Interesting. Your argument is basically - If they level faster/easier than me it upsets me because i did not do it too.
That's not at all his point. I gave you the negatives in my post. You may not agree, but you are only one opinion. Many others will feel cheated, and with good reason.
- You will be outleveled. The server will have capped characters with zero foundry content in a week or so.
- You are not Cheated if you play the way you enjoy and have fun doing it. You are not cheated if Bob leveled faster via different quests. IF you chose not to run a quest you are in NO WAY cheated if Bob does.
- In ANY game you choose what to do and what not to do. What optionals do you do? What side quests? You choose to do or not do them.
These three are all off topic. They do not relate to my OP, or to what ambisinisterr has said.
I am in a guild that loves to Raid. I do not. I raid sometimes, most times I do not. I am not cheated because My DDO guild has pretty much top line gear and I do not. I enjoy my play time, i have fun, I run with friends, etc. I CHOOSE not to grind gear, and wonders of wonder - I am not cheated in any way.
You DDO history doesn't really matter to this discussion. The fact your DDO guild raided and you didnt is completely off topic.
In a nutshell if YOU don't feel cheated, that's cool. However, many more will feel cheated. This is why exploitation can not be allowed, and game balance must be sought.
A fair game is a game that each person has the same chance to win. The same rules apply to everyone, and there's a penalty to those who cheat. If cards are stacked in certain peoples' favor, it is not a fair game. There are a good number of folks that wont play games stacked against them. This results in loss revenue to Cryptic. Therefore, its in Cryptic's best interests to set their rules in stone EARLY, and enforce them.
For the record, I agree; I dont care if someone levels faster than me. I also dont care if someone gets some "phat loot" before I do. That isnt why I play. But for the people who do care about that, I completely understand why they would be miffed about someone exploiting the system. Furthermore, if exploiting the system is tolerated, that kind of mission is going to dominate the same way weeds do in a garden. There will be some great missions there too, but they will be cluttered by a bunch of quickie weeds.
I fully respect that viewpoint and it is very accurate to what I have seen in games, the comments I have seen strewn about STO and my fears towards NW.
Again I don't mind short quests, they serve their purpose.
One of my favorite DDO quests was actually Kobold Assault. I had a blast continuously going near death and screaming and running in circles "Get it away from me!" towards friends on skype.
Like all other short content after the sixth time or so I was fairly burnt out on it...but it was fun for a time.
My preferred quests were the ones such as "The Pit" which was histerical in it's own right when my friend tried to go down to ladder...fell...manged to survive with NO hit points....and it must have taken him a good 2 minutes to climb up that ladder again...
Was it as rewarding as Kobold Assault? No. But it was still a good reward for the time and the minimal issues I had with it.
I strive to seek compromise. However to me, in this case, compromise is balancing the game to "adequately reward everybody for their time and effort."
I expect everybody to be duly rewarded. Nothing more. Nothing less.
So, does anyone else have any ideas on potential exploits and how to address them?
The only thing I am truly worried about is that rewards will not have a wide enough range of variables when "difficulty" is derived.
For instance the difficulty of a quest shouldn't be considered with 'creep count' alone. It should consider how much dialogue is in the quest, how much time the average player takes to complete it, the rating of the quest and many more. The more variables the better.
I am sure some of you may be very "no to player power" but I do believe Foundry Reviewers should be able to suggest to cryptic, in their reviews, a higher or lower reward scale for particular content.
I fully respect that viewpoint and it is very accurate to what I have seen in games, the comments I have seen strewn about STO and my fears towards NW.
Again I don't mind short quests, they serve their purpose.
One of my favorite DDO quests was actually Kobold Assault. I had a blast continuously going near death and screaming and running in circles "Get it away from me!" towards friends on skype.
Like all other short content after the sixth time or so I was fairly burnt out on it...but it was fun for a time.
My preferred quests were the ones such as "The Pit" which was histerical in it's own right when my friend tried to go down to ladder...fell...manged to survive with NO hit points....and it must have taken him a good 2 minutes to climb up that ladder again...
