I never understood why death penalties are a good idea.
When you die you have to get back where you were, and sometimes, depending on the quest you're doing, you also lose progress and have to start all over again. If you happen to die inside a dungeon, in a bossfight, the team loses a member and often that results in a wipe, and you all have to go back and start the boss all over again.
That's a penalty in itself - why on earth would you put another penalty on top of it? At worst, a 30 second debuff that discurages any potential abuse is all that's needed. This is not Dark Souls, and even Dark Souls is relatively tame when it comes to death penalties compaired to it's predecessor...
I agree on this sentiment. The only time I feel any sort of death-penalty should be applied is if one resurrected themselves in the same location that they perished. If they were to get whisked away to some "bind" point or a Temple, then I do not feel there should be any penalty. Like-wise, if another player cast a spell, like resurrection (Warpriest or Templar), or used an item to bring back a comrade, there should be no death penalty beyond what the spell dictates.
I agree on this sentiment. The only time I feel any sort of death-penalty should be applied is if one resurrected themselves in the same location that they perished. If they were to get whisked away to some "bind" point or a Temple, then I do not feel there should be any penalty. Like-wise, if another player cast a spell, like resurrection (Warpriest or Templar), or used an item to bring back a comrade, there should be no death penalty beyond what the spell dictates.
That could be easily fixed by simply not littering the world with resurection spots - one at the center of each map and one at the start of each dungeon should suffice. That should solve what's been happening for example in RaiderZ, ie dying to a group of skeletons and ressurecting 5 meters away from where you died, often getting picked off again by the same skeletons, because someone thought it clever to put a ressurection stone right amongst the mobs XD
What about resurrections by cleric? They have to be on same spot and in combat.
Best way is to have it Raiderz way. A 1 min death penelty reducing your total hp by 90% and if you get killed before "rest" next death penelty will be 5 min. People will wait after death for some time when they see their hp as 200 instead of 2000.
And if you are running back all the way from resurrection spot, it will wear off by the time you reach the location.
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vindiconMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
What about resurrections by cleric? They have to be on same spot and in combat.
Ressurections by clerics are fine. They sit on long cooldowns, are a hassle to pull off (long cast times, often they need to somehow get out of combat to even cast it, while still being 2 breaths away from the boss) and ressurections rarely restore more than a hair of health, so the resuurected person must first heal the f up or die again th next time the boss as much as sneezes at their general direction.
only death penalty i have never liked is exp loss or exp gain reduction, its counter productive imo. you generally die because you are not strong enough for a given area, making a player further away from it just dosnt make much sense. so i hope to see no exp loss or anything related to exp.
only death penalty i have never liked is exp loss or exp gain reduction, its counter productive imo. ...
They are excellent and might be the only way to level down. I hope there are ways to reduce your level for certain adventures. Killing rats at paragon level wouldn't feel "paragon".
My vote is ten minutes in the penalty box for instigating and another player can pick up where he left off and gain exp and loot from the quest until he can return to the ice....err...
wait...
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vindiconMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
They are excellent and might be the only way to level down. I hope there are ways to reduce your level for certain adventures. Killing rats at paragon level wouldn't feel "paragon".
Why have ways to level yourself down instead of ways to level up the encounters?
Or get yourself on very basic low level gear - that should do the trick as well. See how those rats feel when you charge them bare-fisted and in a loincloth
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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muzrub333Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited September 2012
So how many will try a "hardcore" mode, and just delete your character when you die? Depending on the leveling curve, I might do it once. Just seems right with a Dungeons & Dragons game.
So how many will try a "hardcore" mode, and just delete your character when you die? Depending on the leveling curve, I might do it once. Just seems right with a Dungeons & Dragons game.
I am quite sure many perma-death guilds will come in this game. I am quite sure DDO's perma-death guild will try it out too.
If perma-death can stay in DDO, NW will be a safe piece of cake compared to that.
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klangeddinMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 882Arc User
edited September 2012
I've seen threads like this one before a MMO rpg is released almost a hundred times (overall).
Usually, in forums, the general consensus is that death penalties are too easy in modern MMORPGS and that, in upcoming mmorpg n? 877, something should be done to bring back more punishing death penalties, since they apparently are required to "forge" player skill while he levels or "preventing stupid, suicidal behaviour" as its some kind of ground-breaking problem that could cripple the game forever.
