I could not wait to be 60 so I can go epic dungeons... but... this thing... man, I dont even talk about it. This killed the game for me. I feel there is no point doing PvE concent.
Very bad design choice.
It really enforces the p2w model, where you can just buy all the best gear in the game with money, by making all the best gear in the game BoE. The bad part is, that it also enforces the greed mentality by everyone rolling need on items that their class can not use.
Even at my low level, several times already losing out on boss drops to other classes gave me reason enough to not bother with dungeons anymore. But, I have enough fun with the solo content and foundry that I'll just stick to that.
It really enforces the p2w model, where you can just buy all the best gear in the game with money, by making all the best gear in the game BoE. The bad part is, that it also enforces the greed mentality by everyone rolling need on items that their class can not use.
Even at my low level, several times already losing out on boss drops to other classes gave me reason enough to not bother with dungeons anymore. But, I have enough fun with the solo content and foundry that I'll just stick to that.
Some boss drops are in fact, not locked to a class for use. It is possible to overlook this or feel it exasperates the issues.
Call me an elitist <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> or whatever but the whole point in games for ME, is trying to be better than others and show off! Skipping to the AH with your wallet is just..
So you're simply upset that the player with the fatter wallet can "try to be better than others and show off" in game as well as out?
"Well, he may have a nicer house and faster car then me IRL, but at least I gots the epic lootz!" How bitter!
Don't you have a financial district to go occupy somewhere?
People who are playing this game are seasoned vet's of the genre, for the most part. So that ever present rush to max level will ruin this game for them. I'm a very casual MMO player. I've been playing since early head-start; My highest toon is lv-25. But even at my snail's pace, I'll be level capped in no time. Without a reason to play at end game is going to be the biggest nemesis of NW. I don't think they can pump out the content, classes, pvp maps,bugs, balances, etc., fast enough. Also, the HEAVY handed instancing in NW is really taking away from building a growing community on-line.
I dunno guys, I hope it works itself out, but I have doubts.
Agree with this 100%
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] "By small and simple things are great things brought to pass." Alma 37:6
I think arguing back and forth on the merits or lack thereof of BOE or who 'deserves" what isn't going to get us anywhere. Something that few of us are actually okay with is having a CW roll need on a GWF sword win it and announce he just wanted to win it to <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> others off.
Class locked loot drops would reduce this I think, all cryptic would have to do is provide a chance for a class specific item that is locked to people who are part of that class to drop and if no person is of that class it can't be picked up.
Or we can go back to seeing who can make the snappiest comeback. :rolleyes:
I keep posting my solution for this (which is really good) but it keeps getting drowned in the mass of posts:
Let only classes that can use an item NEED on it, but any items NEEDed on become bound to character and cannot be unbound.
Also make their price 0 so that the only reason to NEED something is if it's an upgrade to you. Then people would actually roll GREED if they just want to sell it (or give it to an alt).
I dont particularly understand why people like the BoE epics in their game. You're going to have excactly what's going on in Tera if you stay with this model. Evenetually new players will be alienated and be forced to grind Astral Diamonds instead of running instances like they should to progress for gear, cause the playerbase will all of a sudden dictate that you must have gear with an item level higher than the instance you're running requires, just look at Tera's endgame, case in point right there.
Not to mention if you can just buy your way to the best gear? Why even play? Just buy everything, run a couple instances, get bored cause nothing you need drops cause you have everything you can possibly want. that just sounds boring to me.
You mean just look at every single MMO with multiple currencies right? Every game suffers from this once a significant portion of the community have reached a certain level of gear. They want to speed run everything and so they don't want to run with anyone who doesn't have a similar level of gear or better. Instead of dungeons being about direct gear progression up they become an exercise in currency farming.
This is not a BoE epic problem, this is a multiple currency problem. Any game with multiple currencies will see this behavior as people try to stockpile as much currency as they can with as little effort as possible.
I find it funny that the people complaining the loudest about this are the ones who are against spending any money on the game. They somehow don't realize that this system benefits them more than anyone. They get to run the instances they want to run, get drops they can use, and get drops they can sell for currency that would otherwise normally come from spending money. The best of both worlds right? Unless your goal is to collect the best gear in the game then stand in the middle of town afk for a few months before quitting the game, then I guess you can just buy the best gear and quit the game right away and save us all the headache.
edit: Please note I am very much in favor of need rolls being class restricted as well as character/account bound gear drops. I simply don't feel this issue is really all that important either way however, because I enjoy content for the pleasure of playing through it and I only care about what gear I'm wearing - not what gear anyone else is wearing or how they got it.
