"We'll not risk another frontal assault. That rabbits dynamite!"
Level 50 white bunnies for everyone.
The name of my pet dragon who lives on the moon is "Carpet bomber of antioch - holy version". So I just need to look at Selune and chant a few words to take care of this mess.
But the question is, will I? (DUN! DUN! DUN!)
0
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited September 2012
Ok, let's kill a few birds with one stone,
yolksonu, my favorite response to that type of comment is thaqt turning a blind eye may work but it should never be a requirement on any game. If the work I put into playing the game is over-ruled because other people buy or exploit ways to get it faster it negatively effects me. To relate it to real life it's like steroids in professional sports...even if you're on the team that wins the championship the work you put into the game is belittled by those which use performance enhancing drugs.
Just because players could choose to not care if they're punished for not buying or exploiting the system doesn't ever, under and circumstances, mean it should be a requirement to enjoy and be proud of the work players put into the game.
So does that mean you can't give people items that exist solely in the foundry?
As far as unique quest items it might be a possibility, not entirely sure, but the items wouldn't be able to really have any unique stats or such. This is one of the gray areas of our knowledge.
However at this time no we will not be able to add functional custom weapons, armor or other such items into our content although Jack Emmert did mention he'd like to implement the option in the future if possible. Of course in order to prevent any exploitation, measures would have to be made to ensure that players didn't take such items (and hopefully XP) out of the custom content.
Are monsters something the author can choose? Or are they randomly implemented like loot and everything else? Was kinda hoping we could choose the monsters according to level at least.
Yes you will be able to choose the monsters and set an encounter difficulty but you will not be able to give them unique and custom attributes.
I can understand, you feel less value in a team effort by someone who buys or cheats their way to do the same. I was just curious behind the reasoning. I play for the enjoyment of the game so I have a difficult time understanding why people go through the effort to exploit a game vs just playing.
Einstein - "We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them." "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
0
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited September 2012
I wouldn't use the word team, but yeah I think you have the idea.
I don't understand why somebody would cheat in a game either as it kills all enjoyment for me. If you're going to play a game the only way to be happy with the time you spent in it should be to earn the rewards. Any person can type in a cheat code to artificially do well but real pride comes from earning the rewards.
However while I couldn't give two cents if somebody cheats in a single player game the impact on me in a multiplayer game is beyond detrimental.
I don't play *to* get the best items and the best gear but it is something I enjoy when it happens...normally through a lot of work.
I have played games in the past that I put hours of work into playing the game. One game in particular keeps a log and in order to get close to getting max level I have over 500 days logged in (in hours) in order to get a max level character.
In the last couple of years the company which produced the game stopped caring about the integrity of the game and started relaxing their rules on botting and real world trading. I would walk around and be accused of botting for my success. Items which designated the effort I put into the game turned into symbols of cheating basically overnight.
Being harrassed for the effort I put into the game is something I can bear...
But being accused of cheating because other players were allowed to cheat for success...to this day I can't explain the feeling.
Exploiting a multiplayer game belittles the accomplishments of all players...
And without some feeling of accomplishment there's no reason to play a game.
'I have fun playing my own way' is turning a blind eye to the rest of the game and nothing good has ever come from turning a blind eye to anything.
I play for the enjoyment of the game so I have a difficult time understanding why people go through the effort to exploit a game vs just playing.
It's exactly because of the enjoyment.
If we're talking about an MMO, half the satisfaction of the game if not more comes out of player vs player competition. And by that I do not just mean straight up PvP, but also who will top the rankings for X, Y and Z, who will get to be the first to clear dungeon A or boss B, who will gain the top hand in the blacksmith/artisan/etc market and so on and so forth. MMOs are largely about sets of goals and how efficiently you can achieve them, rather than story or pure gameplay, so you'll often find it much more tempting to try and cheat in an MMO than you would in a single-player game, where there's noone to compete with about anything.
The other reason that people cheat in videogames is to bypass tedious elements of the game. I for example had to eventually disable the hunger mechanics in NWN2:MotB because they did nothing but get in the way of me enjoying the game. And when it comes to MMOs, parts of the gameplay are often quite tedious and you'll undoubtedly feel the urge to bypass them. You'll hardly feel motivated to continue hacking away after the 100th kobold you killed didn't drop enough of what you needed. Thus some people cheat through it via bots and whatnot.
