Unless I'm mistaken, watching and controlling something onscreen generally implies playing it, and you would be neglecting your job rather than the game.
Unless I'm mistaken, watching and controlling something onscreen generally implies playing it, and you would be neglecting your job rather than the game.
Did you listen to the video on the China site? The Cryptic guy on there talks quite a bit about how they addressed some past exploits. I found it fascinating.
Good. However best loot should be only take from Cryptic made content. Enough said.
There shouldn't be any reason that player made missions can't have the hardest raid encounters and the best loot in the game, assuming that they have raid-level difficulty encounters in them.
Strongly disagree! Sorry don't trust players can judge that and best loot should only be got from Cryptic. I don't mean that Foundry loot would be like HAMSTER though.
Well this post made some sense to me though I still do not agree with everything. Yeah I absolutely agree that rewards from Dungeons should be given depending on what you actually do.
It would make me no sense if there would be an adventure and you do once click mission and it gives same reward as winning a Dragon in a 2 hour Dungeon run with defeating lots of mobs before meeting the nasty endboss.
The big question is though where we disagree is that should FOUNDRY content give the best loot avaible in the game? I say no because it can easily be abused. The best loot should be given from some Cryptic only made very hard Dungeons or Raids since then Cryptic can make sure that the challenge is very hard i.e challenge is in par with the loot.
With my logic you could ask what motivation is there for a max level character to do FOUNDRY content then? Answer is really none except if there are interesting adventures tailored for max level. This would work if you take my approach play 40 hours /week and you max your character in 3 months. I plan to have many characters so I would not be done with Foundry.
One possible solution would be that big rewards are tied to defeating dangerous monsters. For example a Foundry mission with a big red Dragon to kill would generate lots of currency that can be used to bought items. The problem with that system is that then there would be lots of hey lets hunt this monster type.... but on the other hand I don't see any easy or perfect solution to the loot debate.
Strongly disagree! Suddenly Foundry content is second rate. Better Cryptic come sup with elegant sploit solutions, as they did in the video.
So the only reason to play is to get the best stuff and finish the game? Someone redefine RPG for me again...
Also, almost every game I've played has been won with mostly average gear at mid-level (when faced with a level system). I don't think you're going to be required to have the ultimate weapons and armor to beat the game, just my opinion. Even if the Foundry hypothetically gave out NO loot, some of the content might still be worth playing just for the fun of it.
Like he said in the video - detracting from user authored content detracts from it's validity and viability. Anywhere you nerf user content will make it less desirable, that's human nature. Cryptic have said that they are using the same loot tables and algorithms for user content, exactly for this reason.
Counter question - given a good, mature system with sophisticated and well-thought out subsystems, a system designed with user-made content from the conceptual stage. Given such a system, why shouldn't user-generated content get everything Cryptic authored content gets?
Like he said in the video - detracting from user authored content detracts from it's validity and viability. Anywhere you nerf user content will make it less desirable, that's human nature. Cryptic have said that they are using the same loot tables and algorithms for user content, exactly for this reason.
Counter question - given a good, mature system with sophisticated and well-thought out subsystems, a system designed with user-made content from the conceptual stage. Given such a system, why shouldn't user-generated content get everything Cryptic authored content gets?
The only reason I can think of that they don't share the loot system is so that Foundry quests will differ from one another. Human nature, right? If people find out how to place the best stuff in the game, they will think of the quickest and easiest way to get to it (which may or may not be so quick and easy, but still....) and every dungeon/adventure will look exactly the same; efficiency first. The purpose for the Foundry (creating unique missions/quests/adventures) is completely reduced to a free loot run instead of story.
The only reason I can think of that they don't share the loot system is so that Foundry quests will differ from one another. Human nature, right? If people find out how to place the best stuff in the game, they will think of the quickest and easiest way to get to it (which may or may not be so quick and easy, but still....) and every dungeon/adventure will look exactly the same; efficiency first. The purpose for the Foundry (creating unique missions/quests/adventures) is completely reduced to a free loot run instead of story.
But we already know that the loot dropped in the foundry will be based on random tables and average playtimes, so you cannot place loot. The point however is that at end game, the various end game currencies are not dropped from doing individual missions, but only offered through dailies. By doing this you disincentivize the use of the foundry in its pure form, instead you invite people to find the easiest path to completion rather than actually explore the foundry content.
This is what I mean by a system designed from the ground up with user content as a fundamental part of the core game. Done properly there should be no risk whatsoever of official and user-made content using exactly the same drop tables.
If you place 5 chests in every room in your adventure or one at the very end the result should, in the end, be exactly the same.
iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited November 2012
Well, playing devil's advocate, while users creating content will only get one reward chest at the end, developers who make content can literally code more chests and containers in their quests that we can't. That is how I see if differing and I hope we get the same option of chests and containers that Cryptic quests give out!
