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How will Magic: Legends shutdown affect Neverwinter?

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  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User
    edited July 8
    greywynd said:

    Only Cryptic has the numbers on the number of players. Steam only shows a selection of the player-base.

    steam has nothing to do with xbox. which I was clearly talking about. the numbers would be very different on pc. I don' thave a player count for xbox but it isn't very high. it's observable.

    you don't need an exact player count to look around and say are there enough people playing this game to be putting 20k a month into this game for just a small portion of the over all zen they must be receiving over all. (considering what a small fraction of people are buying zen to dump back into the exchange.)

    so do you think that many people are buying zen still?
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,462 Arc User
    edited July 8
    greywynd said:

    micky1p00 said:

    Yes, but I don't see the relevance. You don't need to move it. As long as the company exercised its ability to increase the Database Zen count without a matching real money income, it is in fact injecting. What is the path to do so is less important. If tomorrow they decide that each Dev, or like in your example, CO platinum (or how they called) get 10mil Zen per month, then they will be injecting (10m x players) to the game because there is no matching income dollars for that Zen

    But there is no proof they inject ZEN into Neverwinter beyond the conspiracy theorists.
    What proof do you want? I just gave some examples that are not disputed.
    micky1p00 said:


    We know for a fact that they do add ZEN to the game, in perhaps negligible quantity, but indeed they do.
    Every Dev gets a monthly allowance of ZEN. There were various promotions that give ZEN and Magic was seeded.

    Feel free to confirm with any Dev / CM that they get Zen monthly.

    But if your reply was to Tiberious and there is meaningful injection, then my opinion, there is not.
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,462 Arc User
    edited July 8
    greywynd said:

    Only Cryptic has the numbers on the number of players. Steam only shows a selection of the player-base.

    And that's why we can't say anything about the absolute numbers. But if the subset is not behaviorally different we can apply the trends and relative (percent) rise and fall of the population.

    And yes, Zen is also not an indicator of player base or payments since people use Zen shop items to convert to AD.
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,462 Arc User
    edited July 8

    greywynd said:

    micky1p00 said:

    Yes, but I don't see the relevance. You don't need to move it. As long as the company exercised its ability to increase the Database Zen count without a matching real money income, it is in fact injecting. What is the path to do so is less important. If tomorrow they decide that each Dev, or like in your example, CO platinum (or how they called) get 10mil Zen per month, then they will be injecting (10m x players) to the game because there is no matching income dollars for that Zen

    But there is no proof they inject ZEN into Neverwinter beyond the conspiracy theorists.
    no proof they're doing it now but It clearly happened when it was introduced on ps4.

    there is no way to know if they're adding or not. I tend to think they are because I find it highly unlikely so many people are still buying zen and then converting instead of using it. AD is easy to come by. 20 million a month or so on xbox. I find that pushes the strands of reality. that's what 20k a month from users on xbox? and that's the percentage who would buy zen and turn around and convert it to ad.. instead of just straight up buying whatever it was that convinced them to make that stupid purchase in the first place. that's like pigs flying.
    20k is nothing. They are probably making much more, otherwise it's not economically viable to keep it running.
    (Though again, most players probably using Zen items to convert)
  • hotfrostwormhotfrostworm Member Posts: 338 Arc User
    How long does it take the seagull to move the beach one grain of sand at a time? Can a man move the beach any faster with a handful of sand?

    I seriously doubt they allow their employees to alter the ZAX. Even if they do get free Zen added to their personal account each month, do you think they would be crazy enough to toss it all into the ZAX? I wonder how much of their AD they throw in the ZAX? Do you know for a fact they don't buy from the zen store and toss items in there to sell for AD, super inflating the market, and making the backlog even bigger?

    I would love to ask any Cryptic employee, however I imagine they are burning their free time getting resumes ready before the next big lay off occurs. I wouldn't expect an answer from anyone, they wouldn't expect you to believe them, if they told you the truth.
  • hadestemplar#9918 hadestemplar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 970 Arc User
    edited July 8



    Thank you. This was the main question I had when I first started this thread. It is always sad when people get laid off through no fault of their own - I've been there, done that - it sucks emotionally and financially. I do not mean to minimize the human cost of this corporate decision.

    But as a player (purely selfishly), my main question is - does the closure of MtG mean PW finally get the message that their default "F2P" model, which both MtG and NW follow, has finally run its course?

    Will losing out on the obvious investments made into that tired model in MtG open up the eyes of the bean counters at PW to allow Cryptic to change that model, and perhaps modify NW into something better in order to compete in a fiercely competitive marketplace?

    Or, as others have noted, will PW and Cryptic refuse to change, leading to the playerbase continuing to dwindle as brand spanking new MMORPGs (with BIG money - Amazon sized money) hit the market later this year?
    Are you suggesting that Pay2Play would be better model for Neverwinter??

