Indeed, I forget the AD Price but they were sold at the very same vendor that sells ID Scrolls for Astral Diamonds, on the outside of the Seven Suns Coster Market. The few I looted were not bound, so that means they could potentially be sold on the Market. I do not recall if the AD Bought ones are bound or not but I know the ID Scrolls weren't, for I bought several with my foundry tip ADs and gave them to players.
my main problem, and i guess the main problem of most of the people that argue against rez scrolls is raid encounters.
in all mmo's, there are two stages in raids/larger dungeons/whatever you call them:
progression and farm.
sure, in house the devs said that they can do the content, the question is can they do it in fresh equip or do they have to farm beforehand for weeks to equip all the party/raid members till they start killing the last boss.
in most games, a fresh 100%group rez IN THE MIDDLE OF THE COMBAT is the differance between a clear and a wipe.
the problem that arises with those scrolls imo is thus this: a group with enough money to have 1scroll/boss can clear the dungeon as soon as they hit the level to do it, this allows them to farm the gear of the dungeon from the very moment they hit the required level. this in turn makes the next run that much easier, if their equip isn't still on par then they can clear it again using real world $$ till they get enough equip to clear it without and etc.
so my suggestion is this: do EITHER (not all, just 1) of those 3:
1)make group rez scrolls unavailable for the tougher content of the game
2)make them available but all those rezzed will be locked out of the battle like they would have been if they went to a campfire and back again.
3)remove "lockout" from boss fights if you have to run back from the campfire to them
you yourself described them as not a p2w option because
If one chooses not to use ress scrolls or cannot afford them, then they will just simply respawn at the nearest respawn point.
this is NOT TRUE. edit: i am referring to the "...will JUST simply..."
the main problem with running back to the spawn point is: you will be locked out of the boss fight. If you remove the lockout, then they are still valuable: 1-2mins without a healer or a tank p.e. because he has to run back might mean the differance between clear and wipe, but at least it won't be as severe as never to be able to join the fight again unless you give real $$.
the drop rate is non-existant. apart from you claiming to have 2-3drops, most beta testers say that they have 0, and only few got 1 in the span of 3 weekends of play. the price is also astronomical (in AD)for a player to afford unless 1/10days is the maximum one can run an end level dungeon.
edit2: to a mod:
i also believe this thread should be moved to gameplay+feedback instead of being in the cleric subforum, since the problems that arise from res scrolls is not restricted to a single class, but to the gameplay in general.
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l1zardo1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
If people want to remove all challenge by paying money, let them. No skin off my nose, and the game gets more income.
Personally, I play to have a sense of achievement and try and refine play. My 'fun' would be removed by using the EZ button
No guild who is 'progression' will take the cheap road to victory, unless they truly don't care about accomplishments., which means they aren't really progression lol.
Do I care if someone 'buys' their way through the PvE content? Why should I, doesn't impact my life or world at all.
If they ever add leaderboards or any sort of titles from progression, then they can look at making those void with a rez, or something...
Do I care if someone 'buys' their way through the PvE content? Why should I, doesn't impact my life or world at all.
Maybe it doesn't bother you but it bothers me and it bothers many more people. It's a legitimate concern. It cheapens the sense of accomplishment that comes with beating the hard PVE content in the game. I can argue til I'm blue in the face but I don't think I'll get my point across. If you can't understand this basic concept then there's nothing more for me to talk about.
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l1zardo1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
Lol it cheapens your sense of accomplishment when someone else beats content via an EZ Button ?
Why would you care about the whales and how much of daddy's money they drop on the game.
Every F2P game has it. GW2 with legendaries, DDO with + stat tomes and self rez items. Can you list one F2P that doesn't sell something that is a huge advantage? GW2 maybe, although it saves you 5 months of farming for a skin ... lol.
Or maybe your issue is that you can acquire such items for AD or from drops and then trivialize an encounter with your limited supply item. (you could easily just reserve all your AD for that, since you have a good mount from founders, or do some Zen surveys lol)
These things exist in D&D too. Can remember my Staff of Cosmos making an encounter pretty much over lol. Or a True Resurrection scroll to have your leet party member do a kip-up
Honestly, just be pissed that they exist at all, because really that seems to be your issue.
Also ... people also cheat online ... a lot. Between that and f2p models, I don't think you will ever find your game that you are looking for. Sub game with good server perhaps.
I still say making Rez a Cleric daily power is the answer. This way you are limiting the rez available but then if 1 or 2 of the party go down and you have not spent a fortune on rez scrolls it saves the whole party having to wipe and start the encounter again. I also feel having a castable rez available from a Cleric is very much a part of group tactics and the skill of being a Cleric.
Lol it cheapens your sense of accomplishment when someone else beats content via an EZ Button ?
Why would you care about the whales and how much of daddy's money they drop on the game.
