targets such as the opposing teams rogue or control wizard. The rogue should bounce back and forth between their domination point and middle taking out targets as it goes. And that right there is exactly why people think rogues are overpowered right now in pvp. Because in a chaotic situation with no coordination, it's a glass cannon winning 1v1 situations over and over.
Control Wizard- Another class that everyone feels is overpowered. Their reasoning is because of the amount of survivability the control wizard has coupled with his damage potential and crowd control. But again look at the big picture. The control wizard is your magic damage carry of neverwinter. With the potential to do aoe crowd controls and damage, as well as decent single target burst damage, the control wizard is perfect for taking out high priority targets such as the opposing rogue/ control wizard. The control wizard also has the potential lead teams through fights by prioritizing targets with its spells. Like the rogue, the control wizard should be bouncing between their domination point and middle, taking out targets as it goes.
Cleric- From what I've heard, the community feels that clerics are balanced. I feel that this is a result of the fact that clerics do mediocre damage, can focus on sustaining people, and sustain themselves making them tanky. When i personally play cleric, I like to go full healer. But tapping into the damaging spells, you can pull off some decent damage potential with a cleric. Now when clerics end up in a 1v1 situation and lose to a rogue or mage, WHAT THE HELL DID U EXPECT? Do u legitimately feel that a cleric should beat a rogue or wizard in a 1v1 situation? And if you do, what the hell is wrong with you? As a full healing cleric, when I see a rogue with full health coming onto my domination point, I just keep myself sustained with heals while yelling at my teammates to come help me. But if nobody comes, eventually I'll get taken out. And that's the way it should be. In a teamfight situation, I'm sustaining my entire team with heals and helping to do some damage to priority targets. As a cleric, you're basically a control wizard sacrificing low cooldown crowd control spells for heals, as well as some damage. STAY WITH YOUR TEAMMATES.
Guardian Fighter- The tank. Another class that the community seems to be saying is balanced. As a guardian fighter in pvp, your main role is to hold objectives. Guardian fighters with their immense defense can stay contesting an objective for a long time. That makes them ideal for holding mid. They can sit mid while their team is wiping and wait for them to come back all the while just contesting the objective. Also as a guardian fighter, you can peel rogues or slayers off your carries, or help to stunlock the mage all the while holding your objective. In a 1v1 situation, the guardian fighter is actually pretty strong, and as I said earlier can sustain against its enemy while waiting for its teammates to come assist. Since its mostly a defensive class, that's what it should prioritize. DEFENSE. Mid as a top priority holding it while your teammates bounce between your base and mid.
Great Weapon Fighter- This is my favorite class to play by far. With my great weapon fighter I have literally won about 90% of my non-premade pvp matches no exaggeration. Now reading that, I almost guarantee almost every single one of you laughed or doubted me. That's because the community feels that the great weapon fighter is underpowered. Everyone feels that the great weapon fighter needs to be buffed. I'm here telling you that that's because you're playing it wrong. The great weapon fighter is basically the bruiser of your team. Sacrificing high sustainable damage for mediocre sustain with finishing bursts and single target crowd control is what you have with your great weapon fighter. In a teamfight situation, he helps to offtank some of the damage through his tab power and brings a little damage to the table. But the great weapon fighters real potential lies in his ability to contest the opposing team's base. I've literally laughed as I've beaten a ridiculous amount of games through this method. Why is the great weapon fighter so good at this? Let me explain.
The great weapon fighter has the highest mobility of all the classes. He gains this through sacrificing his ability to dodge. This makes the great weapon fighter almost impossible to catch. When you start to get low, you just say well hey i'm going to press tab, be immune to your crowd controls, use my jump to clear a huge gap, and then sprint ridiculously far away from you, either to a potion or to my cleric. This is literally step by step how i play my great weapon fighter. I just sit in the opposing teams base constantly holding it or contesting it. If one person comes to fight me then they're are permanently stuck having to deal with me, helping to relieve the pressure on my teams base (which by the way is the easiest to gain control of again because all 4 teammates respawn close to it).
