a few class concepts like Magic Missiles and Beholders... WHICH ARE IN THIS GAME... You want dice and alignment an all this mechanics that make it D&D to you? Go get some books and some paper.
Those things are also in Magicka. Does that make it D&D? lol
0
Options
colexianMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 17Arc User
4th ed does away with Multiclassing for the most part.
Deities do need more influence than they have here.
Alignment could have been sweet (ala CoH CoV), but meh, ddo never allowed evil and I am fine with that.
...What?
How does 4e do away with multiclassing?
I guess if you ignore the oh... two dozen multiclass feats, the hybrid dual-classes, and multiclass paragon paths....
Have you ever played 4e?
Okay, I've finally gotten to the point I need to weigh in on this absolutely ridiculous statement... HOW THE HELL IS THIS NOT D&D?! D&D is not defined by basic mechanic but by story and adventure, as well as good times with good people. All I hear is "QQ I can't pick my alignment" "I can't roll dice" and other such nonsense. If D&D is dice to you, you are playing it wrong. D&D is among the most generic of generic fantasy settings, the only thing unique is that it was first of it's kind and the iconic monsters and a few class concepts like Magic Missiles and Beholders... WHICH ARE IN THIS GAME... You want dice and alignment an all this mechanics that make it D&D to you? Go get some books and some paper.
D&D isn't a "setting". Forgotten Realms is a setting. D&D established what classes can and can't do, and how they function. 4th ed threw a lot of that out the window, which is why many people really dislike 4th ed. Then this game threw a lot of THAT out the window, stripping it down even further to the point that its only real resemblance is that it has similar names and where it takes place.
A few "for instances":
Why aren't rogues able to detect secret doors? In this game, fighters do. Buh?
Why can't a cleric use their iconic weapon: the mace?
Why does the fact that a fighter picks up a greatsword somehow prohibit them from wearing plate?
Why can't a wizard use their iconic weapon: the staff?
Why are classes restricted to ONE type of armor/weapon?
Why can't I choose my stats at the start? Why am I forced to pick from a few default layouts?
Where are all the iconic D&D spells? Fireball, web, monster summoning, etc.
I could go on. The point is that the game feels NOTHING like D&D. It's a somewhat cookie-cutter fantasy adventure game with a few terms used from D&D. That's about it. It can be enjoyable, but it isn't D&D.
0
Options
josh0lanternMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 23Arc User
edited May 2013
Why aren't rogues able to detect secret doors? In this game, fighters do. Buh? Rogues can detect them all day, it's the fighter that has the skill to open them
Why can't a cleric use their iconic weapon: the mace? You are not that kind of Cleric
Why does the fact that a fighter picks up a greatsword somehow prohibit them from wearing plate? I throw my hands up on this one... got me there.
Why can't a wizard use their iconic weapon: the staff? Staves were never iconic nor their weapon. You ask a wizard's weapon (years before Harry Potter) and they will say Wand
Why are classes restricted to ONE type of armor/weapon? Really? And armor restriction in 2nd ed weren't rediculous?
Why can't I choose my stats at the start? Why am I forced to pick from a few default layouts? because people are stupid and will dump 17 points in CHA on their Fighter and then have the gall to say it's Cryptic's fault
Where are all the iconic D&D spells? Fireball, web, monster summoning, etc. On a different build for the respective classes
0
Options
colexianMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 17Arc User
Why aren't rogues able to detect secret doors? In this game, fighters do. Buh? Rogues can detect them all day, it's the fighter that has the skill to open them
Why can't a cleric use their iconic weapon: the mace? You are not that kind of Cleric
Why does the fact that a fighter picks up a greatsword somehow prohibit them from wearing plate?
Why can't a wizard use their iconic weapon: the staff? Staves was never their iconic nor their weapon. You say wizard years before Harry Potter and they will say Wand
Why are classes restricted to ONE type of armor/weapon? Really? And armor restriction in 2nd ed weren't rediculous?
Why can't I choose my stats at the start? Why am I forced to pick from a few default layouts? because people are stupid and will dump 17 points in CHA on their Fighter and then have the gall to say it's Cryptic's fault
Where are all the iconic D&D spells? Fireball, web, monster summoning, etc. On a different build for the respective classes
You explained that fighters open them, but not why they have the ability to do so.