Every F2P game has it. GW2 with legendaries, DDO with + stat tomes and self rez items. Can you list one F2P that doesn't sell something that is a huge advantage? GW2 maybe, although it saves you 5 months of farming for a skin ... lol.
Or maybe your issue is that you can acquire such items for AD or from drops and then trivialize an encounter with your limited supply item. (you could easily just reserve all your AD for that, since you have a good mount from founders, or do some Zen surveys lol)
These things exist in D&D too. Can remember my Staff of Cosmos making an encounter pretty much over lol. Or a True Resurrection scroll to have your leet party member do a kip-up
Honestly, just be pissed that they exist at all, because really that seems to be your issue.
Also ... people also cheat online ... a lot. Between that and f2p models, I don't think you will ever find your game that you are looking for. I know being in a top 50, clearing Black Temple
Yes it cheapens MY experience when others beat the content with an ezmode button. You should understand if you really were in a top 50 WoW guild that cleared BT. It wouldn't bother you at all if a bunch of noobs could throw money at it and beat all that content before you? It would make me furious. Games should reward skill and being able to bypass the need for skill with RL money is absolutely absurd. Every game that does this fails miserably.
As far as F2P's that don't have P2W there are many. League of Legends, DoTA2, Path of Exile, EQ1, EQ2, Secret World, GW2. I've also heard Aion has a pretty good F2P system but I haven't played that one since it went F2P so I can't confirm myself. Would you like me to go on? I'm sure I can think of more this is just off the top of my head. Several of those games DO have items in the cash shop that give exp boosts and things of that nature. But no items that give them a direct unfair advantage in PVE content. Boss battles/raids and such.
Let me ask you this. What do you think would happen if WoW implemented full party rez scrolls that didn't reset boss encounters for real money? Just imagine that for a second. It gives me a headache just thinking about it.
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l1zardo1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
I would hate it. Although I had to leave after all the welfare epics anyways :P
Also didn't have 20 hours a week to raid anymore (plus farm consumables lol)
... although that didn't stop some guild leaders from selling BT runs and getting scrubs their warglaives lol
I think games that transitioned to F2P might be the exceptions. I know all that are launch as F2P have an unbalanced CS
Not that I agree with it, but 99% of the time it's items that save you RL time. Convenience tax (or stupidity tax lol) Its hard to say how much they will be used, and if much content even requires one to 'cheat' like that
- lol wasn't finished typing last sentence in my last comment. Had my GF call
So .. from a raider point of view. Yes, you want your hard earned loot to be rare. I totally understand that. I guess its that I don't care about P2W players ... and relish in mopping them up in PvP lol! (so they have one good use)
Sounds like we're pretty much in agreement then lol. Looks like the dev's are well aware of this issue anyway and are looking into it. Hopefully they make some changes that will make it less of a blatant autowin button or remove it all together.
Somebody else said this in another thread but I thought it was relevant to this discussion so I'll quote it here. Someone asked something like "How does other people using P2W effect you?" and his response was "It turns cash into a game mechanic, and inherently does so at the cost of rewarding skill. It undermines and erodes the whole point of games. I doubt most would tolerate a PnP RPG DM who sells powerful in-game advantages for players' cash. There is no real difference when our "DM" does it." and I couldn't have said it any better myself.
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l1zardo1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
Yes ... bribing the DM with 'treats'
I do think they are too powerful, as some items always were in D&D. It was always up to the DM whether to allow them into the game. Very hard to remove sometimes. (although not to a creative DM lol)
If anything they should have a CD, rez sickness, or have the boss reset very quickly once it has no target. Although how many rez scrolls do you need when you have the Healthstones lol. Combination of the two are definitily an IWIN Button (specially with AHK autopotting at 12s intervals :P)
So am I the only one who doesn't want Clerics to have a rez power? I intend to play a Cleric as my main, but I'm still sick of healers being an absolute necessity in every party. Add the rez and you literally CANNOT play most dungeons without at least one im your group.
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prunetracyMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
So there's two different discussions happening here.
1. Whether or not the res scroll behavior should be defined as "Pay to Win."
2. Whether or not the res scroll behavior is a problem.
For some, any Pay to Win system is a problem, so if the answer to 1 is yes, 2 is yes also. Others feel as though Pay to Win is only a problem if you must Pay to Win to progress (and might only define it as Pay to Win if that is the case).
So really it comes down to a subjective matter of degree. How much advantage do paying players have over non-paying players? If it's as small as being able to get more attempts on a boss in a shorter time frame due to not needing to run as far, most people seem fine with that. If it's as large as being able to make your party effectively unkillable by rezzing anyone who dies mid combat, many people feel that's too far.
That's what the discussion is about. Exactly how much advantage is too much? This is an opinion, and we're free to discuss what reasons we have for having that opinion. It's all feedback, and hopefully the developers consider it carefully.