I just fight them until i get low or kill them, then run and grab a pot so i can head back and continue to hold their base. Now if multiple people come to take me down, even if all 5 come to take me down, i use my daily to buy myself time by jumping into the air, and continue to hold and take damage until i get low, and then juke all 5 of them for a potion. Meanwhile since all 5 people are wasting their time trying to kill me, my team has taken our base and mid and is pushing into the opposing team's base to assist me in controlling the whole map. Using this method my score is usually pretty low on the score chart, but my win to loss ratio is stupid ridiculous. Now if they were to buff the great weapon fighters damage? lol I'd probably never lose a pvp match again.
So what I'm trying to make clear here is that I personally feel that all of the classes in this game are balanced. Like I said it's not that classes are imbalanced, but that there hasn't been a meta developed for the game yet. Please stop complaining about buffing or nerfing classes because you are going to ruin the game if you continue to do that. Rogues are going to end up being useless, or great weapon fighters are going to end up being way to strong, etc. If there is anything you would like to discuss I'm more than happy to do that with you and please comment below. Also if you would like me to defend my case through visual means, feel free to watch my stream at:
twitch.tv/finallyfaded
Hit me up with a comment and then I'll answer your question/ show you in game proof through via livestream. As far as cryptic studios or perfect world is concerned, there are a few things I would like to suggest if I could get one of you to comment on here. Things that I feel would make pvp lean towards having a stronger meta and help this game get into the competitive scene. :cool: thanks guys!
I'm sorry but i still think that at level 60 with having full epic gear and 11.5k gear score, that a Rogue should not be able to 2 hit a Tank with 30k HP.
No. No. No. No. No. I'm so tired of this excuse and complete dismissal of what the real problem is. Yes, Rogues should do heavy damage. Yes, they should have escape abilities. However they cannot have both damage, escape AND high health and armor! No one says Rogues shouldn't do the damage they do but not while taking as much damage as a GWF! They should go down like a sack of rocks if caught in the open or not played right. As it stands right now they are front line brawlers, not sneaky assassins.
Well said.. Couldn't agree more.. I have a GWF and i can't outlast a rogue in 1vs1
He silences for like 5 sec and then opens that cloak of shadows like ability which deflects
with 100% chance every dmg i do, then he silencesagain and he one shot me
for 50% of my health..
Yet I've seen several in the 50 lvl PVp brackets kill players while being targeted by two enemy players, then still escaping with at least 1/4 health. How can that be? I've fought them 1v1 with my CW, dropped every nuke I have on them and watch them still get away with half health. Explain that to me. My cousin plays a GWF and he is an above average player and can't stand toe to toe with one because for some reason, this so called glass cannon class outlasts him!? Nah bro, they need their base health cut by at least 20%.
Your anecdotal evidence doesn't mean anything. Rogues do not have high defense or armor. Period. It's a fact of the class. We have higher armor than cloth-wearing wizards, sure, but no where near the survivability of any other class. GWF is an off-tank with good abilities and hitting multiple mobs. He is not a single target DPS class, and therefore should lose to them if he'd dumb enough to wander into a fair fight with one.
Unless you're suggesting that rogues need more tanking abilities and some decent AOE because...then I'd take the health loss.
Well said.. Couldn't agree more.. I have a GWF and i can't outlast a rogue in 1vs1
He silences for like 5 sec and then opens that cloak of shadows like ability which deflects
with 100% chance every dmg i do, then he silencesagain and he one shot me
for 50% of my health..
Why should you be able to outlast a rogue 1v1. Are you a single-target DPS class? Is that literally the only role you can fulfill? No?
Why should you be able to outlast a rogue 1v1. Are you a single-target DPS class? Is that literally the only role you can fulfill? No?
Then you should be losing those fights.