Then mmorpg n?877 comes out, the death penalty is pretty much as easy as all the modern mmorpgs (case of devs loling at forum "feedback", classic), and the community in the forums apparently doesn't give a rat about the subject anymore, so /shrug.
I've yet to read "This game failed because the death penalty is too soft! If the game had a harsher death penalty, I'm sure that the hundreds of thousands that left would never have in the first place! Please bring back level loss to save this game!"
*rollseyes*
Anyway, in the specific case of NWO, it's only natural that there will be some kind of death penalty, it's also an excuse to sell items that cancel (or prevent, like self resurrection scroll) said penalty with zens. I can't see it being anything more than loss of time, loss of gold, temporary debuff and small exp debt (not exp loss).
Perma death will depend on the combat. If you can make a mistake easily then die (what I personally like) then perma death won't be the way to go. If it is like every other mmo then it is alot more feasible.
Perma death will depend on the combat. If you can make a mistake easily then die (what I personally like) then perma death won't be the way to go. If it is like every other mmo then it is alot more feasible.
That is the fun part actually. I tried twice but could never go past lvl 18 on DDO (That damn undead beholder in rever's refuge). That makes the game actually interesting - the element of fear of losing your character.
But of-course it should be optional. Its not everybody's cup of tea.
The people in support of a penalty need to be careful not only about what they want, but also why. There was a similar debate with another Cryptic title a couple of years back, where one of the developers said outright that he wasn't sure why a penalty would make sense. Nonetheless, Cryptic implemented one to give the people what they said they wanted, and it turned out to be a crappy compromise for everyone.
If you want a penalty, you'll need to talk it through, in detail. How and why does the penalty you prefer prevent the behavior you perceive as undesirable, why is the behavior in question undesirable, and why will no other non-penalty solution work? Connect the dots - because if you don't, I guarantee Cryptic won't "get it" and you'll get saddled with a half-baked "penalty" that won't do what you wanted it to do. That other game still has people calling for a death penalty, apparently not realizing that a "penalty" already exists...
==========
While I'm here, I'm gonna put my cards on the table. As klangeddin pointed out, there are two commonly stated reasons for a penalty, and I'd like to point out why I think the reasons are either not relevant, or why they miss their target.
First, "people need a penalty to learn to play;" i.e., the "stick" component of the "carrot and stick" school of teaching. The problem here is simple: The only thing punishment teaches well is avoidance - and it doesn't even teach that unless the cause/effect relationship is immediately and obviously clear. Burnt your hand on a hot stove? You'll avoid stoves because they might be hot. Got an F on your history exam? Well, study harder, I guess - but that doesn't teach you how to study so that you do better on the next exam, does it?
If you "fail" at a game, it's not necessarily obvious why you failed; therefore punishment, by itself, won't help you step up your game.
Second, "people need a disincentive for zerging (or other self-defeating behavior)." If the behavior is truly head-against-a-brick-wall pointless, players who want to learn will figure it out; players who don't, won't. The existence or absence of a penalty won't change that; it'll just frustrate the first type of player, and give the second type of player a reason to call everyone else "bad."
On the other hand, if zerging actually works, that's a problem either with the encounter design, or with the game not matching your personal preference or expectation. Adding a penalty in either case is just treating the symptom without addressing the problem.
The people in support of a penalty need to be careful
...
We know what we are talking about because this topic has been picked up time and again for two years. We have already debated in and outs of death penalties and know that there is no point in discussing it till devs actually tell us about it.
However we have brainstormed a lot on it and few ideas have been proposed by some people. So if you have an idea which can add to that massive discussion or a new idea which stands out being true to lore - kindly share it in hope devs may see it and it might help them making a true dnd or a better game.
vindiconMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited September 2012
Permadeath is non feasible on NW as it's designed to be at the moment. The simple reason is that they want the game to run on one single server. Permadeath cannot be enforced on all people and cannot coexist on the same server as non-permadeath characters, for equally obvious reasons. It needs a separate server, which the devs over at Cryptic do not wanna happen. So, permadeath is not happening anytime soon.
Permadeath is non feasible on NW as it's designed to be at the moment. The simple reason is that they want the game to run on one single server. Permadeath cannot be enforced on all people and cannot coexist on the same server as non-permadeath characters, for equally obvious reasons. It needs a separate server, which the devs over at Cryptic do not wanna happen. So, permadeath is not happening anytime soon.
