nobbemMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 7Arc User
edited January 2013
I rather pay X amount of cash every month then have to pay X$ for BS stuff like bag space and scrolls... It's sad because this game really looks awesome.
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shiaikaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, SilverstarsPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2013
"Please explain the Founder's Pack hate" First World Problems.
<pseudorandomrambling>
Reasons are mostly subjective and therefore, their validity is quite questionable and in some cases depend too much on hindsight... which we won't get anytime soon.
As long as the packs themsleves don't have some balance issues on normal gameplay and are optionals (and they seem to be, despite what you could argue about the extra item slots), there is nothing awfully wrong with them per se.
Hate for drow stuff? Drizzt clones? Let me tell you that worse than the Drizzt clones are the Drizzt (clone) haters. I don't see Drizzt clones spamming the threads about how much they love the menzoberranzan thing of the fat pack.
People cutting their wrists because they may have not access to stuff from any of the packs? Emos.
The hero pack gets lots of attention because the price is high and there is no transparency about the real correlation of price vs value. This point sounds serious to me, aceptable to discuss about and maybe valid reason to "hate". The beta not being "on sale" but being used massively as hook is also questionable... or maybe my perception of the topic is too biased to perceive that I'm wrong.
</pseudorandomrambling>
But "GW2" is B2P game, not F2P like "Neverwinter". I don't understand your point.
I think that Starter Kit should give access to all beta weekends.
I actually agree that the Starter Kit should grant access to the beta weekends(if not all of them at least the last two as a purchase of TL2 and Raiderz starter pack do).
But... well, GW2 is a B2P game but it still has a cash shop and NW is a game that cost money to be made and will cost more to be maintained. And they do not sell anything game breaking in these packs.
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eljacko56Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2013
I am averse to this VIP Lounge business. I don't like it when games split people up like this, even on such a small scale.
The only thing which shocked me (not really hate) was this:-
dungeon master unlock
Start creating your own quests in The Foundry immediately.
Wasn't NW foundry supposed to be free for all where you can create content without having to play the game? Has the previous marketing strategy been changed? Is that now something we have to pay for or unlock by playing the game forcibly?
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muzrub333Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I rather pay X amount of cash every month then have to pay X$ for BS stuff like bag space and scrolls... It's sad because this game really looks awesome.
You know, I was/am pretty much the same. I realized though, that for one, I am getting the game for free, which is nice, especially if it ends up being really bad. For another, if I really like the game, I can/will just buy $15.00 worth of Astral Diamonds every month, and buy all the stuff I want. Key being the stuff I want.
On Topic, I am glad some we have some "Whales" here to toss cash at the game. While I'd never drop a penny, (on a game that has released so little info), before I'd played it, I can't hate on those who have no problem doing so. Cryptic needs income, and if this works for them, then good for them.
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elveMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 336
The only thing which shocked me (not really hate) was this:-
Wasn't NW foundry supposed to be free for all where you can create content without having to play the game? Has the previous marketing strategy been changed? Is that now something we have to pay for or unlock by playing the game forcibly?
It is still free but you have to get a lvl 15 char first.
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muzrub333Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
The only thing which shocked me (not really hate) was this:-
Wasn't NW foundry supposed to be free for all where you can create content without having to play the game? Has the previous marketing strategy been changed? Is that now something we have to pay for or unlock by playing the game forcibly?
Which doesn't mean that they won't sell such things after release.
Well, of course we can only hope for that. I actually would want a system in Neverwinter similar to the one in GW2 - a player controlled cash currency economy with free exchange to in-game currency. ATM you can actually buy power in GW2 but you have to spend so much money that it is just not worth it.
I see a lot of hate going on about the Founder's Packs in the forum but nobody seems to be able to explain why. The only thing that seems to be reason is the guaranteed beta weekend access. Guess what guys - it is normal practice. Rift, Guild Wars 2, TERA, Age of Wushu, Path of Exile and The Secret World also did this - if you prepurchased you got into the beta weekends. Also the prices of the packs are comparable to the ones of Guild Wars 2 but seem to be offering a better value.