Says who? U? In every d&d i played rogue is not a duelist. But in this game noone can stand in 1 vs 1 against a rogue .
If i defend a point alone and a rogue comes im doomed.
Rogues are assassins but someone in cryptic decide to turn rogues into super buffed bruisers with stealth .
Says who? U? In every d&d i played rogue is not a duelist. But in this game noone can stand in 1 vs 1 against a rogue .
If i defend a point alone and a rogue comes im doomed.
Rogues are assassins but someone in cryptic decide to turn rogues into super buffed bruisers with stealth .
This isn't the pen-and-paper game. How rogues function in proper DnD isn't really relevant. The class structure in an MMO works differently by necessity. That being said, I have another issue with what you're saying. Namely in your understanding of what an "assassin" is. You're complaining that in a 1v1 fight you'd lose against a rogue, but isn't that essentially what an assassin should be like? Assassins don't excel at taking out multiple enemies. They excel at taking out one.
Hypothetically, let's say that you could easily take on a rogue in a fair, 1v1 fight. What then would their purpose be? Their control and AOE capabilities are weak, they can't tank, they can't heal, and they have very little skills based around attacking multiple enemies. As it stands, rogues have good escaping capabilities and superior damage output. Take one of those away and you're left with...what?
Also your goal isn't usually to kill, it's to defend.
You can very easily hold your own against a rogue and a CW if you wisely keep them in front of you. Not for very long, I admit. But again, killing isn't the goal in that situation.
For example, if there's a tough team fight going on at mid, i might peel off and go cap the enemy's home node.
Guess who comes to stop me?
The only two classes who effectively can.
They might kill me, but I've bought the time needed to take the lead and get a nice cushiony lead.
We don't have tons of defense, but we have enough to do the job.
Provided you block.
Learn to block... Are you mentally HAMSTER? If you think someone playing gf at 60 doesn't know how to block then I think you should stop typing in the forums.
You can't "block" when a rogue throws down smoke or when being silenced or when CW is CC'ing you for seconds. Dont act like I don't know how to play my GF in pvp *****.
OP is full of HAMSTER on this one, prolly another "real" TR in disguise as it is usually the case when you see people say that GWF are solid and very good in pvp "if they do this or that" uhuh.
Nothing will change, how ever many post people try to prove to the contrary lets just prove them wrong once and for all, how many whines you see of TR or CW in this forum about them being underpowered?
Case closed.
But please, live in your fantasy world where pvp is totally ok and not broken beyond belief in this game!
So your solution is to break PvE so you can PvP with absolute certainty? No. You see, unlike other games that I've actually played, PvP isn't the primary focus. You're playing a title that's supposed to be D&D expecting to get it balanced for what amounts to an afterthought as far as the actual game is concerned, PvP. The problem is, while "balancing" for PvP, you break PvE. PvE should be the main focus of this game, as well as teamwork, this is what D&D has been about since it's inception. If this isn't meeting your standards for PvP, I'd suggest it's because it's not supposed to.
Reading comprehension is essential in a medium that requires reading for communication.
Quote Originally Posted by hexagar View Post
Tell me dear friend in what universe can a rogue/thief/ assassin
One shot heavy armor bearers ? Tell me in what world can a rogue do more damage with his normal
Attacks (holding a dagger) than a warrior holding a blade that weights 25 kilos and is 2 meters long?
Anyway in every logical universe rogues do situational dmg by backstabing and they are a hit and run
Kind of class .. By saying that a heavy armor class needs to run like a chicken to be valiable then your whole point is a big HAMSTER**** ..
So your solution is to break PvE so you can PvP with absolute certainty? No. You see, unlike other games that I've actually played, PvP isn't the primary focus. You're playing a title that's supposed to be D&D expecting to get it balanced for what amounts to an afterthought as far as the actual game is concerned, PvP. The problem is, while "balancing" for PvP, you break PvE. PvE should be the main focus of this game, as well as teamwork, this is what D&D has been about since it's inception. If this isn't meeting your standards for PvP, I'd suggest it's because it's not supposed to.
