Cw's damage still outrageous for the amount off cc and survivability they have
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rhavialMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 8Arc User
edited May 2013
Hey Des, Ilyasviel here.
I've been much into pvp lately so I'd like to share what I found.
Keep in mind that most of what I 'm about to say happen in pvp geared level 60 matches.
As for the build:
I m specced as Scoundrel, going for the in stealth out of stealth shenanigans.
For my passives I use Skillfull Infiltrator and Invisible Inflitrator. The restealth is amazing and it allows for easy 2v1 action.
For the dailies I'm afraid there is only 1 way to go. Shocking Execution for 1shotting people below half health and Lurker's Assault, mainly so I can kill GFs or sustained damage in big fights.
These are pretty much standard, as well as Cloud of Blades. If I see a rogue without these he probably won't concern me much.
For SF vs DF. I don't know what happens in your level bracket but, after I got a few gear pieces which made me a lot more durable, I find A LOT of my damage being Auto attack damage, or Sly Flourish. I can see your point over DF but for me, it is an actual way of damage.
For encounters, Smoke Bomb is a must and Lashing Blade is a must. The key point is Deft Strike. You say we NEED a gap closer. I don't find that especially true. I saw a build around here somewhere with Shadow Strike. Tried it and loved it.
I get 15% ms from Skillfull and quite an amount from my pvp boots so I don't really have trouble catching people.
Plus I get double the stealth which is an extra 40% damage with scoundrel paragon, making my SF hurt.
While you have the problem of positioning, I tend to love sky attacks, aka, jumping on people from pillars and bridges.
After you get close to someone the main combo is Smoke Bomb with the slow and then immediately shadowstrike. Restealth and start hitting them till they are close to exiting the smoke, then LB. Finish them up with CoB.
While it does require a bit of work in positioning to make it work it gives me a LOT of combat power.
I suggest you try it
Hey Des, Ilyasviel here.
I've been much into pvp lately so I'd like to share what I found.
Keep in mind that most of what I 'm about to say happen in pvp geared level 60 matches.
As for the build:
I m specced as Scoundrel, going for the in stealth out of stealth shenanigans.
For my passives I use Skillfull Infiltrator and Invisible Inflitrator. The restealth is amazing and it allows for easy 2v1 action.
For the dailies I'm afraid there is only 1 way to go. Shocking Execution for 1shotting people below half health and Lurker's Assault, mainly so I can kill GFs or sustained damage in big fights.
These are pretty much standard, as well as Cloud of Blades. If I see a rogue without these he probably won't concern me much.
For SF vs DF. I don't know what happens in your level bracket but, after I got a few gear pieces which made me a lot more durable, I find A LOT of my damage being Auto attack damage, or Sly Flourish. I can see your point over DF but for me, it is an actual way of damage.
For encounters, Smoke Bomb is a must and Lashing Blade is a must. The key point is Deft Strike. You say we NEED a gap closer. I don't find that especially true. I saw a build around here somewhere with Shadow Strike. Tried it and loved it.
I get 15% ms from Skillfull and quite an amount from my pvp boots so I don't really have trouble catching people.
Plus I get double the stealth which is an extra 40% damage with scoundrel paragon, making my SF hurt.
While you have the problem of positioning, I tend to love sky attacks, aka, jumping on people from pillars and bridges.
After you get close to someone the main combo is Smoke Bomb with the slow and then immediately shadowstrike. Restealth and start hitting them till they are close to exiting the smoke, then LB. Finish them up with CoB.
While it does require a bit of work in positioning to make it work it gives me a LOT of combat power.
I suggest you try it
Great post! I would love to try it out liek I said though NEED a gap closer. When you fight good people just simply running after them wont get you to them. The main point from DF to SF is that any good person WONT let you auto attack them, your damage will come from instant casts aka LB.
So my posts is purely based off of fighting good people who know how to counter rogues. Easy people who jsut stand there and let you damage than is not even worth mentioning. Trying to kill a CW without deft is impossible against any good ones.
I will go into the execution tree or scoundrel debating yet. your post is very detailed and I can see that you have experienced a great deal of matches to be able to putforth your knowledge but I do believe in a situation where someone who knows excactly how to counter rogues, your build will be flawed. the whole downfall to rogues is the fact that we stop when using things. Peopel who realzied that know that all they have to do is dodge the correct thing and than can kite us FOREVER we have limited resources to what we can do and how well we can stick to someone. When cw's figure that out they know exactly when to put out damage and when not to. Also another flaw is, you can be seen while stealthed. so its easy to dodge your opener when you restealth.
If we were completely invisible to the human eye than I would take your scenarios in to consideration BUT that isn't the case , you have a trail of shadow the follows you in stealth. very easy to catch. when people figure that out, you cant open on them
The main point from DF to SF is that any good person WONT let you auto attack them, your damage will come from instant casts aka LB.