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sarsparilla1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 27Arc User
edited May 2013
I think sub based games are so much better. You eliminate all the shenanigans of the game company constantly scrapping to make a buck.
You mean just look at every single MMO with multiple currencies right? Every game suffers from this once a significant portion of the community have reached a certain level of gear. They want to speed run everything and so they don't want to run with anyone who doesn't have a similar level of gear or better. Instead of dungeons being about direct gear progression up they become an exercise in currency farming.
This is not a BoE epic problem, this is a multiple currency problem. Any game with multiple currencies will see this behavior as people try to stockpile as much currency as they can with as little effort as possible.
I find it funny that the people complaining the loudest about this are the ones who are against spending any money on the game. They somehow don't realize that this system benefits them more than anyone. They get to run the instances they want to run, get drops they can use, and get drops they can sell for currency that would otherwise normally come from spending money. The best of both worlds right? Unless your goal is to collect the best gear in the game then stand in the middle of town afk for a few months before quitting the game, then I guess you can just buy the best gear and quit the game right away and save us all the headache.
edit: Please note I am very much in favor of need rolls being class restricted as well as character/account bound gear drops. I simply don't feel this issue is really all that important either way however, because I enjoy content for the pleasure of playing through it and I only care about what gear I'm wearing - not what gear anyone else is wearing or how they got it.
I could not agree more zrye. Tera is the perfect example of why NOT to do make epic drops from dungeons BoE. When it comes down to it, WoW had the correct model as far as loot goes. Sure, there can be some BoE epics, but those from dungeon bosses and such should be BoP. Otherwise, people can essentially pay to win and newer players will be alienated from dungeons for having a lower gear score. It completely takes the fun out of striving to complete a dungeon to get that piece of gear that others dont have. Although it is a business and BoE's encourage those to buy astral diamonds, this will eventually lead to a decreased player base, and many unhappy gamers.
The point of having the best gear "gated to the 1%" is to give us a reason to play, for those of us that like gear based progression you say "yeah cool go do it anyways who are you competing with?" and that's the silliest thing I've ever heard. I have absolutely no motivation to take multiple pulls on any given boss to go after that one shiny piece of loot when in the back of my mind i know I could just save myself several hours and pull out my credit card, but then what the hell is the point in the first place? I did play WoW once upon a time, and it was fun because it had challenges that when we won we felt good, nobody could say "yeah no reason to wipe for 3 months you could have gotten astral walker by paying 9.99$ to blizzard" when i know i'm farming bosses rolling against other people and working through crappy pugs if there's not a reason to farm the content then i have no motivation.
same problem with pvp, honor farming wasn't great but it made sure pvp was a mandatory requirement to be good at pvp..this idea of all of you defending this system because you don't want to PLAY THE FREAKING GAME is just asinine to me, I'm a full time student working on my Lsat prep so I don't have a ton of time either but that sure as hell doesn't mean i think i deserve to be able to get the highest tier of loot.
tl;dr winning at the game should involve playing it not paying for it
The point of having the best gear "gated to the 1%" is to give us a reason to play, for those of us that like gear based progression you say "yeah cool go do it anyways who are you competing with?" and that's the silliest thing I've ever heard. I have absolutely no motivation to take multiple pulls on any given boss to go after that one shiny piece of loot when in the back of my mind i know I could just save myself several hours and pull out my credit card, but then what the hell is the point in the first place? I did play WoW once upon a time, and it was fun because it had challenges that when we won we felt good, nobody could say "yeah no reason to wipe for 3 months you could have gotten astral walker by paying 9.99$ to blizzard" when i know i'm farming bosses rolling against other people and working through crappy pugs if there's not a reason to farm the content then i have no motivation.
same problem with pvp, honor farming wasn't great but it made sure pvp was a mandatory requirement to be good at pvp..this idea of all of you defending this system because you don't want to PLAY THE FREAKING GAME is just asinine to me, I'm a full time student working on my Lsat prep so I don't have a ton of time either but that sure as hell doesn't mean i think i deserve to be able to get the highest tier of loot.
tl;dr winning at the game should involve playing it not paying for it
This 100%. I could not agree more.
I know PWE is greedy but this model is just plain silly. They could fix it so easily too. The sad part is I know they won't. They would rather rake in the cash for 3-4 months and then let the game die out. Sad - this game has so much potential but it's going to go straight down the toilet due to a few lines of stupid and greedy code.
