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Z-Store "Resurrection Scroll" is NOT what you think it is
angrysprite
Member Posts: 4,982 Arc User
This is actually a reply to another thread, but I felt it more useful as it's own thread to help more people understand.
The question of "resurrection" ability has come up dozens upon dozens of times in these forums and it revolves around two specific things:
1) Cleric ability to resurrect a dead comrade
2) The Z-Store "Resurrect Scroll" and "WTF does it cost real MONEY!!!??? ZOMG!"
I'll start with number two above, regarding the "costs real money resurrection scroll":
Indeed, I think people are mistaking the Z-Store "Resurrection" tool. The reason it costs money is because it resurrects YOU, not someone else. I think it works the same way as Resurrection powers do in Champions Online, like so:
When in a Boss fight, and you knock him down to 25% health, but he "kills" you - you respawn at the respawn point (usually the beginning of the map) - run all the way back and discover his health is back to 100%. You are both now at 100% health and you must try to take him out mano-e-mano all over again.
The "resurrection" power purchased in the Z-Store allows you (and only you) to respawn in-place, right where you fell, with full health and the Boss *remains* at the same health point he was at when you fell.
The Resurrection Power you pay real money for is NOT to resurrect another player, it is to resurrect yourself in the same situation. That's why it costs real money. If NWO Clerics ever gain a "resurrect" ability to resurrect another player, that ability will be earned in-game some how. *Everything* you can buy in the Z-Store will only work for YOU. It *never*, *ever* affects another player in any way, shape, or form or it becomes "pay to win" which really is against Cryptic's philosophy.
Now on to number two above: I ran across this great thread about how, even if Cryptic added the ability to Clerics in game, the cleric would need to be at Maximum game level, according to $e Rules.
See that thread here:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?113681-4E-Clerics-don-t-have-a-rez-until-Epic
The question of "resurrection" ability has come up dozens upon dozens of times in these forums and it revolves around two specific things:
1) Cleric ability to resurrect a dead comrade
2) The Z-Store "Resurrect Scroll" and "WTF does it cost real MONEY!!!??? ZOMG!"
I'll start with number two above, regarding the "costs real money resurrection scroll":
Indeed, I think people are mistaking the Z-Store "Resurrection" tool. The reason it costs money is because it resurrects YOU, not someone else. I think it works the same way as Resurrection powers do in Champions Online, like so:
When in a Boss fight, and you knock him down to 25% health, but he "kills" you - you respawn at the respawn point (usually the beginning of the map) - run all the way back and discover his health is back to 100%. You are both now at 100% health and you must try to take him out mano-e-mano all over again.
The "resurrection" power purchased in the Z-Store allows you (and only you) to respawn in-place, right where you fell, with full health and the Boss *remains* at the same health point he was at when you fell.
The Resurrection Power you pay real money for is NOT to resurrect another player, it is to resurrect yourself in the same situation. That's why it costs real money. If NWO Clerics ever gain a "resurrect" ability to resurrect another player, that ability will be earned in-game some how. *Everything* you can buy in the Z-Store will only work for YOU. It *never*, *ever* affects another player in any way, shape, or form or it becomes "pay to win" which really is against Cryptic's philosophy.
Now on to number two above: I ran across this great thread about how, even if Cryptic added the ability to Clerics in game, the cleric would need to be at Maximum game level, according to $e Rules.
See that thread here:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?113681-4E-Clerics-don-t-have-a-rez-until-Epic
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You would think that hitting Cure Serious Wounds would be the optimal 'self-rez' since you will not be dead when that pop-up happens.
Dunno how the hell you rez other people, never seen any sort of option while alive lol. Unless its a hotbar deal.
It's worth noting that almost all bosses have a "lock-out" mechanic, so if you die, and you revive yourself without a resurrection scroll, you are locked out of the boss fight until the whole group wipes and chooses not to use scrolls, resetting the boss.
Absolutely ridiculous.
To me this is way better than a game killing P2W rez scroll.
There are Party-Resurrection Scrolls.
Bottom line, resurrection scrolls do drop as loot, just not that often. Resurrection Scrolls are a part of both the Astral Market and the Zen Market and by the dropping as loot, also puts them on the Auction market (which is part of the Astral Market) and through literal player-trade. They are convience items, nothing more, nothing less. 100% optional to buy in any form.
If one chooses not to use ress scrolls or cannot afford them, then they will just simply respawn at the nearest respawn point.
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They're more than convenient - they're more powerful than any other consumable in the game, and there's no player skill to replicate their function. The only way to do what a resurrection scroll can do is by paying for it. That makes them pay2win.
To even suggest using Astral Diamonds to purchase a resurrection scroll at this point is ludicrous - given the current exchange rates, the price would be 200,000 AD. That's 10 days of farming the max amount of AD. Even if the price drops in half it would be 5 days of farming for a single purchase. But even if they become cheap, it doesn't solve the problem at hand - that arguably the most powerful healing in the game comes from the Zen store instead of a Cleric. Resurrection can only be purchased.