What kind of cleric are you then? Cause maces and flails are as cleric vanilla as healing.
Didn't explain why each class is limited to a single type of armor and weapon.
Staves are very iconic, even very far back. There are staff wizards, orb wizards AND wand wizards.
This isn't based on 2nd e. This isn't based on any e other than the use of the terms "at-will", "encounter", and "daily."
People could dump 17 points into CHA on their rogue and have the best stat for pvp though.
I have yet to see web, monster summoning, water walking (any ritual for that matter)
OH, and the big one, THIS GAME HAS 0 SKILL CHALLENGES. Wat.
Not D&D, stop trying so hard to say it is.
You explained that fighters open them, but not why they have the ability to do so.
What kind of cleric are you then? Cause maces and flails are as cleric vanilla as healing.
Didn't explain why each class is limited to a single type of armor and weapon.
Staves are very iconic, even very far back. There are staff wizards, orb wizards AND wand wizards.
This isn't based on 2nd e. This isn't based on any e other than the use of the terms "at-will", "encounter", and "daily."
People could dump 17 points into CHA on their rogue and have the best stat for pvp though.
I have yet to see web, monster summoning, water walking (any ritual for that matter)
OH, and the big one, THIS GAME HAS 0 SKILL CHALLENGES. Wat.
Not D&D, stop trying so hard to say it is.
and again, half-orc gets dex bonus.
/thread.
1. Where does the Rogue learn it?
2. A Cleric that doesn't use Maces and Shields, You want the Battle Cleric build.
3. I didn't.
4. you can't say all three are iconic and complain when you are given one of them.
5. Huh?
6. Yes, they could. All the better reason to disallow that.
7. Really? Because I open my 4e PHB and see them just fine, but you know, all of those save for Web aren't controlling powers... what was that class name again? Ah yes, Controlling Wizard
Why aren't rogues able to detect secret doors? In this game, fighters do. Buh?
Why can't a cleric use their iconic weapon: the mace?
Why does the fact that a fighter picks up a greatsword somehow prohibit them from wearing plate?
Why can't a wizard use their iconic weapon: the staff?
Why are classes restricted to ONE type of armor/weapon?
Why can't I choose my stats at the start? Why am I forced to pick from a few default layouts?
Where are all the iconic D&D spells? Fireball, web, monster summoning, etc.
I could go on. The point is that the game feels NOTHING like D&D. It's a somewhat cookie-cutter fantasy adventure game with a few terms used from D&D. That's about it. It can be enjoyable, but it isn't D&D.
1) No argument, it's silly.
2) The build of Devoted Cleric isn't an upfront melee style cleric. You want the War Cleric. they are al about being up front fighters.
3) No good reason for this either. Maybe the figured since he is supposed to have more of a dmg focus in the PnP version he shouldn't also have the access to the best defensive armor.
4) CW is better off using the orb. The orb helps with controlling powers. now if they add a War Wizard, Illusionist Wizard or Summoner Wizard you'll start to see staves, wands or tomes I know you only mentioned staff but those two are the other options presented in 4e for wizard.
5) I'm going to have to guess this one is MMO related. Something about fairness of roll and such. Cant have or dps rocking plate and such.
6) Choose how? By rolling until you get the best score you could ever get? I suppose that could be a thing if cryptic charged Zen for each re-roll you make. Or by do you mean point buy? Which is the method I prefer. But point buy does hinder those who don't fully understand the system. Or maybe you mean choosing from an array? Which isn't that kind of what this is? They just make sure that you have a decent/good roll in your primary stat. All in all it is pretty much to make sure new players don't royally much up their characters I'm guessing.
7) If they add in the rest of the 23 classes with 3-4 builds per class from the three Player's Handbooks and the Forgotten Realms Players Guide I'm sure you'll start to see those other spells show up.
Why aren't rogues able to detect secret doors? In this game, fighters do. Buh? Rogues can detect them all day, it's the fighter that has the skill to open them
And why does a fighter "have the skill to open them" that the rogue is somehow lacking? You know, that rogue who can detect hidden traps and casually disarm them, but apparently can't figure out "push this rock to open secret door"?