I am fairly new to MMO's starting with DDO 3 years ago and toyed with a few others. Was never one to pay a monthly sub so I buy content, like DDO adventures or GW expansions. I do not buy the xp boosts or items to "enhance" my game play. Not a competitive player either unless it is in good fun. Think Caddyshack when Chevy was asked how he compares himself to other golfers, by height. So I have a different perspective on how I view my accomplishments which is why I ask.
On the other hand, I have run into cheaters in a racing game. It is frustrating that you would never be able to beat their times and the company running the game really does not care. So yeah, I see everyone's point. I guess until we get actual hands on and see how the whole thing will work, no one will know how exploitable it could be.
Einstein - "We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them." "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
0
iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
So does that mean you can't give people items that exist solely in the foundry? Like a quest item. For instance, in Planescape:Torment you needed junk to open a portal at one point. Could I give players a valueless item that simply ties into the quest? And as to merchants, can you even make merchants? As in, can you make a city in Foundry and put merchants in it? Not to say you control the items they have, the prices, or any of the sort. As people have previously stated, those things (like loot drop/chests) would be random and dependent on level. These are questions I need answered if I plan on using foundry. I like to create massive areas and stories, not just go here, kill the dragon, and leave. I also like making places that can only be reached by having certain items, like junk. And as for puzzles, has it been detailed as to what we can do with them? Like, outside of people giving puzzles. Example (again PS:T) there's a door painted on a building, unless you're character has a high enough score of some sort or studies the painting for a long time, they'll never realize it's a real door. I was thinking something along the lines of using illusion magic for this. Kind of like the Matrix. Don't try to open the door, it's impossible. Instead, try to realize that there is no door. Seemed like a pretty simple thing to do, but since we (or at least I) don't know the extent of Foundry abilities yet, I wasn't sure if anyone had some idea to this.
Absolutely you may make quest items, but they only last for that adventure module, even in campaigns (since campaigns apparently just link adventure modules as a series but each game is independent verifying what you do in one game does not affect another)
But no, these quest items are in absolutely no way magic items. They are just inventory slot items that may or may not be "consumed" to open doors and such or used as flags by NPC's to meet "if you succeeded in the quest" things. I hope in the future to learn how to use these things and make campaign stories with a specific quest item when we can start making modules, but it seems I'll have to have an interact-able item on a map or NPC grant it each mod I do so for the "same item in the series."
I looked for more specific info, but nothing else I can find publicly I didn't already post on the FAQ
Are monsters something the author can choose? Or are they randomly implemented like loot and everything else? Was kinda hoping we could choose the monsters according to level at least.
I can answer that. Authors search for and choose the specific monster of those offered in Cryptic's database like you would place rooms and items. Enemies may be solo or come in "groups" where you can place multiple monsters in a selected group in a "circle radius" individually to place you attack that way.
We haven't seen a "random monster of easy/moderate/hard difficulty" option though.
And while we can customize to the point of it looking weird as Andy warns, we can' change the monster attack attributes for game balance reasons just like we can't change treasures.
Monsters are scaled based on the level of the character, and also have easy/moderate/hard levels as well. So I could search in the "enemies" section of the map tab and look up "orcs", I will get a whole listing of orc groups or solos that also come in easy/moderate/hard (most of the time from what I could see on the videos) for each pre-made orc option. So I have ranged Attacks and melees and they all have those difficulty levels and scale to the player.
Has the question become, Is a quest that is simply one room with one door, through which an endless stream of mobs flow through an exploit or working as intended?
Would a macro be able to AOE through this quest to max level and then sell this maxxed out character? Should we even care if this is possible? Or should we embrace this fact?
0
iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Has the question become, Is a quest that is simply one room with one door, through which an endless stream of mobs flow through an exploit or working as intended?
Would a macro be able to AOE through this quest to max level and then sell this maxxed out character? Should we even care if this is possible? Or should we embrace this fact?