That's the same story with DF too. The first two attacks are quto's, and as you said, any good player will NOT let stand still to let you get them attacks off, nor' will they let you get that third one off. The maximum you might get before people try to run and your DF gets stopped is 1 auto. Sly Flourish can have at least two autos in that time. And I agree with the guy that Rhavial where he says that ALOT of a rogues damage is indeed from auto attacks. I wouldn't say 50%, but very easily 25% of a TR's damage comes from their at-wills.
Just know that against an actual CW who actually knows what he is doing. It is 100% Impossible to kill him.
I strongly disagree with this. I've played against and dueled many very good control wizards and have come out on top, even without my daily more times than I can count.
I think the main downfall for a Rogue is actually its team. If you have a shocking team composition (generally with no Clerics), you're not going to have too great of a time. If your team never seems to be 'there' when they need to be, and the enemy team is, things are also not going to look too good. I've had many a time when one second my team is right in front of me, I jump to the back line and start doing work, and the next thing I know the entire enemy team is on me and my team is nowhere to be seen.
If the enemy team has a GOOD cleric, and you don't - things suddenly become a lot harder for a Rogue. So many times I've done tons of damage to someone, only to get jumped on and all the damage I did gets healed up. I can't remember the last time I actually got healed by a Cleric in a PvP scenario. I've found a build that works for me (encouter/at-will/daily wise), I run Deft Strike, Lashing Blade and Impossible to Catch. Dailies are Bloodbath and Lurkers Assault (for now, need to get higher for SE) and at-wills are Sly Flourish and Cloud of Steel (SF just seems sooooo much more better than DF, that I've made my mind up about). Only thing I need a little bit of advice on is passives, I currently have the increased Stealth run speed one, and the first attack increase bonus, but I want to change them out for some more PvP orientated ones - any suggestions?
Of course some people can operate without a gap closer they're not exclusively about closing the gap to do damage. There will often be the shooter on the outside who you'll see revving up a heavy hitter on one of your key teammates and you're going to be the one to close in instantly and shut them down with a daze or interrupt. It's used offensively and evasively, unless the skill taking it's spot is an instant kill then there's no reason not to have one, especially being the mobility class.
Do you still stand behind your original post when it comes to gear and focusing on power. I found that the majority of gear for rogues is not focused on this. If this has changed at all let us know. Also, can you give some direction on what the secondary stats would be good to get for rogue gear?
That's the same story with DF too. The first two attacks are quto's, and as you said, any good player will NOT let stand still to let you get them attacks off, nor' will they let you get that third one off. The maximum you might get before people try to run and your DF gets stopped is 1 auto. Sly Flourish can have at least two autos in that time. And I agree with the guy that Rhavial where he says that ALOT of a rogues damage is indeed from auto attacks. I wouldn't say 50%, but very easily 25% of a TR's damage comes from their at-wills.
Naw, good people will make it so you cant even touch them, I try to use two strikes before I get to someone so I can sue my third striek as a gap closer to force a dodge or blink. and damage wise, a tick of bleeds hit just a little less than an auto attakc and CAN crit, I used to hate it and want to go back to sly until I found out the potential of DF. Yes the team does take a great part, but seriously, I dont think you guys have played against someone good who knows what they are doing, I only met 2 control wizards who knew how to roll thier blinks and cc's perfectly. havent met another good rogue yet.
NEED a cc, NEED a damage abilitiy and NEED a gap closer once you learn excactly what to dodge and what not you wont need IoC.
Thus why deft strike > stealth > Dazing strike > Lashing is the BEST opener you can have on a cw as of right now. They all panic thinking they are going to die not realizing that we have no gap closer except two dodges and that they can out cc us, they just spam all their abilities and dodges
The DF theory is GREAT.
CC - Yes, Smoke bomb is great for party fights, but for 1v1s Dazing strike is better, its a CC + DMG.
DMG - LR: Not totally necessary, while burst is nice, it's easily dodged also. It's great for party fights in mid, when you need to burn someone down though.
Gap closer - Deft: Again not totally necessary, fighting CWs isn't just about "gap closing" but rather, forcing them to burn all 3 blinks.
IOC - You need this, it doesn't just grant CC immunity, it lets you break CC and limited Damage mitigation and when used from stealth makes you totally immune to damage. Proper timing of this lets you mitigate nukes/CCs. When used with specific enchantments you'll never replace it for PvP.
DF is only good if you're fighting someone who wants to fight (ie staying in range) / rooted / or too stupid to dodge. So either you use DF in a party fight where your CW/DCs are rooting them, or fighting scrubs. Other than that SF is the way to go.
You'll see two very different set of encounter abilities and roughly speaking playstyles, but IOC is always there, be it me using it or other rogues, if you don't have it. You lose. Plain and simple.
Dude...why did you not tell me that earlier? I just went into a PvP match (figured out that you should be at the -9 level of your bracket to expect to do well), did what you said where you charge up DF early and not worry if you don't get it off, and when I did get it off...holy ****. I went 23/4/19 - I didn't use Dazed Strike though, I used Impossible to Catch instead. The reason I did that was because I had immunity and defence, and I didn't have anything else to open out of stealth with than Lashing Blade. I think that's really good cos it hits so **** hard. One shot a cleric with a 6k Stealth > Lashing Blade. It was insane. I agree now, once you know how to use DF, and you're at a high enough level in your bracket - DF > SF all the way. Just takes alot of practice and patience to not get frustrated when you don't land it. Gotta say though, until I get Smoke Bomb, IoC all the way.