Was it as rewarding as Kobold Assault? No. But it was still a good reward for the time and the minimal issues I had with it.
I strive to seek compromise. However to me, in this case, compromise is balancing the game to "adequately reward everybody for their time and effort."
I expect everybody to be duly rewarded. Nothing more. Nothing less.
Same here with Kobold Assault on Elite (*whimper*)
The question is, can we mostly come to a consensus what "compromise" is in regards to what "balance" is?
Tile shal tell, and I look forward to all of us and many more playtesting the Foundry to achieve this consensus.
Again I don't mind short quests, they serve their purpose.
Just so we're clear, I'm not talking about "short quests", but actual exploits. A short mission like "hey, this guy stole my thing, please go kill him and get it back" where you only kill 1 guy is a short quest. But a mission where you simply click on an object and thats it is an exploit. If you are referring to exploit missions, what purpose do you mean they serve?
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Just so we're clear, I'm not talking about "short quests", but actual exploits. A short mission like "hey, this guy stole my thing, please go kill him and get it back" where you only kill 1 guy is a short quest. But a mission where you simply click on an object and thats it is an exploit. If you are referring to exploit missions, what purpose do you mean they serve?
See, "go tap this control panel" for example of "too short" quest concerns.
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited August 2012
I edited this in to my previous most in an attempt to comform to Andre's post which I did not see :-(
Here it is again for you truthseeker and others.
The only thing I am truly worried about is that rewards will not have a wide enough range of variables when "difficulty" is derived.
For instance the difficulty of a quest shouldn't be considered with 'creep count' alone. It should consider how much dialogue is in the quest, how much time the average player takes to complete it, the rating of the quest and many more. The more variables the better.
I am sure some of you may be very "no to player power" but I do believe Foundry Reviewers should be able to suggest to cryptic, in their reviews, a higher or lower reward scale for particular content.
To repeat, lets get some other opinions involved here, before we get into an endless back and forth.
Let me summarize. Short quests with purpose are fine. One click quests are most likely an exploit. The panels need the authority to distinguish between a short quest that has purpose and an outright exploit. We need a set of rules to follow and we need to be able to trust the review process.
The current process has failed to stop some missions in STO, as these insta-win exploits are allowed to pass thru unchallenged. I believe my two panel/two review/one dev plan will offer a far better process than the one currently in place.
Naturally we need Cryptic to step up and state what is not allowed, first.
To repeat, lets get some other opinions involved here, before we get into an endless back and forth.
Let me summarize. Short quests with purpose are fine. The panels need the authority to distinguish between a short quest that has purpose and an outright exploit. One click quests are not. We need a set of rules to follow and we need to be able to trust the review process.
The current process has failed to stop these missions in STO, as these insta-win exploits are allowed to pass thru unchallenged. I believe my two panel/two review/one dev plan will offer a far better process than the one currently in place.
Naturally we need Cryptic to step up and state what is not allowed, first.
*Fully supporting that last part (while open to the review specifics,) and stepping back today to allow others to state their feedback on this. *
*Fully supporting that last part (while open to the review specifics,) and stepping back today to allow others to state their feedback on this. *
Thank you Truth... but don't step back too far... I just want to get as many ideas as we can discussed, for the betterment of the Foundry. As always, your input is valued.
I edited this in to my previous most in an attempt to comform to Andre's post which I did not see :-(
Here it is again for you truthseeker and others.
Actually, I have no problem with that and would support it.
The thing with the hit this console and you are done is the reward CRYPTIC offered for doing X number of Foundry quests. That quest could just have easily been click 10 consoles and have a lot of lore thrown at you that you do not have to read and recall and it would still be just as bad from some peoples viewpoint. The problem is not the quest itself = it is the fact that Cryptic put a mechanic in that made the quest worth more than it is. The simple solution to NW is to NOT have that mechanic and you do not have to worry about the quests themselves.
Until they have the tech in place to lock monty haul/xp feast quests to the quest/campaign they are not going to allow players to adjust items/loot/xp. Therefore the foundry does not have an issue.
