Can you give an example of where this has happened? I'd like to see your perspective of what constitutes p2w where a publisher stated the contrary.
I didn't claim anything was p2w or wasn't I just added the comment as food for thought. I have been in "what is p2w" debates before in this forum and have learned to avoid such discussions and more than likely I wasn't in the camp you seem to presume I am in.
I've seen it before. I have seen games sell hefty experience buffs and claim it wasn't pay to win because it was an insignificant buff...Double experience for a week for five dollars is minor. Certainly not pay to win...according to one gaming company that has a game which is 90% grinds for levels.
In that game specific game, infested with months of skill grinding, any experience bonus would be pay to win. I used to be ranked in the top 1K subscribing players out of over two million. Due to them selling experience, either directly or through bonuses, years of work is months now...days if you have the money for it. Stupidly overpriced at days but things which took me years to do have had their time frame shortened exponentially by pay to win tactics.
The company still claims they didn't go p2w, my rankings disagree.
However I absolutely don't see anything pay to win about the Founders Pack. Everything is cosmetic.
Other than to say that, I'd like to remind everybody to be civil in their posts. I really don't want to get involved in this discussion too much. I'm not going to argue that the package isn't pay to win despite the fact I 100% do not see anything pay to win about it. Trust me if I did I'd hand you all pitch forks to storm the castle with!
However I am going to keep a close eye on this. Hopefully you guys won't drag me into the fray too much.
DDO Tome of Experience.
A permanent buff to your character, even if you reroll him/her. You get 50% buff to all experience for the first time you do it, and 20% for every time after that. Combine that with the experience pots you can buy. And you get double experience for cash for ever.... And that's just one of the many P2W things added to DDO over the past couple of years.
Da kitties don't speak for me, deez kitties speak fur us all!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I'll Keep this up till beta goes live. I'll improve it soon.
I 100% do not see anything pay to win about it. Trust me if I did I'd hand you all pitch forks to storm the castle with!
?
I have a couple of still-life cameras installed in my barn. If the gentlemen would like to assemble for a few nice shots ? Just for the Community album !
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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jaffrojonesMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
I honestly have no problem with the $200 if you do indeed get the $500+ value with it. I paid the $60 and now wish I had just put up $140 more. I'm expecting long waits logging in in a week and would love to jump to the head of the line. Also, I would love to use the Foundry right away instead of waiting to get to 15th level.
That's the thing, what is p2w can vary with opinion, a company can claim our shop is not p2w and feel they are telling the truth but have many many of its customer disagree with them who equally feel they are telling the truth.
I kind of agree. It is more of an opinion rather than fact.
I didn't claim anything was p2w or wasn't I just added the comment as food for thought. I have been in "what is p2w" debates before in this forum and have learned to avoid such discussions and more than likely I wasn't in the camp you seem to presume I am in.
No need to be defensive, I was just wondering if you had an example. I'm interested in what people consider to be p2w.
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited February 2013
I have a couple of still-life cameras installed in my barn. If the gentlemen would like to assemble for a few nice shots ? Just for the Community album !
Not sure I follow you, man. Eh, just to clarify PWE/Cryptic don't enforce rules on what they do and do not want mods posting as long as they are constructive and conform to the normal rules. We specifically asked if they wanted us to refrain from posting any criticism and the response was no, continue posting as if we had no title. Anything we say we support is truly our personal opinions. If we didn't support it, we would tell you.
Also, I would love to use the Foundry right away instead of waiting to get to 15th level.
In a game with a maximum of 60 levels (at launch) I don't believe getting to 15 should be that hard.
Plus, when I can play the game I plan on actually playing for a decent amount of time before I start working on any Foundry Content. To me it doesn't make much sense to build content for a game you haven't played. *shrugs*
I was just joking jeez. I am happy with the way you mods are going. But i am also a hardboiled realo and do not believe anything if i can read it in print. If you can't take my criticism, I can step it down a bit, just saying.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited February 2013
No, not at all. I just didn't know what you were saying at all really.