Rift, Guild Wars 2, TERA, Age of Wushu, Path of Exile and The Secret World... Several of these games also have changed business models.
I came from GW2 and had a problem with the bonus elite skill, because it said bad things to me about GW2 that they were willing to sell an exclusive elite skill that was not cosmetic only. I went ahead and played it anyways and then they went and changed directions with the game right after I could no longer get a refund. I regret ever buying the POS.
My ONLY problem with theses packs is that it sounds like the costume is not 100% cosmetic only.
Exclusive items should only be cosmetic only. People will still buy exclusive costume items without bonus stats.
When Exclusive items have bonus stats, it starts to become pay to win, and that chases a lot of people away.
Perfect World is an enormous company with a very large QA team that can be counted on to provide quality bug reports and gameplay feedback, professionals who are paid not to waste their time with "OMG THIS SUCK FIX IT NAO!!!!" type bug reports. They absolutely do not care about the feedback of the gameplay community beyond, "Do you like the game? Y/N" And really they don't even need that. The number of people logging on tells them all they need to know without us saying one word.
dequixoticMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2013
The hate doesn't make sense to me, even the people who say it isn't worth the value. If people want to support the game with a bunch of money and don't care much about the virtual goods they should be allowed whether it's $60 or $200. If the amount isn't worth it to you, don't purchase it.
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rs2965Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
rs2965, lanessar13, apart from the items they are throwing at you a bunch of currency as well which fills the gap between the immediately perceived value of the items and the value of the package.
ruinedimage, as far as I remember the case with the FFXIV thing was that the community from the beta complained but the devs didn't listen so as long as the developers listen a beta test is productive. Still they are not calling this beta test but beta weekends. It is not even "Beta Test Weekend" it is just a preview of the game and I really doubt it will be under any NDA. As I said - the beta testing is going on even as we speak and it is completely different instance of beta than the ones that will be launched at the weekends that is really meant to test the load on the servers and to bring some more hype to the game. You previously said that you have problem with the way the beta weekend participants are selected but you seem to forget that these are not the main testers of the game.
That's great, but I have NO idea what 750,000 whatever does for me. What is it? What does it buy? Do you know? Because I certainly don't.
Speaking of which; I haven't seen the game...Have you? I have no idea if this game is worth throwing that kind of money away for or it it will even last past 6 months. It's an awful lot of faith to put into a game that doesn't really exist yet.
Furthermore, if I'm giving them an influx of cash for the game, then why do I feel like I'm taking all the risk in this deal? What is Cryptic REALLY risking by offering this deal which will result in more resources for them?
Look, I don't care what others want to do, but these sort of unbalanced deals hurt all of us since it encourages them and others to go even further. If we're sucker enough to go for this, some developer will push it even a bit further next time.
That's great, but I have NO idea what 750,000 whatever does for me. What is it? What does it buy? Do you know? Because I certainly don't.
Let's assume, for the sake of discussion, that it's going to be approximately of similar value to the equivalent currency in Star Trek Online, Dilithium ("Dil" for short).
Dil is used in the purchase of high-end gear (including that purchased with reputation from raiding). It's also used for crafting, and it can be traded to other players for Zen, the "real money transaction" currency. You can also, through selling either the gear you buy with Dil directly or the gear you can obtain with Zen from Dil exchanges, use it to obtain Energy Credits (or "EC"), which are the currency used for lower-tier gear and the sort of consumables you're liable to buy on a daily basis.
Dil currently goes for Zen at an exchange rate of about 95:1, due to some in-game factors that have pushed that price very far in that direction. Long term it's been more like 150, so I'll calculate using both methods. The most Dil a single character can obtain in a day of play is 8,000, except for a Lifetime Subscriber, who can effectively make it 9,000. Let's assume 8,000 is more typical for a heavy player. (Most players don't cap out their Dil on even a single character per day, but enough do so on multiple characters that we can work with 8,000 as a good number.)
At 95:1, 750,000 Dil would be 7,894 Zen, or $78.94 US. At 150:1, it's right at 5,000 Zen, or $50. So that alone is a $50-$79 value. At 8,000 per day, that's 93 character/days of grinding.