Same as DDO's any server. Nothing new here.
All you need for PermaD is a guild-wide message when anyone dies. A global message eliminates you having to join the guild at level 1.
And luxury is something like a character rooster on NW's website which lists how many times character has died.
And luxury+ is a title associated with that.
So nothing is actually stopping PermaD. You can even get creative and extend this by having the person roll a number on some forum to see if he can be ressurected from dead body remains brought by his friends or dies permanently.
EDIT: Also RaiderZ PermaD didn't even had any global message or otherwise on death. It was just based on player honesty. Check here.
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muzrub333Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Permadeath is non feasible on NW as it's designed to be at the moment. The simple reason is that they want the game to run on one single server. Permadeath cannot be enforced on all people and cannot coexist on the same server as non-permadeath characters, for equally obvious reasons. It needs a separate server, which the devs over at Cryptic do not wanna happen. So, permadeath is not happening anytime soon.
I wasn't suggesting a permadeath server in my post, that would not fly. Just individuals playing with their own limits. "If I die, I will delete this character, and all my belongings, and re-roll". That type of thing. As mentioned above, DDO has an entire Permadeath guild, that has been around a long time. Same premise as choosing to role play a character.
I can't link DDO's permadeath guild because it would be kind of wrong to post it on NW forums, but it is called sublime if you want to check how it plays.
Also Raiderz PermaD guild (link I could post as it is PWE's game) was the most talked about guild during beta (in game and out of game) which I didn't expect as having PermaD in a combat game where a simple mistake can kill you.
Even if roleplaying is not famous in game, after being there I believe it is because of lack of initiative rather than lack of interest. A good initiative resurrects a lot of RPers in everyone.
RP has been going down in many games because of stupid debates regarding what is IC and what is OOC. RP should only concentrate on fun.
BTW, if you want to roleplay, you don't even need game. Check this thread. After they announce the classes, I will go there too.
p.s. Yay! Derailed the thread from DP to RP!
*dances for evil ritual of derailing*
We know what we are talking about because this topic has been picked up time and again for two years. We have already debated in and outs of death penalties and know that there is no point in discussing it till devs actually tell us about it.
<snip>
If you want to read on old ideas,
Many of which are incompatible with each other, and not a single one of which really explains why a penalty should exist or how it would accomplish what it is expected to accomplish... There's just this general nebulous idea that a penalty will somehow keep people from being "bad" without mechanically stepping through from cause to effect.
(Ironically, the second link is in response to a post of mine from before the NW forums got assimilated. It's a sort of "if we absolutely have to have one, let's do this" idea I throw out whenever these arguments happen.)
____________________
The gorilla formerly known as Kolikos
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vindiconMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I wasn't suggesting a permadeath server in my post, that would not fly. Just individuals playing with their own limits. "If I die, I will delete this character, and all my belongings, and re-roll". That type of thing. As mentioned above, DDO has an entire Permadeath guild, that has been around a long time. Same premise as choosing to role play a character.
Well, sorry about that, I thought you were talking about implementing an actual permadeath feature in the game.
Yeah, you'll find permadeath guilds in lots of MMOs, and I guess it can be cool in its way. RaiderZ also has one (though it's an anime themed-guild above all else, and the permadeath thingie stems from the theme of the particular anime series it was inspired from)
In character and out of character debate. When people fight that you can't do X at X instead of concentrating on their own group. etc. It turns to ugly fights. But I got quite derailed during discussions and they are a part of rolplaying and not related to death penalty.
Many of which are incompatible with each other, and not a single one of which really explains why a penalty should exist or how it would accomplish what it is expected to accomplish... There's just this general nebulous idea that a penalty will somehow keep people from being "bad" without mechanically stepping through from cause to effect.
(Ironically, the second link is in response to a post of mine from before the NW forums got assimilated. It's a sort of "if we absolutely have to have one, let's do this" idea I throw out whenever these arguments happen.)
The point is not making them compatible. We cannot take decisions - that is what devs do. We have to brainstrom and find several ways to do things. Some new ways to do it too - any way which would be interesting.
There are more threads on death penalties, including why they should be there. The intent of death penelty is not "mind control" but to make the game more immersive and fun. So that if your hp goes down, your heartbeat grows faster with fear and exhileration and you feel some emotion of dread and loss. But of-course, because of connection problems and all the system has to be forgiving too.
