test content
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc

How will Magic: Legends shutdown affect Neverwinter?

24

Comments

  • sagakaiyume#0847 sagakaiyume Member Posts: 342 Arc User
    Wish you luck on Champions' survival @blargskull , though you may have just given him an idea where to mess with next :p
  • arcanjo86arcanjo86 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,061 Arc User

    > @arcanjo86 said:
    > they are not making the game for us, they are making the game to attract investors

    Nothing that is currently happening (including Magic) is attractive to investors either.

    I find it very weird the main topic of conversation is about another game that is in the process of being shutdown.

    I just came in to check on my ZAX thread, still no movement there. It won't surprise me to be two or three weeks before we get another "Hey! I got some Zen!" posting in there.

    BTW I don't know when Cryptic got the new Neverwinter developer? I was out stalking my usual prey and I stumbled across this YouTube video of Neverwinter's Lead Game Designer, Salim Grant. At 4 minutes a viewer asked, "How can I make a game fun to play?" His answer should be pretty obvious... instead he says, "Fun is super subjective, but ... I don't know... you gotta ... (laughs) that's tough, whatever your design is you got to define what it is and break it down into its core components and execute on that."

    No offense Mr. Grant, you never had fun a day in your life... ever, have you? :trollface: This is man is the future that is soon to be Neverwinter. Best of luck to all of you!

    After watching the entire video, please Mr. Grant, stay away from Champions. Thank you and best wishes to you too.

    only numbers($$) attract investers, not player hype, players hype is a small addition, we have some neverwinter "whales" that buy the most expensive stuff they add to zen store, multiple buys, and put the possible sales items in ah, so free to play players buy them and then they have their income ad, they dont make ad through zax.

    a developer point of view of fun is different from player point of view,
  • hotfrostwormhotfrostworm Member Posts: 338 Arc User
    To be fair, the question was very broad and open ended. The person asked about a "generic game". But Salim Grant seems to be thinking too much and is over analyzing the question. My simple answer would be, People make your games fun.

    Beyond that, each player likes different styles and genre. If I were making a horror game, it will not appeal to people who want sci-if or combat games. Most players like risk, they like gamble and take a chance. If your game deals with combat, some players will not care for an army of bullet sponges, the direct opposite is also true they don't like to one-shot kill everything either.

    We have to remember, he was put on the hotseat for that question, I can look at it with 20/20 hindsight, and tell you my response. Mr. Grant is like most developers, they have lost their inner child, the world has hardened them to facts, numbers, and demographics. When I am bouncing my grandchild on my knee and he asks me, "What makes Christmas fun?" I sure don't want to tell the boy, stuff about 401K plans, lower unemployment rates, resurgence of the economic growth, and discount sales.
  • blargskullblargskull Member Posts: 460 Arc User
    So you are saying I should learn to keep my fat mouth shut @sagakaiyume#0847 ? :lol:

    I suppose @hotfrostworm is correct, I don't think I could be snappy with answers. I still don't see fun time sunshine sitting in charge of the game. I would like to have at least heard something along the lines of "people are into different things", or even asked the question, "That depends, what kind of game are we talking about?". To get all bewildered and say I don't know fun is, let's get a focus group together and find out, is not good.

    Oh btw, I can't wait until I get a grandson so I can tell him exactly what you said... and I will add, and that is why the Easter Bunny has nothing to do with it.

    Just killing time...
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 6,223 Arc User
    Family makes Christmas fun.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 6,223 Arc User
    Investors should play the game for a while. If they aren't willing to spend money in the game then they shouldn't consider spending money on the game.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • blargskullblargskull Member Posts: 460 Arc User
    edited July 4

    It's so funny, when here players talks that Neverwinter where OK before mod 16 and then it become terrible.

    Personally some think they hit peak on module 14 Ravenloft and would like to rewind back before module 15 Heart of Fire. I kind of liked Heart of Fire, not for the repetition, but the zany characters that invaded Neverwinter. It wasn't taking itself so serious, and I found the humor was ok. The issue was all the office humor, but that is A.I. schtick. I always felt, if you didn't like 15 then just don't play it.

