This is why a separate Foundry server would work. Toons would be exclusive to the Foundry. Removes all exploit potential. No RP no "live server" gear. And could easily be used for group experiences.
I wish it would have been that easy, and that's great, as a sandbox, but who will play that?
The foundry was a small part of the larger construct, the NW game, separating those now creates a whole new bag of problems that need solutions.
" I will open good reads and look for something I haven't read yet, as a better investment of my time. " And good on you for that. Took's book reading time has finally surpassed NW playtime for the first time since 2013. So we can both thank big Tommy Foss for raising our intellect via Mod16-17.
But you only ran/will run Foundry quests if there was loot in it for you? Okay. You be you. np. But you are probably not representative of most true Foundry fans, *ITHO. Not the loot expoiters of early mods or "Foundry Hour" once-daily AD grinders. Took means actual fans of player-made content.
Most of us created and ran foundry for the depth of interesting stories, quirky dialogue and diverse adventures. The AD and RP were a great bonus. Not gonna lie about that. But a pleasant afterthought. A cherry on the sundae.
"Will you login daily and "oh what foundry I'll go and play by myself there"? Spend there the same time an average player spends in the game? Will the common NW player login there? Will it do it more than few times?"
Took thinks most foundry creators and players WOULD go to a Foundry server as a regular break from Live Server grind and monotony for a few quick, fun adventures. You wouldn't have to play Foundry Server alone anymore than you have to play preview server alone. Took would drag a few friends along. Just for HAMSTERs and giggles.
"And how it will justify its existence as a business?" It wouldn't. Took was just supporting the OP's doomed speculation. They'll never do any of this. But we Hobbits are optimistic "ale mug half-full" folk.
*In Took's Humble Opinion
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
But you only ran/will run Foundry quests if there was loot in it for you? Okay. You be you. np. But you are probably not representative of most true Foundry fans, *ITHO. Not the loot expoiters of early mods or "Foundry Hour" once-daily AD grinders. Took means actual fans of player-made content.
It is my fault for blurring the line of the personal example and the overall average player. I did, rarely tried some foundries for the fun of it, and had recommended some to new players, like one of the obvious "tired of being a hero" comes to mind, and some other that I no longer recall the names of (one I still remember was about pirate ships - was superbly done).
But that was a deviation from the norm, the vast majority wouldn't touch the foundry, at least not in any constant way.
Most of us created and ran foundry for the depth of interesting stories, quirky dialogue and diverse adventures. The AD and RP were a great bonus. Not gonna lie about that. But a pleasant afterthought. A cherry on the sundae.
True, no argument there, and there were some very well done foundries, that was worth to do once. But the handful of creators, that made those, are not the "large player base" they are very very small subgroup.
"Will you login daily and "oh what foundry I'll go and play by myself there"? Spend there the same time an average player spends in the game? Will the common NW player login there? Will it do it more than few times?"
Took thinks most foundry creators and players WOULD go to a Foundry server as a regular break from Live Server grind and monotony for a few quick, fun adventures. You wouldn't have to play Foundry Server alone anymore than you have to play preview server alone.
You would, and I imagine that those that created, will also love to fiddle with a standalone server. But the question comes not to creators, but the users, the general player base. The foundry was many years a click away inside the game, yet it was not used. While ofcourse I can't show you any numbers, only Cryptic has those, bit I hope there is no argument that once the incentive was removed, the foundries were ignored. To the level that creators were forced to be creative to entice players to try their foundries.
Took would drag a few friends along. Just for HAMSTERs and giggles.
Pff, friends, who needs them.. Though I think that adding group based functionality, even as simple as team flags (group A, group could have added an entire competative world, and with it, mini-games, contests, and challenges. And better yet ability to flag PvP, and you get even if not complete or polished, but at least ideas for PvP maps, back when it was still relevant.
Not what many of the NW Foundry creators were oriented around, but historically, those types of game mods, do add engagement and retention and could justify the upkeep of the foundry as a whole.