Why can't a cleric use their iconic weapon: the mace? You are not that kind of Cleric
So now clerics have "types"? Again, not D&D. A cleric is a cleric is a cleric.
Why does the fact that a fighter picks up a greatsword somehow prohibit them from wearing plate? I throw my hands up on this one... got me there.
It's rather baffling, yes.
Why can't a wizard use their iconic weapon: the staff? Staves were never iconic nor their weapon. You ask a wizard's weapon (years before Harry Potter) and they will say Wand
Not iconic? Are you daft? The "bearded spellcaster with a staff" is THE iconic image for a wizard.
Why are classes restricted to ONE type of armor/weapon? Really? And armor restriction in 2nd ed weren't rediculous?
There were no fixed restrictions, and what ones there were they tried to justify. You could WEAR whatever armor you wanted; it simply impacted your class abilities (sometimes to an extreme) if you did. Rogue in plate? Sure thing. Just screws over a lot of their thieving abilities. As it should. Want to be a fighter and wear leather, for a "grungy bar-fighter" look? Sure, go for it. Want to wear a robe as a cleric, instead of chainmail? No problem.
Why can't I choose my stats at the start? Why am I forced to pick from a few default layouts? because people are stupid and will dump 17 points in CHA on their Fighter and then have the gall to say it's Cryptic's fault
So because some people will not read anything about what the stats do and make silly decisions, everyone else should have to live with arbitrary templates? What if I don't WANT con to be a dump-stat on my wizard? What if I WANT to have a cleric with slightly higher int or dex? Let people build their own characters.
Where are all the iconic D&D spells? Fireball, web, monster summoning, etc. On a different build for the respective classes
So again, not D&D. Pigeon-holed sub-categories of classes is not D&D.
Like I said, there are MANY aspects of this game that fly in the face of D&D, despite its claims to be a D&D-based game. If it just was "Neverwinter Online" and didn't mention D&D anywhere at all, I'd have no problem with it -- because it's not D&D.
I believe that Wizards of the Coast would license the official D&D tampong if there was any money in it.
lol so true.
I never played 4e, but as an old fogey, this game doesn't really resemble D&D the way I remembered it. For an MMO it's not bad I guess. I feel like Lizards of the Coast is trying to turn D&D into a money grab machine like Magic: the Gathering though.
D&D isn't a "setting". Forgotten Realms is a setting. D&D established what classes can and can't do, and how they function. 4th ed threw a lot of that out the window, which is why many people really dislike 4th ed. Then this game threw a lot of THAT out the window, stripping it down even further to the point that its only real resemblance is that it has similar names and where it takes place.
A few "for instances":
Why aren't rogues able to detect secret doors? In this game, fighters do. Buh?
Why can't a cleric use their iconic weapon: the mace?
Why does the fact that a fighter picks up a greatsword somehow prohibit them from wearing plate?
Why can't a wizard use their iconic weapon: the staff?
Why are classes restricted to ONE type of armor/weapon?
Why can't I choose my stats at the start? Why am I forced to pick from a few default layouts?
Where are all the iconic D&D spells? Fireball, web, monster summoning, etc.
I could go on. The point is that the game feels NOTHING like D&D. It's a somewhat cookie-cutter fantasy adventure game with a few terms used from D&D. That's about it. It can be enjoyable, but it isn't D&D.
100% agreed.
NWO does not respect the fundamentals of D&D 4e at all.
4e is about versatile and open minded base classes. Like the versions before.
Concepts like Battle Cleric or Devoted Cleric are just nonbinding options or titles without any strict meaning.
And paragon paths determine maybe 10 % or less of the choices within a class.
Curiosity, from someone who played PnP from Basic thru AD&D 2nd. When did multiclassing become a mainstream thing? Because it wasn't in Basic, and in 1st & 2nd it was possible, but rare (mostly because it tended to suck - all xp divided among your classes until they leveled, which meant you took forever to get anywhere).
