"The game is just not fun anymore"

thekfdcase

> @honghua#7152 said:
> > @zyronax said:
> > (Quote)
> > Did it ever occur to you, in your self-righteous sense of entitlement, that in order to play "the damn game at max lvl," you might have to put in the time, effort, and resources that others did? Cause ya know, your tirade has more than just a whiff of sour grapes and envy. Any way, you can keep this version of the game, and should you ever actually put in the time and effort to reach end-game status remember this moment (with the all-but-inevitable change of attitude and experience that will bring). lol
> >
> > Turn off the lights when the doors close for the final time.
> >
> > P.S. Also, that spiel doesn't at all come across as a paid-for-drive-by "positive review, yay!" hit piece.
>
> I do understand that old vets lost a ton of stuff they have enjoyed for so long, i was angry after they have changed my owlbear, however this game needed a complete rework and still needs a ton of changes to make it even more accessible than it is now.
> Tell me what you want how you liked it before, the fact is this game was extremely hostile to anyone who just started to play it. Majority of people who ever tried to play it and i guarantee you there was a ton of them simply left the game for a reason, which the biggest one was how terribly pay2win it was back in days. Tell me it isnt, then i will give you a link to thread where people were stating they have spend thousands of dollar in money to play blade master and why it is not being buffed.
> It was not accessible by any means, and without new flow of players it would not live for long. Its not the case of entitlement but of the competition on mmorpg market. You cant have a game which is gating the entire end game behind the thousands of dollar paywall and expect it to live for long.
>
> This game needs account wide companions and mounts and should work and fight with GIANT PAY2WIN ticket that is attached to this game unfortunately.
>
>

The fact that you even consider NW in the same weight-class as other, bigger, well-established MMOs, and claim there is a giant paywall preventing players from playing content raises questions to the credibility of your claims.

I'll tell you what I like about pre-Mod 16: Everything that Mod 16+ removed/destroyed.

As for new players, it's been documented in the industry, that even when devs specifically cater to newbies, up to 70% of them leave within 3-4 weeks. *Some* new blood may be needed, but it's the veterans that are the anchors of the game's community, and it's the 'whales' (1% or less of the player population according to industry research) that keep f2p games afloat. It's not the newcomers.

The changes you praise as being life-saving for NW, have seen a second mass exodus on a scale not seen since the Mod 6 debacle. Player population took a permanent dive back then which it has never recovered from. History is repeating itself, and this time Cryptic has far fewer staff and presumably financial resources focused on NW. (Hello MTG!)

Fun fact: Zen store purchased mounts are unlocked account-wide (except for the first-time sale of legendary mounts).

I agree that having companions unlocked account-wide would be helpful. (That goes for all in-game items.)

thefiresidecat

there was one good thing in the reddit but honestly the ama left me feeling dire about the direction of the game again.

plasticbat

thekfdcase#5416 said:

The fact that you even consider NWN in the same weight-class as other, bigger, well-established MMOs, and claim there is a giant paywall preventing players from playing content raises questions to the credibility of your claims.

I just want to point out this is not NWN (Neverwinter Night). This is NW (Neverwinter).
NWN is a totally different game from a different Developer.

motu999

thekfdcase#5416 said:

As for new players, it's been documented in the industry, that even when devs specifically cater to newbies, up to 70% of them leave within 3-4 weeks. *Some* new blood may be needed, but it's the veterans that are the anchors of the game's community, and it's the 'whales' (1% or less of the player population according to industry research) that keep f2p games afloat.

Tend to agree, but not entirely.
To keep the game afloat, it also needs a stable flow of income in form of real money.
The question is, how to ensure a sustainable income. In this, I think, we agree.

