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Please explain the Founder's Pack hate
elve
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 336
I see a lot of hate going on about the Founder's Packs in the forum but nobody seems to be able to explain why. The only thing that seems to be reason is the guaranteed beta weekend access. Guess what guys - it is normal practice. Rift, Guild Wars 2, TERA, Age of Wushu, Path of Exile and The Secret World also did this - if you prepurchased you got into the beta weekends. Also the prices of the packs are comparable to the ones of Guild Wars 2 but seem to be offering a better value.
For the ones that say that the only valuable thing in the founder's pack is the beta access - this is not true either. You get a cool mount and a cool pet as well as some cash shop currency and general swag to show that you are supporting the game. On the other hand this stuff is not game breaking as it is not exclusive content or power(well, dunno about the pet really). Everyone will have access to the same content once the game is released - the same classes, the same races(except the reskin of the drows for the Hero of the North Founder's Pack), same zones, quests and dungeons. Also developers have to eat too. So why the hate?
For the ones that say that the only valuable thing in the founder's pack is the beta access - this is not true either. You get a cool mount and a cool pet as well as some cash shop currency and general swag to show that you are supporting the game. On the other hand this stuff is not game breaking as it is not exclusive content or power(well, dunno about the pet really). Everyone will have access to the same content once the game is released - the same classes, the same races(except the reskin of the drows for the Hero of the North Founder's Pack), same zones, quests and dungeons. Also developers have to eat too. So why the hate?
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I'm personally not a fan of the packages, because the company is claiming value on in-game items which doesn't add up. Even using other Cryptic games and the pricing model which exists for them, the $549 value package comes out to $120 worth of in-game items and beta access (which Cryptic CM has specifically stated they are not charging for). This leaves $429 worth of value which can only be assigned to the founder's title and access to the VIP lounge. This is based on current pricing models of existing z-store items.
And I'm not entirely sure the items being offered (personally) will never be re-sold. With such a high demand, if they can charge $50 for a Drizzt background, you better believe PWE will sell that after release at some point. Too much money to be made off of selling it.
CALLED FOUNDERS PACK DISLIKE
Heres why theres hate.
I think offering a service for fans is not the same as charging to be a beta tester.
I think everyone is more outraged that pwe or cryptic would charge people to be beta testers.
What this says to me is actually its NOT beta, its just a pre game lauch or a system test bringing on more users combined with a way of generating profits.
After all how much can you learn from 100 drizzt's running round with a panther on a giant armoured spider.
I intent on spedning 40$ on the game when it lauches for vanity or character slots or inventory space etc. however it is cryptics job to make us want to spend the cash on the game. THAT IS WHAT A FREE TO PAY MODEL DOES.
People are outraged at paying for BETA. No one will complain if the game was live and you wee paying for an armoured spider mount.
The problem is fans wanting just to play the game early to see if they like it. Beta is about testing, not saving yourself some cash.
Charging to be a beta tester is more or less immoral, it is not conducive to overall testing and therefore future game experience. Cryptic obviously have the game in a near enough finished state and are using these weekends as A way to generate interest and make some dough. I DO NOT object to the money making, i hope they make lots in the future and this game is a success. I find the concept of charging $200 abhorrent and that knowing there are naive, eager people who will spent money or get there parents to spend money on a game that is supposedly just in beta face is just outrageous.
People dropping the cash to play the game im fine with, only giving a three weekend access over 2 months and calling it beta is what is getting my back up. Let people test the game and find bugs if thats what they REALLY want them to do. But i doubt thats what this 'promotion' is for.
Beta has not been about testing for a very, very, very long time.
Today, beta testing gives the developers two opportunities only, and they are these:
1. Do the servers hold up under load?
2. Promote the game!
I suppose if you were feeling generous you could say that they can also take the opportunity to get some general feedback on their game design, but I wouldn't even count on that. The reason for this is because of the thousands of people who will apply for beta, maybe a hundred of them know how to create a useful bug report or write a helpful forum post. The rest are, I'm sorry to say, the howler monkeys of today's gaming population. The only thing they can be counted on to do is, hopefully, like the game and break the NDA enough to tell all their friends how great it is.
That's beta testing in today's world.
First of all, people have the right to spend money on whatever they want and be happy. Power to you. It's also good to support the company so they have resources to work with, too.