CC - Yes, Smoke bomb is great for party fights, but for 1v1s Dazing strike is better, its a CC + DMG.
DMG - LR: Not totally necessary, while burst is nice, it's easily dodged also. It's great for party fights in mid, when you need to burn someone down though.
Gap closer - Deft: Again not totally necessary, fighting CWs isn't just about "gap closing" but rather, forcing them to burn all 3 blinks.
IOC - You need this, it doesn't just grant CC immunity, it lets you break CC and limited Damage mitigation and when used from stealth makes you totally immune to damage. Proper timing of this lets you mitigate nukes/CCs. When used with specific enchantments you'll never replace it for PvP.
DF is only good if you're fighting someone who wants to fight (ie staying in range) / rooted / or too stupid to dodge. So either you use DF in a party fight where your CW/DCs are rooting them, or fighting scrubs. Other than that SF is the way to go.
You'll see two very different set of encounter abilities and roughly speaking playstyles, but IOC is always there, be it me using it or other rogues, if you don't have it. You lose. Plain and simple.
problem with that is that I have never lost to a rogue using IoC, I dont NEED it because I know how to dodge and WHAT to dodge.
Again IOC is only for people who need the reassurance for something to fall back on. You dont run faster with it up, you dont make anyone run slower, you are still being kited with IoC up all that cant be done is you cant be cc'd and mitigate damage. You use this if you cant use LoS and dodge effectively. You also sit and spam cloud instead of using it as a finisher while chasing...
Build is good, but your build is useless against someone who knows how to play. problem with sly flourish is if you land it you get two hits off than they run no damage on them, DF you dont need to be on them and they will be ticking away from bleeds.
problem with that is that I have never lost to a rogue using IoC, I dont NEED it because I know how to dodge and WHAT to dodge.
Again IOC is only for people who need the reassurance for something to fall back on. You dont run faster with it up, you dont make anyone run slower, you are still being kited with IoC up all that cant be done is you cant be cc'd and mitigate damage. You use this if you cant use LoS and dodge effectively. You also sit and spam cloud instead of using it as a finisher while chasing...
Build is good, but your build is useless against someone who knows how to play. problem with sly flourish is if you land it you get two hits off than they run no damage on them, DF you dont need to be on them and they will be ticking away from bleeds.
The same can be said, I've never lost to a rogue that didn't bother using IOC.
LoL, I'm not going to bother arguing with you on IOC, it's your opinion VS mine, if you feel that way, sure. We'll just agree to disagree. (You don't have to be hitting someone kitting you to deal damage fyi, just being close to them with a specific skill lets you deal damage to them, and to be close to them you need to be cc immune.)
COS is best used as a starter from stealth, the only way anyone is able to prevent taking damage from it is dodging/moving away from you, wasting their stamina, which is what you want (or restealthing, which if you see in the video, knocking someone out of stealth is insanely easy). Then you open out of stealth.
If COS wasn't so broken, you'll see me play more like in the first video.
Again the same can be said about DF, if I know you're using DF I can simply hit IOC and tank it, dodge/walk away before your second attack. Do I need to remind you that you're animation locked if DF's 3rd combo strike doesn't land and that you still take damage while in said animation lock?
Damage wise, DF has more potential, but in terms of actual practicality, SF is easier to use and to land. That being said though, when you do land DF, for that split second you forget about any doubts you may have had about taking it over SF. It's damage is absolutely insane, and the DoT and tracking is just a bonus. I agree with strawbyz about IoC though, it is absolutely vital for PvP. Imagine a scenario where you're killing a Cleric (for example), and a CW comes up and CC's you outside of your vision, if you don't have IoC, the Cleric gets away and you get CC'ed to hell. With IoC, you remove the CC, become immune to anymore CC, reduce damage AND are able to chase the Cleric.
I want to try Smoke Bomb before I make an opinion on it, but my prediction is even that won't be better to use than IoC. Where you say you NEED CC, my opinion is that you NEED immunity to CC (i.e. some form of Protection, think Cloak of Shadows from WoW).
the truth is ioc doesnt make you unkitable. anyone that is good will jsut ourun you. Ims treaming right now so you can watch as I pwn all the IoC noobs
the truth is ioc doesnt make you unkitable. anyone that is good will jsut ourun you. Ims treaming right now so you can watch as I pwn all the IoC noobs
ROFL! You're not even LvL60, come back when you're LvL60 and have pvped extensively, PvP at lower Levels is absolutely not the same at LvL 60.
And this is absolutely why you think IOC is not worth it, when you're LvL 60, you will not live for more than 4 seconds without IOC. (Ok so I'm exaggerating a little, but you get the point)
Dude ive done nothing but pvp to level -_- IoC is not worth it. and wont be worth it at 60 either. if you are getting one shot its because they have better gear. if you are completely pooping on someone. you have better gear.