I don't think so i guess devs can balance PVP without breaking PVE
But problem is not the BALANCE... problem is MATCHMAKING...
I literally can 3 hit and kill new lvl 60 player with 10k+ GS...
Matchmaking needs tune up, than there won't be any whine on forums about imbalance..
anyways nice post OP.. good luck with flames from n88bs
But problem is not the BALANCE... problem is MATCHMAKING...
I literally can 3 hit and kill new lvl 60 player with 10k+ GS...
Matchmaking needs tune up, than there won't be any whine on forums about imbalance..
anyways nice post OP.. good luck with flames from n88bs
They should optimize Matchmaking filtering by both level and GS
PS.: Do you know that calling 'em noobs don't make you better than them right? Please watch your manners
THIS thread is literarly making my brain bleed. Honestly do you need a picture? My nose is bleeding.
How can people be so stupid (waiting for an admin to edit that)? HOW can they?
To the original poster: You made a thread i wanted to make, 10 times better. Bravo my friend. I'm gonna pm you my in game name so you can add me. :-)
Ok the OP described everything perfectly but people are playing this game the wrong way and blame it on the devs. I've played RPGS and All nwn and nwn2 , and only a couple of MMOS. This is propably why I am good at this DnD kind-of style game. Although i have less experience in MMOS, i have what i like to call "basic rpg philosophy". Having played hardcore DnD games have greatly helped my gamestyle too. I can't imagine most of you people here being able to handle even the tutorial of the older rpg games if you can't understand this SIMPLE game.
Alright let's start. I'm not gonna exactly teach you HOW to play, I'm just gonna share my personal experience and point out wrong stuff people do all the time.
For starters I play a TR. I'm not the best TR around, but i've seen plenty who suck. i am level 34? And i made a level 47 TR in a guild that did not even know what Armor Penetration is. Bragged about his high critical chance, and whinned about his low crit damage. How do you expect to play this game correctly if you do not even BOTHER to hover your mouse over the stats to see what they do. What does recovery do? What does life steal do? Why have 3 lifesteal items and 3 critical items and 2 armor penetration items? A little of all is bad. A lot of 2 is great! Moving on.
PvP like the OP said is about holding points. I allways finish first with around 5k points, even if i get slaughtered. I've lost matches were my team had the most kills and i've won matches we were getting our butt kicked? How? it's not about fighting it's about taking control points. Control wizards have an awesome spell that blows you away. If you're taking a point as a CW and you're 95% and someone comes all you have to do is blow him away and the point is yours. NO need to kill him? Stop getting OUT of the circle while fighting the percentage if falling. Same goes for all players. All you have to do is take points.
As a TR i've seen GF that i could kill with 2 blows. And others that i could not kill once throught the game. I've seen my *** getting kicked from GWF hard (and it makes sense, it IS a barbarian class). It's about how you play. I've seen wizards spamming their abilities instead of timing them so a combination of 3 +3 +2 (s) of control effects only lasts about 4 seconds..this is bad..
I've seen wizards rooting a target in the ground, me and another rogue are about to deal insane damage to him with blades of fury, and he just blows the target away. WHY? WHY? You do not have to spam spells like crezi and deal damage, you have to use your brain.
All classes are fine, all you have to do is learn to play. And someone here dared to say that TR has more control than CW. People come ON.
I'm doing 30-39 level pvps and people are still unaware their base is being taken. I mean just learn to play please, it's an action based mmo and it's pretty simple. i mean i don't know what else to say. i feel bad for the devs. They get so much **** they do not deserve.