The cream will rise to the top.
The Pit is a xp farming quest, jump in, hammer it out, rinse and repeat.
My favorite DDO quests are: Gwylan's Stand and Stormcleave. Both were well done, mixed out door and indoor environments and seemed to be well thought out.
My least favorite quest in DDO is Sleeping Dust. There is no good reason to let a spider live.
My favorite DDO quests are: Gwylan's Stand and Stormcleave. Both were well done, mixed out door and indoor environments and seemed to be well thought out.
My least favorite quest in DDO is Sleeping Dust. There is no good reason to let a spider live.
To repeat, lets get some other opinions involved here, before we get into an endless back and forth.
Let me summarize. Short quests with purpose are fine. One click quests are most likely an exploit. The panels need the authority to distinguish between a short quest that has purpose and an outright exploit. We need a set of rules to follow and we need to be able to trust the review process.
The current process has failed to stop some missions in STO, as these insta-win exploits are allowed to pass thru unchallenged. I believe my two panel/two review/one dev plan will offer a far better process than the one currently in place.
Naturally we need Cryptic to step up and state what is not allowed, first.
and again, 1 click quests do not matter. The issue in STO is not the quest it is the REWARD that Cryptic put in place for playing X number of daily foundry quests. The fix is a simple one: Do not put that mechanic into NW!
Who cares if someone goes into a click this panel and get 5 xp quest with 3 cp loot (as that is probably what you would get)? It only becomes an issue when Cryptic has a do x of these for this loot you really need! Then you will see ALL kinds of short quests show up. Kill 1 kobald and done, Read 1 book, etc. because quite frankly people will find the path of least resistance to accomplish a goal.
Without that mechanic, the cream will rise and the foundry will produce great content. With that mechanic, you will NEVER get rid of those quests.
and again, 1 click quests do not matter. The issue in STO is not the quest it is the REWARD that Cryptic put in place for playing X number of daily foundry quests. The fix is a simple one: Do not put that mechanic into NW!
Who cares if someone goes into a click this panel and get 5 xp quest with 3 cp loot (as that is probably what you would get)? It only becomes an issue when Cryptic has a do x of these for this loot you really need! Then you will see ALL kinds of short quests show up. Kill 1 kobald and done, Read 1 book, etc. because quite frankly people will find the path of least resistance to accomplish a goal.
Without that mechanic, the cream will rise and the foundry will produce great content. With that mechanic, you will NEVER get rid of those quests.
Can someone describe this STO mechanic, want to make sure I have it down pat. The way I understand it is lets say you do 3 quests, you get a reward, like a story arc in DDO which gives a named item, do I have it wrong?
Can someone describe this STO mechanic, want to make sure I have it down pat. The way I understand it is lets say you do 3 quests, you get a reward, like a story arc in DDO which gives a named item, do I have it wrong?
It is a daily quest thing. IF you do 3 foundry quests you get 1400 dilithium ore. D.O. is used to purchase, characters, ships, upgrades, etc. so it VERY sought after. By offering 1400 per daily 3 quests it put in place a mechanic to farm short quests to get er done so to speak.
That is what is wrong with the click one console quest. It is NOT the quest itself - it is the reward Cryptic put in place for doing 3 foundry missions.
The fix - smaller reward or do not have it in place. An alternate - have a % chance to get D.O. for each end reward you get in a foundry quest.
So you see, it is not the quest that is the issue - it is the reward by Cryptic.
It is a daily quest thing. IF you do 3 foundry quests you get 1400 dilithium ore. D.O. is used to purchase, characters, ships, upgrades, etc. so it VERY sought after. By offering 1400 per daily 3 quests it put in place a mechanic to farm short quests to get er done so to speak.
That is what is wrong with the click one console quest. It is NOT the quest itself - it is the reward Cryptic put in place for doing 3 foundry missions.
The fix - smaller reward or do not have it in place. An alternate - have a % chance to get D.O. for each end reward you get in a foundry quest.