For my part, I think the res scroll behavior goes too far. Paying players have far too much advantage over non-paying players as implemented. I think that all a res scroll should do is save you a run from the respawn point (this can be a big convenience depending on where you die). It should not allow you to continue a fight without resetting.
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ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
edited April 2013
If they made resurrection scrolls and health stones only usable while not in combat that would make them truly convenience. Take one look at the health stone to get up to full instead of swigging 3 pots or finding a campfire, and instead of going back to the campfire, being removed from the fight and trudging for 3-5 minutes back to the party just wait for them to finish it then resurrect back on the spot.
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shphgrMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
So am I the only one who doesn't want Clerics to have a rez power? I intend to play a Cleric as my main, but I'm still sick of healers being an absolute necessity in every party. Add the rez and you literally CANNOT play most dungeons without at least one im your group.
in a game where healing pots amount to so much healing, plus you can have a healing companion, plus you can gear for life steal on any character... then yes, clerics DO need to have a selling point imo. i don't really want to deviate from the original thread much, but saying that a cleric shouldn't be required for end game content is the same as saying that end game encounters shouldn't have aggro/threat meters (cause that would make a tank required) or the same as saying that they shouldn't have enrage timers or even better that much HP (cause that would make dps required) and etc.
each class SHOULD have it's distinct advantages in some areas compared to other classes. in a game where healing from clerics is good, but not really that required, which should be their advantage in your opinion?
but once gain, i am against in-combat rez in general, but since that won't happen (imo) then simply removing the lockout mechanics in bosses should be enough to make rez scrolls wanted but not mandatory imo.
but once gain, i am against in-combat rez in general, but since that won't happen (imo) then simply removing the lockout mechanics in bosses should be enough to make rez scrolls wanted but not mandatory imo.
I would be really disappointed by this mechanic. I like that I actually have to pay attention in combat, and avoid getting killed. I think the death mechanic that they have in the game right now is fantastic, aside from those scrolls. It encourages people to try to plan, rather than just rushing back into the battle over and over again. I'd hate to see them compromise on that, in order to try to solve a different issue.
- LTS since shortly before the F2P announcement, and very happy about it.
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l1zardo1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
If they made resurrection scrolls and health stones only usable while not in combat that would make them truly convenience. Take one look at the health stone to get up to full instead of swigging 3 pots or finding a campfire, and instead of going back to the campfire, being removed from the fight and trudging for 3-5 minutes back to the party just wait for them to finish it then resurrect back on the spot.
Let me mention an exploit in The Secret World and how it can be applied to the Rez Scroll (Scroll of Cure Serious Wounds).
when you fought a boss in TSW and died, you were resurrected and placed inside a small circle. This meant if you died you were useless to the others. The exploit allowed a previously dead person now alive to move out of this circle and run back to the boss fight. This one exploit caused many groups to win against a boss that they shouldn't have been able to.
TSW bosses act the same as most MMO bosses. If there are players alive the boss doesn't reset health. If all players die, the boss is reset.
Lets say that this exploit could have been legit if the player just paid 3$ (or 5$ or 10$ or whatever amount). Lets call this legit exploit a "Scroll of Cure Serious Wounds."
How would a Developer react if an exploit would allow a player in Neverwinter Online to bypass the "Boss Lockout?" Would the developers try to hotfix this exploit or would they allow such a thing to continue to exist?
Some people mention "how people pay to win doesnt effect me in PvE." Well what if those players using Zen are placing items on the AH? What if you purchased an item that was obtained because 1 or more players used a Scroll of Cure Serious Wounds to win a boss fight?
Open the Launcher. Click Options near the top. Check Disable on-demand patching. This will download another couple of gigs.
in a game where healing pots amount to so much healing, plus you can have a healing companion, plus you can gear for life steal on any character... then yes, clerics DO need to have a selling point imo. i don't really want to deviate from the original thread much, but saying that a cleric shouldn't be required for end game content is the same as saying that end game encounters shouldn't have aggro/threat meters (cause that would make a tank required) or the same as saying that they shouldn't have enrage timers or even better that much HP (cause that would make dps required) and etc.
each class SHOULD have it's distinct advantages in some areas compared to other classes. in a game where healing from clerics is good, but not really that required, which should be their advantage in your opinion?
but once gain, i am against in-combat rez in general, but since that won't happen (imo) then simply removing the lockout mechanics in bosses should be enough to make rez scrolls wanted but not mandatory imo.
Being useful and being an absolute necessity are two very different things. Having a Cleric in the party should provide a level of security by keeping players at peak fighting form and give teammates more time to respond to threats before they drop from sudden burst damage. Having a GF should provide the group with the opportunity to let loose everything they have without fear of reprisal because the GF can keep aggro and survive the attention. Rogues and GWF should provide security by neutralizing threats more swiftly than other classes can. CW's provide CC and damage.