    The reason why such big change where made with mod 16 was not cuz staff where bored. It was done cuz game was not OK.

    Perhaps time to refresh everyones memories here.

    The pre mod 16 where, Brain Dead, buff/debuff creep based gameplay, where dungeons difficulity where measured by speedruning. Boss where very tought, lasting few seconds at best.
    Party variety aslo where "great" 1 dps and rest of group buff/debuff feeders, regular party composition x2 DC's, x1 OP as buff providers.

    Here I noted someone mentioned that we should get back to Multiplicative dmg formula, what a nonsense.
    As example, in mod 10.5 ( Sea of Moving Ice) My warlock had 50k power, in FBI run with not even max out x2 clerics x1 paladin due buff creep I easily hit 190+k power. And I was not even mid tier player. Multiplicative forumula can be used only on few buffs, but with long cool downs. Otherwise there is no way to have any game balance. And thats not only here in NWO in other mmos is same situation. If you have multiplicative formula based bufffs and there are a lot, then you break game..

    A big portion of playerbase left in mod 14, cuz lot of players where bored, mod 15 which was aimed for low/mid tier players made even bigger dissapointment among high end players, which caused another big wave of playerbase lose.

    I think you are confusing module numbers here? Ravenloft 14 was the population increase of 35%. People were not leaving that I am aware of at that point?

    And to remind everyone, in that time mod 15 big portion of playerbase begged, I repeat Begged devs to give a challenge.

    So you all want it back? Where your presence as player is not even required, and usually gamplay where > log in> ~30 ming gameplay, then go play other mmo.

    In mod 10 players where telling that old days where better,, but in old days we had same posts too. Same now,, everyone repeating that old days where better,, yet all forgot all old complain fiestas..

    Most of what I am seeing here is character balance and has little to do with what module 15 to 16 introduced and took away from the game. From this, I would say you are seeking old character stats and not the removal of actual modules.

    Let's pretend the developers actually gave a hoot, if they made a Neverwinter Classic game like Blizzard. What would be the perfect restore point for this game? Meaning all the new features would get pulled and old features returned to the game. I will start by saying module 5, this eliminates a lot but the first major screw up was Elemental Evil module 6. This would remove Paladins but bring back the Foundry at it's best. Everything up to Tyranny of Dragons while it was grindy, most players were ok with it. Do you agree? What is the best cut off for a classic version?

    Just killing time...
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User
    edited July 4
    as far as classic cut off for me it would be mod 12. (before 12.b) but I liked the content up to 15. but I wouldn't stay long if there wasn't new content for it. no point
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 6,223 Arc User
    Before was better. Every zone had a dungeon. The Foundry was active.

    Now, we are getting one of the dungeons back. Woo hoo... [/sarcasm]

    We're crossing over with Krynn. The dragons are leaving.

    No dungeons. No dragons.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • jules#6770 jules Member Posts: 671 Arc User
    edited July 4
    Mod 14 was great before the banwave. I personally didn't encounter/see the kind of "fast hunt"/card cheat that got people banned until I heard of husas stream (and that was after it was ported over to consoles, obv) because I just had so much fun with the normal way of hunts. (Most people just play the game btw... We tend to blow huntgate out of proportion simply because a few people could make so much that it impacts HAMSTER even now... I never did, my friends never did it, and most people I know that knew if it never did it themselves) Everybody was online, everybody farmed, not everybody liked the hunts, but we still had salvage and it was great to just have this volume. The amount of people was great. Some spent all day in CR after it was out, some spent all day farming posters and selling sisters for a fortune, some farmed low posters for salvage and coins - there was something to do for various levels of difficulty that went hand in hand with eachother. My whole alli was getting stuff done.

    I really do not understand people that think pre Mod 15 game was bad. It wasn't balanced, and it was great fun.
    - bye bye -
  • sagakaiyume#0847 sagakaiyume Member Posts: 342 Arc User
    edited July 4
    I started mod 14 during 2x exp event, quit after hitting 70, came back late mod 15 and actually enjoyed the game. I never knew about the "unbalance" the game had at the time, heck I couldn't get people to do dungeons with me in the guild I had joined until mod 16 when those people decided "oh, you know, now we do need a fighter tank".

