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aeroth001aeroth001 Member Posts: 420 Bounty Hunter
edited August 2012 in General Discussion (PC)
Will the creation of a new character will be like this ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=z-1_3VCEyG0#at=47
Post edited by aeroth001 on
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  • stormdrag0nstormdrag0n Member Posts: 3,222 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    aeroth001 wrote: »
    Will the creation of a new character will be like this ?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=z-1_3VCEyG0#at=47

    We honestly don't have a definitive answer yet...it very well could be, and from talking to folks who attended Gamescom and Gencon....they came away feeling like it would be a paragon path sort of thing.

    But who knows?
    Always Looking for mature laidback players/rpers for Dungeon Delves!
  • perdidurperdidur Member Posts: 67
    edited August 2012
    That would be great but I highly doubt it will be that involved. We must wait and hope.
  • aandrethegiantaandrethegiant Member Posts: 3,364 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    For me, this is a major fail if its going to be prefab characters. I'd expect that of Dragon's Lair... not from a 2013 licensed D&D MMO product.

    There's mass appeal, and then there's just bad game design. Sometimes I feel like they simply want to sell a kid-focused, generic, no frills MMO for the massive Steam MMO audience that simply carries a D&D tag. If that's true, I think the game will fail miserably.

    The recent commentary seems like they've decided on minimal customization of feats (maybe minute selection of paragons as well), but that's it. Picking your own stats and skills I expect will be off limits. At worst, I'm envisioning cookie-cutter builds where everyone is playing a few varieties of ready-to-play Cryptic robo-toons.

    Hence, it's still unimaginable to me that they will go this route, so I hold out faith.

    I think they need to open up a discussion on the forums about character creation as soon as possible.

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  • stormdrag0nstormdrag0n Member Posts: 3,222 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    At the end of the day, the big questions I have are:

    • Is the game going to be fun?
    • Will I be able to create complex adventures with a deep level of customization?
    • Can I have adventures with my friends beyond kill ten X?

    I have been playing D&D in one form or the other since 1976, I still DM a weekly campaign and am very active in the RPGA. If I want a purist D&D experience I will play the Pen and paper game, and if I want to take that purist experience online I have fantasy grounds.

    Everyone has their own opinion however I personally am not going to insult any demographic of player to make them feel somehow less than significant, especially younger players because they are the future; fact is I feel that it is extremely mean spirited to do so. D&D in my humble opinion belongs to the world not just the Grognards.

    I know that some players will expect more, but the great thing about that is they aren't required to participate, if the game meets my three requirements I have a feeling it will be very successful.
    Always Looking for mature laidback players/rpers for Dungeon Delves!
  • aeroth001aeroth001 Member Posts: 420 Bounty Hunter
    edited August 2012
    For me, this is a major fail if its going to be prefab characters. I'd expect that of Dragon's Lair... not from a 2013 licensed D&D MMO product.

    There's mass appeal, and then there's just bad game design. Sometimes I feel like they simply want to sell a kid-focused, generic, no frills MMO for the massive Steam MMO audience that simply carries a D&D tag. If that's true, I think the game will fail miserably.

    The recent commentary seems like they've decided on minimal customization of feats (maybe minute selection of paragons as well), but that's it. Picking your own stats and skills I expect will be off limits. At worst, I'm envisioning cookie-cutter builds where everyone is playing a few varieties of ready-to-play Cryptic robo-toons.

    Hence, it's still unimaginable to me that they will go this route, so I hold out faith.

    I think they need to open up a discussion on the forums about character creation as soon as possible.



    Not all know the d&d universe. They may be player new to the d&d so prefab builds will help new players allot.
  • aandrethegiantaandrethegiant Member Posts: 3,364 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    At the end of the day, the big questions I have are:

    • Is the game going to be fun?
    • Will I be able to create complex adventures with a deep level of customization?
    • Can I have adventures with my friends beyond kill ten X?

    I know that some players will expect more...

    Cardboard characters exploring complex adventures doesn't do it for me. I need to care about the character, to have any fun exploring.

    So to answer your happy short list:

    Is the game going to be fun?

    If characters and adventures are customizable, you bet!

    Will I be able to create complex adventures with a deep level of customization?

    If my only choice is to select the same pieces of cardboard as everyone else (cookie cutter build), will I be able to create or play complex adventures ? I don't see the point. No fun in playing someone else's toon.

    Can I have adventures with my friends beyond kill ten X?

    My friends are used to creating their own toons from scratch. So again, who cares about the adentures if I cant model the character to do what I want it to do?