The fact is

- Cryptic's income (from the ZEN store) plummeted by 50% after release of Mod 16

You can see this in the wait time for the backlog in the ZAX.
Before Mod 16 it ran at 1 Mio AD / day, now it is more around 0.5 Mio AD / day

On the other hand, it is also known, that new players tend to spend more real money, than veterans and whales.
Therefore, at first sight, it seems that veterans are not important assets for the income of the egame company

But wait, Mod 16 catered more towards the new players. Why then the dramatic decrease in income?

Mod 16 did not make any new players leave. New players don't know that pre Mod 16 was "better".
So why the 50% drop in income, if Mod 16 made the veterans and whales leave and actually made the game more accessible for new players?

I guess the reason is, that you require a delicate balance between new and old players for a thriving MMO and a thriving MMO community.

Veterans tend to
- help new players (lesser numbers of new players will leave, if they get help)
- provide positive feedback to new players (lesser numbers of new players will leave, if they are told the game is awesome)

In other words, veteran players are crucial in order to make new players realize, that the game is worthwhile to play.
Once a new player has realized this, (s)he will invest money into the game.

So, even when "more money" comes from the new players, new player's willingness to actually spend real money depends very much on how the game is perceived by the veterans.

Furthermore, not all, but many veterans will support the game - provided they still like it - with real money, even if they dont really need to spend the real money (because they know very well how get all the ZEN/AD they really need ingame). They do this, because they appreciate the efforts of the devs. If they lose faith in the devs, why spend real money?

Bottom line: The road to success seems to be
- keep your veteran players content (otherwise the community goes sour)
- don't make it too hard for the new players (otherwise this important source of income leaves)
- but don't make it too easy for the new players either (if they can easily get everything in game, why spend real money?)

just my two cents

hustin1

thefiresidecat said:

there was one good thing in the reddit but honestly the ama left me feeling dire about the direction of the game again.

I just looked through it, and it seemed like a pointless exercise. Most of the responses amounted to "we can't say anything at this time." I guess all the openness that Chris talked about didn't last long.

jules

hustin1 said:

thefiresidecat said:

there was one good thing in the reddit but honestly the ama left me feeling dire about the direction of the game again.

I just looked through it, and it seemed like a pointless exercise. Most of the responses amounted to "we can't say anything at this time."

I am not so sure, to some extent it read like "We were never allowed to talk about things in such a great detail and now it feels weird if we do so".
I try to see it more in the context of answers we got until now, like, I mean, we all know them. It's WAI, we think it's in a good place, whatever.
There is, to me, a different approach in communication here that also needs some time to evolve.
I mean, to say that we would like to see some different path now, some different approaches to how this game is handled, how we are handled to be honest, would be an understatement. But, compared to businesses I know (they may be in a different field, but it is similar on topics like communication, transparency, customer service and the likes) changes in this areas are not easy.
Also, it was a systems AMA. A lot of stuff people want to talk about is not exactly system-related.

In general, since I am pretty sure we shouldn't hope for big changes until perhaps M21, we are just in for a wait if we want to see if there really is anything good in for us. I just wanted to note that changes on communication and customer approach do not happen overnight and there for sure are routines in the team they have to work on long before we can acknowledge the differences.

In either case, in my opinion it boils down to: can one stomach the wait to see IF they are really trying to change the already very set course or not.

plasticbat

jules#6770 said:

In either case, in my opinion it boils down to: can one stomach the wait to see IF they are really trying to change the already very set course or not.

Why bother to wait?
If you don't like (or even hate) what it is now and in a short period of time ahead, take a break and check this out later.
if you are comfortable with what you have now, play until you don't.
There is nothing needs to be "stomach". It is a game. Not a career, a job, a marriage, ...

Personally, if it is not here, it is not here until it is here. Nobody knows about the future.

jules

plasticbat said:

jules#6770 said:

In either case, in my opinion it boils down to: can one stomach the wait to see IF they are really trying to change the already very set course or not.

Why bother to wait?
If you don't like (or even hate) what it is now and in a short period of time ahead, take a break and check this out later.
if you are comfortable with what you have now, play until you don't.
There is nothing needs to be "stomach". It is a game. Not a career, a job, a marriage, ...