    Taking away exp leveling from the game is great, but the fact you hit max level in under 24 hours is a joke. Hitting max level and being given bad information is what ruined the game from me, so with them curating campaigns more I find it a good thing (required IL/ordering).

    These devs' mistakes have purely been devaluing player's time/investments and removing content. Whichever 'version' of gear score/character sheet people liked most will be debatable. Sure, there are bugs but those can be fixed within current module if they wanted to, but content gone is always going to be bad.

    The reason why Horizontal progression works in games like Guild wars 2, is because "zen" store there isn't selling bis companions, enchants, mounts and so on. You can't have a working store that sells you power, for your power to mean little if anything. For example, we went mod 15 darks being movespeed, then it was removed, now its back as Azures, with their excuses for removing them being completely worthless. People from mod 15-21 means we went from azures in utility, to darks (mod 16), to tacticals (tomm), to darks again (nerf tacticals) then azures again. Each time wiping the price of our stuff and making us change them.

    I have made ~100m since I stopped playing after the combat changes, if I was playing the game, actively, doing dungeon runs, upgrading the best companions of the moment, I would have lost money simply due to drops being negligible, having to learn/carry groups and so on. A game that you make more not playing than playing is a failed game.

    Let's face it, even if they added a classic version of the game, like most other companies that add classic, we'd still want things added back into the game or improvements which if they can't improve what we have now, do we really think a classic version run by the same company would do better?
  • hadestemplar#9918 hadestemplar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 970 Arc User
    edited July 4
    @blargskull

    Personally some think they hit peak on module 14 Ravenloft and would like to rewind back before module 15 Heart of Fire. I kind of liked Heart of Fire, not for the repetition, but the zany characters that invaded Neverwinter. It wasn't taking itself so serious, and I found the humor was ok. The issue was all the office humor, but that is A.I. schtick. I always felt, if you didn't like 15 then just don't play it.


    The peak of Neverwinter popilarity where mod 5. The reason is very simple.

    We had action combat based gameplay, thought Life steal was only whom where breaking perfect balance.. Low stats, thats mean players skills, team work and experience was center of gameplay not some minimal element.

    We had 25 players tiamat( legecay) which where hard to clear, and required team work.
    On top we had normal dungeons, and epic ( same dungeons as regular ones just upscaled to epic tier).
    And on top we had Foundry.

    Now during mod 14 ravenlof I have seen how multiple alliances bigger and smaller ones left game. So to say that it was peak of NWO sounds silly.



    I think you are confusing module numbers here? Ravenloft 14 was the population increase of 35%. People were not leaving that I am aware of at that point?


    Have you forgot mass ban wave due Barovia Hunt glitch explotation and that after ban, even more players left. Even before that happens I have seen how multiple alliances left game, the ones who already where capable to do end game content all in alliance formed groups.

    Now your 35% playerbase increase is due Neverember Requirement feature. Players where creating tons of alts, lv up and for it gained rewards, Refinament realated stuffs, wards and so one.

    In that time ( mod 14) one of my previous guild, where lead who had across multiple accounts over 500 alts. Few accounts he loss during mass banning, yet others where left alone..




    Most of what I am seeing here is character balance and has little to do with what module 15 to 16 introduced and took away from the game. From this, I would say you are seeking old character stats and not the removal of actual modules.


    IN early mod 16 there where lot of hates, that why devs removed legacy boons legacy feats. Some said it remove variety of possible builds..
    Now take legacy feats for Hellbringer warlock, pick any random feat and campaing boon set ups. Even most craizy one. And here is thing I was used that set up too. I did all possible even most unorthodox warlock set ups, both feats/boons and encounter/daily power/class features and etc.
    IT was not matter what you where using, all was matter how many buff/debufffs group had. In some contnet runs I went without picking any feats/boons/even paragon path, and I was second by dealt dmg in score board.

    Other thing, players where picking easiest, highest hitting set ups and thats it,, so most feats where just illusion and more less no one where ussing. So devs removed this illusion and thats it..

    As for buff/debuff removal it was needed, game breaking, laging and so one happened due high effect/stat loops which caused high quantity and high size packages sent/receive between server and players client. Have you forgot mass lag spikes??