Dude ive done nothing but pvp to level -_- IoC is not worth it. and wont be worth it at 60 either. if you are getting one shot its because they have better gear. if you are completely pooping on someone. you have better gear.
Again, get to LvL60 and PvP extensively first.
While gear plays a role in survivability/damage, it is not the end all be all. Two crappy geared players will still take down each other quickly, damage scaling on encounters at LvL60 in relation to HP scaling is not balanced. This makes encounters inherently hit hard, resulting in very short TTKs than at lower leves. You would know this, if you were 60.
What you've said so far, is very relevant for low level PvP (I might disagree with you on some points, but regardless), so don't get me wrong, but at 60, it's a whole different ball game.
If you've done nothing but PvP to level, how have you kept up with gear? o.O
you get gear sometimes from pvping.. ive been destroying people with level 38 gear..... I dont always ge tpieces for me. and yes I will pvp extensively at 60 that is all I do I am the type to liek to be better than everyone. so i try my hardest. And game mechanics alone. IoC is not worth it. it doesnt help the fact that you cna be kited. if you watched my stream every rogue that IoC'd I just ran away from and he cant catch me. you have NO gap closer. Easy to pick you off. smokebomb is easily dodge and you have no bleed on me so how can you kill me if you cant even get to me? lol thus why I really believe you have only played against baddies and not someone good who knows how to counter a rogue.
I'm not saying youa rnt good or your build is bad. Just IoC is only for people who need reassurance they have a defensive to fall on. And if my at will is up and you have IoC up... my courage breaker just poops all over you. makes you 30% slower and 30% less damage and it goes through IoC.... so even if im not 60. youa re only stating reasons based off of mere baddies you play against. you havent faced anyone who min/max's AKA me, I messed with every build and every encounter even going into wicked reminder because i DIDNT want to only play , dazing strike, lashing blade , deft strike, DF, CoS\.
I use my jumping trick to chase instead of being a moron who just sits in one place and tries to spam CoS while they run away... You have to realize the mobility for a rogue is really bad. And you arnt facing people who know that. If you are able to get to someone and stick to them.. they are playing this game wrong.
Learn and practice DF, you will hate it at the start but it will be amazing once you can get better at it. Use jumping trick to get your last strike off, it lunges you forward. Little things that I have come to find help me destroy people and punish mistakes. I watched your videos and half the time you were tunnel visiong holding down left click. If you were fighting me you'd die. Easily kitable.\
But again not saying youa re bad or anything just havent min/maxed like I have, and I have been pvping since level 10 non stop... I have my full pvp set for 60 already.
But I do still take all builds into consideration, just I've already tried yours. Good to have IoC if you cant los and kite and know what to dodge. makes it easier for you.
I get a lot of compliments saying stuff like
"you are the best rogue I've seen play"
"Never seen a rogue move and hit like you do"
"How do you stay on me so well"
"you are hard to get off"
and this isnt remarks from bad players.. its actually people who knows how to counter rogues and realize if they make a mistake with me I punish it and take advantage of it. Practice makes perfect. Alot of people right now are predicatable.
the best one I see till this day is why people open out of stealth with lashing blade I still dont know.
And please remember I'm not trying to talk smack or say I'm better than you or anything. I actually respect people who take the time to learn rogues in this game and theorycraft. I still believe rogues have the highest skillcap to be good at in this game. So kudos for actually trying to discuss rogues and builds.
you get gear sometimes from pvping.. ive been destroying people with level 38 gear..... I dont always ge tpieces for me. and yes I will pvp extensively at 60 that is all I do I am the type to liek to be better than everyone. so i try my hardest. And game mechanics alone. IoC is not worth it. it doesnt help the fact that you cna be kited. if you watched my stream every rogue that IoC'd I just ran away from and he cant catch me. you have NO gap closer. Easy to pick you off. smokebomb is easily dodge and you have no bleed on me so how can you kill me if you cant even get to me? lol thus why I really believe you have only played against baddies and not someone good who knows how to counter a rogue.
I'm not saying youa rnt good or your build is bad. Just IoC is only for people who need reassurance they have a defensive to fall on. And if my at will is up and you have IoC up... my courage breaker just poops all over you. makes you 30% slower and 30% less damage and it goes through IoC.... so even if im not 60. youa re only stating reasons based off of mere baddies you play against. you havent faced anyone who min/max's AKA me, I messed with every build and every encounter even going into wicked reminder because i DIDNT want to only play , dazing strike, lashing blade , deft strike, DF, CoS\.
I use my jumping trick to chase instead of being a moron who just sits in one place and tries to spam CoS while they run away... You have to realize the mobility for a rogue is really bad. And you arnt facing people who know that. If you are able to get to someone and stick to them.. they are playing this game wrong.