I didn't see any macro support like STO. And also like STO if somebody was caught using macros as that exploit, they risk being banned. From what I can see, literally there is a limit as to how many total objects you can place in a room let alone how many enemies. If a dev can mention the NPC enemy limits placed in a game (the cap on enemies) it would be appreciated.
And any of you top secret people trying to feed me info, hush. if it's secret I can't publicly post it and we need a public listing on this cap.
I didn't see any macro support like STO. And also like STO if somebody was caught using macros as that exploit, they risk being banned. From what I can see, literally there is a limit as to how many total objects you can place in a room let alone how many enemies. If a dev can mention the NPC enemy limits placed in a game (the cap on enemies) it would be appreciated.
And any of you top secret people trying to feed me info, hush. if it's secret I can't publicly post it and we need a public listing on this cap.
By macro I meant the creation of a program that plays one UGC quest all day long over and over until max level is achieved.
By macro I meant the creation of a program that plays one UGC quest all day long over and over until max level is achieved.
This has to be a major concern. Macros and monty haul quests would go hand in hand.
Maybe a timer can be put in place that disallows re-running the same quest over and over again? Either a ransack chest timer like in DDO or even better a more strict limit... say 3 times in a 24 hour period and that's it. There should be no need to rerun the same quest more than 3 times when so many quests are available.
This has to be a major concern. Macros and monty haul quests would go hand in hand.
Maybe a timer can be put in place that disallows re-running the same quest over and over again? Either a ransack chest timer like in DDO or even better a more strict limit... say 3 times in a 24 hour period and that's it. There should be no need to rerun the same quest more than 3 times when so many quests are available.
Well STO put a limit on the amount of XP you can achieve per day through UGC and the COO of Cryptic actually sounded excited about that, as if limiting the actions of their players was a goal. The goal should be the creation of an illusion of unlimited potential.
But more to the point, if I want to run the same quest 50 times in one day why shouldn't I be rewarded with a 50 times in one day achievement and a silly hat to boot?
0
iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited September 2012
My bad. I meant I don't see any way the game engine and current security would allow Macros to be done and anybody caught doing so etc.
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited September 2012
I personally wouldn't mind a limit on repeated UGC rewards. In fact in the past I stated my ideal system would be to give half potential rewards if you immediately repeat a quest and 10% of the reward potential returned every day for 5 days without repeating the quest.
Of course that opinion is made without first seeing the mechanics of the game but grinding quests indefinitely defeats the purpose of having UGC. On a personal level I believe the biggest shame that could occur is encouraging players to repeat content to level or get rewards at a fast pace.
I want something like the system I described to encourage players to play various different content rather than grind the same content. Giving reduced rewards for rapid repetition of quests would reduce any attempts to exploit the system or inadvertent punishments for playing a diverse range of content.
I personally wouldn't mind a limit on repeated UGC rewards. In fact in the past I stated my ideal system would be to give half potential rewards if you immediately repeat a quest and 10% of the reward potential returned every day for 5 days without repeating the quest.
Of course that opinion is made without first seeing the mechanics of the game but grinding quests indefinitely defeats the purpose of having UGC. On a personal level I believe the biggest shame that could occur is encouraging players to repeat content to level or get rewards at a fast pace.
I want something like the system I described to encourage players to play various different content rather than grind the same content. Giving reduced rewards for rapid repetition of quests would reduce any attempts to exploit the system or inadvertent punishments for playing a diverse range of content.
Certainly, add a 50 different quests in one day achievement, everyone has a different playstyle after all.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
Certainly, add a 50 different quests in one day achievement, everyone has a different playstyle after all.
Well that kind of system would probably cause issues such as people developing stupidly shirt quests in order to get that achievement/xp bonus.
However I think it would be awesome if there was some way to incorporate some type of achievement system like that without also creating negative encouragements.
iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited September 2012
Give the achievement for the completion number, just exclude the in one day. Of course this is under the assumption we get our quest creation slots back eventually, or everybody will have to do very well to get slots beyond eight (or get the assumed 10 K per slot in Astral Diamonds if STO has taught me anything.)