    Let's pretend the developers actually gave a hoot, if they made a Neverwinter Classic game like Blizzard. What would be the perfect restore point for this game? Meaning all the new features would get pulled and old features returned to the game. I will start by saying module 5, this eliminates a lot but the first major screw up was Elemental Evil module 6. This would remove Paladins but bring back the Foundry at it's best. Everything up to Tyranny of Dragons while it was grindy, most players were ok with it. Do you agree? What is the best cut off for a classic version?

    While I am not fan of mod 6, the action which devs took was needed.


    In mod 5, while it was fun, life steal was breaking game, more less even Wizard could tank bosses, all is matter to proc life steal nonstop.
    Then artefact weapon set also due stat was starting break game balance,, so devs changed stat formula. Even if its changed a little bit, due buffs using multiplicative formula, all legacy epic dungeons where way too easy for all players. even low IL.

    Thats why they had to choose, keep them and try fix them one by one while reading tons of complain comments. Or cut them from game.

    Now here is thing lets say they would keep old dungeons,, how long they would be interesting?? After first 30 times you complete x dungeon you are bored and want something new. Thats why devs where introducing new dungeons, rahter bringing old ones with adjustments..

    Just look to this Vault of Stars HC mode dungeon, and players hate it.. All wanted something new..

    Same thing would be then ( in mod 6).

    From all legacy stuffs I would like to have Foundry back and legacy 25 players tiamat, and finally upscaled Stronghold content.
    ========================================================================
    “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
    Gustave Le Bon.

    ==================================================
  • jules#6770 jules Member Posts: 671 Arc User
    edited July 4
    You think that everything gets boring, and you might not have picked suboptimal builds - but others did?
    There is a lot of people rerunning CN, FBI, Codg and Tong every day. There is many people willingly rerunning Barovia storyline content.
    I don't like the idea of tomm - but I am not assuming that thats what everybody else thinks as well. You are jumping to conclusions here.

    Neverember Recruitment started with Mod15, not 14.
    - bye bye -
  • sagakaiyume#0847 sagakaiyume Member Posts: 342 Arc User



    Neverember Recruitment started with Mod15, not 14.

    Must've been at the start of 15 or whenever that happened, I wasn't aware of "mods" at the time. The 2x exp fast tracked me to 70, ruined the leveling experience and overwhelmed with campaigns being told to start with chult.

    After quitting I came back in December with my fighter.

  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,462 Arc User
    edited July 4
    The first great fall of NW was mod5. The game became so trivial and easy most of the more invested players just left. The economy was ruined, and all the long term goals, like the weapon sets and T1, T2 unbound armor sets were removed, by making the items dropping left and right in Tiamat. Adding instead bound Artifacts..

    Those players never return, and by the time the devs tried to fix the issue, they started too late, and delivered half broken solution, named mod6.

    Tiamat was not hard to clear, even on the first week after release groups managed to clear ~3 in one go, finishing and moving instances. Like all group content it was hard for people who didn't communicated. And with the lack of private queues it was especially hard to teach newer people in a controlled manner.


    Post edited by micky1p00 on
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User
    edited July 4
    once I fully groked how the enchantment thing works on reworks I have never failed to make ad on it. I sell all enchants a month before the change and play with cheap non optimal enchants for a month and then buy back. it only backfired on me once but I came out even on it. I came out roses with the enchant packs too because I saved for a couple months before selling and just decked out all my alts in style.

    once upon a time gaming the system was fun, in and of it self. now there is no reason. nothing has value. 15 enchants... who really cares?
  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,903 Arc User
    You know what I would've preferred to the removal of zones? Introducing a player choice pathway, where decisions a player makes takes them into different zones and a different levelling experience.

    E.g. the underdark route: Rothe Valley leading all the way up to Mantol Derith
    or the villains & cutthroats route; Blacklake leading up to Helm's Hold.