Personally, if it is not here, it is not here until it is here. Nobody knows about the future.

That is "waiting".
I am playing something else, but for me personally, if I come back to a game I previously played, I have "waited" for it. It's just how I formulated it.
I agree with you. This is actually what I meant to some extent - that it won't happen overnight, but it might happen in the future, and that the outlook does not have to be negative in general.
If I already thought the outlook to be that negative, I wouldn't "bother" to wait, I would have moved on.

greywynd

motu999#9953 said:

You can see this in the wait time for the backlog in the ZAX.
Before Mod 16 it ran at 1 Mio AD / day, now it is more around 0.5 Mio AD / day

This assumes that people only buy zen to convert to AD, which is patently not true.

rickcase276

Yes, I have never bought zen to just exchange for AD. I always buy zen to use for VIP, and that is all I buy zen for.

greywynd

I charge if there is something I need/want. By the time I'm done, my remaining zen is so low that the game won't let me put it into the exchange.

rickcase276

Same here, currently I have 7 zen.

greywynd

I think I have 10.

autumnwitch

hustin1 said:

thefiresidecat said:

there was one good thing in the reddit but honestly the ama left me feeling dire about the direction of the game again.

I just looked through it, and it seemed like a pointless exercise. Most of the responses amounted to "we can't say anything at this time." I guess all the openness that Chris talked about didn't last long.

This bothers me because it could mean a few different things.

Higher up powers are micro-managing Chris prohibiting from doing more.

Chris's real reason for being here is to shut down NW. I believe one of his last (if not very last) jobs was shutting down another MMO . (This seems unlikely but it is a possibility)

Everyone at Cryptic are literally flying by the seat of their pants now day to day. Meaning the ship is sailing but no one knows where.

None of the above options bode well for us.

I personally think NW will stay active until Magic comes out and it will either shut down or go into a maintenance mode. I really don't think Cryptic wants NW and Magic to coexist/compete.

Just my 2 pence.

motu999

greywynd said:

motu999#9953 said:

You can see this in the wait time for the backlog in the ZAX.
Before Mod 16 it ran at 1 Mio AD / day, now it is more around 0.5 Mio AD / day

This assumes that people only buy zen to convert to AD, which is patently not true.

OK, lets look at the money flow in detail.
The only real money income for Cryptic, directly from the game (not from sources outside the game) is through ZEN sales.
They sell ZEN for real money. As far as I am aware, they do not sell anything else directly to the players.

#1 Some players want ZEN and offer AD (no income for Cryptic)
#2 Some players spend the ZEN they bought for real money directly in the ZEN store
#3 Some players use the ZEN they bought from real money, to get AD.

The two sources of income (actually, one, but used by the buyers of ZEN in different ways) are paths #2 and #3.
#1 does not create any income, but it does not reduce the income either. It merely keeps path #3 going.

I guess we agree, that the players in path #2, e.g. that spend their BOUGHT ZEN directly in the ZEN store, don't show up in the ZAX. Only path #3 shows up in the ZAX (of course also #1, which is always in perfect balance with #3).

So you are correct: Looking at the ZAX does not tell us how much money Cryptic earns in total, e.g. via paths #2 AND #3.
But it gives us a very good estimate (delayed by the wait time) how much money they earn via path #3.

The flow through the ZAX (path #3) represents a fraction of the total real money flow.
Assuming the percentages between the two paths (#2 and #3) have remained constant from Mod15-17,
the percentage by which the flow in one path declined (the path we can see - #3) should be a FAIR ESTIMATE for the decline in the total flow of income.

I agree, that this is an estimate.
A rough one.
The real figures could be a decline between 30% to 50% (again an estimate).