This should help you gauge the value of Astral Diamonds if they are comparable to Dilithium. I cannot guarantee they will be comparable, of course, but I think it's a good ballpark figure to assume an exchange rate of somewhere between 95:1 and 150:1, and similar rates of return on ingame drops, at least for the same of discussion for now. There's not been a time limit announced for these packages, so you've got plenty of time to decide.
Look, I don't care what others want to do, but these sort of unbalanced deals hurt all of us since it encourages them and others to go even further. If we're sucker enough to go for this, some developer will push it even a bit further next time.
It sounds like you have a very strong opinion about what others want to do. By all means, don't buy the packages if you don't feel that they have value, or if you don't feel their value is well known to you; but some of us feel we do know enough to make an informed choice. Don't assume we're making the wrong choice for us just because it's the wrong choice for you.
That's great, but I have NO idea what 750,000 whatever does for me. What is it? What does it buy? Do you know? Because I certainly don't.
I don't think we've announced what you'll be able to get with Astral Diamonds, but if it's helpful you can look at their equivalents in Champions Online (Questionite) and Star Trek Online (Dilithium). In the Questionite store for Champions, you can get some high-end gear, vanity pets, costumes, and more.
Hope that helps.
EDIT: Got ninja'd; syberghost has a good STO perspective on Dilithium, so between the two of us we have an overview of the Astral Diamond equivalents in both other active Cryptic games.
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rs2965Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
But i was just going to use it on big macs and redbull anyway so... founders it is.
At least, Big Macs and Redbull would sustain your life...though not very well. This is just throwing money into the wind.
I find the Drizzt clone thing a bit odd. But, I'm from the perspective of wondering why Cryptic would limit the pool of interested individuals to only those whom a Drizzt clone would be appealing.
Why not offer some sort of options to get as many people interested in the $200 package as possible? The whole thing seems really poorly thought out to me.
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rs2965Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I don't think we've announced what you'll be able to get with Astral Diamonds, but if it's helpful you can look at their equivalents in Champions Online (Questionite) and Star Trek Online (Dilithium). In the Questionite store for Champions, you can get some high-end gear, vanity pets, costumes, and more.
Hope that helps.
EDIT: Got ninja'd; syberghost has a good STO perspective on Dilithium, so between the two of us we have an overview of the Astral Diamond equivalents in both other active Cryptic games.
I actually have an LTS in STO - had it since it was first offered in beta, which should say something about how I am willing to pay, take risk, and put some faith into Cryptic. But, when they offered that, they were taking the chance that I'd end up as a free player not giving them a dime after I used up my $250 (or whatever I paid) worth of value. For the record, I have no regrets and I still enjoy STO - I feel I got a real value and I felt it when I bought it...I'm not feeling it with this.
However, if 750,000 jewel thingies basically equates to what I would expect to get for 750,000 Dilithium in STO, then I feel at least, marginally better. I'd feel better yet if I got a z-store stipend like I get in STO.
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geddings12Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, SilverstarsPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2013
You gotta keep in mind that this is for a game thats free to play overall and unlike other MMOs there are no subscriptions period so no need for any sort of monthly payment to get the "best options" all in game items i assume will just be cosmetic or things like mounts/costumes xp boosts etc from the store. Sure both seem pricey but to me i see it as perks and as a way to be a part of a game if you have been a really big fan. (more akin to a Collectors edition so to speak) to me its a one time fee for a few cool perks and earlier access that will be quite fun. I dont see a problem with it and your not "just" paying for beta access so.......its up to you. Chose it or not but complaining about it isnt really going to help
besides they gotta earn their money someway right? and for the devs this would be a nice income boost before the game comes out to make their hard work to pay off.
I am happy and excited to be a part of it :-).
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sadistMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
just going to throw my 2 cents in, but the reason i bought my pack was a 2 parter... 1 a friend wanted the key so i was like sure why not. and 2 i played DDO once upon a time HATED IT and when i say HATE i mean despised it, so when i got into the last beta weekend i felt it was completely justified... on one had i got to make a friend happy, on the other i got to see the game that can kill DDO and wipe its memory from my mind.
so between the two of us we have an overview of the Astral Diamond equivalents in both other active Cryptic games.