    So if my character is going to be built by Cryptic, no thank you.

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  • aandrethegiantaandrethegiant Member Posts: 3,364 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    aeroth001 wrote: »
    Not all know the d&d universe. They may be player new to the d&d so prefab builds will help new players allot.

    Agreed. But there should be a choice. I don't mind if their are pre-generated toons to choose for those who would like to go a pre-determined route, in fact I highly recommend it, especially to those new to the game or those who just don't feel "ready" to build their own.

    But I want the ability to build my toons, my way, and to help others build toons that fit their playstyle. If the developers don't allow the option for us to select our own stats and other building/leveling options, then they took a shortcut that's unforgivable, in my eyes, for a D&D product.

    TYRS PALADIUM - A Premier Neverwinter Online Guild
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  • stormdrag0nstormdrag0n Member Posts: 3,222 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    /shrug As I said no one is forcing the game on anyone....each of us has to make our own decisions about whether to play or not, there are several MMO's that have no use for that are wildly successful, they do just dandy without little ol me.

    If I found a major deal breaker in Neverwinter and left, I'm sure the game would carry on just fine...so far that hasn't happened, though I know the whole character customization is important to some.
    Always Looking for mature laidback players/rpers for Dungeon Delves!
  • aandrethegiantaandrethegiant Member Posts: 3,364 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    I know the whole character customization is important to some.

    Exactly. Just like you enjoy the quest creation end of the spectrum, others hold their character(s) in just as high a regard. Some I'm sure will be looking for and calling for a robust character creation system, so that they can properly enjoy running the seemingly awesome, and potentially endless Foundry designed user content.

    TYRS PALADIUM - A Premier Neverwinter Online Guild
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  • stormdrag0nstormdrag0n Member Posts: 3,222 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    Exactly. Just like you enjoy the quest creation end of the spectrum, others hold their character(s) in just a high regard. Some I'm sure will be looking for and calling for a robust character creation system.

    Oh without a doubt, and yeah it is going to be a deal breaker to some....the question is will Cryptic care and change it or will they stick to their vision? (if indeed that is their vision) History isn't on the side of change, it isn't a deal breaker for me or anyone I have spoke with...who knows maybe they will find a happy medium?

    Still some of the hardcores are all or nothing kinda folks so it may not be worth compromising to Cryptic and generally threats of "I won't play if I don't get X" are empty ones.

    It will be interesting to see how it develops.
    Always Looking for mature laidback players/rpers for Dungeon Delves!
  • henzaihenzai Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Silverstars Posts: 154
    edited August 2012
    Didn't Champions Online have total character freedom before they went f2p? I know that they have cake cutter classes now with a special slot where you can make your own, from scratch. I hope that that will come to us as well. If it isn't in the game at launch I won't spill no tears, since there might not be enough powers for all classes that you really can make a functional character outside of the prechoosen powers of the ready made builds. But if they don't introduce that option when the powers start piling up (i assume they will keep adding builds for the start classes as well as new classes and builds for theese) I'll be disappointed and might, MIGHT, find it a deal breaker. But then again the feat system and paragon paths might be deep enough that you can make the character your own with just those tools, only time will tell.
  • aeroth001aeroth001 Member Posts: 420 Bounty Hunter
    edited August 2012
    excelent character building,good pvp and the d&d lore => win
  • aandrethegiantaandrethegiant Member Posts: 3,364 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    Still some of the hardcores are all or nothing kinda folks so it may not be worth compromising to Cryptic and generally threats of "I won't play if I don't get X" are empty ones.

    That's not true. I believe most of the people asking for this game to stay as true to D&D as possible/reasonable, will be those that are actually quite flexible... and know full well the game isnt going to be pnp.

    Most will have probably played their fair share of rpgs and mmos, and know what they want. So its a mistake to label all people who want Cryptic to fashion Neverwinter as closely after D&D as possible, as some kind of "purist" or "hardcore". I mean, if they were that hardcore or pure, and unwilling to give an inch, they wouldnt be playing a computerized version of D&D in the first place, and they certainly wouldnt be here in this forum getting siked to play this game.

    On the contrary, I think most folks who've played pnp D&D that choose to play Neverwinter will just want it to feel close enough to their past d&d experience as possible, so they they can have fun and explore old worlds with new technologies :)

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  • aandrethegiantaandrethegiant Member Posts: 3,364 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    By the way, I think its great that we are finally getting into the groove, discussing the type of game we'd like to see... I expect each wish list to be at least a bit different.