Until there's a way for players to replicate the function of this item, they're going to be called pay2win.
If end-game dungeons are easy enough to do entirely without resurrection, it's not going to retain the players most interested in that content (who are looking for a challenge). If end-game dungeons are hard enough to require resurrection scrolls, their purchase is going to be a huge barrier of entry for f2p players and many paying players won't want to spend a daily or monthly stipend on affording the tools necessary to enjoy their favorite content.
I only see two solutions: remove them entirely, or offer players a way to resurrect.
So, either their drop was a fluke bug or they are intended to drop as (rare) loot. Calling them p2w doesn't make them p2w. Those that call them this just aren't grasping the optional part. In order for there to be P2W, the optional bit would need removed and so would respawn points, making players need to use Ress Scrolls to continue playing. This is not the case, not even in the slightest.
Never-the-less, my statements shouldn't be taken as though I don't think Clerics deserve such a spell of their own. In fact, I am in 100% agreement that Clerics need a Ress Spell/Power/Ability. To deny them this is going against so many years of D&D, it would just be silly to not give them a Ress Power.
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Again, I'm not saying they should be removed entirely - because I understand that some players like the ability to overcome challenges by throwing money at it or getting a combat boost for a few dollars - but people are going to complain about this until we are offered something that comes close to replicating their function.
Nay, they are still convince items no matter their power. Purely optional and earnable through in-game play. In fact, everything in the Zen store is earnable in game, without ever having to pay a dime. This right here nullifies any pay-to-win argument, that is unless they make normal AD income such a huge annoyance that it would make the game nothing more than an AD grind to get ahead.
When a game gets to the point where normal game-play is too hard or annoying and their optional cash shop becomes the only way to avoid the rigors of repetition and grind, is when such a game would become Pay to Win.
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]
Dye isn't even close to the same thing. One makes you look pretty, the other one lets you progress more quickly.
I think your definition of Pay to Win is different than mine. It sounds like you're describing Pay to Win as a scenario where you cannot reasonably play the game without paying. That's not pay to win at that point, that's pay to play at all.
In my mind, Pay to Win means spending money gives you a power advantage over players who don't. If spending more money than the other guy allows your character to get better gear, faster, then there is some Pay to Win in your game.
A res scroll available for money that allows you to continue a fight after you have been defeated is the very definition of paying to win. Spend money, beat an encounter you otherwise wouldn't have. If a player playing normally can acquire these scrolls at a rate at least equal to the rate at which they would be useful, it's not that big of a deal. But if it takes more time to earn one than the frequency at which they would be useful, it is a pay to win situation.
If, however, all a res scroll does is save you a run back from the respawn point (ie not allowing you to continue the fight before reset), it is mere convenience.
For what it's worth, I don't actually think it's a big deal, but it certainly is not mere convenience if it works the way it's been described here.
If the rez scrolls are usable in PvP, then we have a problem. Otherwise, rez scrolls are merely a convenience item to get through content faster.
Because you can pay to win the encounter. Quite literally: after you have been defeated, you can pay to spring right back into action, without resetting the boss, with a heal that no cleric can match. There are lots of people that play competitively even in PvE encounters - people that like being at the top of the board, and like being able to take on the most challenging content. This item is quite literally the definition of pay to win - you can win any encounter just by throwing money at it with these.
The resurrection scrolls wouldn't be that big of a deal if players had access to any ability that came close to matching their power. But clerics don't have a spell that fills up a red bar 100%, much less one they can use to bring their entire party back from 0 even after they have been defeated.
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]
My biggest concern is that ress scrolls make boss fights easier. The late game content is going to be hard, thats what I heard. If on level 40+ dungeons, my party was getting wiped with the boss at 20% hp and had to try 5+ times in a row to kill him, then using that ress scroll would have won us the fight at the first try.
Most people believe that an item from cash shop that changes the dificulty of a boss fight is frustrating, It feels like cheating, because other people get to do it easier at the first try and get items faster.
Most people have a competitive mindset. Even if this game is not supposed to be competitive, most people will try to be the best. Thats why people are freaking out over others with a bigger paycheck getting advantages, because they will not be able to "be the best". This is a goal that makes people play.
"but you can farm them" - It's almost impossible to find ress scrolls and they are expensive, and if you want to be one of the first to complete all content, and compete with others in speed and efficiency, you will have to pay for it.
I agree with them and this "ress scroll" is kinda scaring me away from the game ~ Honest opinion.
The honourable mind is much easier to manipulate,
A swift mind solves problems before they occur,
Accept your fate, or lie, pretend,
Death collects you in the end,
The light that reveals is the glare that blinds,
Knowledge brings power, and with power you can
grab truth by the throat and shape it as you wish,
A large enough debt turns even a friend into an enemy,
Danger is the price of wealth.