There are more reasons too, but if I start listing them by quoting old threads, it will go well beyond the word limit of a single post. So may I suggest search functionality
There are more reasons too, but if I start listing them by quoting old threads, it will go well beyond the word limit of a single post. So may I suggest search functionality
You can suggest whatever you want. :P My suggestion is that everyone who puts forward an idea for a penalty might want to go beyond simply describing what it is. If they don't describe in detail what they think it will accomplish, how it will accomplish it, and why it's worth accomplishing, then it simply won't happen the way they want it to happen. I'm suggesting that penalty advocates examine their own assumptions and goals, and determine whether the penalty they have in mind would realistically satisfy them. Anything less will result in a disappointing half-arsed mechanic.
Again, I have yet to see such detail, except for rare exceptions that don't "take" with the penalty crowd.* Almost all of what I've seen amounts to either "bad players are bad and need to be punished" (which I addressed before), or "we need a more tangible sense of risk vs. reward" (which I can actually appreciate, though it's too subjective a basis for a universal penalty).
* Even my own suggestion linked in your earlier post is based on a 'bad player is bad' assumption that I don't actually hold.
First, I think there needs to be some type of death penalty. A bonus to the players in xp for not dieing is great if you never make a mistake and have the reflexes of a cheetah. A penalty to xp for those same reasons, just discourages the player. You need to engage the player and empower them to decide. Without knowing what the game play will be like or the in game economy, here is my thought.
What if you lost a percentage of all skills, health, mana, etc., across the board. This would occur on any death as a temporary loss. This loss would occur no matter if you were resurrected by a cleric or re-spawn at some bind location. To gain this back the player would have to visit one or two main NPC's in the world at the main city or some other hub point that the player has to go back to at some point anyway. Another way to gain it back would be continuing to play until you get to the next level. If you decide to pay, there should be a high cost based on the player level because a level 2 player will have fewer resources vs a level 10 player. The penalty should stack if killed again prior to gaining this loss back and the amount to be paid for full recovery should be increased.
Now the player can decide. I just was killed, I am x percent below my normal level. Did I get killed because I fat fingered the wrong key or am I way in over my head here and need to practice before I attempt this again. If I am in a group, the group should realize that I am fighting at a reduced level and the group needs to account for that. The player can decide if they want to proceed at this lower skill level and keep playing or head back to the city.
Einstein - "We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them." "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
I remember play Asheron's Call a long time back and dreaded when I died. Having to run back and loot my corpse was often a difficult task considering that something was there that had killed me in the first place! Of all the games, that was probably the one in which I thought most about the way I played and learned to exercise more caution in my gameplay style.
I'm sure that the subject of a death penalty is something that the producers of the game have given a great deal of thought. I'll reserve my opinions on the subject and work within the game mechanics when they are released.
I actually found the GW1 death penalty very demotivating. As in, to the point where I quit and never looked back. Maybe they've changed it since, but it wasn't by killing just any mob that the penalty was erased, but by killing a boss. In my case, where I pretty much only died to bosses, that meant that if I wanted to lose the penalty, I'd have to go up against what already killed me once, but now with a -15% debuff. Even if you're more clever the second time around, that's a significant handicap.
The other choice was to map out - which meant all your progress through that map was lost. That meant fighting nearly every trash mob all over again through a huge twisted maze of a map, then facing that same boss again - probably none the wiser for not having fought it for 45 minutes or so.
Granted, it didn't happen to me often, but when it did I'd pretty much call it done for the night. The in-game prospects were sub-optimal with regards to the generation of "fun."
Unless you played the game at launch and stopped playing a year later, that was NEVER the DP system - I've played it since a year post-launch and it ALWAYS allowed you to lose DP on any mob that granted XP to your character (so no more than 5 levels under you). The DP loss was based on XP gains. Yes, bosses took away more than regular mobs, but it was by no means the only way to lose XP.
Not only that, the introduction of Nightfall and later EotN saw the intro of many items to take it away as a result of quest rewards.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
My suggestion is that everyone who puts forward an idea for a penalty might want to go beyond simply describing what it is. If they don't describe in detail what they think it will accomplish, how it will accomplish it, and why it's worth accomplishing, then it simply won't happen the way they want it to happen.
There is really no point in discussing specifics until the game is released.
There's only three things I want:
1. There has to be a death penalty
2. The death penalty has to be a penalty for current stats or an overcoming penalty. No "next quest gives 10%+ xp loss" garbage.