Not angry in the slightest, just massively confused
I was picturing us (the debaters) as a peasant mob with pitforks and this seemed like a great theme. Picture us in my barn with pitforks, on hayballs. Out to start a revolution of Cryptic Studios.
Just like to say that when I seen these prices for the packs offered, my jaw dropped.....
What I would like a dev to tell us or whom ever it concerns is what is the break down for the $200.00 pack items if I am a F2P'er?
In other words what is the cost to me if I am to purchase all this stuff in game as opposed to getting the $200 pack.
All I can say is if I change my mind, that mount better do a dance for in game money, because I don't want Joe F2P's horse doing the same thing, seeing how the $200 pack is supposed to be regular price of $549.00.
How can one even make a claim like that and not...expect the buyer to think they are going to have a better experience?
Someone is going to take a pay cut for that lame brain idea.
char slots should make up for a good part of the deal, and the ingame gold. Usable items will be highly valued (in the cash shop anyway). Pets and mounts are already high value classics in other games. None of this is needed to play, except for the inventory slots. But if you really want to provide support by spending some money, this is the way to do it.
In a f2p, those slight benefits build up over time and provide a higher curve for players that come in later.
Which still puts non-spenders closer to the spenders than they would be in a paywalled system, where they'd be at ZERO until they payed, and at zero again once they stop paying.
Spenders will be ahead of non-spenders; with F2P, they'll be closer than the infinite distance they are in P2P or even B2P, no matter WHAT's in the store. And Cryptic always endeavors to have EVERYTHING in the cash shop be available via play, if you're willing to invest the time. The only item in CO that I can recall that you can't get via ingame play is color customization of your powers, which is obviously cosmetic. The only item in STO that I can recall that you can't get via ingame play is the Chimera ship, which is very nice but nowhere near as good as a number of other ships you can get via play, whether that's via spending EC and Dilithium directly, or trading Dilithium for Zen, or spending EC to purchase the ships, or spending EC to purchase lockbox keys and possibly win the ships.
This isn't going to be an Open World PvP system, where coming in later means you get owned every time you step outside the safe zone. You'll be able to catch up. You can enter Champions Online today and catch up with people who've been playing since launch, without spending a dime, even if they spend hundreds of dollars; and while you're catching up, you're not at any disadvantage that slows your play due the presence of higher-level characters.
The F2P model Cryptic uses does nothing but benefit you, short and long term. Yes, getting all the game's benefits is expensive; it would be with a subscription model, too. Developers get paid the same whether they're writing a subscription triple-A title or an F2P triple-A title. Servers cost the same either way. Advertising costs the same. (Well, maybe less with F2P, since the word of mouth advertising is greatly increased.) But Cryptic's track record, though full of stumbles and falters like everybody else feeling this new paradigm out, is one of avoiding the "gun to your head" approach. They don't charge for content; they charge for Cosmetics and Convenience. They make mistakes, but they're honest mistakes, and thus correctable.
A permanent buff to your character, even if you reroll him/her. You get 50% buff to all experience for the first time you do it, and 20% for every time after that. Combine that with the experience pots you can buy. And you get double experience for cash for ever.... And that's just one of the many P2W things added to DDO over the past couple of years.
So what? There's still a level cap. That's not "pay to win", that's "pay to get to the cap a couple weeks quicker". You catch up in short order. Hitting the cap is the beginning of your character's journey, not the end. XP boosts are conveniences.
It's like in the martial arts, where from the outside you think a black belt is the end of the journey, but once you're on the inside, you realize that a black belt means you've learned enough of the basics to begin learning the martial arts.
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
"4. Item 3. implies that the game experience that does not cost anything cannot very overly much from the paid experience. This is why most agree that what can be purchased must be limited, with disagreement in what those limitations should be. Purely aesthetic options are usually uncontroversial at one end of the spectrum with over-powered pay-only equipment, or pay-only content, considered as most problematic at the other."
I'll be honest. I just lost interest in the game when Drow became an exclusive $200+ dollar race. I wanted to play as a Drow, but was NOT going to pay $200 for it. (I'd consider paying a few dollars or whatever, but I find that is ridiculous.)