It's been awhile since I played NWN, but I don't remember multiclassing being big there.... is it a 3.5 thing? Because yeah, it's all over DDO, which is 3.5 based. (Of course, all the options and variables in DDO just makes it a giant trap for people who aren't uber-min-maxers..... if you don't plan out your entire build from the moment you're assigning stat points, odds are you'll discover your character is worthless around lv10-11. Sounds more like the old derided "roll-playing" rather than "role-playing")
Curiosity, from someone who played PnP from Basic thru AD&D 2nd. When did multiclassing become a mainstream thing? Because it wasn't in Basic, and in 1st & 2nd it was possible, but rare (mostly because it tended to suck - all xp divided among your classes until they leveled, which meant you took forever to get anywhere).
It's been awhile since I played NWN, but I don't remember multiclassing being big there.... is it a 3.5 thing? Because yeah, it's all over DDO, which is 3.5 based. (Of course, all the options and variables in DDO just makes it a giant trap for people who aren't uber-min-maxers..... if you don't plan out your entire build from the moment you're assigning stat points, odds are you'll discover your character is worthless around lv10-11. Sounds more like the old derided "roll-playing" rather than "role-playing")
Multiclassing was indeed a big part of 3.5 (and in NWN) and was very complex to build a character. IIRC, multiclassing predated 3.5 though, but functioned differently in 2nd edition where you had to stop advancing in one class when picking another, and there were some strict pre-requisites to do so, etc.
Curiosity, from someone who played PnP from Basic thru AD&D 2nd. When did multiclassing become a mainstream thing? Because it wasn't in Basic, and in 1st & 2nd it was possible, but rare (mostly because it tended to suck - all xp divided among your classes until they leveled, which meant you took forever to get anywhere).
Well, except that in 2nd ed experience to advance was different for each class. At low-levels you'd be a bit behind, but once you started getting up to the 9+ range, you'd see parties like:
9 fighter, 11 rogue, 8 wizard, 9 cleric, 7/7/7 fighter/wizard/rogue.
They'd only be SLIGHTLY behind.
It's been awhile since I played NWN, but I don't remember multiclassing being big there.... is it a 3.5 thing? Because yeah, it's all over DDO, which is 3.5 based. (Of course, all the options and variables in DDO just makes it a giant trap for people who aren't uber-min-maxers..... if you don't plan out your entire build from the moment you're assigning stat points, odds are you'll discover your character is worthless around lv10-11. Sounds more like the old derided "roll-playing" rather than "role-playing")
I disagree that you have to plot out your build or be worthless. There are lots of ways to screw up your character, certainly, but it's also really easy to make a strong character even if you're just going for a concept (you know, role-playing). You just can't throw a dart at a board full of feats/skills and pick stuff at random. You DO have to plan some things out. Even role-players do that.
Curiosity, from someone who played PnP from Basic thru AD&D 2nd. When did multiclassing become a mainstream thing? Because it wasn't in Basic, and in 1st & 2nd it was possible, but rare (mostly because it tended to suck - all xp divided among your classes until they leveled, which meant you took forever to get anywhere).
It's been awhile since I played NWN, but I don't remember multiclassing being big there.... is it a 3.5 thing? Because yeah, it's all over DDO, which is 3.5 based. (Of course, all the options and variables in DDO just makes it a giant trap for people who aren't uber-min-maxers..... if you don't plan out your entire build from the moment you're assigning stat points, odds are you'll discover your character is worthless around lv10-11. Sounds more like the old derided "roll-playing" rather than "role-playing")
Multi-class was quite frequent at our table. I was a fighter druid. Heck one of our players was a party unto himself as a Fighter,Magic-user,Thief (not rogue back then).
Multi-class was quite frequent at our table. I was a fighter druid. Heck one of our players was a party unto himself as a Fighter,Magic-user,Thief (not rogue back then).
Ahh, the good old days when you could just call a thief a thief, and not have to use "rogue".
The beauty of NWN (and 3.5) was its flexibility, and in NWN's case... moddability. There was a different experience available for whatever mood I was in, from hack and slash to hardcore roleplay. The spells and ruleset themselves were open to modding so that you could find a group that fit your taste with a little effort. The system was nice and complex, but on the other hand you didn't have to get into the depth and complexity of creating a character if you didn't want to. NWN was like a finely crafted canvass (although not perfect) that allowed for almost limitless imagination and creativity.
I never played 4e, but as an old fogey, this game doesn't really resemble D&D the way I remembered it. For an MMO it's not bad I guess. I feel like Lizards of the Coast is trying to turn D&D into a money grab machine like Magic: the Gathering though.