Learn and practice DF, you will hate it at the start but it will be amazing once you can get better at it. Use jumping trick to get your last strike off, it lunges you forward. Little things that I have come to find help me destroy people and punish mistakes. I watched your videos and half the time you were tunnel visiong holding down left click. If you were fighting me you'd die. Easily kitable.\
But again not saying youa re bad or anything just havent min/maxed like I have, and I have been pvping since level 10 non stop... I have my full pvp set for 60 already.
oh boy where do I begin. Without sounding like a broken record, but get to 60, all your comments are based on under 60 PvP.
I barely need to be in melee range to damage you. Path of Blades + COS alone will kill you if you don't have IOC (with the right enchantments it will kill you a couple times over). You'll be able to stay out of melee range, but not POB nor COS.
Theory crafting Courage Breaker is all and well, but it's just that and FYI its -90% Dmg at rank 3, and if you're wasting your daily on courage breaker, I'll just dodge/run the debuff out, while I can't damage you, IOC is still up, so you're still not damaging me and you're now a daily down, you could have used shocking execution instead to maybe kill me but you just wasted it on CB? Sorry L2P moment right here.
Again if you like/prefer DF more power to you, we'll agree to disagree.
There are a lot of weapon/armour enchantments at LvL60 that buff/add variety to different skills that we have, that can make a relatively useless skills sub 60, quite overpowered at 60 itself. I've tested a number of these and am still testing a bunch of others. Have you?
Oh, FYI, there are a bunch of weapon enchantments that let you DOT targets.
I've gotta say, this thread has taught me a whole lot. I am going to use DF as my main at-will now, but I have to say, IoC is just too amazing in PvP to pass up. It's absolutely necessary for me personally, I just had a CW add me and ask me how on earth I dominated him that hard, and he was especially curious on that move and it's CD etc. That just goes to show how much of a difference it makes. The jump > Cloud of Steel thing is freakin' awesome too! Since I found this thread, my scores have been insane, and my PvP has improved immensely. So thank you to saythin AND strawbyx for your individual contributions.
I would like to have a conversation about dailies and passive skills too, as obviously Shocking Execution is a must have, but before you get to that level, is Courage Breaker a definite once you get it, and can anyone explain how exactly it works (I just got it, not used it yet)? As for passive, simply do not know whats good and whats bad, I still have the increased run speed and first attack bonus, but I wanna change them to something more useful.
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rhavialMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 8Arc User
edited May 2013
I think a lot of what's talked here is dependant on playstyle.
I personally almost never run heads up and try to fight on even terms. There is no reason why you should do that. I m mostly abusing positioning, out-tacting? (is that even a word) enemies instead of outplaying them. I'm the annoying guy who is always there to cap the point left alone, to kill the guy who is on a sniper position on a pillar or bridge, to stop their dude from getting our left alone point.
Sometimes I ll just jump into 4 people, smoke bomb them and restealth and run out and my team will destroy them while I m getting chased or even killed. I dont care about score (even though I m usually on a 12-3-30 score), I dont care about getting points. I care about winning, and the shadow strike build I 'm using reflects my playstyle.
Possibly Impossible to Catch could be better if I was playing another way. There doesnt have to be just one amazing this-is-better-than-everything-build. You could kill me 1v1, sure, but I don't think I ll ever give you the chance to :P
If any of you is playing League of Legends, I can relate my playstyle to a splitpushing bruiser, trying to get attention on me or get objectives while having pressence (teleport).
That said, CoB jumping is amazing, and I m working on my DF jumping before I can give out feedback.
Gear-wise, we don't have that many options. You should get all the pvp gear stuff, and just complete it with some seal rings, neck and belt. Going for mainly offensive stats, aka, Power, Critical, ArPen.
As for enchantments, I'm using movement speed on utility slots and power on offensive (since the pvp gear goes for mainly arpen). Probably health on defensive slots.
As for passives don't think I ll ever change from Invisible and Skillfull. Just amazing.
oh boy where do I begin. Without sounding like a broken record, but get to 60, all your comments are based on under 60 PvP.
I barely need to be in melee range to damage you. Path of Blades + COS alone will kill you if you don't have IOC (with the right enchantments it will kill you a couple times over). You'll be able to stay out of melee range, but not POB nor COS.
Theory crafting Courage Breaker is all and well, but it's just that and FYI its -90% Dmg at rank 3, and if you're wasting your daily on courage breaker, I'll just dodge/run the debuff out, while I can't damage you, IOC is still up, so you're still not damaging me and you're now a daily down, you could have used shocking execution instead to maybe kill me but you just wasted it on CB? Sorry L2P moment right here.
Again if you like/prefer DF more power to you, we'll agree to disagree.
There are a lot of weapon/armour enchantments at LvL60 that buff/add variety to different skills that we have, that can make a relatively useless skills sub 60, quite overpowered at 60 itself. I've tested a number of these and am still testing a bunch of others. Have you?
Oh, FYI, there are a bunch of weapon enchantments that let you DOT targets.