3. Specific's aside if I die I should say "I need to do better next time" instead of "well I might as well not care about the next death"
As a math geek I perceive the world differently.
5 for completing + 5 for surviving is no different than 10 for completing - 5 for dieing.
Difference is once I lose a life bonus I feel like I am going to waste my time continuing compared to losing what I've already earned for doing something wrong.
Take away what will be earned and the incentive for doing well goes away. Take away something I already earned and I'll still be doing my damn best to do better.
And that is why penalties are better than the 21st Century Retrogression.
The death penalty should be that you revert to a level 1 character with no class, forget your name, have your friends list wiped, re-roll your stats, you lose all your money and all your gear including your weapons and armor and have to find your way back to the prime material plane from a random place on either the astral or abyssal plane.
Alternatively, you stay dead till one of your party members or a friend or a complete stranger happens across your corpse and takes one of your finger bones to a priest and pays 5,000 gold out of thier own pocket to ressurect you, at which point you'd come back to life with no gear or money and 1 level less experience than you died with. Also, you should have to be signed in to the game while you wait for someone to find your corpse and only be able to talk to other dead players or anyone who cast a "Speak with dead" spell in your vicinity.
Or you could choose to be re-born as a level 0 child of a random race with a large penalty to all attributes for at least 8 hours of real time.
</bad ideas>
Actually, the standard bit of equipment damage and maybe some experience debt doesn't sound too bad.
Comments
I agree on this sentiment. The only time I feel any sort of death-penalty should be applied is if one resurrected themselves in the same location that they perished. If they were to get whisked away to some "bind" point or a Temple, then I do not feel there should be any penalty. Like-wise, if another player cast a spell, like resurrection (Warpriest or Templar), or used an item to bring back a comrade, there should be no death penalty beyond what the spell dictates.
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That could be easily fixed by simply not littering the world with resurection spots - one at the center of each map and one at the start of each dungeon should suffice. That should solve what's been happening for example in RaiderZ, ie dying to a group of skeletons and ressurecting 5 meters away from where you died, often getting picked off again by the same skeletons, because someone thought it clever to put a ressurection stone right amongst the mobs XD
Best way is to have it Raiderz way. A 1 min death penelty reducing your total hp by 90% and if you get killed before "rest" next death penelty will be 5 min. People will wait after death for some time when they see their hp as 200 instead of 2000.
And if you are running back all the way from resurrection spot, it will wear off by the time you reach the location.
Ressurections by clerics are fine. They sit on long cooldowns, are a hassle to pull off (long cast times, often they need to somehow get out of combat to even cast it, while still being 2 breaths away from the boss) and ressurections rarely restore more than a hair of health, so the resuurected person must first heal the f up or die again th next time the boss as much as sneezes at their general direction.
They are excellent and might be the only way to level down. I hope there are ways to reduce your level for certain adventures. Killing rats at paragon level wouldn't feel "paragon".
wait...
Why have ways to level yourself down instead of ways to level up the encounters?
Or get yourself on very basic low level gear - that should do the trick as well. See how those rats feel when you charge them bare-fisted and in a loincloth
I can't see that working in an this game.
I am quite sure many perma-death guilds will come in this game. I am quite sure DDO's perma-death guild will try it out too.
If perma-death can stay in DDO, NW will be a safe piece of cake compared to that.
Usually, in forums, the general consensus is that death penalties are too easy in modern MMORPGS and that, in upcoming mmorpg n? 877, something should be done to bring back more punishing death penalties, since they apparently are required to "forge" player skill while he levels or "preventing stupid, suicidal behaviour" as its some kind of ground-breaking problem that could cripple the game forever.
Then mmorpg n?877 comes out, the death penalty is pretty much as easy as all the modern mmorpgs (case of devs loling at forum "feedback", classic), and the community in the forums apparently doesn't give a rat about the subject anymore, so /shrug.
I've yet to read "This game failed because the death penalty is too soft! If the game had a harsher death penalty, I'm sure that the hundreds of thousands that left would never have in the first place! Please bring back level loss to save this game!"
*rollseyes*
Anyway, in the specific case of NWO, it's only natural that there will be some kind of death penalty, it's also an excuse to sell items that cancel (or prevent, like self resurrection scroll) said penalty with zens. I can't see it being anything more than loss of time, loss of gold, temporary debuff and small exp debt (not exp loss).