What's really funny is that TSR was 1000 times worse than WotC. They actually closed down fan sites in their greed. WotC pretty much saved D&D with 3.0 and the System Reference Document that was free to use under Open Game License.
Of course, all the options and variables in DDO just makes it a giant trap for people who aren't uber-min-maxers
That's true for almost (thanks lyokira ) every MMO. I have feats that affect powers I don't get until 15 levels later. How the heck am I supposed to know if they are any good unless I read class guides?
What's really funny is that TSR was 1000 times worse than WotC. They actually closed down fan sites in their greed. WotC pretty much saved D&D with 3.0 and the System Reference Document that was free to use under Open Game License.
That's true for every MMO. I have feats that affect powers I don't get until 15 levels later. How the heck am I supposed to know if they are any good unless I read class guides?
Just to make a quick note, that's not applicable to every MMO, just most of them.
I've played D&D table-top for almost 18 years now. Every friday I GM a game with 6 players and I have to say that this game pretty well abandons all that is holy to what D&D is based off of. I understand that this is an MMO and role-play is pretty well going to be tossed to the way side. However, this does not mean that all of the choices that a player has should be trivialized or simply tossed aside. This game (neverwinter) is truly an abominiation of what D&D is.
Fourth Edition is a system that I personally do not like but I believe that if any edition should be ported over to a multiplayer video game, fourth is the one that could shine. However, the fact that they decided to ADD in an a$$ ton of mechanics that never existed in D&D just tells me that the developers really had no idea what the hell they were/are doing.
Crafting is NOTHING like what D&D (any edition) is like. I don't feel like ANY of the items in this game are reminiscent of the items you find in D&D. Where is my robe of eyes, or cloak of resistance, or boots of speed or amulet of natural armor, rings of deflection and so on. They're not in this game because they decided to completly overhaul what D&D is in order to make their MMO. This is a lackluster MMO with a D&D label attached to it. Nothing more...
Well, except that in 2nd ed experience to advance was different for each class. At low-levels you'd be a bit behind, but once you started getting up to the 9+ range, you'd see parties like:
9 fighter, 11 rogue, 8 wizard, 9 cleric, 7/7/7 fighter/wizard/rogue.
Well, that could be part of it. Our AD&D2 campaign back in highschool lasted 1.5-2 years, and we only got to around level 7 (single class).
Well, that could be part of it. Our AD&D2 campaign back in highschool lasted 1.5-2 years, and we only got to around level 7 (single class).
Highest we got to was around 18-19th. The rogue was something like 24th. I think my fighter/mage/thief was 17/15/21 or something like that. We'd started our own country, had a huge city being built (had it all mapped out and such), etc.
This game is based on the new edition of D&D and they have done away with most of the things you have mentioned.
Iam a member of a RP group that plays D&D once a month (with beer) and my DM bought all the books and after one session we went back to good old 2nd edition.
I mean you can't even play an evil dude anymore....I think they have made the 5th edition to please MMORPGers who play wow etc..
Wait are you talking about DnD next or 4th- 4th was a MMO. D&D next which is being tested by the community is more like 1st edition.
Its really good IMO
This game is based on the new edition of D&D and they have done away with most of the things you have mentioned.
Iam a member of a RP group that plays D&D once a month (with beer) and my DM bought all the books and after one session we went back to good old 2nd edition.
I mean you can't even play an evil dude anymore....I think they have made the 5th edition to please MMORPGers who play wow etc..
I do not know what you have played.
The 4th edition seems very good after reading the player's handbook.
Much better than the stuff we have in this game.
There are these alignments in 4e: god, lawful good, evil, chaotic evil, unaligned
I also play DDO a lot with my friends and i have to say i do really like the 3.5 rules compared to 4e.... it seems like 3 - 3.5 where a natural progression from 2nd Edition (which i table top played) I do like Neverwinter but i feel like the weapons you get in this game compared to DDO are not as cool and because you level up so quickly aren't as useful for as long as they are in DDO. Im still using a short sword i got when i was level 12 on my level 20 Rogue, however in Neverwinter i find myself selling stuff after 2 or 3 levels.