All classes have selling points, but none should be necessary. Any team comp ought to be capable of end-game content so long as they're smart about adjusting their playstyle to suit the strengths of the group.
**The Companions of the Hall got along just fine without a Cleric, so why can't any of us?
I don't understand the argument .I don't like p2w games .I don't consider this one because I don't have to buy anything to enjoy every part of the game. as far as rez scroll and health stones etc , at least in pve they have no effect on your personal gameplay if someone else can rez or never dies , whatever. it has zero effect on your gameplay experience ....if bob runs thru the whole content of the game and never dies it doesn't hurt me at all .....pvp is a dif story because It can directly impact your personal experience..but as far as pve gameplay there is no reason to care if someone else has an easier time because they buy things who cares. just my oppinion
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cwiyk13Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 5Arc User
Being useful and being an absolute necessity are two very different things. Having a Cleric in the party should provide a level of security by keeping players at peak fighting form and give teammates more time to respond to threats before they drop from sudden burst damage...
I agree with you that these are the benefits which a Devoted Cleric should bring to a group. The question I pose to you is, in your experience, do you feel a skillful player playing a Devoted Clerics can provide those benefits?
Regarding the original point of this thread, I agree with others who feel that the described implementation of purchasable full-party rez scrolls is Pay-to-win. If your group wipes on a boss but you use a purchased full-party rez scroll to pop back up and defeat him, that is the very definition of paying to win an encounter which you otherwise would not have won. Without that scroll, you would have respawned and tried again after the boss encounter reset. But as long as the encounter can be beaten without using such a scroll, then it is only Pay-to-win and not Pay-to-play. If such a scroll -must- be used to defeat said boss encounter, that would be Pay-to-play.
Now that brings to question the Dev quote: "When we playtest the dungeons in house we don't use any store-bought items." This quote doesn't actually answer the question as to whether or not they use these scrolls because, as many in this thread have pointed out, these scrolls do -rarely- drop in-game and can be traded or sold for Astral Diamonds, thus technically, the devs could be using these when they playtest boss encounters and claim they didn't use any store-bought items. If that is the case, (and I'm not saying that it is, just that it might be) then they are tuning content around the use of these items and we will end up with content that requires the use of these scrolls, thus Pay-to-win.
I really think that the Devs should speak up about this issue and clearly define what they mean by "When we playtest the dungeons in house we don't use any store-bought items" because, in a game where-in most Zen store items can be acquired in-game (albeit requiring a lot of in-game grinding), that statement leaves a lot of leeway in how it is interpreted.
TL;DR:
Do clerics actually provide enough benefit to a group to make them worth picking over another TR or CW?
Using a purchasable full-party full-rez/heal scroll is P2W unless content is designed to require such scrolls, in which case it's P2P.
The Devs quote about not using store-bought items is vague. Do they use these specific scrolls when playtesting or not?
"""""that is the very definition of paying to win an encounter which you otherwise would not have won. Without that scroll, you would have respawned and tried again after the boss encounter reset. But as long as the encounter can be beaten without using such a scroll, then it is only Pay-to-win and not Pay-to-play. If such a scroll -must- be used to defeat said boss encounter, that would be Pay-to-play""""
I disagree with your definition of p2p and p2w here. p2p and f2p are revenue models. describing subscription and non subscription respectively. p2w is a term used to describe a underhanded or sneaky way of baiting people in with the word free while technically true that you can log in to these types of games for free ....there are features of the game are not accessible /possible to enjoy without paying for something...for example . "this game is free to play but you have to pay to win " . I don't think this describes res scroll and health stones ....because it is possible to play and enjoy the game without even having knowledge of these items. it doesn't really apply to a single boss encounter or that group had to try 1 or 2 less times than mine because they used rez scrolls. it makes the game more easy for people who want to spend the money ..it doesn't make the game less enjoyable for people who don't . now if you couldn't do the dungeon that boss was in or it was impossible to defeat any boss without paying for certain items ,that would be pay to win.
P.S im sorry I don't know how to do the quotes right have never spent much time in forums before
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l1zardo1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
thus technically, the devs could be using these when they playtest boss encounters and claim they didn't use any store-bought items.
From a twitch feed I watched with Zeke, the lead designer, he stated that they do not tune encounters to their play level.
They assume we will be much better that the game, and therefore if they won't nerf an encounter because they constantly wipe on it. That would not be the case if they were blowing HS and Rez scrolls I would think :P
As with any MMO, it is dynamic and they will tune with more player data
I agree with you that these are the benefits which a Devoted Cleric should bring to a group. The question I pose to you is, in your experience, do you feel a skillful player playing a Devoted Clerics can provide those benefits?