Simple solution to your leaderboards problem: you only rank if you dont use a scroll.
Zebular has it right; it's only pay-to-win if you are forced to pay. Making a difficult game easier for casual gamers has no effect on hardcore players if they choose not to utilize these aides.
There are no leaderboards, and It wouldnt solve the problem of people that pay for scrolls will have better items, because they progress faster.
There is a reason to why in most mmorpgs if a build is 1% stronger than any other build, every single person will start using that build. It's because they want to be the best.
What we are talking about is, in my opinion, the amount of frustration that items like this will cause to the hardcore competitive player base, unless they want to get rid of those hardcore guys and their playstyle. >.<
The honourable mind is much easier to manipulate,
A swift mind solves problems before they occur,
Accept your fate, or lie, pretend,
Death collects you in the end,
The light that reveals is the glare that blinds,
Knowledge brings power, and with power you can
grab truth by the throat and shape it as you wish,
A large enough debt turns even a friend into an enemy,
Danger is the price of wealth.
Seriously, would it adversely affect any casual gamer's experience if in addition to having the option to pay for these absurdly powerful items there was a counterpart, in the form of a spell or crafted consumable that offered a tiered version of the same effect?
Now if Cryptic makes the content so hard that coordinated skilled groups cannot beat them without the use of these items, then yea they are OP. This point we all seem to agree on.
Cheers!
Thanks for not using blue font! xD
I was honestly thinking this exact thing while reading the thread. Don't call it P2W, call it 'scrub-tax'
I don't think anyone's making the assumption that groups have equal skill. The fact that a less skilled group can succeed just as fast as a skilled group as long as they pay money is the very essence of Paying to Win. They're using money to get past their skill barrier. What else would you call that?
Can you imagine if the top WoW guilds in the world had the ability to buy group rezzes that didn't reset the boss? The race for world firsts would lose all meaning completely.
Paying to Win means players with money progress faster than players without money. The res scroll system allows for that. Now whether the difference between progression speeds of paying players vs. non-paying players bothers you are not is another matter. But there's no mistaking the fact that players can pay money to beat content they otherwise couldn't. That's Paying to Win.
Most PW games allow such nonsense to people dropping 4-5 digits on their games
I have to join in with others in this thread, and disagree with this point, based on the fact that it's more than just 'convenient' to not die. If they didn't allow you to get back into a boss fight, then it might be a different story. As it is, when I get knocked down in combat, I see a button that effectively says "please pay us more money, if you'd like to win this battle".
If the argument is that because of the AD / Zen exchange, nothing on the Zen store can possibly be "pay to win", then I'd disagree with that, as well.
From the "Combat Ask Me Anything Recap":
It is more of a subjective feeling which one can gauge from the spirit of game and not something which can be determined mathematically(but can be gauged statistically from data). For now, I think it is too soon to form an opinion on if it is p2w or not. Open beta will show us if the game is p2w or not.
And at least in the guild I am currently playing in, I already see a strong opposition against people that use those items. It even leads to the fact that we probably won't recruit people who pay Zen for such things because they see the need for it.
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One argument I see a lot and was brought up in this thread "Who cares it's not a competitive game. If they worked in PVP that'd be different" I fail to see why you would think PVE is not competitive as well. There WILL be competition in PVE. Who can beat what dungeons faster get the best gear the fastest.etc always been that way and always will be that way in MMO's. Go ask high end raid guilds in WoW if PVE is competitive or not. Just because PVP is all that matters to you doesn't mean that everyone feels that way. Wanna know what happens to PVE competition when you can buy full-party rez scrolls that don't reset encounters? It becomes 100% invalid. People with lots of money will just blow $500 on rez scrolls day 1 and faceroll all content even if they're unskilled and don't necessarily deserve to beat those encounters. PVE will be meaningless cause you literally can't lose. If you wipe just instantly get back up and keep fighting with no limits.
Pay to Win doesn't mean you have to pay or the game is unplayable. That would be Pay to Play. There's a BIG difference. The reason people are calling this game p2w is because you can *PAY* real money to *WIN* encounters you otherwise would not have been able to beat. It doesn't get any simpler than that. Simple solution to this problem? Make scrolls not usable til the encounter is fully reset. Make them a CONVENIENCE item to save you from running back from the last fire. Not an auto-win button for every pve encounter in the game. Or better yet remove them from the game and give clerics a rez spell at 50 (The way it should be)
Edit: For the people saying "But you can just farm the res scrolls in-game" if you can show me 1 person that's gotten more than 2-3 res scrolls in the 3 combined beta weekends then I *might* believe your argument. I talked to a guy that leveled 2 different chars to cap and never saw a scroll drop. But you can buy infinite amounts for money. You do the math.
Also, I would like to point out that I've played games where there are no resurrection at all. You wipe in a boss fight you start over from the beginning of the boss fight. It's as simple as that. If you can't do it, get stronger and come back.
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