Okay, Technically you arent forced to do anything. But lets look at what the majority of the playerbase does in games like that, In tera, when i came back i had some Tier 12 gear that was enchanted, And i had some nexus' under my belt and so on, I went into ACNM to try and do a little grinding, I got kicked a total of 3 times because my weapon didnt glow. that's basically 3 hours i spend doing absolutely nothing, If you think that the player base doesnt dictate what you have to do in order to even be apart of the most mediocre content in the game, i'm sorry but your mistaken. It's a known issue and the reason why many people have quit Tera after reaching max level.
In order to get anything done in Tera, i just had to wait till 10pm every night save wednesday to do a nexus run in which i had to turn around and sell scrolls to get around 3-4k gold. plus dailies i had an income of about 5k per day, which is nothing in that game.
It's a side effect of the company trying to keep a steady cash flow going, and players who do not get in on the ground floor while content is new, will be left out to dry and alienated by the community for not having what they view as an easy buy on the Auction House.
Wow, people actually bother to kick in ACNM? That's hilarious. I que with my priest just because disaster groups are fun to carry on an over-geared and over-experienced priest.
You know how I got my gear? I ran Nexus with my guildies, for us it was fun cause it meant most of the guild could play together and joke around (cause that content is a joke) rather than trying to 3-5man the raid for maximum loots. I got my credits for my priest staff, I got the armor as drops and I was wearing t14 fodder. When I got +6 on things, I went into acnm, got my *** whooped by the content but kept at it. Meanwhile farmed ebon/lot for mes etc. Nowadays you can get in one week the equivalent of +9 weapon and chestpiece from dailies plus mes from nexus etc etc etc. It's a heck of a lot easier and no reason to show up anywhere in no t12s.
And not a penny was spent on my priest or my zerg from real money and all their gear was farmed in content. But then again, I wasn't foolish enough to go into acnm hoping to grind gear (grind what, t13s?! the enigmatics drop from achm which you are not completing in a pug in t12s). Nexus is there in that game because they only have the two dungeons. They do NOT have dungeon progression and that is the real issue with that game.
But, as I said, I started in October, I have 4 fully geared characters and my first two got geared from drops and credits I farmed, I did not farm gold for them. BoE or BoP I easily got my gear the old-fashioned way. But hey, making friends while leveling and finding a nice guild is indeed super hard work.
Games with BoP gear still have loads of pugs who are so insecure they kick you for not having the gear that drops in the dungeon.
That's a part of mmo life, bop does not suddenly get rid of it.
And I'd never want to play with people who kick cause your weapon is not glowing red... but I'd totally kick someone for having crappy stats on weapon and crappy crystals, cause that shows they cannot be bothered to learn the game or their class.
Some boss drops are in fact, not locked to a class for use. It is possible to overlook this or feel it exasperates the issues.
The funniest thing happened today. A purple ring dropped, I focus on crit/recovery/power/defense and it was power/crit/recovery, and the wizard got mad I won (cleric) because the ring said "slavemaster ring of control"... and that means it was just for wizards. I just about passed out laughing.
The point of having the best gear "gated to the 1%" is to give us a reason to play, for those of us that like gear based progression you say "yeah cool go do it anyways who are you competing with?" and that's the silliest thing I've ever heard. I have absolutely no motivation to take multiple pulls on any given boss to go after that one shiny piece of loot when in the back of my mind i know I could just save myself several hours and pull out my credit card, but then what the hell is the point in the first place? I did play WoW once upon a time, and it was fun because it had challenges that when we won we felt good, nobody could say "yeah no reason to wipe for 3 months you could have gotten astral walker by paying 9.99$ to blizzard" when i know i'm farming bosses rolling against other people and working through crappy pugs if there's not a reason to farm the content then i have no motivation.
same problem with pvp, honor farming wasn't great but it made sure pvp was a mandatory requirement to be good at pvp..this idea of all of you defending this system because you don't want to PLAY THE FREAKING GAME is just asinine to me, I'm a full time student working on my Lsat prep so I don't have a ton of time either but that sure as hell doesn't mean i think i deserve to be able to get the highest tier of loot.
tl;dr winning at the game should involve playing it not paying for it
My difficulty with boss drops being BoE (and being able to needed on by everyone) is more of a social one: It makes me develop resentment toward other players in the community. One thing I liked about Neverwinter is that there is an amazing number of genuinely nice and interesting people, especially for a MMO, and in particular for a F2P one.