So you see, it is not the quest that is the issue - it is the reward by Cryptic.
Ok well that's just asking to get exploited.
Now I understand why I hear so many say to get rid of the mechanic.
I can envision another way to go about it, where they can keep the mechanic in place. Check this:
How about limiting the ore mechanic to only Foundry authors that score over a certain community satisfaction level? Authors that have had a quest removed because it was deemed an exploit by Cryptic employee can no longer offer the ore mechanic to quest-goers. Therefore it blackballs not only the quest deemed an exploit, but severely limits that author from creating future exploits.
Now I understand why I hear so many say to get rid of the mechanic.
I can envision another way to go about it, where they can keep the mechanic in place. Check this:
How about limiting the ore mechanic to only Foundry authors that score over a certain level? Authors that have had a quest removed because it was deemed an exploit by Cryptic employee can no longer offer the ore mechanic to quest-goers. Therefore it blackballs not only the quest deemed an exploit, but severely limits that author from creating future exploits.
Farmers will vote high for 'exploitive' solutions. It is the mechanic that is the issue. But that would work for a while I guess.
See that is what I am trying to get at: There is nothing wrong with the foundry. IT works and it works fine. The 1 console quest does NOT give an unfair reward. Cryptic does for doing 3 of them.
Until the tech is in for contained modules/campaigns we will not have the ability to alter loot tables or xp tables, etc. so the foundry is safe from 'explotive' quests. SURE you can make a click this for reward quest - but it will give you <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> xp compared to a real one. There is no reason to worry about cheat quests, <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> quests will give <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> xp/loot and without an outside mechanic to farm them - die.
So if someone wants to make a Monty Haul/XP fest - let em - they will be self contained. Me, I will probably work on recreating Greyhawk or something. Hmmmm . . . Greyhawk with something like the spell plague (because I actually do like that concept). . .
and again, 1 click quests do not matter. The issue in STO is not the quest it is the REWARD that Cryptic put in place for playing X number of daily foundry quests. The fix is a simple one: Do not put that mechanic into NW!
Yes, that is a simple fix. But it also punishes people who enjoy the foundry. Why shouldnt those people be able to play missions they enjoy AND get a valuable reward for it? The answer is, they should. And the solution to the exploit we're discussing is to make the mission rewards scale based on each individual mission's average completion time. That means if you create a quickie mission you get next to nothing.
Without that mechanic, the cream will rise and the foundry will produce great content. With that mechanic, you will NEVER get rid of those quests.
The above solution would in fact get rid of those quests. Also, without a valuable reward for playing foundry missions, far less people will play them. Even the people who really like foundry missions. Why? 2 reasons:
1) MMOs always have some type of rare currency(or similar mechanic) which is required to get high level gear
2) Most people only have a limited amount of time to play.
So lets say you have a guy who truly enjoys foundry missions, but also truly wants to get his epic gear. If that guy only has 1 hour to play, he now has to choose between doing a mission he enjoys but rewards nothing valuable, or doing the missions he doesnt enjoy as much but will help him get the epic gear.
I say it shouldnt have to be one or the other. Foundry missions should have rewards that are actually valuable. And if they do what I suggested above about scaling rewards based on average time, you wont be able to exploit it.
Farmers will vote high for 'exploitive' solutions. It is the mechanic that is the issue. But that would work for a while I guess.
Ahh, but using my solution, quests voted as an exploit by enough of the community would limit or eliminate that author the ability to author quests that allow the ore mechanic.
Ahh, but using my solution, quests voted as an exploit by enough of the community would limit or eliminate that author the ability to author quests that allow the ore mechanic.
The problem is, in a F2P game with no barrier to using the foundry, you can create unlimited accounts.
The problem is, in a F2P game with no barrier to using the foundry, you can create unlimited accounts.
True. But there are multiple ways to capture IP addresses and hold those accountable for flagrant repeat exploitation. These are the folks you HAVE to boot, because they do the most damage to the authenticity of the game and ruin it for honest folks.