I also play DDO a lot with my friends and i have to say i do really like the 3.5 rules compared to 4e.... it seems like 3 - 3.5 where a natural progression from 2nd Edition (which i table top played) I do like Neverwinter but i feel like the weapons you get in this game compared to DDO are not as cool and because you level up so quickly aren't as useful for as long as they are in DDO. Im still using a short sword i got when i was level 12 on my level 20 Rogue, however in Neverwinter i find myself selling stuff after 2 or 3 levels.
Well, that thing bother me least i think.Sure i would like to have magical sword with a nice memories to it to carry it with me for like 20 levels, but this MMO in the end...
Issue is that D&D is inherently slow paced, rendering it niche. There are foundry quests with slower paced story, and "DM"s are constantly trying to make more options for players to progress through them non-linearly. Meanwhile players prefer "summon 20 ogres" maps.
The issue is that people think that DnD=The Rules whereas it doesn't. At the end of the day DnD is what you make of it.
I've had sessions where the pens, papers and dice never came into it, where my players wanted to do nothing more than discuss the eventual strategy to take on the villain and I've merely acted as the facilitator.
At the same time I've also had sessions where they just moved from room to room killing monsters. At the end of the day, DnD isn't any one thing, it's a combination of many things and subjective to each players own interpretation.
I suppose D&D is different things to different people, but here's a shortlist of things that jump to mind:
- an environment where players can be creative and imaginative and create their own stories with flexible, but deep and optionally complex rules.
- A DM to oversee and shape this world, sometimes planned and other times on the fly. Some of my most memorable times roleplaying were in NWN with a talented DM and other players improvising on the spot.
- A sense of overcoming challenges, combat in a tactical and methodical fashion. Players today probably label it as slow.
- An interesting, deep, and complex character creation and development with a wide array of options.
- The Greyhawk campaign (just because I liked it lol)
Overall, it's not that Neverwinter is a bad game, and it seems decent enough for an MMO. It's that it a really poor D&D game. NWN was an excellent D&D game imo. I really think persistent worlds and DM client (and the modding tools) really helped make it a great D&D game.
Comments
...What?
How does 4e do away with multiclassing?
I guess if you ignore the oh... two dozen multiclass feats, the hybrid dual-classes, and multiclass paragon paths....
Have you ever played 4e?
D&D isn't a "setting". Forgotten Realms is a setting. D&D established what classes can and can't do, and how they function. 4th ed threw a lot of that out the window, which is why many people really dislike 4th ed. Then this game threw a lot of THAT out the window, stripping it down even further to the point that its only real resemblance is that it has similar names and where it takes place.
A few "for instances":
Why aren't rogues able to detect secret doors? In this game, fighters do. Buh?
Why can't a cleric use their iconic weapon: the mace?
Why does the fact that a fighter picks up a greatsword somehow prohibit them from wearing plate?
Why can't a wizard use their iconic weapon: the staff?
Why are classes restricted to ONE type of armor/weapon?
Why can't I choose my stats at the start? Why am I forced to pick from a few default layouts?
Where are all the iconic D&D spells? Fireball, web, monster summoning, etc.
I could go on. The point is that the game feels NOTHING like D&D. It's a somewhat cookie-cutter fantasy adventure game with a few terms used from D&D. That's about it. It can be enjoyable, but it isn't D&D.
Why can't a cleric use their iconic weapon: the mace? You are not that kind of Cleric
Why does the fact that a fighter picks up a greatsword somehow prohibit them from wearing plate? I throw my hands up on this one... got me there.
Why can't a wizard use their iconic weapon: the staff? Staves were never iconic nor their weapon. You ask a wizard's weapon (years before Harry Potter) and they will say Wand
Why are classes restricted to ONE type of armor/weapon? Really? And armor restriction in 2nd ed weren't rediculous?
Why can't I choose my stats at the start? Why am I forced to pick from a few default layouts? because people are stupid and will dump 17 points in CHA on their Fighter and then have the gall to say it's Cryptic's fault
Where are all the iconic D&D spells? Fireball, web, monster summoning, etc. On a different build for the respective classes
You explained that fighters open them, but not why they have the ability to do so.
What kind of cleric are you then? Cause maces and flails are as cleric vanilla as healing.
Didn't explain why each class is limited to a single type of armor and weapon.