I thought the concern was about UGC having equal rights to Cryptic's BEST loot and gear in the game (post 97/99). I must've taken everything out of context. My bad.
Exclusive stuff not only helps the feeling of accomplishment and defining a character, but also could help the economy if put into market circulation at a high price and maintain that. Otherwise, need a +5 Vorpal Sword of Instadeath? Talk to any one of these guys for the daily.
I thought the concern was about UGC having equal rights to Cryptic's BEST loot and gear in the game (post 97/99). I must've taken everything out of context. My bad.
Exclusive stuff not only helps the feeling of accomplishment and defining a character, but also could help the economy if put into market circulation at a high price and maintain that. Otherwise, need a +5 Vorpal Sword of Instadeath? Talk to any one of these guys for the daily.
The discussion has taken many different directions. The main thrust of the matter though is that at end game Cryptic has a tendency to make the "best" loot not drops, but purchaseable though different forms of currencies earned by doing dailies. Dailies when combined with the foundry mean that people will always look for the quickest way to finish it. Which is why STO is taking out the 1 second clickables from the options for daily missions. What I propose is a better option is just granting X number of end game currency drops from individual Foundry missions. It doesn't have to be a lot, but since foundry missions scale it should be something. This alleviates the fact that at end game STO is a grind-fest of the same missions over and over again. Let me earn all 8K worth of dilithium, or whatever other currency I need by doing foundry missions individual and don't herd me towards certain content if I don't want it.
Well, playing devil's advocate, while users creating content will only get one reward chest at the end, developers who make content can literally code more chests and containers in their quests that we can't. That is how I see if differing and I hope we get the same option of chests and containers that Cryptic quests give out!
I imagine that Cryptic will develop the DM Level System with the idea of limiting abuse.
While there may be some rough limitations when players first start developing content such as limited reward chests those limitations may be lessened as players gain higher DM Levels.
As for having different loot tables, no thanks. Separate but equal doesn't work no matter what situation you're in.
There will always be some people who favor one over the other so it's far simpler to simply keep them the exact same.
Also it's important to remember that any incentive is, by nature, a punishment for not following the incentive. Even if UGC had the exact same loot table with additional rewards we would, by default, be punished for playing Cryptic's Content. I really think the best possible outcome is for Cryptic to keep with their original plan of giving the same rewards for UGC content as their content. If we can't tell the difference then we would avoid any claims of player favoritism.
The last thing I want to hear when I play with people is that they refuse to play content because it is or isn't Cryptic's Content.
I certainly agree that player made or cryptic made should be able to have identical rewards.
We have the foundry for dungeon making, will there be some way to make quests with rewards to? I think that would add a lot, though making the dungeon itself could be seen as a quest ? It also is not a lot of currencies that make grind , it is if they are introduced in a repetitive way that you would not normal do, ie a daily quest that once you got said reward you will stop doing, that is what is bad. However it is set up it should be something that you would continue to do even after getting the reward. In NWO i would say that would be doing dungeons and delves and story quests.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] I am not evil, I am just cursed.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
We have the foundry for dungeon making, will there be some way to make quests with rewards to?
As near as we can tell all UGC will be a "quest" no matter if is designed to have a storyline or not.
I think the option to just design "raiding" dungeons would be awesome but it's something they likely won't have at launch.
In any case all UGC will be given quest completion XP and a random reward at the end based on the length of the quest as well as several other variables so no need to worry.
Because it can be abused. It is not only that. Best items only from Cryptic generated content though UGC does not need to generate bad loot compared to max loot that you can get from Cryptic generated loot.
Because this game should have endgame thought not endless WOW lootmill, but still not max items when you are max level immediately.
. The big question is though where we disagree is that should FOUNDRY content give the best loot avaible in the game? I say no because it can easily be abused. The best loot should be given from some Cryptic only made very hard Dungeons or Raids since then Cryptic can make sure that the challenge is very hard i.e challenge is in par with the loot.
With my logic you could ask what motivation is there for a max level character to do FOUNDRY content then? Answer is really none except if there are interesting adventures tailored for max level. This would work if you take my approach play 40 hours /week and you max your character in 3 months. I plan to have many characters so I would not be done with Foundry.
One possible solution would be that big rewards are tied to defeating dangerous monsters. For example a Foundry mission with a big red Dragon to kill would generate lots of currency that can be used to bought items. The problem with that system is that then there would be lots of hey lets hunt this monster type.... but on the other hand I don't see any easy or perfect solution to the loot debate.
This is not NeverwinterNights 3. No instead it is Neverwinter MMO and developers talk about endgame! Other endgame then powerful loot and Cryptic Raids or high end Dungeons? Well I hope for PvP Capture the Flag that is a wish of mine.