True. But there are multiple ways to capture IP addresses and hold those accountable for flagrant repeat exploitation. These are the folks you HAVE to boot, because they do the most damage to the authenticity of the game and ruin it for honest folks.
You are right, but a quick google search will show anyone how to get around that. Remember, we are talking about people who already know how to exploit the system here, not computer illiterates.
You are right, but a quick google search will show anyone how to get around that. Remember, we are talking about people who already know how to exploit the system here, not computer illiterates.
I happen to know those ways... because of my years of IT experience in the real world. However, attempts need to be made to eliminate the majority of exploiters. Doing nothing is not a solution. After Cryptic's best efforts, it comes down to the review process. A good review process will always nuke their quests. Coming back 5, 6, 7 times will not change the rules in their favor
I happen to know those ways... because of my years of IT experience in the real world. However, attempts need to be made to eliminate the majority of exploiters. Doing nothing is not a solution. After Cryptic's best efforts, it comes down to the review process. A good review process will always nuke their quests. Coming back 5, 6, 7 times will not change the rules in their favor
I never said to do nothing. What I suggest is scaling the mission reward based on each mission's average completion time. And of course, they need to actually follow up on the reported missions, not simply ignore them.
The above solution would in fact get rid of those quests. Also, without a valuable reward for playing foundry missions, far less people will play them. Even the people who really like foundry missions. Why? 2 reasons:
1) MMOs always have some type of rare currency(or similar mechanic) which is required to get high level gear
2) Most people only have a limited amount of time to play.
Maybe that always thing is the problem. It does seem that people play games for rewards but maybe the rewards are just icing on the cake. I like cake, but I usually have to take off a bit of the icing because it's too sweet.
Maybe that always thing is the problem. It does seem that people play games for rewards but maybe the rewards are just icing on the cake. I like cake, but I usually have to take off a bit of the icing because it's too sweet.
What I mean is perhaps we just like to play...
The cake analogy is cute, but doesnt solve the issue I am talking about. You should be able to play foundry missions that you enjoy and get a valuable reward proportionate to the amount of time you spent. And the scaling rewards based on average completion time system would allow that without allowing exploit missions.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
True. But there are multiple ways to capture IP addresses and hold those accountable for flagrant repeat exploitation. These are the folks you HAVE to boot, because they do the most damage to the authenticity of the game and ruin it for honest folks.
There's a lot to respond to and little time to do so so for now I'm only going to talk technical limitations.
There is no reliable way to ban/limit any person's power based on any computer they are using.
Most people do not have Static IP Addresses and in fact they cost extra money to have. IP Addresses are leased by the modem from the ISP every time the modem is turned off and on although they do tend to remain the same since it will automatically try to renew your last IP rather than taking another. IP Addresses do provide some general information but companies could ban an IP address for Rule Breaker A and end up 2 weeks later perm banning a new player who has never even went to the website before.
IP Addresses are by far the worst way to deal with tracing issues because it is so often changed even without consent. If a person wanted to dupe the system even if they had a static IP all they would have to do is use an internet proxy in order to mask their real IP Address. It's something a ten year old could do.
And like me I am sure you're saying it makes no sense to not has some definitive way of identifying each individual computer which is why computer manufacturers came up with the "MAC Address."
This was designed to be a sort of internet serial number sort of like a car's vin number but they became just as easily masked by various programs that it's also considered completely unviable. They are good to form private groups of "in crowds" sort of like a home networking system but they suffer the same lack of security that IP's do.
Sadly there is no way to ban any individual computer in a free to play game.
Long story short Andre, I truly wish it was possible to punish specific computers but it just doesn't work.
Long story short Andre, I truly wish it was possible to punish specific computers but it just doesn't work.
Not all exploiters are smart, and many arent very patient. They want instant gratification. They love the thrill of beating the system. The review process I explained puts in a nag "feature" that would deter most offenders. If their content keeps getting taken down, in some cases before it ever sees the light of day... and punishes further attempts to profit, that's a serious handicap that might not be worth their time.