Don't even, your condescending tone says otherwise
Well if thats how you feel than I wont talk, I appreciate your posts and your arguments. Run out my Courage breaker? you can run... you move 30% slower the SLOWEST cripple in game. I will dominate 60 as well because people dont know how to min/max, and ive been doing it since 10....
DF is AMAZING and I promise once you guys get used to it and even incorparate my weaving technique. it makes it a WHOLE lot better. PROMISE! Making a video for it
Can anyone explain the PvP gear that people keep talking about to me? What currency does it cost, how much of it does it cost, where do you get it from, is it the best for PvP and what does it give?
Can anyone explain the PvP gear that people keep talking about to me? What currency does it cost, how much of it does it cost, where do you get it from, is it the best for PvP and what does it give?
trade of blades in protectors enclave. pvp gear you can buy with glory you earn from pvp.
Comments
I've been much into pvp lately so I'd like to share what I found.
Keep in mind that most of what I 'm about to say happen in pvp geared level 60 matches.
As for the build:
I m specced as Scoundrel, going for the in stealth out of stealth shenanigans.
For my passives I use Skillfull Infiltrator and Invisible Inflitrator. The restealth is amazing and it allows for easy 2v1 action.
For the dailies I'm afraid there is only 1 way to go. Shocking Execution for 1shotting people below half health and Lurker's Assault, mainly so I can kill GFs or sustained damage in big fights.
These are pretty much standard, as well as Cloud of Blades. If I see a rogue without these he probably won't concern me much.
For SF vs DF. I don't know what happens in your level bracket but, after I got a few gear pieces which made me a lot more durable, I find A LOT of my damage being Auto attack damage, or Sly Flourish. I can see your point over DF but for me, it is an actual way of damage.
For encounters, Smoke Bomb is a must and Lashing Blade is a must. The key point is Deft Strike. You say we NEED a gap closer. I don't find that especially true. I saw a build around here somewhere with Shadow Strike. Tried it and loved it.
I get 15% ms from Skillfull and quite an amount from my pvp boots so I don't really have trouble catching people.
Plus I get double the stealth which is an extra 40% damage with scoundrel paragon, making my SF hurt.
While you have the problem of positioning, I tend to love sky attacks, aka, jumping on people from pillars and bridges.
After you get close to someone the main combo is Smoke Bomb with the slow and then immediately shadowstrike. Restealth and start hitting them till they are close to exiting the smoke, then LB. Finish them up with CoB.
While it does require a bit of work in positioning to make it work it gives me a LOT of combat power.
I suggest you try it
Great post! I would love to try it out liek I said though NEED a gap closer. When you fight good people just simply running after them wont get you to them. The main point from DF to SF is that any good person WONT let you auto attack them, your damage will come from instant casts aka LB.
So my posts is purely based off of fighting good people who know how to counter rogues. Easy people who jsut stand there and let you damage than is not even worth mentioning. Trying to kill a CW without deft is impossible against any good ones.
I will go into the execution tree or scoundrel debating yet. your post is very detailed and I can see that you have experienced a great deal of matches to be able to putforth your knowledge but I do believe in a situation where someone who knows excactly how to counter rogues, your build will be flawed. the whole downfall to rogues is the fact that we stop when using things. Peopel who realzied that know that all they have to do is dodge the correct thing and than can kite us FOREVER we have limited resources to what we can do and how well we can stick to someone. When cw's figure that out they know exactly when to put out damage and when not to. Also another flaw is, you can be seen while stealthed. so its easy to dodge your opener when you restealth.
If we were completely invisible to the human eye than I would take your scenarios in to consideration BUT that isn't the case , you have a trail of shadow the follows you in stealth. very easy to catch. when people figure that out, you cant open on them
That's the same story with DF too. The first two attacks are quto's, and as you said, any good player will NOT let stand still to let you get them attacks off, nor' will they let you get that third one off. The maximum you might get before people try to run and your DF gets stopped is 1 auto. Sly Flourish can have at least two autos in that time. And I agree with the guy that Rhavial where he says that ALOT of a rogues damage is indeed from auto attacks. I wouldn't say 50%, but very easily 25% of a TR's damage comes from their at-wills.
I strongly disagree with this. I've played against and dueled many very good control wizards and have come out on top, even without my daily more times than I can count.
Dorks with Tranquilizers
If the enemy team has a GOOD cleric, and you don't - things suddenly become a lot harder for a Rogue. So many times I've done tons of damage to someone, only to get jumped on and all the damage I did gets healed up. I can't remember the last time I actually got healed by a Cleric in a PvP scenario. I've found a build that works for me (encouter/at-will/daily wise), I run Deft Strike, Lashing Blade and Impossible to Catch. Dailies are Bloodbath and Lurkers Assault (for now, need to get higher for SE) and at-wills are Sly Flourish and Cloud of Steel (SF just seems sooooo much more better than DF, that I've made my mind up about). Only thing I need a little bit of advice on is passives, I currently have the increased Stealth run speed one, and the first attack increase bonus, but I want to change them out for some more PvP orientated ones - any suggestions?