I think the prices are ridiculous. I'm sure I am in the minority as pre-game message boards are generally very fanboy type message boards. (Not that there is anything wrong with that, but if devs think generally positive responses from this message board mean anything, they are deluding themselves.) I was already losing interest as all my friends lost interest already. Due to things like 5,000 damage per hit.
Still curious to see how the game does in terms of sales and interest, but personally speaking my interest in the game just fell off the map.
Just FYI the race is free, the custom background for Renegade is the pay one.
You don't know what you are talking about ! Drow races will still be available to everybody. The menzo rebell is purely a bio kind of bonus. I bought my IP because i need to be a vip at all times. It goes well with my tie.
Those are for zen coins... are the astral diamonds equivelent in value? I know you can buy zen coins with real cash, so what will the exchange rate be for diamond to zen be?
Not released what the caps for high and low will be but this will be determined by the AD exchange.
And everybody, this is a vent thread, as long as basic decorum rules here, feel free to speak your mind on this like the "Beta Anxiety" thread.
Just like to say that when I seen these prices for the packs offered, my jaw dropped.....
What I would like a dev to tell us or whom ever it concerns is what is the break down for the $200.00 pack items if I am a F2P'er?
In other words what is the cost to me if I am to purchase all this stuff in game as opposed to getting the $200 pack.
All I can say is if I change my mind, that mount better do a dance for in game money, because I don't want Joe F2P's horse doing the same thing, seeing how the $200 pack is supposed to be regular price of $549.00.
How can one even make a claim like that and not...expect the buyer to think they are going to have a better experience?
Someone is going to take a pay cut for that lame brain idea.
Yikes!!!!
I think it's pretty evident that a majority of the packs 'value' can be found in the cash shop currency given.
5-day early access - negligible/priceless depending on the individual
Access to all 3 betas - negligible/priceless depending on the individual(Twitch/Justin.tv/youtube viewer spikes/subscriptions?)
Skin - $25
Mount - $25
Pet - $10
Regalia Mask - negligible/priceless depending on the individual
Priority log in - negligible/priceless depending on the individual
Aura(reusable?) - $15
12 slot bag - $5
Early Foundry - negligible/priceless depending on the individual
Lev 60 Weapon box - $10
Access to mask tavern - negligible/priceless depending on the individual
Helper pack - $5
Respec token - $10
Enchantment(reusable) - $5
Robe of Useless Items - negligible/priceless depending on the individual
3 character slots - $25
750,000 Astral Diamonds - after assessment
Estimated Value - $549
Totaling: $135
Difference = $412
750,000 / $412 = 1820 Astral Diamonds per $1.00
Given PWE's notoriety for 100 zen = $1.00, I could easily see 100 zen = 1,000 Astral Diamonds. At that conversion rate, they are essentially giving you almost double the zen for the same price.
Assuming Foundry will have cash shop items unlocking events/tools/triggers/traps/mobs, if you are a fan of making campaigns then this is a great deal.
Given PWE's history of costumes costing anywhere from $5 - $20, if you like cosmetic stuff, again it's a great deal. They are simply asking players to take advantage of their gratuity up front, instead of slowly grinding in-game currency for zen exchange or slowly spending $400 on cash shop items throughout the course of your experience.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited February 2013
asdfasdfgf,
If I wore hats I would take mine off to you sir!
If your math is correct then you may perfectly reasonable sense.
Also you can easily lower the prices of all those items and throw in a few dollar values into the 'negligible' items so some of the cosmetics aren't priced so high. $20 Dollars to have a Drow Renegade Costume and $20 dollars for a Spider Mount seem completely reasonable in those terms.
*googly eyes* Congradulations. You have managed to win me over!
I think it's pretty evident that a majority of the packs 'value' can be found in the cash shop currency given.
5-day early access - negligible/priceless depending on the individual
Access to all 3 betas - negligible/priceless depending on the individual(Twitch/Justin.tv/youtube viewer spikes/subscriptions?)