"And how it will justify its existence as a business?" It wouldn't. Took was just supporting the OP's doomed speculation. They'll never do any of this. But we Hobbits are optimistic "ale mug half-full" folk.
Fair enough Though he also asked as a new NW lead, and that means business, lead business. Jokes aside, there is a huge gap that yet to be solved, on how to justify its existence and how it influences the player base in terms of engagement, and retention. Not relevant now, but if it's hypothetical exercise, then to the end, and maybe somoene will bring ideas for that too.
If all (or most) profit incentives are removed from the Foundry, why would it matter if anyone turned a bot loose? If items can't be brought out of the Foundry into regular game play, why would it matter if the mechanics of the Foundry don't exactly coincide with the mechanics of regular game content?
The Foundry should be a completely separate animal from regular Neverwinter game play and I'm sure the developers could tweak the Foundry build structure to avoid any bleed over from the Foundry to the regular game...
Now if it is the case that every Foundry submission needs to have a Cryptic programmer go over it with a fine toothed comb to make sure it doesn't negatively impact Neverwinter, I can see how having the Foundry back would be cost and time prohibitive. But if Foundry authors were able to post content that in no way (or only minimally) impacted Neverwinter, why wouldn't they be able to bring back the Foundry?
Who would use it if there are no incentives. It has been around for several years without any reward or incentive to use, except the low chance of not bad story, which usually didn't happen. The vast majority of the player base ignored it completely, foundry makers ran contest with their items and rewards to incentivize people to run. You are competing over a players limited time, the foundry experience must be superb for a player to forgo their progress for that time. This is not the typical foundry, and not the typical player.
Software needs upkeep, the game engine is being updated, it's not the same as used 10 years ago (or whatever) in CO, meaning all dependencies need to be updated, that means foundry.
Making sure it actually works (and mostly it didn't) takes IT / OPs time.
Servers cost money, opening foundry instances is spinning up hardware or loading on already running servers.
It all adds up. There is no 0 costs to this even if no one uses it. It costs just to make sure it actually works.
Who would use it if there are no incentives. It has been around for several years without any reward or incentive to use, except the low chance of not bad story, which usually didn't happen.
Already answered before you asked when @hustin1 suggested ways Cryptic "monotize the foundry"
...allow people to run the content for the pure joy of being able to run new and often interesting content. Those players who think they should be rewarded for running Foundry content can feel free not to queue up for the Foundry, those who just want to experience something different, support their friends, guildmates or whoever by running the Foundry are free do do so but not because of the promise of any kind of substantial reward.
Software rarely needs upkeep if it is designed properly and the properties and funcrions that operate within those designs are static... Just because Neverwinter seems to be updated weekly, that doesn't mean the foundry needs to be.
And again, if the programming is right, foundry authors will be able to produce content that works - or it doesn't, there would be no need for constant checking for conformity and possible exploits - especially if there is little or no "profit" or cross game access to be gained by a player running the foundry.
I've played a few games where players were able to design and play limited ancillary content based on the actual game where little to nothing from the main game transmits to the player programmable part and nothing from the player programmable part transfers back to the primary game. A lot of people still found satisfaction in producing personal content just for being able to make it and for letting others experience it... there was no "reward" except for producing or experiencing new content.
Unlike you, I don't care to make supportable claims about "typical foundry" or "typical player", I don't have access to the kind of information that would take my comment beyond wild speculation on my part, but clearly those who want to run foundry content simply because they want to will be able to...
Those who want to run foundry content because they want to get "paid", can foundry content by not queuing for it. As far as I'm concerned if anyone needs to be rewarded to run foundry content, they are running it for the wrong reasons.
If after a period of time it is determined the foundry is cost prohibitive, then it will likely be taken offline again... If however it is an attraction for new players or a vehicle for retaining veteran players who in addition to producing foundry content and running foundry content, also play (and pay) Neverwinter.