    But as this OP is labeled, the talk around town will certainly start to become more about character creation/leveling... as this has been largely omitted since the very beginning.

    The Foundry is so evolutionary, it's probably best defined as revolutionary. Its really a true first. But the game can't stop there. Like all things D&D, the player starts it all at character creation.

    TYRS PALADIUM - A Premier Neverwinter Online Guild
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  • stormdrag0nstormdrag0n Member Posts: 3,222 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    That's not true. I believe most of the people asking for this game to stay as true to D&D as possible/reasonable, will be those that are actually quite flexible... and know full well the game isnt going to be pnp.

    Dunno I see people on this forum saying that unless they get the character builder they want they won't play, I have talked to folks who are pretty upset about it having action combat...that doesn't seem that flexible to me honestly.

    Personally I'm not going to say if the game doesn't have X I'll walk, I'll see how fun the game is knowing that other peoples mileage may vary.
    Always Looking for mature laidback players/rpers for Dungeon Delves!
  • aandrethegiantaandrethegiant Member Posts: 3,364 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    Dunno I see people on this forum saying that unless they get the character builder they want they won't play

    Well let's be honest, the lack of a custom character creation process would be a pretty big omission. Heck it was included in each Gold Box SSI game since the later 80s, people just consider it an integral part of the experience. It will no doubt be a make or break the game for some (and not just for what you would call hardcores).

    Could you imagine if Gary Gygax and Dave Arnesson's idea of D&D at the start was to omit a person from creating his own character? Just a few prefab toons they expected everyone to play? It just goes against the grain of the game the masters created, and will probably take a great deal of fun out of this game for many.

    So truly, I hope Cryptic has a good solution. My call is for both custom and prebuilt toons, with stats/skills/feats etc that actually alter the game mechanics accordingly. Really good in game description would go a long way to eliminating confusion and open up practically millions of exciting ways to build your character.

    TYRS PALADIUM - A Premier Neverwinter Online Guild
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  • stormdrag0nstormdrag0n Member Posts: 3,222 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    Well let's be honest, the lack of a custom character creation process would be a pretty big omission. Heck it was included in each Gold Box SSI game since the later 80s, people just consider it an integral part of the experience. It will no doubt be a make or break the game for some (and not just for what you would call hardcores).

    Could you imagine if Gary Gygax and Dave Arnesson's idea of D&D at the start was to omit a person from creating his own character? Just a few prefab toons they expected everyone to play? It just goes against the grain of the game the masters created, and will probably take a great deal of fun out of this game for many.

    So truly, I hope Cryptic has a good solution. My call is for both custom and prebuilt toons, with stats/skills/feats etc that actually alter the game mechanics accordingly. Really good in game description would go a long way to eliminating confusion and open up practically millions of exciting ways to build your character.

    Honestly in talking with folks at my local game shop and video game shop the only people that have a huge problem with it are min/maxers...your area may be different

    But, yeah as I said I think a happy medium would be best give folks the choice but don't gimp them regardless of which way they choose to build their character, but it isn't my call all I know if the game is fun and polished I will be able to over look the custom character creator as long as I have Cryptics customization in other areas.

    There are those that aren't as forgiving as I am and will have to make that call when the time comes, but I honestly don't see that many heading towards the door over it no matter what they say now.
    Always Looking for mature laidback players/rpers for Dungeon Delves!
  • aandrethegiantaandrethegiant Member Posts: 3,364 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    Honestly in talking with folks at my local game shop and video game shop the only people that have a huge problem with it are min/maxers...your area may be different

    Yeah, ok I'll talk talk to folks on my end... but I don't think it'll be pretty. So lets see I'll mention, 4e- pre-established, non customizable toons - pvp in at launch.....

    ok bringing up 4e.. they're getting nervous... ok.. ok.. getting to the part about not being able to choose their own stats for their own toons.. ohh no... that wasnt a good idea.. hold on .. hard to talk while we're runnninngggggggg....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zRT-LvJUuQ


    heh heh heh

    TYRS PALADIUM - A Premier Neverwinter Online Guild
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  • stormdrag0nstormdrag0n Member Posts: 3,222 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    Yeah, ok I'll talk talk to folks on my end... but I don't think it'll be pretty. So lets see I'll mention, 4e- per-established, non customizable toons - pvp in at launch.....

    ok bringing up 4e.. they're getting nervous... ok.. ok.. getting to the part about not being able to choose their own stats for their own toons.. ohh no... that wasnt a good idea.. hold on .. hard to talk while we're runnninngggggggg....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zRT-LvJUuQ


    heh heh heh

    Wow....so that's where those three guys at my local shop that use to scream at the kids about Dungeon Command went.... b:chuckle
    Always Looking for mature laidback players/rpers for Dungeon Delves!
  • razorrxgdbrazorrxgdb Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    4e is still customizable. You can choose your powers, specializations ( ie trickster or brute) and the like.