My argument is if you do not stack the deck against exploiters, they will ruin the game for the masses. There is massive cheating in games like these... a company that takes a stand against cheaters will have the support of many, and keep the honest payin and playin.
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That's not at all his point. I gave you the negatives in my post. You may not agree, but you are only one opinion. Many others will feel cheated, and with good reason.
These three are all off topic. They do not relate to my OP, or to what ambisinisterr has said.
You DDO history doesn't really matter to this discussion. The fact your DDO guild raided and you didnt is completely off topic.
In a nutshell if YOU don't feel cheated, that's cool. However, many more will feel cheated. This is why exploitation can not be allowed, and game balance must be sought.
A fair game is a game that each person has the same chance to win. The same rules apply to everyone, and there's a penalty to those who cheat. If cards are stacked in certain peoples' favor, it is not a fair game. There are a good number of folks that wont play games stacked against them. This results in loss revenue to Cryptic. Therefore, its in Cryptic's best interests to set their rules in stone EARLY, and enforce them.
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So, does anyone else have any ideas on potential exploits and how to address them?
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I fully respect that viewpoint and it is very accurate to what I have seen in games, the comments I have seen strewn about STO and my fears towards NW.
Again I don't mind short quests, they serve their purpose.
One of my favorite DDO quests was actually Kobold Assault. I had a blast continuously going near death and screaming and running in circles "Get it away from me!" towards friends on skype.
Like all other short content after the sixth time or so I was fairly burnt out on it...but it was fun for a time.
My preferred quests were the ones such as "The Pit" which was histerical in it's own right when my friend tried to go down to ladder...fell...manged to survive with NO hit points....and it must have taken him a good 2 minutes to climb up that ladder again...
Was it as rewarding as Kobold Assault? No. But it was still a good reward for the time and the minimal issues I had with it.
I strive to seek compromise. However to me, in this case, compromise is balancing the game to "adequately reward everybody for their time and effort."
I expect everybody to be duly rewarded. Nothing more. Nothing less.
The only thing I am truly worried about is that rewards will not have a wide enough range of variables when "difficulty" is derived.
For instance the difficulty of a quest shouldn't be considered with 'creep count' alone. It should consider how much dialogue is in the quest, how much time the average player takes to complete it, the rating of the quest and many more. The more variables the better.
I am sure some of you may be very "no to player power" but I do believe Foundry Reviewers should be able to suggest to cryptic, in their reviews, a higher or lower reward scale for particular content.
Same here with Kobold Assault on Elite (*whimper*)
The question is, can we mostly come to a consensus what "compromise" is in regards to what "balance" is?
Tile shal tell, and I look forward to all of us and many more playtesting the Foundry to achieve this consensus.
Just so we're clear, I'm not talking about "short quests", but actual exploits. A short mission like "hey, this guy stole my thing, please go kill him and get it back" where you only kill 1 guy is a short quest. But a mission where you simply click on an object and thats it is an exploit. If you are referring to exploit missions, what purpose do you mean they serve?
See, "go tap this control panel" for example of "too short" quest concerns.
Here it is again for you truthseeker and others.
Yep, it's all good
And I agree fully as well.
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Let me summarize. Short quests with purpose are fine. One click quests are most likely an exploit. The panels need the authority to distinguish between a short quest that has purpose and an outright exploit. We need a set of rules to follow and we need to be able to trust the review process.
The current process has failed to stop some missions in STO, as these insta-win exploits are allowed to pass thru unchallenged. I believe my two panel/two review/one dev plan will offer a far better process than the one currently in place.
Naturally we need Cryptic to step up and state what is not allowed, first.
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*Fully supporting that last part (while open to the review specifics,) and stepping back today to allow others to state their feedback on this. *
Thank you Truth... but don't step back too far... I just want to get as many ideas as we can discussed, for the betterment of the Foundry. As always, your input is valued.
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Actually, I have no problem with that and would support it.
