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Our little Discussion of the Gods
zebular
Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 15,270 Community Moderator
Note: This thread was once a part of another thread but our discussion threw the original topic way off, so I moved them all into this new thread.
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Is that an important or fundamental piece of the realm's history ? Can you tell us more about your reasons to choose Selune for your campaign ?
Mny a time people ask for the reason regarding dragons in the realms. Why are dragons not like the ones in eberron? In Eberron, dragons are wise and can take the form of humans unlike FR (I hate Eberron so I don't know much about it, but that is what I am usually told).
That is when I quote this story to tell them why dragons are more powerful in FR and different in the sense that they are just vile beasts and don't use much intelligence and spells in fight but only pure might - why are they generally stronger and relish the flesh of humans. Ever since the presence of red comet, dragons have been like that - beings of pure evil and destruction.
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There is almost something important in every book I quoted and you can slowly get the preview of a whole world. However, only read the 4e books and not 3e or 2e when reading rules etc or you will get confused.
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Regarding Selune, Link Selune and Shar were the beings that existed before Lord Ao started creation of world. So they are pure deities. Shar representing nothingness, Selune representing light. All other deities were formed from thee two deities consent(at first) and conflict (later).
They fight because Selune went against the laws of nature and brought light to the world of Toril to save chaunthea (and thus all the life in the world). This angered Shar and they fought.
Selune was able to survive the fight barely but she was not only able to bring light to this world (and thus save all life) but also create Mystryl who was her strongest ally. Thus she was able to survive at brink of her destruction.
I could go on all days, weeks or years on her - but in short, she is plain awesome.
EDIT: May as well write some more...
So Selune is the Moon on the Toril skies.She wanes and waxes even since the incident when she brought fire to sun to save chaunthea and fought shar because her power had decreased. So her nature is chaotic and she prefers freedom. So she is also less discriminating of other races - any one of any race or class is welcome as long as they come for light and fight the darkness. She is one of the most forgiving gods in the realms though that has changed after her two most closest allies Eilistraee and Mystra died. Her power has increased however and she is almost as strong as before. Shar has retained all her ancient power and her influence over domain of darkness is also increasing. Death of Tyr, Mystra, Helm etc. has all helped Shar.
Selune also helps the sailors and lost travellors by guiding them in the night skies - the navigation by stars etc. Thus she is a savior of ships too.
Apart from that it is now known that Sehanine Moonbow was an aspect of Selune (Sehanine Moonbow is a powerful elven diety - and one who opposed Lolth).
Thus you see, Selune is connected with every part of realm one way or the other. She is the first and greatest enemy of teo most powerful evil goddesses - Shar and Lolth. Apart from the fact she is Moon which reaches everywhere in Toril - thus whole of the Toril is her domain and she in not restricted by location and geography. She is an ancient goddess who predates creation of universe, hence she does not need worshippers to survive - in fact all life in this world is the result of her sacrifices and her going against what should have been order of the nature.
Isn't she worthy of praise? Selune be praised!
In the Realms, dragons evolved from an ancient line of dragons known as the Eodraco.
Just so it isn't misunderstood and I know you didn't mean it to sound like it, but Ao existed before Selune and Shar and were born from the void he created within the Crystal Sphere. Also, from the novels it became clear that Ao himself serves another entity we only know as "Master." Shar represnts darkness rather than nothingness. Shar would protest that she is nothing, for she is the darkness, the devourer of light. Her very being would be a contradiction to being nothing.
Amaunator was the first deity Selune created and then Shar created Talos in an outrage at the action. (I love how Amaunator has returned to the Realms, he was one of my favorites from the Arcane Age.) But not all beings were born from Selune or Shar, some have come from other dimensions or other Crystal Spheres (Tyr for example) or born of other gods or rose from mortality. To become a God, one must be endowed with godly power by Ao himself, which Selune and Shar would have nothing to do with, save for perhaps a relation to their once-mortal form having derived from the world and life they created. On that notion, it is just as easy to say all beings came from Ao instead, as Selune and Shar were born from his void that he created.
("He" is a relative term, we really don't know if Ao has any sense of gender but since Lord Ao has been officially referred to as "he" and "Lord," I find myself continuing to use that adjective for him.)
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There are (probably)many Overlord who travel around creating universes. Before Lord Ao took interest in this universe, it was void.
No one knows if this void was left there from beginning, or if some previous overlord had reduced a universe to nothingness after creating it.
Once Lord Ao created the universe, even before he created anything, two manifestations resulted.
Shar - a manifestation of that void which wanted to remain in nothingness. Thus a manifestation of nothingness who tends towards detruction of created world to bring it to nothingness.
Other manifestation was that of light - to being everlasting light and life to the world - the opposite of nothing.