But it is rather obvious, that there must have been a dramatic decline in income.
Otherwise the company would not have seen the need to replace the top management!
The new top management (Chris) has - very obviously - as his topmost priority, to win back the trust of the players.
Cryptic is willing to go through some drastic changes, in its openness of communication with the players.
Changes that were unheard of and unthinkable under the old management.

jules

> @motu999#9953 said:
> But it is rather obvious, that there must have been a dramatic decline in income.
> Otherwise the company would not have seen the need to replace the top management!
> The new top management (Chris) has - very obviously - as his topmost priority, to win back the trust of the players.
> Cryptic is willing to go through some drastic changes, in its openness of communication with the players.
> Changes that were unheard of and unthinkable under the old management.



Yeah. Also, M16 was far too huge and resource-cosuming to be a starting attempt to drive NW to the ground to get the playerbase ready for MTG.
I believe that they are trying to get NW going to some extent. They could've just pulled the plug if they wanted to, or let NW roll without M15-17 until MTG launch. Like M18 content-adding, HE and a campaign, a normal dung each mod... But they didn't.
We will see.

motu999

jules#6770 said:

I believe that they are trying to get NW going to some extent. They could've just pulled the plug if they wanted to ...

We will see.

Exactly my impression as well.
It does not make sense to hire a new manager, just to pull the plug.
It does not make sense to go through the - tremendously difficult - process of changing the company culture (how they communicate externally and internally), just to pull the plug right after or during this monumental effort.

I really see the developments in the past month as very positive.
Of course, one will have to see if Chris and the team will be successful.
But from what I have seen so far, I am convinced, there is a genuine willingness to keep this game running and to improve it.

callumf

motu999#9953 said:

jules#6770 said:

I believe that they are trying to get NW going to some extent. They could've just pulled the plug if they wanted to ...

We will see.

Exactly my impression as well.
It does not make sense to hire a new manager, just to pull the plug.
It does not make sense to go through the - tremendously difficult - process of changing the company culture (how they communicate externally and internally), just to pull the plug right after or during this monumental effort.

I really see the developments in the past month as very positive.
Of course, one will have to see if Chris and the team will be successful.
But from what I have seen so far, I am convinced, there is a genuine willingness to keep this game running and to improve it.

Agree, mostly.

No business owner invests money in a product or company they are going to scrap. That's just stupid.

You only invest money in a business if you are going to try and increase profits or sell it to someone else.

plasticbat

They could have just started to slow down and slide to maintenance mode or even just operation mode (as just keep the server running). They don't need to hire a new Producer to do that. Why spend extra money for the sake of terminating something? They don't need to give us "severance pay" when they "lay us off".

Just because they are making a new game, it does not mean they have to kill the current game(s). The current game(s) are still providing funding to the company. The "success" of the new game is still questionable.

New game and older game(s) can co-exist as long as they can generate profit.

One producer for one game of Cryptic cannot change company culture. It may change the culture of one team but not the company. I don't see Chris oversee STO and other non-NW projects. For me, all these communication "improvement" are just PR. I have not felt there is a major change beyond "okay, this could make somebody feel better". On the other hand, they did spend some effort/resource/time to do the "PR".

mentinmindmaker

greywynd said:

motu999#9953 said:

You can see this in the wait time for the backlog in the ZAX.
Before Mod 16 it ran at 1 Mio AD / day, now it is more around 0.5 Mio AD / day

This assumes that people only buy zen to convert to AD, which is patently not true.

No, this assumes there is a constant percentage of the purchased Zen being spent on the ZAX.

And that is not an unreasonable assumption.

motu999

mentinmindmaker said:

greywynd said:

motu999#9953 said:

You can see this in the wait time for the backlog in the ZAX.
Before Mod 16 it ran at 1 Mio AD / day, now it is more around 0.5 Mio AD / day

This assumes that people only buy zen to convert to AD, which is patently not true.

No, this assumes there is a constant percentage of the purchased Zen being spent on the ZAX.