I think we can't say for certain at this point because in the last Beta Weekend the aggro bug HAMSTER everyone's gameplay too much. Once we get some more time with the DC in a proper group environment where we're not kiting the whole room all day we'll get a better feel for what the devs need to tweak to make this goal a reality. Betas exist so that things can be changed.
But if we ignore hard numbers and what currently is, and instead look at what could be and what the devs are aiming for, I certainly do believe a skilled DC would be an invaluable asset to a team in ways no other class could imitate. Without burst heals DC's are already incapable of being the healbot everyone is used to from WoW and other such MMOs, but with the many smaller heals and, more importantly, the HoTs and lifesteal debuff (Astral Seal) they still provide a ton of staying power to a party. It's hardly far-fetched to imagine moments where a TR wouldn't be able to bring down a big enemy in time to save an ally who misses a dodge or block, but a Cleric might provide enough healing to save that ally from dropping.
And thank you for being so respectful in phrasing your question. That's a rare sight on the interwebs.
***
As for the rez-scrolls, I'm pretty well done with the entire debate. I couldn't care less if other people can buy their way through the PvE content; it won't affect me at all, and I understand that some people want to reach end-game content without spending years to do it. If you want to beat the PvE content on your own skill and determination, more power to you, but don't try to enforce your preference on everyone else.
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cwiyk13Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 5Arc User
Im going to play with family and friends so go ahead and win the game before me. Im not going too waste 7$ for a one shot rez item. thats 7$ for a non real item.
TL;DR:
Do clerics actually provide enough benefit to a group to make them worth picking over another TR or CW?
Using a purchasable full-party full-rez/heal scroll is P2W unless content is designed to require such scrolls, in which case it's P2P.
The Devs quote about not using store-bought items is vague. Do they use these specific scrolls when playtesting or not?
If you look at the cleric as simply a healer, then the answer is probably no. The fact is, as a cleric, we're not healers, we're more of an off-healer/buffer. I played to 50 and ran all the dungeons I could, and I can't count the number of times one of the rogues would be shocked by how much damage they could hit for when I had Hollowed Ground down. Once I hit 50, Astral Shield w/ Divinity was crazy damage mitigation. IMO, a correctly played cleric is already a necessity, whether they can res or not.
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l1zardo1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
Hallowed with the Div feat is a very long high HP HoT as well. (4th tier, Moon-touched I think)
If you look at the cleric as simply a healer, then the answer is probably no. The fact is, as a cleric, we're not healers, we're more of an off-healer/buffer. I played to 50 and ran all the dungeons I could, and I can't count the number of times one of the rogues would be shocked by how much damage they could hit for when I had Hollowed Ground down. Once I hit 50, Astral Shield w/ Divinity was crazy damage mitigation. IMO, a correctly played cleric is already a necessity, whether they can res or not.
I think this is a fantastic point and post. Clerics are a lot more than wack a mole healers like many players are used to. We provide great buffs, solid aoe damage, and fantastic buffs. Clerics are a huge asset to a well played group.
Personally I do not care if the res scrolls are there. I would never buy or use one unless I won the lotto.
That being said I think that Cryptic needs to evaluate them. Luckily for us they already are. If push came to shove, and people were going to leave the game over them, I would rather see the res scrolls removed from the game than a res added to the cleric. IMO the game is already easy enough. The last thing I want to see is it get easier, and also create balance issues down the road for other leaders that do not have a res, combat or not. To me the campfire run back is a very mild penalty to death and I see no need, nor feel any pressure to buy a res scroll to bypass the mechanic.
That being said, it is a pay to win item because it allows a player to bypass a game mechanic to make a boss fight easier to beat. There is nothing more pay to win than that. Spend cash, kill boss easier. I just don't think the answer is to make every boss easier all the time by adding the same mechanic to clerics. At that point it just becomes cleric to win instead of pay to win.
Comments
my main problem, and i guess the main problem of most of the people that argue against rez scrolls is raid encounters.
in all mmo's, there are two stages in raids/larger dungeons/whatever you call them:
progression and farm.
sure, in house the devs said that they can do the content, the question is can they do it in fresh equip or do they have to farm beforehand for weeks to equip all the party/raid members till they start killing the last boss.
in most games, a fresh 100%group rez IN THE MIDDLE OF THE COMBAT is the differance between a clear and a wipe.
the problem that arises with those scrolls imo is thus this: a group with enough money to have 1scroll/boss can clear the dungeon as soon as they hit the level to do it, this allows them to farm the gear of the dungeon from the very moment they hit the required level. this in turn makes the next run that much easier, if their equip isn't still on par then they can clear it again using real world $$ till they get enough equip to clear it without and etc.
so my suggestion is this: do EITHER (not all, just 1) of those 3:
1)make group rez scrolls unavailable for the tougher content of the game
2)make them available but all those rezzed will be locked out of the battle like they would have been if they went to a campfire and back again.