    And as for this Amazon new game, it's highly overhyped one.. Same can be said about Ashes of Creation..
    ========================================================================
    “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
    Gustave Le Bon.

    ==================================================
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User
    edited July 8
    micky1p00 said:

    greywynd said:

    micky1p00 said:

    Yes, but I don't see the relevance. You don't need to move it. As long as the company exercised its ability to increase the Database Zen count without a matching real money income, it is in fact injecting. What is the path to do so is less important. If tomorrow they decide that each Dev, or like in your example, CO platinum (or how they called) get 10mil Zen per month, then they will be injecting (10m x players) to the game because there is no matching income dollars for that Zen

    But there is no proof they inject ZEN into Neverwinter beyond the conspiracy theorists.
    no proof they're doing it now but It clearly happened when it was introduced on ps4.

    there is no way to know if they're adding or not. I tend to think they are because I find it highly unlikely so many people are still buying zen and then converting instead of using it. AD is easy to come by. 20 million a month or so on xbox. I find that pushes the strands of reality. that's what 20k a month from users on xbox? and that's the percentage who would buy zen and turn around and convert it to ad.. instead of just straight up buying whatever it was that convinced them to make that stupid purchase in the first place. that's like pigs flying.
    20k is nothing. They are probably making much more, otherwise it's not economically viable to keep it running.
    (Though again, most players probably using Zen items to convert)

    20k is the amount of zen that would have to be bought with the sole intention of converting it to ad. just to keep the zax moving the way it is moving now (on xbox, different for pc by far). but most people who buy zen buy it because they want vip or they want a particular pack. the amount over will be small. they might convert that. but for the most part ad is super easy to come across in this game.

    I just find it really unlikely anyone is paying that much money for ad considering how few people I see in the game. there are some new comers..but enough to support 20k USD on one platform for nothing but ad conversion.

    there is almost no chatter in pe. barely anyone in zone. not as many zones as there used to be.... I'd buy they're getting 20k a month or more but for things in the zen store.
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User

    How long does it take the seagull to move the beach one grain of sand at a time? Can a man move the beach any faster with a handful of sand?

    I seriously doubt they allow their employees to alter the ZAX. Even if they do get free Zen added to their personal account each month, do you think they would be crazy enough to toss it all into the ZAX? I wonder how much of their AD they throw in the ZAX? Do you know for a fact they don't buy from the zen store and toss items in there to sell for AD, super inflating the market, and making the backlog even bigger?

    I would love to ask any Cryptic employee, however I imagine they are burning their free time getting resumes ready before the next big lay off occurs. I wouldn't expect an answer from anyone, they wouldn't expect you to believe them, if they told you the truth.

    they already did superinflate the market with the bonding stones and comp experience buy outs. the market on console went from barely backlogged/not backlogged to a month wait in a few hours. what difference would it make if they put zen on the other side?
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,462 Arc User

    micky1p00 said:

    greywynd said:

    micky1p00 said:

    Yes, but I don't see the relevance. You don't need to move it. As long as the company exercised its ability to increase the Database Zen count without a matching real money income, it is in fact injecting. What is the path to do so is less important. If tomorrow they decide that each Dev, or like in your example, CO platinum (or how they called) get 10mil Zen per month, then they will be injecting (10m x players) to the game because there is no matching income dollars for that Zen

    But there is no proof they inject ZEN into Neverwinter beyond the conspiracy theorists.
    no proof they're doing it now but It clearly happened when it was introduced on ps4.

    there is no way to know if they're adding or not. I tend to think they are because I find it highly unlikely so many people are still buying zen and then converting instead of using it. AD is easy to come by. 20 million a month or so on xbox. I find that pushes the strands of reality. that's what 20k a month from users on xbox? and that's the percentage who would buy zen and turn around and convert it to ad.. instead of just straight up buying whatever it was that convinced them to make that stupid purchase in the first place. that's like pigs flying.
    20k is nothing. They are probably making much more, otherwise it's not economically viable to keep it running.
    (Though again, most players probably using Zen items to convert)

    20k is the amount of zen that would have to be bought with the sole intention of converting it to ad. just to keep the zax moving the way it is moving now. but most people who buy zen buy it because they want vip or they want a particular pack. the amount over will be small. they might convert that. but for the most part ad is super easy to come across in this game.

    I just find it really unlikely anyone is paying that much money for ad considering how few people I see in the game. there are some new comers..but enough to support 20k USD on one platform for nothing but ad conversion.

    there is almost no chatter in pe. barely anyone in zone. not as many zones as there used to be.... I'd buy they're getting 20k a month or more but for things in the zen store.
    I don't think that's much at all. People do convert, left overs from purchases of items, or don't want to bother with waiting for the AH turnover, or just don't know better.