    I can not stress enough how important it is to at least give some kind of impression that it is -my- character and not trickster rogue #3248.

    One thing I noticed in the faces on the foundry demo was al, tiefling males had horned chins. There is official art where the males do not have that feature. I hope we can have some no chin horn base forms for the male tieflings.

    I hope for as much customization options as possible. Either via crafting to alter armor and weapon looks or maybe MT item/crafting device to allow it. Full character model customization like CO and STO. And full class customization in line with the core rules that the game is inspired by.
  • ausdoerrtausdoerrt Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    henzai wrote: »
    I can not stress enough how important it is to at least give some kind of impression that it is -my- character and not trickster rogue #3248.

    Pretty much this. I don't mind/care if they leave the preset builds in, many an MMO have that feature for beginning players. BUT, there needs to be a fully customizable option, preferably at launch, or at least as a core feature added in the first few months.
    One thing I noticed in the faces on the foundry demo was al, tiefling males had horned chins. There is official art where the males do not have that feature. I hope we can have some no chin horn base forms for the male tieflings.

    You're only gonna see your char from the back anyway b:laugh
  • lyfebanelyfebane Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 312 Bounty Hunter
    edited August 2012
    Well I would expect character look customisation to be as in depth as CO or STO. And it is still possible like CO that they have a fully customisable option, probably pick a role then go from there kinda of thing. Or they might just have alot of classes already line up so do not need that option. For instance if you had all the roles a type of class could play, all that would mean was the first part of setting up already done, and anything given for thoose classes would have been given if you had choosen that combination anyway. Then its choose feats and powers as you would normally?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] I am not evil, I am just cursed.
  • gillrmngillrmn Member Posts: 7,800 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    Regarding character customization(on looks and all) I remember cryptic dev saying somewhere that ofcourse they will have customization as it is cryptic. Otherwise the fans will eat them up.

    So character customization in regard to looks should be there.

    More into character customization are backgrounds - something that DDO couldn't implement. It is sad that complete customization of character was not included, but it is good to know that they did consider it.

    I wouldn't write-off multiclassing yet. I hope they include multiclassing when they launch bard (they would launch bard, right?). Because in 4e, multiclassng is one of bard's power/plus point.

    Hybrid doesn't have to be at launch. Once an ecosystem for the game is established, adding two different classes can be experimented. But I hope that they have not completely written it off and that hybrid/multiclassing is still in their list.
  • deadarmoured87deadarmoured87 Member Posts: 65
    edited August 2012
    I don't get the deal with saying they are "prefabs" with no customisation.

    Wrote this in another thread, but thought it was appropriate to link here
    (information that I have deciphered from looking at demos):
    -Multiple types of the class eg: Guardian, 2hander etc.
    -Roughly 32-38 spells that are unlocked automatically as you level (Diablo 3 style)
    -Feats (Most likely a WOW style talent tree, as you gain feat "points")
    -Multiple Paragon paths

    Considering you can only equip 7 powers and 2 utilities at a time, that makes for quite a lot of variantion.

    You choose the class for the role, the powers you use, the speciality, the path, the looks, the history and the name.

    I can't see how that can be considered a "prefab"; the game doesn't choose for you.
  • ausdoerrtausdoerrt Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    -Roughly 32-38 spells that are unlocked automatically as you level (Diablo 3 style)

    To venture a guess, this is what many people dislike. I know I do. I'd rather have power selection that encourages specialization and difficult trade-offs, rather than "hey, you can do EVERYTHING in one class".

    Also, didn't someone say you don't get to assign basic char stats? Not sure if this one is true.

    All in all, not very DnDish in any shape or form.
  • deadarmoured87deadarmoured87 Member Posts: 65
    edited August 2012
    ausdoerrt wrote: »
    To venture a guess, this is what many people dislike. I know I do. I'd rather have power selection that encourages specialization and difficult trade-offs, rather than "hey, you can do EVERYTHING in one class".

    Also, didn't someone say you don't get to assign basic char stats? Not sure if this one is true.