Doing a dungeon with random people who then snatch the one drop that is an upgrade for my character, after I passed on their stuff, just so that they can sell it in the AH is making me feel resentful. It's not so much of a practical problem. I sit on almost 20M ADs and can buy more if I needed them. But I don't enjoy environments where you have the choice between being the victim that others take advantage of, and behaving as anti-social as others to prevent that from happening.
There is another side to this too, though. This system stimulates the AD based AH, which I speculate may be the actual reason for this. This is obviously desirable for a number of very different reasons: It motivates people to buy Zen and exchange them for ADs, it allows free players to make large amounts of ADs by playing the game a lot, and the combination of this will eventually get the AD/Zen rate down to 100-200:1, which increases the value of ADs and makes the in-game AD rewards relatively more valuable, thus lowering the cash store prices (relatively) for players who do not spend money.
I guess the best approach for now is to adopt a mindset of having a 20% chance to get whatever item drops. If class X rolls needs on my stuff and gets it, I will roll need on their stuff, sell it and then buy my item. But yes, this creates the "everything goes!" kind of Wild West environment that does not help to create a friendly, social community.
My difficulty with boss drops being BoE (and being able to needed on by everyone) is more of a social one: It makes me develop resentment toward other players in the community. One thing I liked about Neverwinter is that there is an amazing number of genuinely nice and interesting people, especially for a MMO, and in particular for a F2P one.
Doing a dungeon with random people who then snatch the one drop that is an upgrade for my character, after I passed on their stuff, just so that they can sell it in the AH is making me feel resentful. It's not so much of a practical problem. I sit on almost 20M ADs and can buy more if I needed them. But I don't enjoy environments where you have the choice between being the victim that others take advantage of, and behaving as anti-social as others to prevent that from happening.
This is the crux of it. I understand it is F2P and they need to make mooney but there should be some limitations to it. Having a system that lets anyone roll need on an item even if they cannot use it because it is class restricted will do nothing but tend to have negative effects on the group unless everyone agreed ahead of time to do so. Which in turn will have a negative effect on the community. This is supposed to be an mmo so would be nice if they had aspects in place that aren't a possible detriment to the community. I mean for god's sake this is pretty much a staple in every mmo anymore.
Comments
It really enforces the p2w model, where you can just buy all the best gear in the game with money, by making all the best gear in the game BoE. The bad part is, that it also enforces the greed mentality by everyone rolling need on items that their class can not use.
Even at my low level, several times already losing out on boss drops to other classes gave me reason enough to not bother with dungeons anymore. But, I have enough fun with the solo content and foundry that I'll just stick to that.
Some boss drops are in fact, not locked to a class for use. It is possible to overlook this or feel it exasperates the issues.
So you're simply upset that the player with the fatter wallet can "try to be better than others and show off" in game as well as out?
"Well, he may have a nicer house and faster car then me IRL, but at least I gots the epic lootz!" How bitter!
Don't you have a financial district to go occupy somewhere?
Agree with this 100%
"By small and simple things are great things brought to pass." Alma 37:6
Class locked loot drops would reduce this I think, all cryptic would have to do is provide a chance for a class specific item that is locked to people who are part of that class to drop and if no person is of that class it can't be picked up.
Or we can go back to seeing who can make the snappiest comeback. :rolleyes:
Also make their price 0 so that the only reason to NEED something is if it's an upgrade to you. Then people would actually roll GREED if they just want to sell it (or give it to an alt).
You mean just look at every single MMO with multiple currencies right? Every game suffers from this once a significant portion of the community have reached a certain level of gear. They want to speed run everything and so they don't want to run with anyone who doesn't have a similar level of gear or better. Instead of dungeons being about direct gear progression up they become an exercise in currency farming.
This is not a BoE epic problem, this is a multiple currency problem. Any game with multiple currencies will see this behavior as people try to stockpile as much currency as they can with as little effort as possible.
I find it funny that the people complaining the loudest about this are the ones who are against spending any money on the game. They somehow don't realize that this system benefits them more than anyone. They get to run the instances they want to run, get drops they can use, and get drops they can sell for currency that would otherwise normally come from spending money. The best of both worlds right? Unless your goal is to collect the best gear in the game then stand in the middle of town afk for a few months before quitting the game, then I guess you can just buy the best gear and quit the game right away and save us all the headache.
edit: Please note I am very much in favor of need rolls being class restricted as well as character/account bound gear drops. I simply don't feel this issue is really all that important either way however, because I enjoy content for the pleasure of playing through it and I only care about what gear I'm wearing - not what gear anyone else is wearing or how they got it.
same problem with pvp, honor farming wasn't great but it made sure pvp was a mandatory requirement to be good at pvp..this idea of all of you defending this system because you don't want to PLAY THE FREAKING GAME is just asinine to me, I'm a full time student working on my Lsat prep so I don't have a ton of time either but that sure as hell doesn't mean i think i deserve to be able to get the highest tier of loot.
tl;dr winning at the game should involve playing it not paying for it
This 100%. I could not agree more.