That is the fun part actually. I tried twice but could never go past lvl 18 on DDO (That damn undead beholder in rever's refuge). That makes the game actually interesting - the element of fear of losing your character.
But of-course it should be optional. Its not everybody's cup of tea.
If you want a penalty, you'll need to talk it through, in detail. How and why does the penalty you prefer prevent the behavior you perceive as undesirable, why is the behavior in question undesirable, and why will no other non-penalty solution work? Connect the dots - because if you don't, I guarantee Cryptic won't "get it" and you'll get saddled with a half-baked "penalty" that won't do what you wanted it to do. That other game still has people calling for a death penalty, apparently not realizing that a "penalty" already exists...
==========
While I'm here, I'm gonna put my cards on the table. As klangeddin pointed out, there are two commonly stated reasons for a penalty, and I'd like to point out why I think the reasons are either not relevant, or why they miss their target.
First, "people need a penalty to learn to play;" i.e., the "stick" component of the "carrot and stick" school of teaching. The problem here is simple: The only thing punishment teaches well is avoidance - and it doesn't even teach that unless the cause/effect relationship is immediately and obviously clear. Burnt your hand on a hot stove? You'll avoid stoves because they might be hot. Got an F on your history exam? Well, study harder, I guess - but that doesn't teach you how to study so that you do better on the next exam, does it?
If you "fail" at a game, it's not necessarily obvious why you failed; therefore punishment, by itself, won't help you step up your game.
Second, "people need a disincentive for zerging (or other self-defeating behavior)." If the behavior is truly head-against-a-brick-wall pointless, players who want to learn will figure it out; players who don't, won't. The existence or absence of a penalty won't change that; it'll just frustrate the first type of player, and give the second type of player a reason to call everyone else "bad."
On the other hand, if zerging actually works, that's a problem either with the encounter design, or with the game not matching your personal preference or expectation. Adding a penalty in either case is just treating the symptom without addressing the problem.
The gorilla formerly known as Kolikos
We know what we are talking about because this topic has been picked up time and again for two years. We have already debated in and outs of death penalties and know that there is no point in discussing it till devs actually tell us about it.
However we have brainstormed a lot on it and few ideas have been proposed by some people. So if you have an idea which can add to that massive discussion or a new idea which stands out being true to lore - kindly share it in hope devs may see it and it might help them making a true dnd or a better game.
If you want to read on old ideas,
link
link
link
link
Same as DDO's any server. Nothing new here.
All you need for PermaD is a guild-wide message when anyone dies. A global message eliminates you having to join the guild at level 1.
And luxury is something like a character rooster on NW's website which lists how many times character has died.
And luxury+ is a title associated with that.
So nothing is actually stopping PermaD. You can even get creative and extend this by having the person roll a number on some forum to see if he can be ressurected from dead body remains brought by his friends or dies permanently.
EDIT: Also RaiderZ PermaD didn't even had any global message or otherwise on death. It was just based on player honesty. Check here.
I wasn't suggesting a permadeath server in my post, that would not fly. Just individuals playing with their own limits. "If I die, I will delete this character, and all my belongings, and re-roll". That type of thing. As mentioned above, DDO has an entire Permadeath guild, that has been around a long time. Same premise as choosing to role play a character.
Also Raiderz PermaD guild (link I could post as it is PWE's game) was the most talked about guild during beta (in game and out of game) which I didn't expect as having PermaD in a combat game where a simple mistake can kill you.
Even if roleplaying is not famous in game, after being there I believe it is because of lack of initiative rather than lack of interest. A good initiative resurrects a lot of RPers in everyone.
RP has been going down in many games because of stupid debates regarding what is IC and what is OOC. RP should only concentrate on fun.
BTW, if you want to roleplay, you don't even need game. Check this thread. After they announce the classes, I will go there too.
p.s. Yay! Derailed the thread from DP to RP!
*dances for evil ritual of derailing*
(Ironically, the second link is in response to a post of mine from before the NW forums got assimilated. It's a sort of "if we absolutely have to have one, let's do this" idea I throw out whenever these arguments happen.)
The gorilla formerly known as Kolikos
Well, sorry about that, I thought you were talking about implementing an actual permadeath feature in the game.