That aside, the problem I have is their order of beta testers, to put it simply. Priority access is given to those that pay the most money. Priority access means first say in how to make the game better through beta testing, and as testing goes on, it becomes increasingly difficult to make additional changes. That's the short story.
The meat lies in WHO is getting this priority access, WHY are they getting access first, and WHAT are they going to do once they're in? I can't speak for everyone, and I know it'll sound like I'm generalizing. I also haven't seen the most recent updates to testing order yet, either.
Who is getting first beta? The ones who have been active in the community? The ones who have supported the company since the beginning? The ones who help bring in friends to this site or try to help the company's reputation? The ones who spent money to get into beta way back when there was less info than there is now? Nope. The ones who paid the most money. Now, I'm maintaining a little bit of faith that these people want to help with actual beta testing, and NOT just get a free preview, but with a founder pack slogan that yells, "Get this and make your friends jealous!", it's hard to keep my composure.
Games are shaped in their earliest stages. We've gone through alpha, and now it's time to bring in some of the audience to see what they think. The game will be further shaped to reflect what their target audience wants in the game. But wait, who is their target audience again? Long-term followers? Active members of their own site? No. The people who have the money to burn. If you had a game in development, who would you look to for first reactions and help for the game's direction in order to be successful? The fanbase who has supported you since day one because they love the concept, or the people you got off a social network because they paid you? What will be better in the long run?
I'll reiterate that it sounds like I'm generalizing, and I know that there are some long standing members here that are probably getting the pack in order to get first weekend access to help shape the game. Likewise, there's also chance that quality feedback may be had from spontaneous-source beta testers. And most importantly, I'm not judging what you should or shouldn't do with your own money.
I'll admit that I DO believe that some people should be entitled to play and help shape the game before others; the people who have given the most support and have the best intentions for the game to be a success. And no, I'm not speaking for myself. You can see my first posting date (though reading forums here since like July 2012).
Finally, for all the people who DID buy the packs and are granted the earliest access to the beta, I want to know HOW you're going to spend your time helping to test and find bugs, iron out issues, hear you give feedback, etc. I think that should be a standard question before any testers are allowed in, but then again, Cryptic isn't hiring beta testers.
i love you
I've been carefully reading the responses of people who state they are buying the $200 package. Don't get your hopes up. So far, the ones I've read have stated in no uncertain terms that they want a Drizzt character. I may have missed one or two, but yeah, these didn't sound like testers to me.
The simple truth is that Beta is no longer used for that purpose. See my post above.
Perfect World is an enormous company with a very large QA team that can be counted on to provide quality bug reports and gameplay feedback, professionals who are paid not to waste their time with "OMG THIS SUCK FIX IT NAO!!!!" type bug reports. They absolutely do not care about the feedback of the gameplay community beyond, "Do you like the game? Y/N" And really they don't even need that. The number of people logging on tells them all they need to know without us saying one word.
If you've beta tested any MMOs in recent years you know what I'm talking about. Beta community boards with hundreds of pages of feedback and bugs, 90% of which is worded and spelled so poorly you can't even begin to get your head around it, and perhaps twice a day a dev will post in a few random threads thanking everyone for their participation.
They aren't counting on the Beta community to provide them with anything other than warm bodies and, these days, an early return on their investment.
I intend on purchasing the $200 and have no intention on rolling a Drizzt. I've Alpha and Beta tested many a game over the years. Perhaps I'm one of the two you missed I guess.
[/SIGPIC]
The Older Gamers (25+) - Never too old to play games
I'll go one further. Even if the devs have well thought out feedback (with math and everything!) from a closed beta test, other than a patch breaking functionality or balance to the extreme, feedback is generally ignored.
This is what it is all about? You don't really accomplish anything moving pixel on the screen for virtual items. It is just for fun and the BETA access is not free if you buy the founders package. Personally I was waiting a long time for an official NWN persistent world.
I usually buy the collectors editions of games anyway (yes, I have some ring of mordor floating around in my room, some X3 stuff, Warhammer Online, a Golem and wolf pet in GW2 etc.) and if it gives me Beta access, the better for me. Other people spend money on their cars...
I stand corrected. Thanks for restoring my faith in humanity.. slightly.