    With a bit of work they could've kept all the zones whilst introducing a completely new story based varied levelling experience.
    Please Do Not Feed The Trolls

    Xael De Armadeon: DC
    Xane De Armadeon: CW
    Zen De Armadeon: OP
    Zohar De Armadeon: TR
    Chrion De Armadeon: SW
    Gosti Big Belly: GWF
    Barney McRustbucket: GF
    Lt. Thackeray: HR
    Lucius De Armadeon: BD


    Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User
    to me it looks like mod 16 killed the game and it's been slowly dying since then. that's why they keep reinventing the wheel. they're trying to reverse their loss but they're just making it worse every time. steam is also probably showing newer players rather than vets. it would be interesting to see the actual over all numbers.
  • xenocide#6577 xenocide Member Posts: 205 Arc User
    Based on your above chart the game almost looks like it stopped growing as a game after mod 7.

    Up until mod 7 new classes and things were being added, the team was bringing new things to the game.

    After mod 7, at least by your chart it mostly looks to be reworks, and improvements or at least changes to things already implemented in the game.
  • tchefi#6735 tchefi Member Posts: 309 Arc User
    edited July 5

    Based on your above chart the game almost looks like it stopped growing as a game after mod 7.

    Up until mod 7 new classes and things were being added, the team was bringing new things to the game.

    After mod 7, at least by your chart it mostly looks to be reworks, and improvements or at least changes to things already implemented in the game.

    Obviously the various things i noted on the chart can be a bit of a bias, as I show or omit depending on how much importance I value things from my point of view.

    Kind of agree with you, but also not. They added quite some content (each mod brought at least one dungeon, skirmish or trial + a new campaign [except mod7 and mod17, suspiciously consecutive to the 2 mods that failed badly]), but there were only few things that felt to be true novelties : the stronghold, the hunt system and maybe more debatable things like the workshop, the wardrobe, master expeditions, the hellpit/nightmare, the avernus car (quite a missed opportunity there to use this in more depth, even if it was only an ability to paint your car as you can chose colors in your wardrobe) and top 100 phases in Avernus.
    What is sad IMHO, is they had also removed quite too much (old dungeons, leveling skirmishes, the foundry, old sharandar...), and sometimes didn't even bothered saying it is officially gone (like portobello, call to arms, and more recently the tales it seems).

    I do think (mmh, more hope than think ^^) the bard will add some refreshing air during a short period of time, at least from a "vet" perspective. Personnally i'm currently holding myself to check the preview and avoiding as much as I can all the comments and talks about the bard so I don't spoil myself, and keep the opportunity to embrace and enjoy this new class on the live server as a true fresh experience.

    Post edited by tchefi#6735 on
  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,903 Arc User

    to me it looks like mod 16 killed the game and it's been slowly dying since then. that's why they keep reinventing the wheel. they're trying to reverse their loss but they're just making it worse every time. steam is also probably showing newer players rather than vets. it would be interesting to see the actual over all numbers.

    Yeah that's what those numbers look like to me too. I'd love to see the ones for XBox and Playstation.

    Things appeared to recover a little from M17 but not back to pre M16 levels - I see M20 is missing from this chart, my guess is that it'll show even more decline.

    I came back from a 2 year break in M19 and I was ok with how things were - M20 hit a few months later and I was definitely unimpressed with the changes, particularly with how it impacted tanks and as I (and others) predicted on the preview forums, the number of players running tanks has decreased in relation to other class types, lengthening wait times for queues.
    Please Do Not Feed The Trolls

    Xael De Armadeon: DC
    Xane De Armadeon: CW
    Zen De Armadeon: OP
    Zohar De Armadeon: TR
    Chrion De Armadeon: SW
    Gosti Big Belly: GWF
    Barney McRustbucket: GF
    Lt. Thackeray: HR
    Lucius De Armadeon: BD


    Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
  • tchefi#6735 tchefi Member Posts: 309 Arc User
    edited July 5
    armadeonx said:


    Things appeared to recover a little from M17 but not back to pre M16 levels - I see M20 is missing from this chart, my guess is that it'll show even more decline.

    Mod20 is the green bars on the right (the legend is a bit messed up as i didn't update the end of mod20).
    In my opinion, the recovering is mostly due to the "covid lockdown" period rather than the success of module 18. Mod 19 & 20 seem to have been reasonnably good at "players retention" despite the slight decrease.
Sign In or Register to comment.