I know PWE is greedy but this model is just plain silly. They could fix it so easily too. The sad part is I know they won't. They would rather rake in the cash for 3-4 months and then let the game die out. Sad - this game has so much potential but it's going to go straight down the toilet due to a few lines of stupid and greedy code.
Wow, people actually bother to kick in ACNM? That's hilarious. I que with my priest just because disaster groups are fun to carry on an over-geared and over-experienced priest.
You know how I got my gear? I ran Nexus with my guildies, for us it was fun cause it meant most of the guild could play together and joke around (cause that content is a joke) rather than trying to 3-5man the raid for maximum loots. I got my credits for my priest staff, I got the armor as drops and I was wearing t14 fodder. When I got +6 on things, I went into acnm, got my *** whooped by the content but kept at it. Meanwhile farmed ebon/lot for mes etc. Nowadays you can get in one week the equivalent of +9 weapon and chestpiece from dailies plus mes from nexus etc etc etc. It's a heck of a lot easier and no reason to show up anywhere in no t12s.
And not a penny was spent on my priest or my zerg from real money and all their gear was farmed in content. But then again, I wasn't foolish enough to go into acnm hoping to grind gear (grind what, t13s?! the enigmatics drop from achm which you are not completing in a pug in t12s). Nexus is there in that game because they only have the two dungeons. They do NOT have dungeon progression and that is the real issue with that game.
But, as I said, I started in October, I have 4 fully geared characters and my first two got geared from drops and credits I farmed, I did not farm gold for them. BoE or BoP I easily got my gear the old-fashioned way. But hey, making friends while leveling and finding a nice guild is indeed super hard work.
Games with BoP gear still have loads of pugs who are so insecure they kick you for not having the gear that drops in the dungeon.
That's a part of mmo life, bop does not suddenly get rid of it.
And I'd never want to play with people who kick cause your weapon is not glowing red... but I'd totally kick someone for having crappy stats on weapon and crappy crystals, cause that shows they cannot be bothered to learn the game or their class.
The funniest thing happened today. A purple ring dropped, I focus on crit/recovery/power/defense and it was power/crit/recovery, and the wizard got mad I won (cleric) because the ring said "slavemaster ring of control"... and that means it was just for wizards. I just about passed out laughing.
Well said!
Doing a dungeon with random people who then snatch the one drop that is an upgrade for my character, after I passed on their stuff, just so that they can sell it in the AH is making me feel resentful. It's not so much of a practical problem. I sit on almost 20M ADs and can buy more if I needed them. But I don't enjoy environments where you have the choice between being the victim that others take advantage of, and behaving as anti-social as others to prevent that from happening.
There is another side to this too, though. This system stimulates the AD based AH, which I speculate may be the actual reason for this. This is obviously desirable for a number of very different reasons: It motivates people to buy Zen and exchange them for ADs, it allows free players to make large amounts of ADs by playing the game a lot, and the combination of this will eventually get the AD/Zen rate down to 100-200:1, which increases the value of ADs and makes the in-game AD rewards relatively more valuable, thus lowering the cash store prices (relatively) for players who do not spend money.
I guess the best approach for now is to adopt a mindset of having a 20% chance to get whatever item drops. If class X rolls needs on my stuff and gets it, I will roll need on their stuff, sell it and then buy my item. But yes, this creates the "everything goes!" kind of Wild West environment that does not help to create a friendly, social community.
This is the crux of it. I understand it is F2P and they need to make mooney but there should be some limitations to it. Having a system that lets anyone roll need on an item even if they cannot use it because it is class restricted will do nothing but tend to have negative effects on the group unless everyone agreed ahead of time to do so. Which in turn will have a negative effect on the community. This is supposed to be an mmo so would be nice if they had aspects in place that aren't a possible detriment to the community. I mean for god's sake this is pretty much a staple in every mmo anymore.
They designed it that way so they empower me to do so. Nothing wrong with it and Im making AD like crazy