DD~
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putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
We all know one of the main issues (and there were many issues) with foundry was cryptic couldn't monetize it. What would be interesting would be to hear from cryptic how they thought they could monetize it when they spend all those resources developing and marketing it. Certainly someone had to justify its existence before the development even began.
Step 1: Why not update the foundry to enable players to create dungeons without any story.
Step 2: Use these dungeons and implement mobs and storyline to give us more content in return for less work from their side.
Step 3: Compensate Authors as a reward for designing the map.
Also in Step 1, the Foundry is kept separate from the game and only as a tool for cryptic to be able to use the author's work at free will. So, authors would already expect that their work is jointly owned by cryptic from the very beginning.
In Step 2, cryptic is only allowed to add mobs to prevent exploits as in the past. They can also add various mechanics to make the dungeon more difficult.
In Step 3, the compensation need not be great, because i think the acknowledgement for the author would matter the most.
Very good ideas here. I really do feel working on a newly updated Foundry incorporating many of these community ideas could bring more people back, and attract more new blood than ANYTHING Cryptic has done yet in the past 6 years.
Naturally, playerbase feedback is simply not essential to Cryptic at this juncture it seems. They are flying solo without a net. I would love to be proven wrong... however I think I know better at this point.
Still, I thank the MAJORITY of you who stayed focused on the topic, and I look forward to more discussion.
We all know one of the main issues (and there were many issues) with foundry was cryptic couldn't monetize it. What would be interesting would be to hear from cryptic how they thought they could monetize it when they spend all those resources developing and marketing it. Certainly someone had to justify its existence before the development even began.
Monetizing the Foundry
There were (and are) MANY WAYS to monetize the Foundry, they just never tried.
I gave them several surefire ways to make money back in alpha/beta days. It was just DOA. They barely lifted a finger and completely ignored the playerbase feedback on how they could better integrate it into the game so that it DID matter. I warned them if they made it an optional EXTRA thing, with no real hooks to Cryptic generated content, and without much better exploit monitoring/reviewing, and without monetarily supporting creators .. it would fail right out of the box. And it did.
There was ZERO CREATIVE TALENT behind the Foundry. And it showed.
Comments
Open source are not possible because of the Dungeons & Dragons IP, wotc and hasbro would never allow it. Bots are bad, period.
But the rest of the commentary was awesome!
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And good on you for that.
Took's book reading time has finally surpassed NW playtime for the first time since 2013.
So we can both thank big Tommy Foss for raising our intellect via Mod16-17.
But you only ran/will run Foundry quests if there was loot in it for you?
Okay. You be you. np.
But you are probably not representative of most true Foundry fans, *ITHO.
Not the loot expoiters of early mods or "Foundry Hour" once-daily AD grinders.
Took means actual fans of player-made content.
Most of us created and ran foundry for the depth of interesting stories, quirky dialogue and diverse adventures.
The AD and RP were a great bonus. Not gonna lie about that. But a pleasant afterthought. A cherry on the sundae.
"Will you login daily and "oh what foundry I'll go and play by myself there"? Spend there the same time an average player spends in the game? Will the common NW player login there? Will it do it more than few times?"
Took thinks most foundry creators and players WOULD go to a Foundry server as a regular break from Live Server grind and monotony for a few quick, fun adventures.
You wouldn't have to play Foundry Server alone anymore than you have to play preview server alone.
Took would drag a few friends along. Just for HAMSTERs and giggles.
"And how it will justify its existence as a business?"
It wouldn't.
Took was just supporting the OP's doomed speculation.
They'll never do any of this.
But we Hobbits are optimistic "ale mug half-full" folk.
*In Took's Humble Opinion
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
But that was a deviation from the norm, the vast majority wouldn't touch the foundry, at least not in any constant way. True, no argument there, and there were some very well done foundries, that was worth to do once.
But the handful of creators, that made those, are not the "large player base" they are very very small subgroup. You would, and I imagine that those that created, will also love to fiddle with a standalone server. But the question comes not to creators, but the users, the general player base.