But you still don't have a good handle on the equivalents in THIS game, because no trading has occurred yet. You have SPECULATIVE EVIDENCE, but no hard facts.
You can't even say that there'll be people willing to trade their zen for AD. You can speculate, however.
Let's suppose that nobody puts zen up for trade. What then? A player is stuck grinding out AD for ingame purchases alone, yes? Pretty sure Cryptic isn't going to trade zen for AD out of the kindness of it's corporate heart.
And even if the exchange rate IS the predicted amounts, it still leaves the Cryptic Assigned value of $549 - (I'll go with the max, just for giggles) $79 = $470 dollars free. Personally, that still leaves a boatload of "value" that's unaccounted for, and early beta access has no value at all. Neither does an early start to the game, for if you can't assign a price to something, you can't sell it. Try doing so with stock on the stock market, or even goods in a store. No price = free. I can't speak for anyone else, but it's the false advertising and blatant money grab scheme of the "Founder's Packs" that ticks me off.
But you still don't have a good handle on the equivalents in THIS game, because no trading has occurred yet. You have SPECULATIVE EVIDENCE, but no hard facts.
You can't even say that there'll be people willing to trade their zen for AD. You can speculate, however.
Let's suppose that nobody puts zen up for trade. What then? A player is stuck grinding out AD for ingame purchases alone, yes? Pretty sure Cryptic isn't going to trade zen for AD out of the kindness of it's corporate heart.
And even if the exchange rate IS the predicted amounts, it still leaves the Cryptic Assigned value of $549 - (I'll go with the max, just for giggles) $79 = $470 dollars free. Personally, that still leaves a boatload of "value" that's unaccounted for, and early beta access has no value at all. Neither does an early start to the game, for if you can't assign a price to something, you can't sell it. Try doing so with stock on the stock market, or even goods in a store. No price = free. I can't speak for anyone else, but it's the false advertising and blatant money grab scheme of the "Founder's Packs" that ticks me off.
Well theirs no way you can go by assigned value its a marketing technique thats used by thousands of buisnesses and not to be mistaken by actual value which is the actual cost you buy an item for. I'm sure theirs a way to say its a $549 (now $700) value by simply saying thats how much they had to pay the devs that worked on the peices for X hours. (much like a craftsmen that makes figures from glass time=money)
Its important to note assigned value =/= actual value as in the example with a craftsmen making glass figures glass is relatively cheap but time and aquired skills are not.
Zen to AD conversions will occur its not a question of if but by how much cannot be stated until the market is first started... and settles a month or 6 later. (i've already seen zen to AD conversion offers + i might be tempted to do a bit of it myself).
Comments
First World Problems.
<pseudorandomrambling>
Reasons are mostly subjective and therefore, their validity is quite questionable and in some cases depend too much on hindsight... which we won't get anytime soon.
As long as the packs themsleves don't have some balance issues on normal gameplay and are optionals (and they seem to be, despite what you could argue about the extra item slots), there is nothing awfully wrong with them per se.
Hate for drow stuff? Drizzt clones? Let me tell you that worse than the Drizzt clones are the Drizzt (clone) haters. I don't see Drizzt clones spamming the threads about how much they love the menzoberranzan thing of the fat pack.
People cutting their wrists because they may have not access to stuff from any of the packs? Emos.
The hero pack gets lots of attention because the price is high and there is no transparency about the real correlation of price vs value. This point sounds serious to me, aceptable to discuss about and maybe valid reason to "hate". The beta not being "on sale" but being used massively as hook is also questionable... or maybe my perception of the topic is too biased to perceive that I'm wrong.
</pseudorandomrambling>
So haters gonna hate.
But i was just going to use it on big macs and redbull anyway so... founders it is.
I think that Starter Kit should give access to all beta weekends.