About your points I would say this - it is pretty obvious that the beta weekends are meant as stress tests of the system rather than bug fixing and that there is another beta going on(for quite some time now) that is meant to find problems with the mechanics, the gameplay and the bugs. Also you are not paying to partake in this test but for the items you would receive afterwards as there are plenty other ways to acquire a key that will get you into the beta weekends.
The people who are going to buy the packs are either fans who want to support the game or people with too much money. I really doubt that anyone who is going to be playing the game casually is going to buy a founder's pack - it is quite obvious that 2 days of gameplay are not worth that much. Or are there people that cannot wait that much? If you are one of those I really doubt you are old enough to be handling cash anyway.
Anyway the founder packs are priced at $50 or $200 and they come with a reasonable amount cash shop currency so for most people it is just a burn - an early purchase for things that they will buy later anyway.
ruinedmirage, why do you think that people spending time basically enjoying themselves as they talk to people with the same interests are more deserving to play a game than paying customers? Unfortunately the free-to-play free players are a necessary evil so that the ones that buy stuff pay the bills. Free-to-play users are a product to be sold to the paying customers and they are getting their deal of it - they get to play the game for free. Some years back this game would have cost $50 anyway and there would be monthly fees. Hell, TERA came out last year and it was quite obvious that it is a free-to-play title right from the start but they decided to pack it and sell it with monthly fees anyway. I quite admire that Cryptic and PW do not do the same thing but instead have these packages that say "look, if you like our game - buy this, it gives you some benefits but it is mostly a way to suport the game". And for $200 of course you are going to enjoy yourself primarily but you can still say what does not stand right with you at the end of it all - as I said before there is a separate beta that is dealing with bug fixing, game mechanics and so on - and this is a stress test - it is enough to be there and to give your opinion by the end of it.
BTW, I am planning on buying the $50-60 pack and I have some experience beta testing but it is mostly a burn for me - for me reporting bugs and complaining about stuff does not end with the beta test phase.
Well, it doesn't restore mine.
Paying to get into the beta doesn't fly with this guy and I don't get where the OPs confusion stems from.
What they appear to be offering for a $200 price tag, is NOT worth the price. Early bata access and a few virtual items? Really?!?!
Compare this 'founders' pack to the STO Life Time Sub. Both from the same company and both about the same cost. The value is not even close to comparable.
I'm ready to fork over $200. I've got it and I want to give it, but I'm no idiot. You've got give something that FEELS like it closely warrants the price, and I'm just not seeing it. Throw in a monthly stipend, at least, and we can talk.
This offer, what we've seen of it, is insulting in its lack of value.
Now, if the armored domesticated spider is an actual giant armored spider which will be delivered to my home? Well, then...I'll go get my debit card.
I tend to agree. But I'd like the spider delivered to someone else's house, if you please. Not a fan of spiders.
Regardless, it seems like Cryptic is taking a page from MWO. But they missed a lesson. Purchasing the highest tiered founder's pack actually gave you $280 (approximately) worth of stuff for $120. And it's still worth that. Whether you like that game or not is another matter, but buying the package (or equivalent) would require you buy $300 in currency.
Based on the totals and even padding them, I can't see more than $150 in value. So, the other $400 equates to value from a founder's title and VIP access? It just puzzles me this was so poorly thought out. I know that a fool and his money, etc. etc. but there are points which defy belief in this one.
If you read my post, I don't have a problem with people spending their own money. Enthusiasts are what keep the game alive. I'm just more old-fashioned when it comes to the term "beta test", I guess. I want to see a great game. I want to see quality testing done.
But I have to think in present day terms. And currently, this is sounding a lot like FFXIV's first release. Paying to get into an unfinished game. Almost everyone I've heard from up until now has said, "Since I'm paying the money to play early, I shouldn't have to work. I should get to play and have fun." Justified, I'll grant you that.
But why the hell are they calling this a beta test then? Why not make Feb 8 the official release? What if you're NOT having fun, because the game is incomplete (like FFXIV was)? How many people will jump on the hate train to bash the game due to improper balance, incomplete content, bugs, potential wipes, etc.? The company replies with, "Oh, we TOLD you this was only beta." I guess all bases are covered.