The thing with the hit this console and you are done is the reward CRYPTIC offered for doing X number of Foundry quests. That quest could just have easily been click 10 consoles and have a lot of lore thrown at you that you do not have to read and recall and it would still be just as bad from some peoples viewpoint. The problem is not the quest itself = it is the fact that Cryptic put a mechanic in that made the quest worth more than it is. The simple solution to NW is to NOT have that mechanic and you do not have to worry about the quests themselves.
Until they have the tech in place to lock monty haul/xp feast quests to the quest/campaign they are not going to allow players to adjust items/loot/xp. Therefore the foundry does not have an issue.
The cream will rise to the top.
The Pit is a xp farming quest, jump in, hammer it out, rinse and repeat.
My favorite DDO quests are: Gwylan's Stand and Stormcleave. Both were well done, mixed out door and indoor environments and seemed to be well thought out.
My least favorite quest in DDO is Sleeping Dust. There is no good reason to let a spider live.
LOL!
Fixed that for ya
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and again, 1 click quests do not matter. The issue in STO is not the quest it is the REWARD that Cryptic put in place for playing X number of daily foundry quests. The fix is a simple one: Do not put that mechanic into NW!
Who cares if someone goes into a click this panel and get 5 xp quest with 3 cp loot (as that is probably what you would get)? It only becomes an issue when Cryptic has a do x of these for this loot you really need! Then you will see ALL kinds of short quests show up. Kill 1 kobald and done, Read 1 book, etc. because quite frankly people will find the path of least resistance to accomplish a goal.
Without that mechanic, the cream will rise and the foundry will produce great content. With that mechanic, you will NEVER get rid of those quests.
Can someone describe this STO mechanic, want to make sure I have it down pat. The way I understand it is lets say you do 3 quests, you get a reward, like a story arc in DDO which gives a named item, do I have it wrong?
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It is a daily quest thing. IF you do 3 foundry quests you get 1400 dilithium ore. D.O. is used to purchase, characters, ships, upgrades, etc. so it VERY sought after. By offering 1400 per daily 3 quests it put in place a mechanic to farm short quests to get er done so to speak.
That is what is wrong with the click one console quest. It is NOT the quest itself - it is the reward Cryptic put in place for doing 3 foundry missions.
The fix - smaller reward or do not have it in place. An alternate - have a % chance to get D.O. for each end reward you get in a foundry quest.
So you see, it is not the quest that is the issue - it is the reward by Cryptic.
Ok well that's just asking to get exploited.
Now I understand why I hear so many say to get rid of the mechanic.
I can envision another way to go about it, where they can keep the mechanic in place. Check this:
How about limiting the ore mechanic to only Foundry authors that score over a certain community satisfaction level? Authors that have had a quest removed because it was deemed an exploit by Cryptic employee can no longer offer the ore mechanic to quest-goers. Therefore it blackballs not only the quest deemed an exploit, but severely limits that author from creating future exploits.
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Farmers will vote high for 'exploitive' solutions. It is the mechanic that is the issue. But that would work for a while I guess.
See that is what I am trying to get at: There is nothing wrong with the foundry. IT works and it works fine. The 1 console quest does NOT give an unfair reward. Cryptic does for doing 3 of them.
Until the tech is in for contained modules/campaigns we will not have the ability to alter loot tables or xp tables, etc. so the foundry is safe from 'explotive' quests. SURE you can make a click this for reward quest - but it will give you <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> xp compared to a real one. There is no reason to worry about cheat quests, <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> quests will give <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> xp/loot and without an outside mechanic to farm them - die.
So if someone wants to make a Monty Haul/XP fest - let em - they will be self contained. Me, I will probably work on recreating Greyhawk or something. Hmmmm . . . Greyhawk with something like the spell plague (because I actually do like that concept). . .
Yes, that is a simple fix. But it also punishes people who enjoy the foundry. Why shouldnt those people be able to play missions they enjoy AND get a valuable reward for it? The answer is, they should. And the solution to the exploit we're discussing is to make the mission rewards scale based on each individual mission's average completion time. That means if you create a quickie mission you get next to nothing.