So it is a tug of war with manifestation of light - Selune trying to pull the world towards utopia and manifestation of that nothingness - Shar trying to pull the world towards the void.
In order to achieve their goals of what they represent, each takes portfolios which would be the means to their ends. Selune by nurturing life and spreading light and goodness in world. Shar by using destruction to bring back the world to the void.
Thus Shar is a representation of/manifestation of nothingness or void(which is her symbol) while Selune is the manifestation of /representation of the image of a perfect world - a Utopia or a world of everlasting light which is dynamic with life.
So Nothingness is her ends and she will take any means to reach there which is destruction and subverted war. Her finding dark peaceful is just because she is the manifestation of that void and she finds relief in what she thinks would be the ideal world - a world of void.
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Regarding the creation of world, Ever since her fight with Shar - Selune had no hand in creation. The push had already been given. Her role now is to nurture and guide the life. She has allies doing her work for her and she is to protect, nurture and guide them for her utopia to be achieved. (Also she is weaker than Shar so her full power is spent fighting the evil scheems).
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Regarding their being sanctioned by Ao - that is true for deities but Shar and Selune are more of a natural force. Interfering in their work would mean interfering with creation which Ao won't do. However, if they do something outrageous to Ao, he may make them weaker somehow - or make people forget them - but as natural forces, if Ao destroys them completely (e.g. Shar) then realms will change completely - even more than spellplague. Either Utopia will be reached automatically or Nothingness (depending on who died)
Just because Shar has a self-destructive wish to return all of Creation and Light back into the void of nothingness, this does not mean she is nothing. Her symbol is a disc of darkness surrounded by a purple border, not a void of nothingness. Her portfolio has nothing to do with "nothingness."
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She is not nothingness, she is the manifestation of nothingness. It is a natural will of the world, a force created, to bring it back to its previous position.
Similarly, Selune is the manifestation of Utopia but not Utopia itself. She is the opposing force that brings the world to utopia.
However, being the "will" to bring the universe to a state which they think is perfect, using their ancient power - they can access that world. Like shar was able to create Shadowworld and Selune was able to access the plane of light and bring light to the world to aid chaunthea.
The only things I can find that out-right state Sehanine Moonbow is indeed his consort now, are wikis. :-|
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Here the elven god was also more into mystery and fighting undead than attacking the darkness.
Also, if she(Sehanine) is a consort of Corellon or not also not sure - Sehanine being shrouded in mystery and all. That is up to elves belief and what their literature has. Also apart from that, she is not the only consort but whether the three of them together combine somehow to make his consort is also not very clear.
Being in mystery suits Selune very well as her power waxes and wanes so she can't reveal all to others to protect herself.
I guess it up to personal interpretation. But I am going to interpret it as Sehanine being seperate being with separate will from Selune - like an avatar but just a bigger and equal version.
Later I believe it will be made clear that her being consort was only a belief - or that there was some ritual involved. Or that she was one of the three consort of Corello. The way elves see things are very different from the way humans interpret things.
It's also unclear if Corellon was born of the Realm's Sphere or not too. On Hallowed Ground doesn't specify which elven gods were born of the ground and states that some were around prior to the creation of the Elves. Even then, it doesn't say what ground they were born from, could have been another world or plane of existence entirely.
I cannot wait for this unification D&D Next is promised to bring.
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Though I hope she remains greater god even after loosing her power (unlike before).
Who knows, with the rebirth of Mystra, she could reinstate or reshape the Laws of Magic which the Gods are bound to. For we know the reason for the power shift in 4e is because of the magic Mystra was withholding from many of the gods was released back to them. If she does, this could mean yet another shift in power among the gods. Personally, I hope the deities remain as they are now, I am tired of the Gods being changed up every few years. If I were to have any say so, I would have Mystra become the feminine counter-part to Lord Ao, take a back-seat and be untouchable like him, while overseeing the Laws of Magic and Time once again. I think Ao is just a jealous god or the "Master" he serves is, one of the two, or both...
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Ao is not the only force in the FR sphere that creates deities, but is the only force (short of the "Master" we've never seen,) that may approve who may be a deity (and what their final rank of deity power is sometimes.) If Ao denies a FR mortal trying to become a god or a god raising its power rank/killing another god for power, that won't happen in FR or Ao will instantly restore what was changed (as both had been witnessed.) If a god tried to enter that sphere with their own influence and is denied, they are blocked from doing so. Technically, it's not 100% clear though if a "visiting deity" were denied if they could visit as a non-power (and run the risks like the time of troubles/spellplague,) or blocked outright from even visiting. If anybody has literary proof of this its reference would be appreciated.