Whether someone else cheats or not isnt important to me.. i know the STO foundry, and there is very little room for actual cheating.. sure you can make a short mission, go in, pee on the bush, and you are done.. and how does this hurt anyone else? you get almost no exp, the reward is the purple rocks. What can you get with them? crappy gear. lol. and what about the guy who plays for pure fun, and makes a zoo for his 3 year old kid to run around in, and publishes that to the game? does it get a ban rating cuz it isnt up to your older baby standards? And as for copyright infringement, anything in dungeons and dragons should be free to use for anyone regardless of which company teamed up. Turbine own absolutely no rights to the names probably. i am not 100 percent here, so if i am wrong, that is dumb, but the rights are owned by wotc, and they are working with both companies. So if you want to use tiamat, you probably can.
iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited September 2012
I'm more worried that the main quests will give multiple treasures or mmultiple options (like the STO main quest-line multiple choice) and the Foundry just will give some "end of mission" reward only hardcoded random or fixed each time based on class. .
Comments
The name of my pet dragon who lives on the moon is "Carpet bomber of antioch - holy version". So I just need to look at Selune and chant a few words to take care of this mess.
But the question is, will I? (DUN! DUN! DUN!)
yolksonu, my favorite response to that type of comment is thaqt turning a blind eye may work but it should never be a requirement on any game. If the work I put into playing the game is over-ruled because other people buy or exploit ways to get it faster it negatively effects me. To relate it to real life it's like steroids in professional sports...even if you're on the team that wins the championship the work you put into the game is belittled by those which use performance enhancing drugs.
Just because players could choose to not care if they're punished for not buying or exploiting the system doesn't ever, under and circumstances, mean it should be a requirement to enjoy and be proud of the work players put into the game.
As far as unique quest items it might be a possibility, not entirely sure, but the items wouldn't be able to really have any unique stats or such. This is one of the gray areas of our knowledge.
However at this time no we will not be able to add functional custom weapons, armor or other such items into our content although Jack Emmert did mention he'd like to implement the option in the future if possible. Of course in order to prevent any exploitation, measures would have to be made to ensure that players didn't take such items (and hopefully XP) out of the custom content.
Yes you will be able to choose the monsters and set an encounter difficulty but you will not be able to give them unique and custom attributes.
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
I don't understand why somebody would cheat in a game either as it kills all enjoyment for me. If you're going to play a game the only way to be happy with the time you spent in it should be to earn the rewards. Any person can type in a cheat code to artificially do well but real pride comes from earning the rewards.
However while I couldn't give two cents if somebody cheats in a single player game the impact on me in a multiplayer game is beyond detrimental.
I don't play *to* get the best items and the best gear but it is something I enjoy when it happens...normally through a lot of work.
I have played games in the past that I put hours of work into playing the game. One game in particular keeps a log and in order to get close to getting max level I have over 500 days logged in (in hours) in order to get a max level character.
In the last couple of years the company which produced the game stopped caring about the integrity of the game and started relaxing their rules on botting and real world trading. I would walk around and be accused of botting for my success. Items which designated the effort I put into the game turned into symbols of cheating basically overnight.
Being harrassed for the effort I put into the game is something I can bear...
But being accused of cheating because other players were allowed to cheat for success...to this day I can't explain the feeling.
Exploiting a multiplayer game belittles the accomplishments of all players...
And without some feeling of accomplishment there's no reason to play a game.
'I have fun playing my own way' is turning a blind eye to the rest of the game and nothing good has ever come from turning a blind eye to anything.
It's exactly because of the enjoyment.
If we're talking about an MMO, half the satisfaction of the game if not more comes out of player vs player competition. And by that I do not just mean straight up PvP, but also who will top the rankings for X, Y and Z, who will get to be the first to clear dungeon A or boss B, who will gain the top hand in the blacksmith/artisan/etc market and so on and so forth. MMOs are largely about sets of goals and how efficiently you can achieve them, rather than story or pure gameplay, so you'll often find it much more tempting to try and cheat in an MMO than you would in a single-player game, where there's noone to compete with about anything.