The foundry was many years a click away inside the game, yet it was not used. While ofcourse I can't show you any numbers, only Cryptic has those, bit I hope there is no argument that once the incentive was removed, the foundries were ignored.
To the level that creators were forced to be creative to entice players to try their foundries. Pff, friends, who needs them..
Though I think that adding group based functionality, even as simple as team flags (group A, group
And better yet ability to flag PvP, and you get even if not complete or polished, but at least ideas for PvP maps, back when it was still relevant.
Not what many of the NW Foundry creators were oriented around, but historically, those types of game mods, do add engagement and retention and could justify the upkeep of the foundry as a whole. Fair enough
Though he also asked as a new NW lead, and that means business, lead business. Jokes aside, there is a huge gap that yet to be solved, on how to justify its existence and how it influences the player base in terms of engagement, and retention.
Not relevant now, but if it's hypothetical exercise, then to the end, and maybe somoene will bring ideas for that too.
Just because Neverwinter seems to be updated weekly, that doesn't mean the foundry needs to be.
And again, if the programming is right, foundry authors will be able to produce content that works - or it doesn't, there would be no need for constant checking for conformity and possible exploits - especially if there is little or no "profit" or cross game access to be gained by a player running the foundry.
I've played a few games where players were able to design and play limited ancillary content based on the actual game where little to nothing from the main game transmits to the player programmable part and nothing from the player programmable part transfers back to the primary game. A lot of people still found satisfaction in producing personal content just for being able to make it and for letting others experience it... there was no "reward" except for producing or experiencing new content.
Unlike you, I don't care to make supportable claims about "typical foundry" or "typical player", I don't have access to the kind of information that would take my comment beyond wild speculation on my part, but clearly those who want to run foundry content simply because they want to will be able to...
Those who want to run foundry content because they want to get "paid", can foundry content by not queuing for it. As far as I'm concerned if anyone needs to be rewarded to run foundry content, they are running it for the wrong reasons.
If after a period of time it is determined the foundry is cost prohibitive, then it will likely be taken offline again... If however it is an attraction for new players or a vehicle for retaining veteran players who in addition to producing foundry content and running foundry content, also play (and pay) Neverwinter.
Step 2: Use these dungeons and implement mobs and storyline to give us more content in return for less work from their side.
Step 3: Compensate Authors as a reward for designing the map.
Also in Step 1, the Foundry is kept separate from the game and only as a tool for cryptic to be able to use the author's work at free will. So, authors would already expect that their work is jointly owned by cryptic from the very beginning.
In Step 2, cryptic is only allowed to add mobs to prevent exploits as in the past. They can also add various mechanics to make the dungeon more difficult.
In Step 3, the compensation need not be great, because i think the acknowledgement for the author would matter the most.
Naturally, playerbase feedback is simply not essential to Cryptic at this juncture it seems. They are flying solo without a net. I would love to be proven wrong... however I think I know better at this point.
Still, I thank the MAJORITY of you who stayed focused on the topic, and I look forward to more discussion.
TYRS PALADIUM - A Premier Neverwinter Online Guild
No Drama. Camaraderie. TEAM Focus. That's the TYRS way. If that's your style, come join us!
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Monetizing the Foundry
There were (and are) MANY WAYS to monetize the Foundry, they just never tried.
I gave them several surefire ways to make money back in alpha/beta days. It was just DOA. They barely lifted a finger and completely ignored the playerbase feedback on how they could better integrate it into the game so that it DID matter. I warned them if they made it an optional EXTRA thing, with no real hooks to Cryptic generated content, and without much better exploit monitoring/reviewing, and without monetarily supporting creators .. it would fail right out of the box. And it did.
There was ZERO CREATIVE TALENT behind the Foundry. And it showed.
TYRS PALADIUM - A Premier Neverwinter Online Guild
No Drama. Camaraderie. TEAM Focus. That's the TYRS way. If that's your style, come join us!
Research our Guild here: Read our official Recruitment thread | Sign up here: Tyrs Guild Website! | NEVERWINTER GUILD LEADERS: Join the Fellowship!