    All in all, not very DnDish in any shape or form.

    I'm not sure how I feel about it; in essence it's the same as in WOW- Start with a limited selection, gradually grow until you have a wide and varied array of powers to choose from.

    I think if you could pick what powers you wanted at the start, then there wouldn't be much incentive to earn new ones (as you can only have 9 equipped). Also, the feat menu and paragon paths I'm pretty sure will make some of your abilities better than others (specialisation).

    On a side note- because you can only have 7 powers, 2 utilities equipped at a time (need to rest at a fire to change), I think that is where the difficulty in choosing/trade-offs will occur.
  • lyfebanelyfebane Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 312 Bounty Hunter
    edited August 2012
    It is uncertain about starting start , all that was seen was a premade. It might be you can change them abit, I would have thought base stats then + points to improve would be most likely.

    I might be wrong, but i also go the impression you can improve powers seperately. I would assume that you will not be able to improve all powers to max. So though you will be able to use all powers you get, you should be better at some than others.
    And as you say feats and paragon you take will also affect this. So you will build on the powers you have improved.

    Whether you can change which powers you have improved easily would be the question. as they seem to want you to be able to change powers fairly easily least in a city somewhere. Were feats changable too?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] I am not evil, I am just cursed.
  • stormdrag0nstormdrag0n Member Posts: 3,222 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    I don't get the deal with saying they are "prefabs" with no customisation.

    Wrote this in another thread, but thought it was appropriate to link here
    (information that I have deciphered from looking at demos):



    You choose the class for the role, the powers you use, the speciality, the path, the looks, the history and the name.

    I can't see how that can be considered a "prefab"; the game doesn't choose for you.

    Oh I agree and those are great points; the thing is many Min/Maxers like my friend who still plays DDO is adamant about being able to roll your character...but what if each class already started out with min/max stats? I mean I don't think it's that special when any schmo can stroll over to DDO wiki or TTH and find the "right" build...nothing is really learned and when you think of it, that is just as cookie cutter.

    I mean the only thing you gain is the ability to tell someone else their build is "wrong" I think we have quiet enough of that honestly.
    Always Looking for mature laidback players/rpers for Dungeon Delves!
  • aandrethegiantaandrethegiant Member Posts: 3,364 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    the thing is many Min/Maxers like my friend who still plays DDO is adamant about being able to roll your character...but what if each class already started out with min/max stats? I mean I don't think it's that special when any schmo can stroll over to DDO wiki or TTH and find the "right" build...nothing is really learned and when you think of it, that is just as cookie cutter.

    I mean the only thing you gain is the ability to tell someone else their build is "wrong" I think we have quiet enough of that honestly.

    Now just wait a second. That's 10 pounds of <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> in a five lb bag and you know it.

    Why are you painting those who role min/max builds and DDO together who goes to DDOWiki for a build as some kind of "norm" in DDO!? That's not at all the way it works.

    I've created or assisted in as many builds for folks as anyone in DDO, literally thousands over 6+ years. In all that time, I've never either recommended or have heard a single solitary person state they go to the DDOwiki to "find the right build." They might go there to check a game mechanic or quest/raid tips. That's what its used for.

    As far as min/maxed builders, I've worked with many of them, and many more times than not, ended the conversation with a build that in fact would not be considered a min max build. There is simply an urge at the end game in elitist/zerg circles to role the same toon as the person you are playing with. Once they learn how to prioritize their stats/skills/feats/enhancements based off of how they play the toon, in combination with taking into account the game mechanics and gear, they often switch a few things around and end up with a better toon.

    I'll argue it from a different point. For those who spread out too thin, in effect not specializing in anything, or maybe one thing, with today's epic destinies can turn that toon right around and become that toon they wanted from Day One.

    I could write a book on this subject, but its suffice for me to say that DDOs character customization allowed the builder to create and level in many completely different ways. They looked and played totally different. That's an important factor for some.

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  • stormdrag0nstormdrag0n Member Posts: 3,222 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    Now just wait a second. That's 10 pounds of <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> in a five lb bag and you know it.


    As non-confrontational as ever I see.
    Why are you painting those who role min/max builds and DDO together who goes to DDOWiki for a build as some kind of "norm" in DDO!? That's not at all the way it works.

    .

    Because that has been my experience...and thanks for letting others have an opinion, Oh wait.... should I have waited for you to edit out the more snarky insulting comments like you have been doing the past couple days?

    /eyeroll.
    Always Looking for mature laidback players/rpers for Dungeon Delves!
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