But... well, GW2 is a B2P game but it still has a cash shop and NW is a game that cost money to be made and will cost more to be maintained. And they do not sell anything game breaking in these packs.
Wasn't NW foundry supposed to be free for all where you can create content without having to play the game? Has the previous marketing strategy been changed? Is that now something we have to pay for or unlock by playing the game forcibly?
You know, I was/am pretty much the same. I realized though, that for one, I am getting the game for free, which is nice, especially if it ends up being really bad. For another, if I really like the game, I can/will just buy $15.00 worth of Astral Diamonds every month, and buy all the stuff I want. Key being the stuff I want.
On Topic, I am glad some we have some "Whales" here to toss cash at the game. While I'd never drop a penny, (on a game that has released so little info), before I'd played it, I can't hate on those who have no problem doing so. Cryptic needs income, and if this works for them, then good for them.
It is still free but you have to get a lvl 15 char first.
Explained to me earlier here.
That is not what the devs said earlier. Has there been an official confirmation that it is so with regards to Neverwinter?
Here, I hope this is official enough for you.
Well, of course we can only hope for that. I actually would want a system in Neverwinter similar to the one in GW2 - a player controlled cash currency economy with free exchange to in-game currency. ATM you can actually buy power in GW2 but you have to spend so much money that it is just not worth it.
Rift, Guild Wars 2, TERA, Age of Wushu, Path of Exile and The Secret World... Several of these games also have changed business models.
I came from GW2 and had a problem with the bonus elite skill, because it said bad things to me about GW2 that they were willing to sell an exclusive elite skill that was not cosmetic only. I went ahead and played it anyways and then they went and changed directions with the game right after I could no longer get a refund. I regret ever buying the POS.
My ONLY problem with theses packs is that it sounds like the costume is not 100% cosmetic only.
Exclusive items should only be cosmetic only. People will still buy exclusive costume items without bonus stats.
When Exclusive items have bonus stats, it starts to become pay to win, and that chases a lot of people away.
If that was true, why did they create this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcf7PzmUF6Q
That's Falkoren; he's still with Cryptic QA.
They want, and value, beta tester input.
That's great, but I have NO idea what 750,000 whatever does for me. What is it? What does it buy? Do you know? Because I certainly don't.
Speaking of which; I haven't seen the game...Have you? I have no idea if this game is worth throwing that kind of money away for or it it will even last past 6 months. It's an awful lot of faith to put into a game that doesn't really exist yet.
Furthermore, if I'm giving them an influx of cash for the game, then why do I feel like I'm taking all the risk in this deal? What is Cryptic REALLY risking by offering this deal which will result in more resources for them?
Look, I don't care what others want to do, but these sort of unbalanced deals hurt all of us since it encourages them and others to go even further. If we're sucker enough to go for this, some developer will push it even a bit further next time.
Let's assume, for the sake of discussion, that it's going to be approximately of similar value to the equivalent currency in Star Trek Online, Dilithium ("Dil" for short).
Dil is used in the purchase of high-end gear (including that purchased with reputation from raiding). It's also used for crafting, and it can be traded to other players for Zen, the "real money transaction" currency. You can also, through selling either the gear you buy with Dil directly or the gear you can obtain with Zen from Dil exchanges, use it to obtain Energy Credits (or "EC"), which are the currency used for lower-tier gear and the sort of consumables you're liable to buy on a daily basis.
Dil currently goes for Zen at an exchange rate of about 95:1, due to some in-game factors that have pushed that price very far in that direction. Long term it's been more like 150, so I'll calculate using both methods. The most Dil a single character can obtain in a day of play is 8,000, except for a Lifetime Subscriber, who can effectively make it 9,000. Let's assume 8,000 is more typical for a heavy player. (Most players don't cap out their Dil on even a single character per day, but enough do so on multiple characters that we can work with 8,000 as a good number.)
At 95:1, 750,000 Dil would be 7,894 Zen, or $78.94 US. At 150:1, it's right at 5,000 Zen, or $50. So that alone is a $50-$79 value. At 8,000 per day, that's 93 character/days of grinding.