Skin - $25
Mount - $25
Pet - $10
Regalia Mask - negligible/priceless depending on the individual
Priority log in - negligible/priceless depending on the individual
Aura(reusable?) - $15
12 slot bag - $5
Early Foundry - negligible/priceless depending on the individual
Lev 60 Weapon box - $10
Access to mask tavern - negligible/priceless depending on the individual
Helper pack - $5
Respec token - $10
Enchantment(reusable) - $5
Robe of Useless Items - negligible/priceless depending on the individual
3 character slots - $25
750,000 Astral Diamonds - after assessment
Estimated Value - $549
Totaling: $135
Difference = $412
Do you have ANY basis in fact for these numbers, or are they just wild speculation?
Given PWE's notoriety for 100 zen = $1.00, I could easily see 100 zen = 1,000 Astral Diamonds. At that conversion rate, they are essentially giving you almost double the zen for the same price.
Assuming Foundry will have cash shop items unlocking events/tools/triggers/traps/mobs, if you are a fan of making campaigns then this is a great deal.
Cryptic has stated they are not planning on having customer pay for anything in the foundry. They don't want to charge people to create content for their game.
First, if you dump a thousand dollars in the game, and you arent a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, you need to go take lessons from the honey badger. Second, i bought it, cuz im a DnD fan of old. back when the kitchen was lime green and orange, i was rolling my dice, losing my dice, tearing the house apart looking for my dice. lol..
Third, cryptic is really good at balancing the store vs game aquired stuff, as has been noted. If you have played star trek online ever, you can see a model they have already done. Now, i personally have a lifetime sub to sto, and the hero pack from here, because i want this game to have future content added. I want them to want to do it. I want the foundry to totally rock. sure, take my 200 bucks. Im not very worried, because it is a DnD name, and so far, they have the most solid track record in the history of roll playing.
I was about to plop down some money to get into the bata butttt than I saw who is behind this game and never again will I give this company my money lol. I will wait until nda gets lifted and this gets a review. It is cool that it is going to be f2p..but nah..not putting money down to test a product for this company lol. Made that mistake already in the past.
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amorraMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
So not from any numbers provided by Crypt or PWE specifically about NW got it.
Is looking at the other PWE games a bad gauge on how much the items 'might' cost? While it is true we have no hard numbers, and the value may be a little more or less, it is still a good break down of the what the general costs of the individual parts COULD be. If we would like to nit-pick however, we are not getting anything physical for the money we spend. So the true value of the packages depends on the personal prefrence of the potential buyer.
For me, the instant access to the foundry was more than incentive. But I am me, and the value I place on items is factored by nothing more than personal taste and opinion.
I can't believe someone called the pack pay to win. The devs already went over this at one of the conventions "The micro-transactions are convenience and costume type items, not power, no one wants to play a play to win mmo"
People will always use inflammatory phrasing to look down on things they don't like. The whole "this is all pay2win" <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> is people either not understanding the true meaning of pay to win or just using the pay2win wording to inflame people against something they don't like. True pay2win is like a potion in the store that gives for 5x damage for one hour and no where else in the game to get a damage multiplier or a +10 sword that doubles all damage where you can only get a max of a +5 sword that just does normal damage from drops in the game.
But it totally doesn't surprise me that people are complaining. Complaining, being rude to people, and talking smack are the biggest use of the internet, even more so than <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
Is looking at the other PWE games a bad gauge on how much the items 'might' cost? While it is true we have no hard numbers, and the value may be a little more or less, it is still a good break down of the what the general costs of the individual parts COULD be. If we would like to nit-pick however, we are not getting anything physical for the money we spend. So the true value of the packages depends on the personal prefrence of the potential buyer.
For me, the instant access to the foundry was more than incentive. But I am me, and the value I place on items is factored by nothing more than personal taste and opinion.
Its not a bad gauge it is just not an extremely accurate one. Even across PWE games prices on similar items are not the same, in some cases not even close. By not close I mean in some cases a 25% to 30% difference or more.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited February 2013
The way I see it is that those numbers aren't that far off when itemized the way asdfasdfgf did.
20 dollars for a skin/mount skin is just about what I would expect for a high end, high demand texture on a different game.
As long as the founders pack reached 100 dollars, about what I feel all the cosmetic ends are, then we get to the point of calculating the default Astral Diamond rate...