Staves are very iconic, even very far back. There are staff wizards, orb wizards AND wand wizards.
This isn't based on 2nd e. This isn't based on any e other than the use of the terms "at-will", "encounter", and "daily."
People could dump 17 points into CHA on their rogue and have the best stat for pvp though.
I have yet to see web, monster summoning, water walking (any ritual for that matter)
OH, and the big one, THIS GAME HAS 0 SKILL CHALLENGES. Wat.
Not D&D, stop trying so hard to say it is.
and again, half-orc gets dex bonus.
/thread.
I believe that Wizards of the Coast would license the official D&D tampong if there was any money in it.
1. Where does the Rogue learn it?
2. A Cleric that doesn't use Maces and Shields, You want the Battle Cleric build.
3. I didn't.
4. you can't say all three are iconic and complain when you are given one of them.
5. Huh?
6. Yes, they could. All the better reason to disallow that.
7. Really? Because I open my 4e PHB and see them just fine, but you know, all of those save for Web aren't controlling powers... what was that class name again? Ah yes, Controlling Wizard
1) No argument, it's silly.
2) The build of Devoted Cleric isn't an upfront melee style cleric. You want the War Cleric. they are al about being up front fighters.
3) No good reason for this either. Maybe the figured since he is supposed to have more of a dmg focus in the PnP version he shouldn't also have the access to the best defensive armor.
4) CW is better off using the orb. The orb helps with controlling powers. now if they add a War Wizard, Illusionist Wizard or Summoner Wizard you'll start to see staves, wands or tomes I know you only mentioned staff but those two are the other options presented in 4e for wizard.
5) I'm going to have to guess this one is MMO related. Something about fairness of roll and such. Cant have or dps rocking plate and such.
6) Choose how? By rolling until you get the best score you could ever get? I suppose that could be a thing if cryptic charged Zen for each re-roll you make. Or by do you mean point buy? Which is the method I prefer. But point buy does hinder those who don't fully understand the system. Or maybe you mean choosing from an array? Which isn't that kind of what this is? They just make sure that you have a decent/good roll in your primary stat. All in all it is pretty much to make sure new players don't royally much up their characters I'm guessing.
7) If they add in the rest of the 23 classes with 3-4 builds per class from the three Player's Handbooks and the Forgotten Realms Players Guide I'm sure you'll start to see those other spells show up.
And why does a fighter "have the skill to open them" that the rogue is somehow lacking? You know, that rogue who can detect hidden traps and casually disarm them, but apparently can't figure out "push this rock to open secret door"?
So now clerics have "types"? Again, not D&D. A cleric is a cleric is a cleric.
It's rather baffling, yes.
Not iconic? Are you daft? The "bearded spellcaster with a staff" is THE iconic image for a wizard.
There were no fixed restrictions, and what ones there were they tried to justify. You could WEAR whatever armor you wanted; it simply impacted your class abilities (sometimes to an extreme) if you did. Rogue in plate? Sure thing. Just screws over a lot of their thieving abilities. As it should. Want to be a fighter and wear leather, for a "grungy bar-fighter" look? Sure, go for it. Want to wear a robe as a cleric, instead of chainmail? No problem.
So because some people will not read anything about what the stats do and make silly decisions, everyone else should have to live with arbitrary templates? What if I don't WANT con to be a dump-stat on my wizard? What if I WANT to have a cleric with slightly higher int or dex? Let people build their own characters.
So again, not D&D. Pigeon-holed sub-categories of classes is not D&D.
Like I said, there are MANY aspects of this game that fly in the face of D&D, despite its claims to be a D&D-based game. If it just was "Neverwinter Online" and didn't mention D&D anywhere at all, I'd have no problem with it -- because it's not D&D.
lol so true.
I never played 4e, but as an old fogey, this game doesn't really resemble D&D the way I remembered it. For an MMO it's not bad I guess. I feel like Lizards of the Coast is trying to turn D&D into a money grab machine like Magic: the Gathering though.
100% agreed.
NWO does not respect the fundamentals of D&D 4e at all.
4e is about versatile and open minded base classes. Like the versions before.
Concepts like Battle Cleric or Devoted Cleric are just nonbinding options or titles without any strict meaning.
And paragon paths determine maybe 10 % or less of the choices within a class.