I still wrack by brain on Corellon the D&D vs the FR god at times. For my own simplicity I treat it as the he vs Grummish creation story is how the races were born and likely did get "permitted" into the Realms, but who can say with all the retcon?
Also, there is this new concept of the god who created humans in his shape - the god of asmodeus. If he revives, he was the most powerful god of all the gods in god-demon war - so much so that Asmodeus fears him even after his death.
Mystra's can be powerful, but Ao can always stop her. What Ao really fears imo, is that "he will have to step in" to stop her. Basically this will mean him violating his tradition of non-interference without valid cause. Or that Mystra will have power to destroy whole creation and Ao will have to start all over again.
I don't really think she could be a threat to Ao, but a powerful god to destroy the realms with him/herself (but not Ao) would still be a big threat to Ao.
EDIT: Not to forget the "Raven Queen" in 4e was forced to give up her authority over dead souls. Lest she became too powerful for everyone.
So Shar is an aspect of void. Next is searching which book has it ... so many ... b:surrender
EDIT: Also I would like that "Selune is the light of creation" be changed to somewhat fancy - like everlasting light of creation?
"Selune be praised!" :P
Yeah, this is why he made her take Chosens, to keep her power in check. This is also why when a Chosen dies, her essence can take hundred and thousands of years to return to her. Making sure she couldn't just kill all her chosens and become a threat.
This sentence is NOT canon, just my own answer for my campaign: Agreed on Lady of Pain. In my campaign, she was the only non-Ao power that rivaled Mystryl. I love Lady of Pain almost as much as I do Mystryl. :-P
We need a hash-tag for this... #BringOnDnDNext
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Regarding chosen, when I heard Qilue died, it broke my heart. She was kind of cool (and she had that great habit of dancing naked near fires
I really hope I could go back in time and undo that - maybe revived mystra will let me do it? (nudge nudge wink wink)
I loved all the Seven Sisters, I'm just glad 4 remain yet. Still wish we knew if Alustriel was dead for sure or not though, I don't like not knowing about my favorite Chosens. The Simbul remains my favorite though, ever since she first appeared in one of The Wizards Three articles, secretly as a spoon or fork was it? Hillarious!
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In my campaign for foundry, Maeve is supposed to loose her sanity and the story of Qilue brings her back to her senses. Back when I started on it, I didn't realize she was dead.
Yeah Simbul might help revivng mystra, but I haven't brushed up on the fate of chosen after spellplague (except for Qilue)
What happened to dove?
Years later I STILL get confused who is what. I was recently talking about gods in multiple spheres and thought I missed Tiamat or Tia (hehe) here becoming only an Exarch since there were so many changes. Turns out she's still a god (of greed in her portfolio currently which fits her just fine.)
Dove and Laeral are unclear too but unlike Alustriel, there is just no mention of them. In my 4e FR Player's Guide, Alustriel was just mentioned as having been survived by her son, so that leads me to believe that Alustriel died.
"High Lady Alustriel's line carries on in the form of her son, Methrammar Aerasume', who is High Lord of Luruar and dwells in Silverymoon."
Storm and The Simbul are the only two that are positively alive, Sylune and Qilue are recorded as dead. Sylune sacrificed herself, dying a second time - well she was already dead but had been bound to Shadowdale as a ghost for many years prior.
Khelben sacrificed himself in 1374 DR when him, Laeral and Elminster conducted a high magic ritual to clense the High Moor and the Library City of Miyeritar.
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@zeb - thats good to hear. Unconfirmed still feels better than her dying. so 2 dead, 2 alive, 1 probably dead - 2 unknown (so should be alive I hope).
Well, what could happen also is that the unknown ones could have become Exarchs and are just hiding out, adjusting (hopes), for the 4e Campaign Guide specifically states that all present Chosens of the gods were elevated to Exarch status. So that means The Simbul, Storm and Elminster are Exarchs now as well. However, they aren't listed in the Gods listing under Exarchs. It does state however that Chosens can still be created by gods but that, at present (1479 DR), no gods have made any new Chosens yet.
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Any updates on prospective dates on such an endeavor?
EDIT: for a place to discuss lore
Ah, that could be a neat idea. I could probably get on that after I finish my Grimoire since the two do relate and most of my notes are converting from 2nd & 3rd to 4th, and in the end it's all fact-checked to make sure it is 4th canon.
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My interpretation of The Sundering described at that GenCon is that they're doing just that. I think the brand people may have realized that you can't kick over the sandcastle without going back and building something back in its place.
That is awesome! I really hope so. :-)
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Thanks for reminding me of that! I forgot where I had remembered the specific about my earlier statements saying that Ao had not yet separated Abeir from Toril and that they did indeed collide.
In light of this and to make sure all that lore stays well in my mind this time, I wrote a transcript and included it in my Grimoire of Time!
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