The above solution would in fact get rid of those quests. Also, without a valuable reward for playing foundry missions, far less people will play them. Even the people who really like foundry missions. Why? 2 reasons:
1) MMOs always have some type of rare currency(or similar mechanic) which is required to get high level gear
2) Most people only have a limited amount of time to play.
So lets say you have a guy who truly enjoys foundry missions, but also truly wants to get his epic gear. If that guy only has 1 hour to play, he now has to choose between doing a mission he enjoys but rewards nothing valuable, or doing the missions he doesnt enjoy as much but will help him get the epic gear.
I say it shouldnt have to be one or the other. Foundry missions should have rewards that are actually valuable. And if they do what I suggested above about scaling rewards based on average time, you wont be able to exploit it.
Ahh, but using my solution, quests voted as an exploit by enough of the community would limit or eliminate that author the ability to author quests that allow the ore mechanic.
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The problem is, in a F2P game with no barrier to using the foundry, you can create unlimited accounts.
True. But there are multiple ways to capture IP addresses and hold those accountable for flagrant repeat exploitation. These are the folks you HAVE to boot, because they do the most damage to the authenticity of the game and ruin it for honest folks.
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You are right, but a quick google search will show anyone how to get around that. Remember, we are talking about people who already know how to exploit the system here, not computer illiterates.
I happen to know those ways... because of my years of IT experience in the real world. However, attempts need to be made to eliminate the majority of exploiters. Doing nothing is not a solution. After Cryptic's best efforts, it comes down to the review process. A good review process will always nuke their quests. Coming back 5, 6, 7 times will not change the rules in their favor
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I never said to do nothing. What I suggest is scaling the mission reward based on each mission's average completion time. And of course, they need to actually follow up on the reported missions, not simply ignore them.
Maybe that always thing is the problem. It does seem that people play games for rewards but maybe the rewards are just icing on the cake. I like cake, but I usually have to take off a bit of the icing because it's too sweet.
What I mean is perhaps we just like to play...
The cake analogy is cute, but doesnt solve the issue I am talking about. You should be able to play foundry missions that you enjoy and get a valuable reward proportionate to the amount of time you spent. And the scaling rewards based on average completion time system would allow that without allowing exploit missions.
There's a lot to respond to and little time to do so so for now I'm only going to talk technical limitations.
There is no reliable way to ban/limit any person's power based on any computer they are using.
Most people do not have Static IP Addresses and in fact they cost extra money to have. IP Addresses are leased by the modem from the ISP every time the modem is turned off and on although they do tend to remain the same since it will automatically try to renew your last IP rather than taking another. IP Addresses do provide some general information but companies could ban an IP address for Rule Breaker A and end up 2 weeks later perm banning a new player who has never even went to the website before.
IP Addresses are by far the worst way to deal with tracing issues because it is so often changed even without consent. If a person wanted to dupe the system even if they had a static IP all they would have to do is use an internet proxy in order to mask their real IP Address. It's something a ten year old could do.
And like me I am sure you're saying it makes no sense to not has some definitive way of identifying each individual computer which is why computer manufacturers came up with the "MAC Address."
This was designed to be a sort of internet serial number sort of like a car's vin number but they became just as easily masked by various programs that it's also considered completely unviable. They are good to form private groups of "in crowds" sort of like a home networking system but they suffer the same lack of security that IP's do.
Sadly there is no way to ban any individual computer in a free to play game.
Long story short Andre, I truly wish it was possible to punish specific computers but it just doesn't work.
Not all exploiters are smart, and many arent very patient. They want instant gratification. They love the thrill of beating the system. The review process I explained puts in a nag "feature" that would deter most offenders. If their content keeps getting taken down, in some cases before it ever sees the light of day... and punishes further attempts to profit, that's a serious handicap that might not be worth their time.
My argument is if you do not stack the deck against exploiters, they will ruin the game for the masses. There is massive cheating in games like these... a company that takes a stand against cheaters will have the support of many, and keep the honest payin and playin.
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