P.S i just love having GWF and GF in my team...much better than 1 rogue 2 clerics 2 wizards..so much better
I don't think so i guess devs can balance PVP without breaking PVE
Really, do share how they are going to reduce damage on some classes for PvP, or CC, or defensive capabilities w/out gimping them for PvE? The short answer is, they're not. The long answer is, they're not, because in order to "fix" the problems, they have to alter the skills, and altering the skills changes them for PvE every bit as much as it does for PvP. Sorry, you can't solo the opposing group on your cleric, an example only, but you're not meant to.
Comments
I completely agree with the op here. The reason so many people are complaining is because PvP is unforgiving to bad players and people who don't understand the objectives. The balance is actually amazing imo. They have done a very good job with this.
Everyone knows this, that PvP is not right, stop getting the wrong idea and support help define the negative aspects so that they can be improved. Stop getting protecting the development team, you will not gain AD to support the wrong idea.
You are 100% right.
But 100% off topic.
The thread is about PvP mechanics and not RPG or realism.
The control wizard doesn't do "decent single target burst damage". He does as much, if not more than, the rogue. And even if his damage output is slightly lower, he does it all while making it so that the opponent can't move. All the rogue's abilities on the other hand require the opponent to be standing still or fighting someone else. I would be fine if they had amazing ranged DPS or amazing control capabilities, but they have both, and it's ridiculous.
People who love Mages for their massive DPS, are horribly mistaken on what "role" a "Control Wizard" should play. That being said, all the b_tching in closed beta has increased the Control Wizards dmg, because people wanted a Wizard that could deal damage, but nothing like that has come out yet. Now, what people are failing to realize here. Is that when you add a 5 second choke hold in PvP, ON TOP of a substitute "Main Wizard DPS" class, is that, you're able to kill someone without them even getting close.
This has forced classes that can get destroyed in about 6 seconds such as the rogue to use "Cheap" tactics on Control Wizard, using stealth, and "Lashing Strike" which auto-crits while in stealth, dealing almost a killing blow to them. Thus raising the uproar of a "Rogue" and how they're unbalanced, and do too much damage. I'm willing to bet the majority of the Rogue b_tching is due to control wizards getting owned, because Rogue's found a way to "Counter" them so a Control Wizard class can't insta-kill them. And I'm also willing to bet that all the Control Wizard B_tching is due to Rogues, and being pretty much insta-killed by a Control Wizard.
I'm sorry, but no matter how much you try and push the Control Wizard on me as being "balanced", it's simply not "supposed" to be a major DPS class. That is the role of a Sorcerer, which as I've stated, has not been released yet, which is why the Control Wizard is doing massive amounts of damage.
If my predictions are right, which they most likely are, and will be (yes, I'm cocky, and maybe wrong). As soon as the main DPS mage comes out, Control Wizards are going to take a nasty dive in DPS, and then PWE is going to come along and say, "Yeah, Control Wizard was a substitute! Because BETA!".
No. No. No. No. No. I'm so tired of this excuse and complete dismissal of what the real problem is. Yes, Rogues should do heavy damage. Yes, they should have escape abilities. However they cannot have both damage, escape AND high health and armor! No one says Rogues shouldn't do the damage they do but not while taking as much damage as a GWF! They should go down like a sack of rocks if caught in the open or not played right. As it stands right now they are front line brawlers, not sneaky assassins.
Rogues don't have high health and armor, what the hell are you talking about? If a Rogue is escaping fights with you it's because he has dumped tons of points into speed and dodging feats. Our health is extremely low and most rogues have terrible defense because we stack everything into power. The only reason rogues can be "front-line brawlers" is if there's no competent CW on your team.
I'm lvl 58 and can tell you that the game changes dramatically for clerics the higher you get. I fought a cleric one on one and he killed me outlasting me. By the time the fight was over I was dead and the cleric was at 3/4 health. I've seen them in this bracket only go down when you have at least two people on them but in a group fight with people targeting you while you are trying to kill the cleric, it's near impossible unless your team has a cleric too. They are game changers in the higher brackets.