Do you still stand behind your original post when it comes to gear and focusing on power. I found that the majority of gear for rogues is not focused on this. If this has changed at all let us know. Also, can you give some direction on what the secondary stats would be good to get for rogue gear?
Thanks.
Naw, good people will make it so you cant even touch them, I try to use two strikes before I get to someone so I can sue my third striek as a gap closer to force a dodge or blink. and damage wise, a tick of bleeds hit just a little less than an auto attakc and CAN crit, I used to hate it and want to go back to sly until I found out the potential of DF. Yes the team does take a great part, but seriously, I dont think you guys have played against someone good who knows what they are doing, I only met 2 control wizards who knew how to roll thier blinks and cc's perfectly. havent met another good rogue yet.
CC - Yes, Smoke bomb is great for party fights, but for 1v1s Dazing strike is better, its a CC + DMG.
DMG - LR: Not totally necessary, while burst is nice, it's easily dodged also. It's great for party fights in mid, when you need to burn someone down though.
Gap closer - Deft: Again not totally necessary, fighting CWs isn't just about "gap closing" but rather, forcing them to burn all 3 blinks.
IOC - You need this, it doesn't just grant CC immunity, it lets you break CC and limited Damage mitigation and when used from stealth makes you totally immune to damage. Proper timing of this lets you mitigate nukes/CCs. When used with specific enchantments you'll never replace it for PvP.
DF is only good if you're fighting someone who wants to fight (ie staying in range) / rooted / or too stupid to dodge. So either you use DF in a party fight where your CW/DCs are rooting them, or fighting scrubs. Other than that SF is the way to go.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zH-XxSFXFVY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nr-gWxQ0imc
You'll see two very different set of encounter abilities and roughly speaking playstyles, but IOC is always there, be it me using it or other rogues, if you don't have it. You lose. Plain and simple.
Powers/Feats
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otdEC4jCCmY
problem with that is that I have never lost to a rogue using IoC, I dont NEED it because I know how to dodge and WHAT to dodge.
Again IOC is only for people who need the reassurance for something to fall back on. You dont run faster with it up, you dont make anyone run slower, you are still being kited with IoC up all that cant be done is you cant be cc'd and mitigate damage. You use this if you cant use LoS and dodge effectively. You also sit and spam cloud instead of using it as a finisher while chasing...
Build is good, but your build is useless against someone who knows how to play. problem with sly flourish is if you land it you get two hits off than they run no damage on them, DF you dont need to be on them and they will be ticking away from bleeds.
The same can be said, I've never lost to a rogue that didn't bother using IOC.
LoL, I'm not going to bother arguing with you on IOC, it's your opinion VS mine, if you feel that way, sure. We'll just agree to disagree. (You don't have to be hitting someone kitting you to deal damage fyi, just being close to them with a specific skill lets you deal damage to them, and to be close to them you need to be cc immune.)
COS is best used as a starter from stealth, the only way anyone is able to prevent taking damage from it is dodging/moving away from you, wasting their stamina, which is what you want (or restealthing, which if you see in the video, knocking someone out of stealth is insanely easy). Then you open out of stealth.
If COS wasn't so broken, you'll see me play more like in the first video.
Again the same can be said about DF, if I know you're using DF I can simply hit IOC and tank it, dodge/walk away before your second attack. Do I need to remind you that you're animation locked if DF's 3rd combo strike doesn't land and that you still take damage while in said animation lock?
I want to try Smoke Bomb before I make an opinion on it, but my prediction is even that won't be better to use than IoC. Where you say you NEED CC, my opinion is that you NEED immunity to CC (i.e. some form of Protection, think Cloak of Shadows from WoW).
ROFL! You're not even LvL60, come back when you're LvL60 and have pvped extensively, PvP at lower Levels is absolutely not the same at LvL 60.
And this is absolutely why you think IOC is not worth it, when you're LvL 60, you will not live for more than 4 seconds without IOC. (Ok so I'm exaggerating a little, but you get the point)
Again, get to LvL60 and PvP extensively first.
While gear plays a role in survivability/damage, it is not the end all be all. Two crappy geared players will still take down each other quickly, damage scaling on encounters at LvL60 in relation to HP scaling is not balanced. This makes encounters inherently hit hard, resulting in very short TTKs than at lower leves. You would know this, if you were 60.
What you've said so far, is very relevant for low level PvP (I might disagree with you on some points, but regardless), so don't get me wrong, but at 60, it's a whole different ball game.
you get gear sometimes from pvping.. ive been destroying people with level 38 gear..... I dont always ge tpieces for me. and yes I will pvp extensively at 60 that is all I do I am the type to liek to be better than everyone. so i try my hardest. And game mechanics alone. IoC is not worth it. it doesnt help the fact that you cna be kited. if you watched my stream every rogue that IoC'd I just ran away from and he cant catch me. you have NO gap closer. Easy to pick you off. smokebomb is easily dodge and you have no bleed on me so how can you kill me if you cant even get to me? lol thus why I really believe you have only played against baddies and not someone good who knows how to counter a rogue.