Yeah, you'll find permadeath guilds in lots of MMOs, and I guess it can be cool in its way. RaiderZ also has one (though it's an anime themed-guild above all else, and the permadeath thingie stems from the theme of the particular anime series it was inspired from)
EDIT: ninjaed by gillrmn
EDIT 2: WTF is IC and OOC ???
In character and out of character debate. When people fight that you can't do X at X instead of concentrating on their own group. etc. It turns to ugly fights. But I got quite derailed during discussions and they are a part of rolplaying and not related to death penalty.
The point is not making them compatible. We cannot take decisions - that is what devs do. We have to brainstrom and find several ways to do things. Some new ways to do it too - any way which would be interesting.
There are more threads on death penalties, including why they should be there. The intent of death penelty is not "mind control" but to make the game more immersive and fun. So that if your hp goes down, your heartbeat grows faster with fear and exhileration and you feel some emotion of dread and loss. But of-course, because of connection problems and all the system has to be forgiving too.
There are more reasons too, but if I start listing them by quoting old threads, it will go well beyond the word limit of a single post. So may I suggest search functionality
Again, I have yet to see such detail, except for rare exceptions that don't "take" with the penalty crowd.* Almost all of what I've seen amounts to either "bad players are bad and need to be punished" (which I addressed before), or "we need a more tangible sense of risk vs. reward" (which I can actually appreciate, though it's too subjective a basis for a universal penalty).
* Even my own suggestion linked in your earlier post is based on a 'bad player is bad' assumption that I don't actually hold.
The gorilla formerly known as Kolikos
What if you lost a percentage of all skills, health, mana, etc., across the board. This would occur on any death as a temporary loss. This loss would occur no matter if you were resurrected by a cleric or re-spawn at some bind location. To gain this back the player would have to visit one or two main NPC's in the world at the main city or some other hub point that the player has to go back to at some point anyway. Another way to gain it back would be continuing to play until you get to the next level. If you decide to pay, there should be a high cost based on the player level because a level 2 player will have fewer resources vs a level 10 player. The penalty should stack if killed again prior to gaining this loss back and the amount to be paid for full recovery should be increased.
Now the player can decide. I just was killed, I am x percent below my normal level. Did I get killed because I fat fingered the wrong key or am I way in over my head here and need to practice before I attempt this again. If I am in a group, the group should realize that I am fighting at a reduced level and the group needs to account for that. The player can decide if they want to proceed at this lower skill level and keep playing or head back to the city.
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
I'm sure that the subject of a death penalty is something that the producers of the game have given a great deal of thought. I'll reserve my opinions on the subject and work within the game mechanics when they are released.
My Best,
Ezra Steel
Unless you played the game at launch and stopped playing a year later, that was NEVER the DP system - I've played it since a year post-launch and it ALWAYS allowed you to lose DP on any mob that granted XP to your character (so no more than 5 levels under you). The DP loss was based on XP gains. Yes, bosses took away more than regular mobs, but it was by no means the only way to lose XP.
Not only that, the introduction of Nightfall and later EotN saw the intro of many items to take it away as a result of quest rewards.
There is really no point in discussing specifics until the game is released.
There's only three things I want:
1. There has to be a death penalty
2. The death penalty has to be a penalty for current stats or an overcoming penalty. No "next quest gives 10%+ xp loss" garbage.
3. Specific's aside if I die I should say "I need to do better next time" instead of "well I might as well not care about the next death"
As a math geek I perceive the world differently.
5 for completing + 5 for surviving is no different than 10 for completing - 5 for dieing.
Difference is once I lose a life bonus I feel like I am going to waste my time continuing compared to losing what I've already earned for doing something wrong.
Take away what will be earned and the incentive for doing well goes away. Take away something I already earned and I'll still be doing my damn best to do better.
And that is why penalties are better than the 21st Century Retrogression.
Alternatively, you stay dead till one of your party members or a friend or a complete stranger happens across your corpse and takes one of your finger bones to a priest and pays 5,000 gold out of thier own pocket to ressurect you, at which point you'd come back to life with no gear or money and 1 level less experience than you died with. Also, you should have to be signed in to the game while you wait for someone to find your corpse and only be able to talk to other dead players or anyone who cast a "Speak with dead" spell in your vicinity.
Or you could choose to be re-born as a level 0 child of a random race with a large penalty to all attributes for at least 8 hours of real time.
</bad ideas>
Actually, the standard bit of equipment damage and maybe some experience debt doesn't sound too bad.