Comments
Whatever, might as well hook up an old pc to treadmill free loot for my main.
However you get your kicks....
Personally, I think I'm going to actually have fun PLAYING it, like with my hands and thinking and stuff.
Strongly disagree! Sorry don't trust players can judge that and best loot should only be got from Cryptic. I don't mean that Foundry loot would be like HAMSTER though.
So the only reason to play is to get the best stuff and finish the game? Someone redefine RPG for me again...
Also, almost every game I've played has been won with mostly average gear at mid-level (when faced with a level system). I don't think you're going to be required to have the ultimate weapons and armor to beat the game, just my opinion. Even if the Foundry hypothetically gave out NO loot, some of the content might still be worth playing just for the fun of it.
Counter question - given a good, mature system with sophisticated and well-thought out subsystems, a system designed with user-made content from the conceptual stage. Given such a system, why shouldn't user-generated content get everything Cryptic authored content gets?
The only reason I can think of that they don't share the loot system is so that Foundry quests will differ from one another. Human nature, right? If people find out how to place the best stuff in the game, they will think of the quickest and easiest way to get to it (which may or may not be so quick and easy, but still....) and every dungeon/adventure will look exactly the same; efficiency first. The purpose for the Foundry (creating unique missions/quests/adventures) is completely reduced to a free loot run instead of story.
But we already know that the loot dropped in the foundry will be based on random tables and average playtimes, so you cannot place loot. The point however is that at end game, the various end game currencies are not dropped from doing individual missions, but only offered through dailies. By doing this you disincentivize the use of the foundry in its pure form, instead you invite people to find the easiest path to completion rather than actually explore the foundry content.
This is what I mean by a system designed from the ground up with user content as a fundamental part of the core game. Done properly there should be no risk whatsoever of official and user-made content using exactly the same drop tables.
If you place 5 chests in every room in your adventure or one at the very end the result should, in the end, be exactly the same.
Exclusive stuff not only helps the feeling of accomplishment and defining a character, but also could help the economy if put into market circulation at a high price and maintain that. Otherwise, need a +5 Vorpal Sword of Instadeath? Talk to any one of these guys for the daily.
The discussion has taken many different directions. The main thrust of the matter though is that at end game Cryptic has a tendency to make the "best" loot not drops, but purchaseable though different forms of currencies earned by doing dailies. Dailies when combined with the foundry mean that people will always look for the quickest way to finish it. Which is why STO is taking out the 1 second clickables from the options for daily missions. What I propose is a better option is just granting X number of end game currency drops from individual Foundry missions. It doesn't have to be a lot, but since foundry missions scale it should be something. This alleviates the fact that at end game STO is a grind-fest of the same missions over and over again. Let me earn all 8K worth of dilithium, or whatever other currency I need by doing foundry missions individual and don't herd me towards certain content if I don't want it.
Will the devs allow us to gain the best loot through the Foundry? I thought this was already expected.
I wonder if the beancounters are taking over??
I imagine that Cryptic will develop the DM Level System with the idea of limiting abuse.
While there may be some rough limitations when players first start developing content such as limited reward chests those limitations may be lessened as players gain higher DM Levels.
As for having different loot tables, no thanks. Separate but equal doesn't work no matter what situation you're in.
There will always be some people who favor one over the other so it's far simpler to simply keep them the exact same.
Also it's important to remember that any incentive is, by nature, a punishment for not following the incentive. Even if UGC had the exact same loot table with additional rewards we would, by default, be punished for playing Cryptic's Content. I really think the best possible outcome is for Cryptic to keep with their original plan of giving the same rewards for UGC content as their content. If we can't tell the difference then we would avoid any claims of player favoritism.
The last thing I want to hear when I play with people is that they refuse to play content because it is or isn't Cryptic's Content.
We have the foundry for dungeon making, will there be some way to make quests with rewards to? I think that would add a lot, though making the dungeon itself could be seen as a quest ? It also is not a lot of currencies that make grind , it is if they are introduced in a repetitive way that you would not normal do, ie a daily quest that once you got said reward you will stop doing, that is what is bad. However it is set up it should be something that you would continue to do even after getting the reward. In NWO i would say that would be doing dungeons and delves and story quests.
As near as we can tell all UGC will be a "quest" no matter if is designed to have a storyline or not.
I think the option to just design "raiding" dungeons would be awesome but it's something they likely won't have at launch.
In any case all UGC will be given quest completion XP and a random reward at the end based on the length of the quest as well as several other variables so no need to worry.
Because this game should have endgame thought not endless WOW lootmill, but still not max items when you are max level immediately.
This is not NeverwinterNights 3. No instead it is Neverwinter MMO and developers talk about endgame! Other endgame then powerful loot and Cryptic Raids or high end Dungeons? Well I hope for PvP Capture the Flag that is a wish of mine.