3)remove "lockout" from boss fights if you have to run back from the campfire to them
you yourself described them as not a p2w option because
this is NOT TRUE. edit: i am referring to the "...will JUST simply..."
the main problem with running back to the spawn point is: you will be locked out of the boss fight. If you remove the lockout, then they are still valuable: 1-2mins without a healer or a tank p.e. because he has to run back might mean the differance between clear and wipe, but at least it won't be as severe as never to be able to join the fight again unless you give real $$.
the drop rate is non-existant. apart from you claiming to have 2-3drops, most beta testers say that they have 0, and only few got 1 in the span of 3 weekends of play. the price is also astronomical (in AD)for a player to afford unless 1/10days is the maximum one can run an end level dungeon.
edit2: to a mod:
i also believe this thread should be moved to gameplay+feedback instead of being in the cleric subforum, since the problems that arise from res scrolls is not restricted to a single class, but to the gameplay in general.
Personally, I play to have a sense of achievement and try and refine play. My 'fun' would be removed by using the EZ button
No guild who is 'progression' will take the cheap road to victory, unless they truly don't care about accomplishments., which means they aren't really progression lol.
Do I care if someone 'buys' their way through the PvE content? Why should I, doesn't impact my life or world at all.
If they ever add leaderboards or any sort of titles from progression, then they can look at making those void with a rez, or something...
Why would you care about the whales and how much of daddy's money they drop on the game.
Every F2P game has it. GW2 with legendaries, DDO with + stat tomes and self rez items. Can you list one F2P that doesn't sell something that is a huge advantage? GW2 maybe, although it saves you 5 months of farming for a skin ... lol.
Or maybe your issue is that you can acquire such items for AD or from drops and then trivialize an encounter with your limited supply item. (you could easily just reserve all your AD for that, since you have a good mount from founders, or do some Zen surveys lol)
These things exist in D&D too. Can remember my Staff of Cosmos making an encounter pretty much over lol. Or a True Resurrection scroll to have your leet party member do a kip-up
Honestly, just be pissed that they exist at all, because really that seems to be your issue.
Also ... people also cheat online ... a lot. Between that and f2p models, I don't think you will ever find your game that you are looking for. Sub game with good server perhaps.
Yes it cheapens MY experience when others beat the content with an ezmode button. You should understand if you really were in a top 50 WoW guild that cleared BT. It wouldn't bother you at all if a bunch of noobs could throw money at it and beat all that content before you? It would make me furious. Games should reward skill and being able to bypass the need for skill with RL money is absolutely absurd. Every game that does this fails miserably.
As far as F2P's that don't have P2W there are many. League of Legends, DoTA2, Path of Exile, EQ1, EQ2, Secret World, GW2. I've also heard Aion has a pretty good F2P system but I haven't played that one since it went F2P so I can't confirm myself. Would you like me to go on? I'm sure I can think of more this is just off the top of my head. Several of those games DO have items in the cash shop that give exp boosts and things of that nature. But no items that give them a direct unfair advantage in PVE content. Boss battles/raids and such.
Let me ask you this. What do you think would happen if WoW implemented full party rez scrolls that didn't reset boss encounters for real money? Just imagine that for a second. It gives me a headache just thinking about it.
Also didn't have 20 hours a week to raid anymore (plus farm consumables lol)
... although that didn't stop some guild leaders from selling BT runs and getting scrubs their warglaives lol
I think games that transitioned to F2P might be the exceptions. I know all that are launch as F2P have an unbalanced CS
Not that I agree with it, but 99% of the time it's items that save you RL time. Convenience tax (or stupidity tax lol) Its hard to say how much they will be used, and if much content even requires one to 'cheat' like that
- lol wasn't finished typing last sentence in my last comment. Had my GF call
So .. from a raider point of view. Yes, you want your hard earned loot to be rare. I totally understand that. I guess its that I don't care about P2W players ... and relish in mopping them up in PvP lol! (so they have one good use)
Somebody else said this in another thread but I thought it was relevant to this discussion so I'll quote it here. Someone asked something like "How does other people using P2W effect you?" and his response was "It turns cash into a game mechanic, and inherently does so at the cost of rewarding skill. It undermines and erodes the whole point of games. I doubt most would tolerate a PnP RPG DM who sells powerful in-game advantages for players' cash. There is no real difference when our "DM" does it." and I couldn't have said it any better myself.
I do think they are too powerful, as some items always were in D&D. It was always up to the DM whether to allow them into the game. Very hard to remove sometimes. (although not to a creative DM lol)
If anything they should have a CD, rez sickness, or have the boss reset very quickly once it has no target. Although how many rez scrolls do you need when you have the Healthstones lol. Combination of the two are definitily an IWIN Button (specially with AHK autopotting at 12s intervals :P)
1. Whether or not the res scroll behavior should be defined as "Pay to Win."
2. Whether or not the res scroll behavior is a problem.
For some, any Pay to Win system is a problem, so if the answer to 1 is yes, 2 is yes also. Others feel as though Pay to Win is only a problem if you must Pay to Win to progress (and might only define it as Pay to Win if that is the case).