    Don't forget that the whole point of using Zen is to speed up things, and for some people with disposable income this is the casual entertainment and not some long term headache. "What was that mount I wanted? Ah, it's 3mil on AH, lets add some $ and get it".

    ----

    There is a difference between their ability to insert Zen, them doing so in some minor quantities (those are things that we do know), to the concept that the Zax has significant amount injected.

    The main counter argument will be simple, if you already inject, then keep it under the cap. Having it over the cap reinforces the backlog by encouraging people to use Zen items via AH, convert and reinvest, increasing the backlog.

    As long as there is no backlog, that will not work, and the loop will break.
  • tchefi#6735 tchefi Member Posts: 309 Arc User
    edited July 8


    I seriously doubt they allow their employees to alter the ZAX.

    Unsure if it can be "labeled" as altering the Zax, but i'm personnaly sure they "create" Zens time to time as i have directely experienced it.

    I have a very unique and recurring bug on my main toon (none of the others is affected) happening each year during the mascarade. During my 3rd mascarade (2019), i contacted the support about it. After 6 days, 12 messages [7 from them], 11 screenshots [some were requested by the support], and various manual interventions on my account, they were unable to fix or by-pass it, so I just told them it wasn't a big deal, i could do the event normally on other characters, it wasn't necessary to persevere further.
    They closed the case with a last message saying they credited my account with 500 zens as a compensation for the issue.
    Quite unexpected, but I guess be polite, try to help, do not demand/require anything and do not act as if it was the end of the world, had encouraged a commercial/goodwill gesture.
    Obviously, I was tempted to try again in 2020 :P (but i ended up being honest, and just told them the bug was still there, give the ticket n° from last year, and specified to not give me any new compensation)
    I plan to message again the support this year during the mascarade about this bug, hoping to make it a running gag with the french GM ^^.

    So yeah, not all the Zens came from $$ : these 500 ones, at least, didn't.
    But did i use them on the Zax to get AD ? The mascarade being quite very close before the black friday, i let you guess ^^.
  • kreatyvekreatyve Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 10,522 Community Moderator
    edited July 8
    micky1p00 said:

    greywynd said:

    micky1p00 said:

    Yes, but I don't see the relevance. You don't need to move it. As long as the company exercised its ability to increase the Database Zen count without a matching real money income, it is in fact injecting. What is the path to do so is less important. If tomorrow they decide that each Dev, or like in your example, CO platinum (or how they called) get 10mil Zen per month, then they will be injecting (10m x players) to the game because there is no matching income dollars for that Zen

    But there is no proof they inject ZEN into Neverwinter beyond the conspiracy theorists.
    no proof they're doing it now but It clearly happened when it was introduced on ps4.

    there is no way to know if they're adding or not. I tend to think they are because I find it highly unlikely so many people are still buying zen and then converting instead of using it. AD is easy to come by. 20 million a month or so on xbox. I find that pushes the strands of reality. that's what 20k a month from users on xbox? and that's the percentage who would buy zen and turn around and convert it to ad.. instead of just straight up buying whatever it was that convinced them to make that stupid purchase in the first place. that's like pigs flying.
    20k is nothing. They are probably making much more, otherwise it's not economically viable to keep it running.
    (Though again, most players probably using Zen items to convert)
    Edit: Misunderstood context of what was said here. Carry on.
    My opinions are my own. I do not work for PWE or Cryptic. - Forum Rules - Protector's Enclave Discord - I play on Xbox
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  • kemnimtarkaskemnimtarkas Member Posts: 824 Arc User
    edited July 8



    Are you suggesting that Pay2Play would be better model for Neverwinter??

    And as for this Amazon new game, it's highly overhyped one.. Same can be said about Ashes of Creation..

    I'm not suggesting P2P per se - in it's current form I don't think PW and Cryptic could make a serious go of NW on a subscription model - this ain't no ESO or FFXIV. And saying the new games are 'overhyped' just means they have big marketing budgets.

    I asked the devs in the Previewshard threads about what the purpose of leveling is now, given that it seemed M21 had rendered all ancillary combat and other activities in leveling up a character to be moot - the goal was just to basically speed run to end game. To sum it up the devs response was 'yup, pretty much'.

    I think the current model in NW - push players to get into end game dungeon running, thinking that will open them up to crass manipulation (buy Zen to 'git gud' with artifacts, mount collars, companions, mounts and insignia) is a proven model for failure.

    It's not JUST an NW model, or Cryptic model - it's the PerfectWorld model for game design. PW has other studios, and it seems like they all follow this same manipulative design model.

    That is the lesson I hope they derive from the failure to launch of MtG. Evolve the design to something players perceive to be better, or fail to thrive.