Yet I've seen several in the 50 lvl PVp brackets kill players while being targeted by two enemy players, then still escaping with at least 1/4 health. How can that be? I've fought them 1v1 with my CW, dropped every nuke I have on them and watch them still get away with half health. Explain that to me. My cousin plays a GWF and he is an above average player and can't stand toe to toe with one because for some reason, this so called glass cannon class outlasts him!? Nah bro, they need their base health cut by at least 20%.
I'm sorry but i still think that at level 60 with having full epic gear and 11.5k gear score, that a Rogue should not be able to 2 hit a Tank with 30k HP.
Well said.. Couldn't agree more.. I have a GWF and i can't outlast a rogue in 1vs1
He silences for like 5 sec and then opens that cloak of shadows like ability which deflects
with 100% chance every dmg i do, then he silencesagain and he one shot me
for 50% of my health..
Your anecdotal evidence doesn't mean anything. Rogues do not have high defense or armor. Period. It's a fact of the class. We have higher armor than cloth-wearing wizards, sure, but no where near the survivability of any other class. GWF is an off-tank with good abilities and hitting multiple mobs. He is not a single target DPS class, and therefore should lose to them if he'd dumb enough to wander into a fair fight with one.
Unless you're suggesting that rogues need more tanking abilities and some decent AOE because...then I'd take the health loss.
Why should you be able to outlast a rogue 1v1. Are you a single-target DPS class? Is that literally the only role you can fulfill? No?
Then you should be losing those fights.
Says who? U? In every d&d i played rogue is not a duelist. But in this game noone can stand in 1 vs 1 against a rogue .
If i defend a point alone and a rogue comes im doomed.
Rogues are assassins but someone in cryptic decide to turn rogues into super buffed bruisers with stealth .
This isn't the pen-and-paper game. How rogues function in proper DnD isn't really relevant. The class structure in an MMO works differently by necessity. That being said, I have another issue with what you're saying. Namely in your understanding of what an "assassin" is. You're complaining that in a 1v1 fight you'd lose against a rogue, but isn't that essentially what an assassin should be like? Assassins don't excel at taking out multiple enemies. They excel at taking out one.
Hypothetically, let's say that you could easily take on a rogue in a fair, 1v1 fight. What then would their purpose be? Their control and AOE capabilities are weak, they can't tank, they can't heal, and they have very little skills based around attacking multiple enemies. As it stands, rogues have good escaping capabilities and superior damage output. Take one of those away and you're left with...what?
A bit of nostalgia for the old timers.
PVP guide - Keeping it fun with the basics.
Yes the maps are small, imo disable horses for pvp.
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Learn to block... Are you mentally HAMSTER? If you think someone playing gf at 60 doesn't know how to block then I think you should stop typing in the forums.
You can't "block" when a rogue throws down smoke or when being silenced or when CW is CC'ing you for seconds. Dont act like I don't know how to play my GF in pvp *****.
So your solution is to break PvE so you can PvP with absolute certainty? No. You see, unlike other games that I've actually played, PvP isn't the primary focus. You're playing a title that's supposed to be D&D expecting to get it balanced for what amounts to an afterthought as far as the actual game is concerned, PvP. The problem is, while "balancing" for PvP, you break PvE. PvE should be the main focus of this game, as well as teamwork, this is what D&D has been about since it's inception. If this isn't meeting your standards for PvP, I'd suggest it's because it's not supposed to.
Tell me dear friend in what universe can a rogue/thief/ assassin
One shot heavy armor bearers ? Tell me in what world can a rogue do more damage with his normal
Attacks (holding a dagger) than a warrior holding a blade that weights 25 kilos and is 2 meters long?
Anyway in every logical universe rogues do situational dmg by backstabing and they are a hit and run
Kind of class .. By saying that a heavy armor class needs to run like a chicken to be valiable then your whole point is a big HAMSTER**** ..
Wrong, wrong, wrong!