Comments
I didn't claim anything was p2w or wasn't I just added the comment as food for thought. I have been in "what is p2w" debates before in this forum and have learned to avoid such discussions and more than likely I wasn't in the camp you seem to presume I am in.
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
DDO Tome of Experience.
A permanent buff to your character, even if you reroll him/her. You get 50% buff to all experience for the first time you do it, and 20% for every time after that. Combine that with the experience pots you can buy. And you get double experience for cash for ever.... And that's just one of the many P2W things added to DDO over the past couple of years.
I have a couple of still-life cameras installed in my barn. If the gentlemen would like to assemble for a few nice shots ? Just for the Community album !
I kind of agree. It is more of an opinion rather than fact.
Oh wait I already have it... GG.
No need to be defensive, I was just wondering if you had an example. I'm interested in what people consider to be p2w.
Wasn't being defensive, thus the smiley at the end, just was explaining why I didn't want to go further into this or provide examples.
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
In a game with a maximum of 60 levels (at launch) I don't believe getting to 15 should be that hard.
Plus, when I can play the game I plan on actually playing for a decent amount of time before I start working on any Foundry Content. To me it doesn't make much sense to build content for a game you haven't played. *shrugs*
Not angry in the slightest, just massively confused
Take no offense and continue as you were.
Just like to say that when I seen these prices for the packs offered, my jaw dropped.....
What I would like a dev to tell us or whom ever it concerns is what is the break down for the $200.00 pack items if I am a F2P'er?
In other words what is the cost to me if I am to purchase all this stuff in game as opposed to getting the $200 pack.
All I can say is if I change my mind, that mount better do a dance for in game money, because I don't want Joe F2P's horse doing the same thing, seeing how the $200 pack is supposed to be regular price of $549.00.
How can one even make a claim like that and not...expect the buyer to think they are going to have a better experience?
Someone is going to take a pay cut for that lame brain idea.
Yikes!!!!
" May The Wind be Always At Your Back "
Which still puts non-spenders closer to the spenders than they would be in a paywalled system, where they'd be at ZERO until they payed, and at zero again once they stop paying.
Spenders will be ahead of non-spenders; with F2P, they'll be closer than the infinite distance they are in P2P or even B2P, no matter WHAT's in the store. And Cryptic always endeavors to have EVERYTHING in the cash shop be available via play, if you're willing to invest the time. The only item in CO that I can recall that you can't get via ingame play is color customization of your powers, which is obviously cosmetic. The only item in STO that I can recall that you can't get via ingame play is the Chimera ship, which is very nice but nowhere near as good as a number of other ships you can get via play, whether that's via spending EC and Dilithium directly, or trading Dilithium for Zen, or spending EC to purchase the ships, or spending EC to purchase lockbox keys and possibly win the ships.
This isn't going to be an Open World PvP system, where coming in later means you get owned every time you step outside the safe zone. You'll be able to catch up. You can enter Champions Online today and catch up with people who've been playing since launch, without spending a dime, even if they spend hundreds of dollars; and while you're catching up, you're not at any disadvantage that slows your play due the presence of higher-level characters.
The F2P model Cryptic uses does nothing but benefit you, short and long term. Yes, getting all the game's benefits is expensive; it would be with a subscription model, too. Developers get paid the same whether they're writing a subscription triple-A title or an F2P triple-A title. Servers cost the same either way. Advertising costs the same. (Well, maybe less with F2P, since the word of mouth advertising is greatly increased.) But Cryptic's track record, though full of stumbles and falters like everybody else feeling this new paradigm out, is one of avoiding the "gun to your head" approach. They don't charge for content; they charge for Cosmetics and Convenience. They make mistakes, but they're honest mistakes, and thus correctable.
So what? There's still a level cap. That's not "pay to win", that's "pay to get to the cap a couple weeks quicker". You catch up in short order. Hitting the cap is the beginning of your character's journey, not the end. XP boosts are conveniences.
It's like in the martial arts, where from the outside you think a black belt is the end of the journey, but once you're on the inside, you realize that a black belt means you've learned enough of the basics to begin learning the martial arts.