One more time: I DON'T CARE HOW PEOPLE SPEND THEIR MONEY! I'M GLAD THE GAME IS BEING SUPPORTED! But to me, it just seems counter-productive how they're going about the whole beta testing thing. I agree with the above post, that beta testing today was been watered down to, "Do you like the game? Yes or no," rather than seeking valuable feedback from dedicated fans.
yes i pretty much said this ealier, so thanks for reinterating.
And its the very concept i ahve a problem with. Although im more than happy for people to throw away their money im not happy with the way its being sold and what its being sold as.
Thus is life. Video Games are not and should not be an exception to the rule. First Class on Air lines and so many other offer the same method. It's called rewarding loyal customers!
Character is what a man is in the dark
ruinedimage, as far as I remember the case with the FFXIV thing was that the community from the beta complained but the devs didn't listen so as long as the developers listen a beta test is productive. Still they are not calling this beta test but beta weekends. It is not even "Beta Test Weekend" it is just a preview of the game and I really doubt it will be under any NDA. As I said - the beta testing is going on even as we speak and it is completely different instance of beta than the ones that will be launched at the weekends that is really meant to test the load on the servers and to bring some more hype to the game. You previously said that you have problem with the way the beta weekend participants are selected but you seem to forget that these are not the main testers of the game.
Congrats thats now the third thread you have mentioned this in.
You have cash to burn, we get it.
Enlighten me, what exactly IS a "loyal customer"? Define "loyalty" for me.
ruinedmirage, buying stuff for a game that is not even out yet pretty much proves your loyalty. It is much like preordering, you know
I already admitted that I have an old-fashioned way of looking at beta testing. Though, I never realized that the phrases "I'm in beta" and "I'm beta testing" would have completely opposite meanings; the first meaning that you're only there to play and not report bugs, but have fun, and the second applying to actual testers.
I can accept the fact that my way of thinking about testing these days is simply wrong. This isn't the golden era anymore, when companies sought and listened to outside opinions. I'll end my argument then...
Except about that loyalty thing. It proves you have more money to spend than some other people. Can you honestly prove to me that you love D&D more than I do because you spent your money on this? Would you care to guess how much money I've spent over the decades on D&D books and merchandise?
I've already reposted my math too many times to repost again, so let me summarize: IT IS NOT WORTH $120 LET ALONE $200 OR THE "VALUE" OF $549. Even a moderator has looked into it and is now confused by their logic.
No it does not, the value of those item including all the beta ticket and early access is not worth $200.
Im looking on FBook now and the new image they posted every single comment is saying how disgusted they are with cost.
As much as i appreciate and repect your point of view you are in the minority and therefore your point just to me is not credible.
Yes sorry, just excited things are now moving along
[/SIGPIC]
The Older Gamers (25+) - Never too old to play games
To cut it short it boils down to value for you money since as it stands there is no way near the value they claimed it to be. And why ommit the lowest founders pack but then allow TL2 pre-orders access? At least the lowest founder's pack (the $30 one) gives to Cryptic but then those that no way give into Cryptic besides it's mother company access to the CB weekends. But this is once a gain a big ol' slap in the face to their fans and followers while rewarding only those that are paying them.
And before you play the whole "Oh but wait... there will be other opportunities" know that first Cryptic should have held these before this announcement and secondly they sang this tune since the first Beta key sell outs with TL2 pre-orders.
And it just so happens that the founders pack gets announced with the beta schedule, that right there is just a sales pitch to sell beta keys which requires a minimum of $60.
Actually, that currency doesn't make up the $400 difference. it's about 180 questionite/dilithium to each zen. We'll say 200 just to give benefit of the doubt. Which is worth $37.50 for the amount given for the highest tier.
They have added more items to the list, which honestly speaking, can't have a value placed on them (since individual items aren't sold for Zen in those stores, nor would the effects be easily equivocal).
I don't mind "eye of the beholder"; but before the list was added to, the difference looked suspiciously like $400. THAT requires a suspension of disbelief which, frankly speaking, the most rabid fanboi should ask about.
Oh, I am not a D&D fan but I am MMO fan in general. So does it matter how much money I spend in GW2 or RIft or any other MMO to my participation in the beta of Neverwinter. No, it does not. And neither do your expenses on D&D merchandise.
To the rest of you - how do you know the exact exchange rate from ZEN to Astral Diamond? Because the logic behind you claiming that the packages are not worth it are seemed to be based on something about the cash shop in another game that does not have much to do with the cash shop in this one.