It's been awhile since I played NWN, but I don't remember multiclassing being big there.... is it a 3.5 thing? Because yeah, it's all over DDO, which is 3.5 based. (Of course, all the options and variables in DDO just makes it a giant trap for people who aren't uber-min-maxers..... if you don't plan out your entire build from the moment you're assigning stat points, odds are you'll discover your character is worthless around lv10-11. Sounds more like the old derided "roll-playing" rather than "role-playing")
Multiclassing was indeed a big part of 3.5 (and in NWN) and was very complex to build a character. IIRC, multiclassing predated 3.5 though, but functioned differently in 2nd edition where you had to stop advancing in one class when picking another, and there were some strict pre-requisites to do so, etc.
Well, except that in 2nd ed experience to advance was different for each class. At low-levels you'd be a bit behind, but once you started getting up to the 9+ range, you'd see parties like:
9 fighter, 11 rogue, 8 wizard, 9 cleric, 7/7/7 fighter/wizard/rogue.
They'd only be SLIGHTLY behind.
I disagree that you have to plot out your build or be worthless. There are lots of ways to screw up your character, certainly, but it's also really easy to make a strong character even if you're just going for a concept (you know, role-playing). You just can't throw a dart at a board full of feats/skills and pick stuff at random. You DO have to plan some things out. Even role-players do that.
Ahh, the good old days when you could just call a thief a thief, and not have to use "rogue".
What's really funny is that TSR was 1000 times worse than WotC. They actually closed down fan sites in their greed. WotC pretty much saved D&D with 3.0 and the System Reference Document that was free to use under Open Game License.
That's true for almost (thanks lyokira
Just to make a quick note, that's not applicable to every MMO, just most of them.
This is an open beta. Start treating it like one.
Fourth Edition is a system that I personally do not like but I believe that if any edition should be ported over to a multiplayer video game, fourth is the one that could shine. However, the fact that they decided to ADD in an a$$ ton of mechanics that never existed in D&D just tells me that the developers really had no idea what the hell they were/are doing.
Crafting is NOTHING like what D&D (any edition) is like. I don't feel like ANY of the items in this game are reminiscent of the items you find in D&D. Where is my robe of eyes, or cloak of resistance, or boots of speed or amulet of natural armor, rings of deflection and so on. They're not in this game because they decided to completly overhaul what D&D is in order to make their MMO. This is a lackluster MMO with a D&D label attached to it. Nothing more...
Well, that could be part of it. Our AD&D2 campaign back in highschool lasted 1.5-2 years, and we only got to around level 7 (single class).
Highest we got to was around 18-19th. The rogue was something like 24th. I think my fighter/mage/thief was 17/15/21 or something like that. We'd started our own country, had a huge city being built (had it all mapped out and such), etc.
Its really good IMO
I do not know what you have played.
The 4th edition seems very good after reading the player's handbook.
Much better than the stuff we have in this game.
There are these alignments in 4e: god, lawful good, evil, chaotic evil, unaligned
Well, that thing bother me least i think.Sure i would like to have magical sword with a nice memories to it to carry it with me for like 20 levels, but this MMO in the end...
This is an open beta. Start treating it like one.
I've had sessions where the pens, papers and dice never came into it, where my players wanted to do nothing more than discuss the eventual strategy to take on the villain and I've merely acted as the facilitator.
At the same time I've also had sessions where they just moved from room to room killing monsters. At the end of the day, DnD isn't any one thing, it's a combination of many things and subjective to each players own interpretation.
- an environment where players can be creative and imaginative and create their own stories with flexible, but deep and optionally complex rules.
- A DM to oversee and shape this world, sometimes planned and other times on the fly. Some of my most memorable times roleplaying were in NWN with a talented DM and other players improvising on the spot.
- A sense of overcoming challenges, combat in a tactical and methodical fashion. Players today probably label it as slow.
- An interesting, deep, and complex character creation and development with a wide array of options.
- The Greyhawk campaign (just because I liked it lol)
Overall, it's not that Neverwinter is a bad game, and it seems decent enough for an MMO. It's that it a really poor D&D game. NWN was an excellent D&D game imo. I really think persistent worlds and DM client (and the modding tools) really helped make it a great D&D game.