    Post edited by kemnimtarkas on
  • blargskullblargskull Member Posts: 460 Arc User
    edited July 10
    @franciscoperola apparently we share more than starting this game during Tyranny of Dragons. The general consent here is many players want the game they fell in love with back, but the conditional details are in question. Back on page 2 of this thread, I said if they made a classic version where should they begin? The answer was none can agree on rewinding a classic version, I seriously doubt anyone can agree on what needs to be done to repair the current version. Soon this will just be tossed into the wasteland of failed attempts, we will witness the next mass exodus of current players for the new ones, they will arrive to learn the new game. Back when we started playing, Neverwinter was something I was willing to spend my cash on here. Now it is a mere shadow of that game. I think Mr. Black said it best, "People makes your game fun.".

    Cryptic has lost the fun, because they keep losing the people. Let's all go play Champions together.

    Just killing time...
  • jules#6770 jules Member Posts: 671 Arc User
    edited July 11

    Back when we started playing, Neverwinter was something I was willing to spend my cash on here.

    I think Cryptic/PWE got something wrong here, yeah. When I started playing POE (and POE has its own problems, alright, I know) I willingly spent money even tho I really didn't need to, but simply because I do not enjoy something without paying for it (I know, we "pay" for it in different ways aside of money, but still, thats how I do ftp in general).
    I do not want to pay to get ahead in game. I want to pay for enjoyment. In practise, I bought VIP for NW at the start with real money too, and used my ZAX AD for other things ingame.
    NW used to be different because it had a very different demographic than other MMOs, and I enjoyed that. The general talk of "why you should or shouldn't spend money" was about this: Spend if you enjoy, so Cryptic can continue making this game.
    Most people I played with realized that spending 4k+ hours enjoying something is worth spending money - no matter how much, that depends on each person individually.
    I don't think that the ftp idea is fundamentally wrong, but that a new core demographic comes with a different way to spend money, and that PWE counts on this.
    The way CW treated many players on here and on other platforms made me think that it is indeed intended to switch their core demographic to younger and differently influenced players and if necessary switch out their old playerbase for it. If that was part of the calculation, congratulations... now you gotta live with it =D
    - bye bye -
  • rockster#6227 rockster Member Posts: 797 Arc User

    Back when we started playing, Neverwinter was something I was willing to spend my cash on here.

    I think Cryptic/PWE got something wrong here, yeah. When I started playing POE (and POE has its own problems, alright, I know) I willingly spent money even tho I really didn't need to, but simply because I do not enjoy something without paying for it (I know, we "pay" for it in different ways aside of money, but still, thats how I do ftp in general).
    I do not want to pay to get ahead in game. I want to pay for enjoyment. In practise, I bought VIP for NW at the start with real money too, and used my ZAX AD for other things ingame.
    NW used to be different because it had a very different demographic than other MMOs, and I enjoyed that. The general talk of "why you should or shouldn't spend money" was about this: Spend if you enjoy, so Cryptic can continue making this game.
    Most people I played with realized that spending 4k+ hours enjoying something is worth spending money - no matter how much, that depends on each person individually.
    I don't think that the ftp idea is fundamentally wrong, but that a new core demographic comes with a different way to spend money, and that PWE counts on this.
    The way CW treated many players on here and on other platforms made me think that it is indeed intended to switch their core demographic to younger and differently influenced players and if necessary switch out their old playerbase for it. If that was part of the calculation, congratulations... now you gotta live with it =D
    Listening to some of the voice-overs in New sharandar (mobs), reading the text which goes along with it from memory seeing good spelled "gud", it's already kind of apparent what sort of playerbase age they are chasing or who they think they are appealing to.
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 6,223 Arc User



    Listening to some of the voice-overs in New sharandar (mobs), reading the text which goes along with it from memory seeing good spelled "gud", it's already kind of apparent what sort of playerbase age they are chasing or who they think they are appealing to.

    Or it's a reflection of the intelligence level of the programmers, thinking that is the proper spelling.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • blargskullblargskull Member Posts: 460 Arc User
    @jules#6770 and @mentinmindmaker if Cryptic thinks the tots have that kind of cash laying around... oh wait, I forgot the kids under 12 are jacking car radios and sell smack for it. :trollface:

    Seriously, I know you cannot trust anything I say, but I live in a nice apartment complex, I have on lease for 4 years. I have a six figure income. Even when I was out of work during the covid scare, I still managed to keep my internet and eat well too. I always put money away in a rainy day fund. I spent money mostly on PS4 games this year. omg, I just did a quick tally on my game purchases this year, it is over $3,500. That money could have been Cryptic's but I definitely would not have spent it on Neverwinter, more than often I buy stuff on Champions. That is still Cryptic's game for now. I am only one single white male in their vast universe, I wish them good luck squeezing the drug money from the instant gratification demographic. :lol:

    Just killing time...
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