Omg you can't be serious... really.
We're talking about PVP on a D&D themed game. How could you be so blind???
I don't think so i guess devs can balance PVP without breaking PVE
You are right..
But problem is not the BALANCE... problem is MATCHMAKING...
I literally can 3 hit and kill new lvl 60 player with 10k+ GS...
Matchmaking needs tune up, than there won't be any whine on forums about imbalance..
anyways nice post OP.. good luck with flames from n88bs
They should optimize Matchmaking filtering by both level and GS
PS.: Do you know that calling 'em noobs don't make you better than them right? Please watch your manners
How can people be so stupid (waiting for an admin to edit that)? HOW can they?
To the original poster: You made a thread i wanted to make, 10 times better. Bravo my friend. I'm gonna pm you my in game name so you can add me. :-)
Ok the OP described everything perfectly but people are playing this game the wrong way and blame it on the devs. I've played RPGS and All nwn and nwn2 , and only a couple of MMOS. This is propably why I am good at this DnD kind-of style game. Although i have less experience in MMOS, i have what i like to call "basic rpg philosophy". Having played hardcore DnD games have greatly helped my gamestyle too. I can't imagine most of you people here being able to handle even the tutorial of the older rpg games if you can't understand this SIMPLE game.
Alright let's start. I'm not gonna exactly teach you HOW to play, I'm just gonna share my personal experience and point out wrong stuff people do all the time.
For starters I play a TR. I'm not the best TR around, but i've seen plenty who suck. i am level 34? And i made a level 47 TR in a guild that did not even know what Armor Penetration is. Bragged about his high critical chance, and whinned about his low crit damage. How do you expect to play this game correctly if you do not even BOTHER to hover your mouse over the stats to see what they do. What does recovery do? What does life steal do? Why have 3 lifesteal items and 3 critical items and 2 armor penetration items? A little of all is bad. A lot of 2 is great! Moving on.
PvP like the OP said is about holding points. I allways finish first with around 5k points, even if i get slaughtered. I've lost matches were my team had the most kills and i've won matches we were getting our butt kicked? How? it's not about fighting it's about taking control points. Control wizards have an awesome spell that blows you away. If you're taking a point as a CW and you're 95% and someone comes all you have to do is blow him away and the point is yours. NO need to kill him? Stop getting OUT of the circle while fighting the percentage if falling. Same goes for all players. All you have to do is take points.
As a TR i've seen GF that i could kill with 2 blows. And others that i could not kill once throught the game. I've seen my *** getting kicked from GWF hard (and it makes sense, it IS a barbarian class). It's about how you play. I've seen wizards spamming their abilities instead of timing them so a combination of 3 +3 +2 (s) of control effects only lasts about 4 seconds..this is bad..
I've seen wizards rooting a target in the ground, me and another rogue are about to deal insane damage to him with blades of fury, and he just blows the target away. WHY? WHY? You do not have to spam spells like crezi and deal damage, you have to use your brain.
All classes are fine, all you have to do is learn to play. And someone here dared to say that TR has more control than CW. People come ON.
I'm doing 30-39 level pvps and people are still unaware their base is being taken. I mean just learn to play please, it's an action based mmo and it's pretty simple. i mean i don't know what else to say. i feel bad for the devs. They get so much **** they do not deserve.
P.S i just love having GWF and GF in my team...much better than 1 rogue 2 clerics 2 wizards..so much better
Odd that everyone who says "learn to play" are always the ones playing the most OP classes......
Really, do share how they are going to reduce damage on some classes for PvP, or CC, or defensive capabilities w/out gimping them for PvE? The short answer is, they're not. The long answer is, they're not, because in order to "fix" the problems, they have to alter the skills, and altering the skills changes them for PvE every bit as much as it does for PvP. Sorry, you can't solo the opposing group on your cleric, an example only, but you're not meant to.
Reads as: I have nothing to add, so you're OP.