The other reason that people cheat in videogames is to bypass tedious elements of the game. I for example had to eventually disable the hunger mechanics in NWN2:MotB because they did nothing but get in the way of me enjoying the game. And when it comes to MMOs, parts of the gameplay are often quite tedious and you'll undoubtedly feel the urge to bypass them. You'll hardly feel motivated to continue hacking away after the 100th kobold you killed didn't drop enough of what you needed. Thus some people cheat through it via bots and whatnot.
On the other hand, I have run into cheaters in a racing game. It is frustrating that you would never be able to beat their times and the company running the game really does not care. So yeah, I see everyone's point. I guess until we get actual hands on and see how the whole thing will work, no one will know how exploitable it could be.
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
Absolutely you may make quest items, but they only last for that adventure module, even in campaigns (since campaigns apparently just link adventure modules as a series but each game is independent verifying what you do in one game does not affect another)
But no, these quest items are in absolutely no way magic items. They are just inventory slot items that may or may not be "consumed" to open doors and such or used as flags by NPC's to meet "if you succeeded in the quest" things. I hope in the future to learn how to use these things and make campaign stories with a specific quest item when we can start making modules, but it seems I'll have to have an interact-able item on a map or NPC grant it each mod I do so for the "same item in the series."
I looked for more specific info, but nothing else I can find publicly I didn't already post on the FAQ
I can answer that. Authors search for and choose the specific monster of those offered in Cryptic's database like you would place rooms and items. Enemies may be solo or come in "groups" where you can place multiple monsters in a selected group in a "circle radius" individually to place you attack that way.
We haven't seen a "random monster of easy/moderate/hard difficulty" option though.
And while we can customize to the point of it looking weird as Andy warns, we can' change the monster attack attributes for game balance reasons just like we can't change treasures.
Monsters are scaled based on the level of the character, and also have easy/moderate/hard levels as well. So I could search in the "enemies" section of the map tab and look up "orcs", I will get a whole listing of orc groups or solos that also come in easy/moderate/hard (most of the time from what I could see on the videos) for each pre-made orc option. So I have ranged Attacks and melees and they all have those difficulty levels and scale to the player.
Would a macro be able to AOE through this quest to max level and then sell this maxxed out character? Should we even care if this is possible? Or should we embrace this fact?
I didn't see any macro support like STO. And also like STO if somebody was caught using macros as that exploit, they risk being banned. From what I can see, literally there is a limit as to how many total objects you can place in a room let alone how many enemies. If a dev can mention the NPC enemy limits placed in a game (the cap on enemies) it would be appreciated.
And any of you top secret people trying to feed me info, hush. if it's secret I can't publicly post it and we need a public listing on this cap.
There we go about the first rule of fightclub once again b:chuckle
By macro I meant the creation of a program that plays one UGC quest all day long over and over until max level is achieved.
This has to be a major concern. Macros and monty haul quests would go hand in hand.
Maybe a timer can be put in place that disallows re-running the same quest over and over again? Either a ransack chest timer like in DDO or even better a more strict limit... say 3 times in a 24 hour period and that's it. There should be no need to rerun the same quest more than 3 times when so many quests are available.
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Well STO put a limit on the amount of XP you can achieve per day through UGC and the COO of Cryptic actually sounded excited about that, as if limiting the actions of their players was a goal. The goal should be the creation of an illusion of unlimited potential.
But more to the point, if I want to run the same quest 50 times in one day why shouldn't I be rewarded with a 50 times in one day achievement and a silly hat to boot?
Of course that opinion is made without first seeing the mechanics of the game but grinding quests indefinitely defeats the purpose of having UGC. On a personal level I believe the biggest shame that could occur is encouraging players to repeat content to level or get rewards at a fast pace.
I want something like the system I described to encourage players to play various different content rather than grind the same content. Giving reduced rewards for rapid repetition of quests would reduce any attempts to exploit the system or inadvertent punishments for playing a diverse range of content.
Certainly, add a 50 different quests in one day achievement, everyone has a different playstyle after all.
Well that kind of system would probably cause issues such as people developing stupidly shirt quests in order to get that achievement/xp bonus.
However I think it would be awesome if there was some way to incorporate some type of achievement system like that without also creating negative encouragements.
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