And that is not an unreasonable assumption.

Thanks, two sentences to convey the message, where it took me ~20 :-)

gabrieldourden

I spent quite some money on this game over the years, but now there is nothing I can spend my money on. The only thing left is slowly upgrading all my enchants to rank 15 which is as exciting as watching grass grow.

I'm TOMM ready and did it once for the sake of completeness, but am not interested in a trial where you basically hit a dummy and perform some routines on command. It's like being a dog under training: sit now or die, jump now or die, hit the dummy,... There's no room for making your own strategy and adapt it to the team you have, and all boss fights look the same: forced strategy or die. This is a D&D-based game. In D&D there's no fixed strategy, there are obstacles to overcome and you're free to decide how to approach them. That's what I liked in the original dungeons.

Same thing for my favourite class, the Ranger. All rangers I see are clones. No room for different playstiles as only one single build is functional enough and even there you have to follow a specific routine of powers.

I used to spend money on VIP but I don't do that anymore. The only thing I miss are the free map teleports, but all the rest is pretty useless.

I spent quite some time on preview in the last weeks and concluded that Mod19 will be short for me. One single dungeon (that I already ran on preview) with no interesting rewards. Only a few of nice items (mostly for their appearance) that I already collected on preview, so I expect to have them by the time I complete the boons in the campaign. And then only grinding on enchants, waiting for MOD19.

greywynd

motu999#9953 said:

OK, lets look at the money flow in detail.

Not possible without access to Cryptic's account records.

greywynd

mentinmindmaker said:

No, this assumes there is a constant percentage of the purchased Zen being spent on the ZAX.

And that is not an unreasonable assumption.

Never assume. Assumptions are not facts.

thekfdcase

> @greywynd said:
> (Quote)
> Never assume. Assumptions are not facts.

That door swings both ways. You in turn can't assume there hasn't been a constant conversion of Zen into AD.

What we *can* confirm is that the backlog now diminishes at half the rate that it did previously. There are several possible causes for this, and some of those are interconnected. Denying that a year filled with hugely unpopular changes has impacted the game, and played its part in this comes across as merely trolling or frankly delusional - possibly a mixture of both.

Pick your poison.

jimmypdt

thekfdcase#5416 said:

> @greywynd said:

> (Quote)

> Never assume. Assumptions are not facts.



That door swings both ways. You in turn can't assume there hasn't been a constant conversion of Zen into AD.



What we *can* confirm is that the backlog now diminishes at half the rate that it did previously. There are several possible causes for this, and some of those are interconnected. Denying that a year filled with hugely unpopular changes has impacted the game, and played its part in this comes across as merely trolling or frankly delusional - possibly a mixture of both.



Pick your poison.

I pick rat poison. Did... did I win??

gromovnipljesak

Honestly, I quit a while ago, because of this.

1) The new players can barely progress because the more people play the harder it is to reach higher levels because the economy is HAMSTER
2) mid tier players, are getting discouraged by the lack of content
3) endgame players are annoyed by all the constant nerfs and imbalances that killed their favorite classes.

I haven't had the desire to play, however I do have the desire to check up how HAMSTER going just to see how bad it got. That shows somethin, doesn't it?

Unknown

This content has been removed.

motu999

greywynd said:

Never assume. Assumptions are not facts.

I have been assuming, you are a real person.
Oh, never assume ... :-)

mynaam

carloswartune#5709 said:

I agree that the current situation in the game is quite bad.
- Casual players are not having fun anymore, due to all the reasons you stated;
- People like me and my friends (medium players? almost hardcore? something in between?) are not having so much fun anymore because ToMM is practically impossible for us and everything else is easy.

I hope that the current CDP Discussion results in good solutions for all groups of players being implemented in upcoming mods.

Players feel like only bis get content(mod 17 was a bis only mod nothing for other players) and when they talk they get ignored. cause BIS players overrule them!