So really it comes down to a subjective matter of degree. How much advantage do paying players have over non-paying players? If it's as small as being able to get more attempts on a boss in a shorter time frame due to not needing to run as far, most people seem fine with that. If it's as large as being able to make your party effectively unkillable by rezzing anyone who dies mid combat, many people feel that's too far.
That's what the discussion is about. Exactly how much advantage is too much? This is an opinion, and we're free to discuss what reasons we have for having that opinion. It's all feedback, and hopefully the developers consider it carefully.
For my part, I think the res scroll behavior goes too far. Paying players have far too much advantage over non-paying players as implemented. I think that all a res scroll should do is save you a run from the respawn point (this can be a big convenience depending on where you die). It should not allow you to continue a fight without resetting.
in a game where healing pots amount to so much healing, plus you can have a healing companion, plus you can gear for life steal on any character... then yes, clerics DO need to have a selling point imo. i don't really want to deviate from the original thread much, but saying that a cleric shouldn't be required for end game content is the same as saying that end game encounters shouldn't have aggro/threat meters (cause that would make a tank required) or the same as saying that they shouldn't have enrage timers or even better that much HP (cause that would make dps required) and etc.
each class SHOULD have it's distinct advantages in some areas compared to other classes. in a game where healing from clerics is good, but not really that required, which should be their advantage in your opinion?
but once gain, i am against in-combat rez in general, but since that won't happen (imo) then simply removing the lockout mechanics in bosses should be enough to make rez scrolls wanted but not mandatory imo.
I would be really disappointed by this mechanic. I like that I actually have to pay attention in combat, and avoid getting killed. I think the death mechanic that they have in the game right now is fantastic, aside from those scrolls. It encourages people to try to plan, rather than just rushing back into the battle over and over again. I'd hate to see them compromise on that, in order to try to solve a different issue.
You totally nailed it. That is convenience vs P2W
when you fought a boss in TSW and died, you were resurrected and placed inside a small circle. This meant if you died you were useless to the others. The exploit allowed a previously dead person now alive to move out of this circle and run back to the boss fight. This one exploit caused many groups to win against a boss that they shouldn't have been able to.
TSW bosses act the same as most MMO bosses. If there are players alive the boss doesn't reset health. If all players die, the boss is reset.
Lets say that this exploit could have been legit if the player just paid 3$ (or 5$ or 10$ or whatever amount). Lets call this legit exploit a "Scroll of Cure Serious Wounds."
How would a Developer react if an exploit would allow a player in Neverwinter Online to bypass the "Boss Lockout?" Would the developers try to hotfix this exploit or would they allow such a thing to continue to exist?
Some people mention "how people pay to win doesnt effect me in PvE." Well what if those players using Zen are placing items on the AH? What if you purchased an item that was obtained because 1 or more players used a Scroll of Cure Serious Wounds to win a boss fight?
Ability Scores || All Attribute Roll Combinations || My Cleric Stream \o/
Being useful and being an absolute necessity are two very different things. Having a Cleric in the party should provide a level of security by keeping players at peak fighting form and give teammates more time to respond to threats before they drop from sudden burst damage. Having a GF should provide the group with the opportunity to let loose everything they have without fear of reprisal because the GF can keep aggro and survive the attention. Rogues and GWF should provide security by neutralizing threats more swiftly than other classes can. CW's provide CC and damage.
All classes have selling points, but none should be necessary. Any team comp ought to be capable of end-game content so long as they're smart about adjusting their playstyle to suit the strengths of the group.
**The Companions of the Hall got along just fine without a Cleric, so why can't any of us?
I agree with you that these are the benefits which a Devoted Cleric should bring to a group. The question I pose to you is, in your experience, do you feel a skillful player playing a Devoted Clerics can provide those benefits?
Regarding the original point of this thread, I agree with others who feel that the described implementation of purchasable full-party rez scrolls is Pay-to-win. If your group wipes on a boss but you use a purchased full-party rez scroll to pop back up and defeat him, that is the very definition of paying to win an encounter which you otherwise would not have won. Without that scroll, you would have respawned and tried again after the boss encounter reset. But as long as the encounter can be beaten without using such a scroll, then it is only Pay-to-win and not Pay-to-play. If such a scroll -must- be used to defeat said boss encounter, that would be Pay-to-play.