Just FYI the race is free, the custom background for Renegade is the pay one.
Since this is Cryptic's first free ground up F2P MMO not possible.
Not released what the caps for high and low will be but this will be determined by the AD exchange.
And everybody, this is a vent thread, as long as basic decorum rules here, feel free to speak your mind on this like the "Beta Anxiety" thread.
I think it's pretty evident that a majority of the packs 'value' can be found in the cash shop currency given.
5-day early access - negligible/priceless depending on the individual
Access to all 3 betas - negligible/priceless depending on the individual(Twitch/Justin.tv/youtube viewer spikes/subscriptions?)
Skin - $25
Mount - $25
Pet - $10
Regalia Mask - negligible/priceless depending on the individual
Priority log in - negligible/priceless depending on the individual
Aura(reusable?) - $15
12 slot bag - $5
Early Foundry - negligible/priceless depending on the individual
Lev 60 Weapon box - $10
Access to mask tavern - negligible/priceless depending on the individual
Helper pack - $5
Respec token - $10
Enchantment(reusable) - $5
Robe of Useless Items - negligible/priceless depending on the individual
3 character slots - $25
750,000 Astral Diamonds - after assessment
Estimated Value - $549
Totaling: $135
Difference = $412
750,000 / $412 = 1820 Astral Diamonds per $1.00
Given PWE's notoriety for 100 zen = $1.00, I could easily see 100 zen = 1,000 Astral Diamonds. At that conversion rate, they are essentially giving you almost double the zen for the same price.
Assuming Foundry will have cash shop items unlocking events/tools/triggers/traps/mobs, if you are a fan of making campaigns then this is a great deal.
Given PWE's history of costumes costing anywhere from $5 - $20, if you like cosmetic stuff, again it's a great deal. They are simply asking players to take advantage of their gratuity up front, instead of slowly grinding in-game currency for zen exchange or slowly spending $400 on cash shop items throughout the course of your experience.
If I wore hats I would take mine off to you sir!
If your math is correct then you may perfectly reasonable sense.
Also you can easily lower the prices of all those items and throw in a few dollar values into the 'negligible' items so some of the cosmetics aren't priced so high. $20 Dollars to have a Drow Renegade Costume and $20 dollars for a Spider Mount seem completely reasonable in those terms.
*googly eyes* Congradulations. You have managed to win me over!
Cryptic has stated they are not planning on having customer pay for anything in the foundry. They don't want to charge people to create content for their game.
Third, cryptic is really good at balancing the store vs game aquired stuff, as has been noted. If you have played star trek online ever, you can see a model they have already done. Now, i personally have a lifetime sub to sto, and the hero pack from here, because i want this game to have future content added. I want them to want to do it. I want the foundry to totally rock. sure, take my 200 bucks. Im not very worried, because it is a DnD name, and so far, they have the most solid track record in the history of roll playing.
Himmelville - Are you easily frightened?
Click Here
On one side of the mountain, there were bones...
For me, the instant access to the foundry was more than incentive. But I am me, and the value I place on items is factored by nothing more than personal taste and opinion.
People will always use inflammatory phrasing to look down on things they don't like. The whole "this is all pay2win" <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> is people either not understanding the true meaning of pay to win or just using the pay2win wording to inflame people against something they don't like. True pay2win is like a potion in the store that gives for 5x damage for one hour and no where else in the game to get a damage multiplier or a +10 sword that doubles all damage where you can only get a max of a +5 sword that just does normal damage from drops in the game.
But it totally doesn't surprise me that people are complaining. Complaining, being rude to people, and talking smack are the biggest use of the internet, even more so than <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
Its not a bad gauge it is just not an extremely accurate one. Even across PWE games prices on similar items are not the same, in some cases not even close. By not close I mean in some cases a 25% to 30% difference or more.
20 dollars for a skin/mount skin is just about what I would expect for a high end, high demand texture on a different game.
As long as the founders pack reached 100 dollars, about what I feel all the cosmetic ends are, then we get to the point of calculating the default Astral Diamond rate...
750,000 / $449 = 1670 Astral Diamonds per $1.
That sounds about right to me.