I'm not saying youa rnt good or your build is bad. Just IoC is only for people who need reassurance they have a defensive to fall on. And if my at will is up and you have IoC up... my courage breaker just poops all over you. makes you 30% slower and 30% less damage and it goes through IoC.... so even if im not 60. youa re only stating reasons based off of mere baddies you play against. you havent faced anyone who min/max's AKA me, I messed with every build and every encounter even going into wicked reminder because i DIDNT want to only play , dazing strike, lashing blade , deft strike, DF, CoS\.
I use my jumping trick to chase instead of being a moron who just sits in one place and tries to spam CoS while they run away... You have to realize the mobility for a rogue is really bad. And you arnt facing people who know that. If you are able to get to someone and stick to them.. they are playing this game wrong.
Learn and practice DF, you will hate it at the start but it will be amazing once you can get better at it. Use jumping trick to get your last strike off, it lunges you forward. Little things that I have come to find help me destroy people and punish mistakes. I watched your videos and half the time you were tunnel visiong holding down left click. If you were fighting me you'd die. Easily kitable.\
But again not saying youa re bad or anything just havent min/maxed like I have, and I have been pvping since level 10 non stop... I have my full pvp set for 60 already.
I get a lot of compliments saying stuff like
"you are the best rogue I've seen play"
"Never seen a rogue move and hit like you do"
"How do you stay on me so well"
"you are hard to get off"
and this isnt remarks from bad players.. its actually people who knows how to counter rogues and realize if they make a mistake with me I punish it and take advantage of it. Practice makes perfect. Alot of people right now are predicatable.
the best one I see till this day is why people open out of stealth with lashing blade I still dont know.
anyways off to work
oh boy where do I begin. Without sounding like a broken record, but get to 60, all your comments are based on under 60 PvP.
I barely need to be in melee range to damage you. Path of Blades + COS alone will kill you if you don't have IOC (with the right enchantments it will kill you a couple times over). You'll be able to stay out of melee range, but not POB nor COS.
Theory crafting Courage Breaker is all and well, but it's just that and FYI its -90% Dmg at rank 3, and if you're wasting your daily on courage breaker, I'll just dodge/run the debuff out, while I can't damage you, IOC is still up, so you're still not damaging me and you're now a daily down, you could have used shocking execution instead to maybe kill me but you just wasted it on CB? Sorry L2P moment right here.
Again if you like/prefer DF more power to you, we'll agree to disagree.
There are a lot of weapon/armour enchantments at LvL60 that buff/add variety to different skills that we have, that can make a relatively useless skills sub 60, quite overpowered at 60 itself. I've tested a number of these and am still testing a bunch of others. Have you?
Oh, FYI, there are a bunch of weapon enchantments that let you DOT targets.
Don't even, your condescending tone says otherwise
I would like to have a conversation about dailies and passive skills too, as obviously Shocking Execution is a must have, but before you get to that level, is Courage Breaker a definite once you get it, and can anyone explain how exactly it works (I just got it, not used it yet)? As for passive, simply do not know whats good and whats bad, I still have the increased run speed and first attack bonus, but I wanna change them to something more useful.
I personally almost never run heads up and try to fight on even terms. There is no reason why you should do that. I m mostly abusing positioning, out-tacting? (is that even a word) enemies instead of outplaying them. I'm the annoying guy who is always there to cap the point left alone, to kill the guy who is on a sniper position on a pillar or bridge, to stop their dude from getting our left alone point.
Sometimes I ll just jump into 4 people, smoke bomb them and restealth and run out and my team will destroy them while I m getting chased or even killed. I dont care about score (even though I m usually on a 12-3-30 score), I dont care about getting points. I care about winning, and the shadow strike build I 'm using reflects my playstyle.
Possibly Impossible to Catch could be better if I was playing another way. There doesnt have to be just one amazing this-is-better-than-everything-build. You could kill me 1v1, sure, but I don't think I ll ever give you the chance to :P
If any of you is playing League of Legends, I can relate my playstyle to a splitpushing bruiser, trying to get attention on me or get objectives while having pressence (teleport).
That said, CoB jumping is amazing, and I m working on my DF jumping before I can give out feedback.
Gear-wise, we don't have that many options. You should get all the pvp gear stuff, and just complete it with some seal rings, neck and belt. Going for mainly offensive stats, aka, Power, Critical, ArPen.
As for enchantments, I'm using movement speed on utility slots and power on offensive (since the pvp gear goes for mainly arpen). Probably health on defensive slots.
As for passives don't think I ll ever change from Invisible and Skillfull. Just amazing.
Well if thats how you feel than I wont talk, I appreciate your posts and your arguments. Run out my Courage breaker? you can run... you move 30% slower the SLOWEST cripple in game. I will dominate 60 as well because people dont know how to min/max, and ive been doing it since 10....
DF is AMAZING and I promise once you guys get used to it and even incorparate my weaving technique. it makes it a WHOLE lot better. PROMISE! Making a video for it
trade of blades in protectors enclave. pvp gear you can buy with glory you earn from pvp.