Now that brings to question the Dev quote: "When we playtest the dungeons in house we don't use any store-bought items." This quote doesn't actually answer the question as to whether or not they use these scrolls because, as many in this thread have pointed out, these scrolls do -rarely- drop in-game and can be traded or sold for Astral Diamonds, thus technically, the devs could be using these when they playtest boss encounters and claim they didn't use any store-bought items. If that is the case, (and I'm not saying that it is, just that it might be) then they are tuning content around the use of these items and we will end up with content that requires the use of these scrolls, thus Pay-to-win.
I really think that the Devs should speak up about this issue and clearly define what they mean by "When we playtest the dungeons in house we don't use any store-bought items" because, in a game where-in most Zen store items can be acquired in-game (albeit requiring a lot of in-game grinding), that statement leaves a lot of leeway in how it is interpreted.
TL;DR:
Do clerics actually provide enough benefit to a group to make them worth picking over another TR or CW?
Using a purchasable full-party full-rez/heal scroll is P2W unless content is designed to require such scrolls, in which case it's P2P.
The Devs quote about not using store-bought items is vague. Do they use these specific scrolls when playtesting or not?
I disagree with your definition of p2p and p2w here. p2p and f2p are revenue models. describing subscription and non subscription respectively. p2w is a term used to describe a underhanded or sneaky way of baiting people in with the word free while technically true that you can log in to these types of games for free ....there are features of the game are not accessible /possible to enjoy without paying for something...for example . "this game is free to play but you have to pay to win " . I don't think this describes res scroll and health stones ....because it is possible to play and enjoy the game without even having knowledge of these items. it doesn't really apply to a single boss encounter or that group had to try 1 or 2 less times than mine because they used rez scrolls. it makes the game more easy for people who want to spend the money ..it doesn't make the game less enjoyable for people who don't . now if you couldn't do the dungeon that boss was in or it was impossible to defeat any boss without paying for certain items ,that would be pay to win.
P.S im sorry I don't know how to do the quotes right have never spent much time in forums before
From a twitch feed I watched with Zeke, the lead designer, he stated that they do not tune encounters to their play level.
They assume we will be much better that the game, and therefore if they won't nerf an encounter because they constantly wipe on it. That would not be the case if they were blowing HS and Rez scrolls I would think :P
As with any MMO, it is dynamic and they will tune with more player data
I think we can't say for certain at this point because in the last Beta Weekend the aggro bug HAMSTER everyone's gameplay too much. Once we get some more time with the DC in a proper group environment where we're not kiting the whole room all day we'll get a better feel for what the devs need to tweak to make this goal a reality. Betas exist so that things can be changed.
But if we ignore hard numbers and what currently is, and instead look at what could be and what the devs are aiming for, I certainly do believe a skilled DC would be an invaluable asset to a team in ways no other class could imitate. Without burst heals DC's are already incapable of being the healbot everyone is used to from WoW and other such MMOs, but with the many smaller heals and, more importantly, the HoTs and lifesteal debuff (Astral Seal) they still provide a ton of staying power to a party. It's hardly far-fetched to imagine moments where a TR wouldn't be able to bring down a big enemy in time to save an ally who misses a dodge or block, but a Cleric might provide enough healing to save that ally from dropping.
And thank you for being so respectful in phrasing your question. That's a rare sight on the interwebs.
***
As for the rez-scrolls, I'm pretty well done with the entire debate. I couldn't care less if other people can buy their way through the PvE content; it won't affect me at all, and I understand that some people want to reach end-game content without spending years to do it. If you want to beat the PvE content on your own skill and determination, more power to you, but don't try to enforce your preference on everyone else.
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If you look at the cleric as simply a healer, then the answer is probably no. The fact is, as a cleric, we're not healers, we're more of an off-healer/buffer. I played to 50 and ran all the dungeons I could, and I can't count the number of times one of the rogues would be shocked by how much damage they could hit for when I had Hollowed Ground down. Once I hit 50, Astral Shield w/ Divinity was crazy damage mitigation. IMO, a correctly played cleric is already a necessity, whether they can res or not.
I think this is a fantastic point and post. Clerics are a lot more than wack a mole healers like many players are used to. We provide great buffs, solid aoe damage, and fantastic buffs. Clerics are a huge asset to a well played group.
That being said I think that Cryptic needs to evaluate them. Luckily for us they already are. If push came to shove, and people were going to leave the game over them, I would rather see the res scrolls removed from the game than a res added to the cleric. IMO the game is already easy enough. The last thing I want to see is it get easier, and also create balance issues down the road for other leaders that do not have a res, combat or not. To me the campfire run back is a very mild penalty to death and I see no need, nor feel any pressure to buy a res scroll to bypass the mechanic.
That being said, it is a pay to win item because it allows a player to bypass a game mechanic to make a boss fight easier to beat. There is nothing more pay to win than that. Spend cash, kill boss easier. I just don't think the answer is to make every boss easier all the time by adding the same mechanic to clerics. At that point it just becomes cleric to win instead of pay to win.