This should help you gauge the value of Astral Diamonds if they are comparable to Dilithium. I cannot guarantee they will be comparable, of course, but I think it's a good ballpark figure to assume an exchange rate of somewhere between 95:1 and 150:1, and similar rates of return on ingame drops, at least for the same of discussion for now. There's not been a time limit announced for these packages, so you've got plenty of time to decide.
It sounds like you have a very strong opinion about what others want to do. By all means, don't buy the packages if you don't feel that they have value, or if you don't feel their value is well known to you; but some of us feel we do know enough to make an informed choice. Don't assume we're making the wrong choice for us just because it's the wrong choice for you.
I don't think we've announced what you'll be able to get with Astral Diamonds, but if it's helpful you can look at their equivalents in Champions Online (Questionite) and Star Trek Online (Dilithium). In the Questionite store for Champions, you can get some high-end gear, vanity pets, costumes, and more.
Hope that helps.
EDIT: Got ninja'd; syberghost has a good STO perspective on Dilithium, so between the two of us we have an overview of the Astral Diamond equivalents in both other active Cryptic games.
At least, Big Macs and Redbull would sustain your life...though not very well. This is just throwing money into the wind.
I find the Drizzt clone thing a bit odd. But, I'm from the perspective of wondering why Cryptic would limit the pool of interested individuals to only those whom a Drizzt clone would be appealing.
Why not offer some sort of options to get as many people interested in the $200 package as possible? The whole thing seems really poorly thought out to me.
I actually have an LTS in STO - had it since it was first offered in beta, which should say something about how I am willing to pay, take risk, and put some faith into Cryptic. But, when they offered that, they were taking the chance that I'd end up as a free player not giving them a dime after I used up my $250 (or whatever I paid) worth of value. For the record, I have no regrets and I still enjoy STO - I feel I got a real value and I felt it when I bought it...I'm not feeling it with this.
However, if 750,000 jewel thingies basically equates to what I would expect to get for 750,000 Dilithium in STO, then I feel at least, marginally better. I'd feel better yet if I got a z-store stipend like I get in STO.
besides they gotta earn their money someway right? and for the devs this would be a nice income boost before the game comes out to make their hard work to pay off.
I am happy and excited to be a part of it :-).
Things you'll never hear men say:
1. There is to much air.
2. I bought way to many six-packs when I went shopping.
3. These women have way to little on. (ok.. most men)
As for why the hate? Haters gonna hate.
But you still don't have a good handle on the equivalents in THIS game, because no trading has occurred yet. You have SPECULATIVE EVIDENCE, but no hard facts.
You can't even say that there'll be people willing to trade their zen for AD. You can speculate, however.
Let's suppose that nobody puts zen up for trade. What then? A player is stuck grinding out AD for ingame purchases alone, yes? Pretty sure Cryptic isn't going to trade zen for AD out of the kindness of it's corporate heart.
And even if the exchange rate IS the predicted amounts, it still leaves the Cryptic Assigned value of $549 - (I'll go with the max, just for giggles) $79 = $470 dollars free. Personally, that still leaves a boatload of "value" that's unaccounted for, and early beta access has no value at all. Neither does an early start to the game, for if you can't assign a price to something, you can't sell it. Try doing so with stock on the stock market, or even goods in a store. No price = free. I can't speak for anyone else, but it's the false advertising and blatant money grab scheme of the "Founder's Packs" that ticks me off.
Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
Well theirs no way you can go by assigned value its a marketing technique thats used by thousands of buisnesses and not to be mistaken by actual value which is the actual cost you buy an item for. I'm sure theirs a way to say its a $549 (now $700) value by simply saying thats how much they had to pay the devs that worked on the peices for X hours. (much like a craftsmen that makes figures from glass time=money)
Its important to note assigned value =/= actual value as in the example with a craftsmen making glass figures glass is relatively cheap but time and aquired skills are not.
Zen to AD conversions will occur its not a question of if but by how much cannot be stated until the market is first started... and settles a month or 6 later. (i've already seen zen to AD conversion offers + i might be tempted to do a bit of it myself).
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