The Return of the FOUNDRY

aandrethegiant · November 2019

So Understand that I FULLY UNDERSTAND that this would never happen. It's gone. And it was completely mismanaged from day one.

However, this IS a fantasy game at it's heart, and we are fantasy lovin' folk.

Instead of taking us BACK to 2012, I'm interested in pontificating ONE scenario where the Foundry is re-released in the current Neverwinter climate SUCCESSFULLY, in an updated form.

If YOU were the NEW Neverwinter lead game developer, and you were tasked with bringing the Foundry back, more powerful than ever, something today's Neverwinter player would be INTERESTED in, how would you proceed? What features would you leave the same, what features would you update, and what features would you add?

Please keep the thread positive... just having fun here and love watching the playerbase get creative.

hustin1 · November 2019

1. The editor would have instant access to *all* game assets rather than relying on a set list that requires a developer to periodically update. Perhaps it would dynamically scan what is available or perhaps it would use a list that gets automatically rebuilt during the build cycle. Either way, the human-in-the-loop part would be removed.

2. Every room would allow it's vertical coordinate to be set, perhaps in certain increments (e.g 20). The existing algorithm that automatically creates doors between adjacent rooms would also check to make sure that they had matching vertical coordinates along the common edge.

3. The available assets would include stairwells so that rooms at different vertical coordinates could be connected.

4. Users would be able to specify an X, Y, Z scaling factor to any asset that was placed.

5. Like assets, all armor visuals would automatically be available as a costume without the need for a dev to update a list.

6. Any asset that could be triggered (levers, doors) or interacted with could be connected to any event in the quest tree.

7. Timer objects would be available. They could be started or stopped by any event in the quest tree, and they could trigger any triggerable or interactable object (see #6 above).

8. A "change asset" event would be available. This would allow an asset to be dynamically moved, scaled, rotated, etc.

9. Boolean logic (AND, OR, NOT) would be available in the quest tree.

10. Bugfixes galore in the editor.

11. Devs would actively feature quests again **and** they would put special rewards in featured quests.

aandrethegiant · November 2019

hustin1 said:
1. - 11. snip

FANTASTIC.

And thank you for all your creative work from years past in the Foundry. Harper Chronicles: Cap Snatcher, Blood Magic, and Children of the Fey!

thefiresidecat · November 2019

I wouldn't be interested in it. I never was.

dionchi · November 2019

I would be interested in the resurrection of the Foundry, the ability of players to write and publish their own Neverwinter game scenarios, some of which (to be brutally honest) were every bit as good and possibly better than actual game content...

Now if certain modifications needed to be made to in content drops or rewards or author recognition and rewards to not negatively impact the game economy - so be it, but still allow players to vote on and give accolades to Foundry authors and maybe every few months Cryptic could provide a little recognition of their own for the Foundry authors voted to be the best by their peers.

aandrethegiant · November 2019

thefiresidecat said:
I wouldn't be interested in it. I never was.

Fully understand not everyone was. But I can tell you many many of the first guilds pitched a tent in Neverwinter because of the Foundry, and to this day some still linger.

Not for everyone of course.

aandrethegiant · November 2019

dionchi said:
I would be interested in the resurrection of the Foundry, the ability of players to write and publish their own Neverwinter game scenarios, some of which (to be brutally honest) were every bit as good and possibly better than actual game content...

Now if certain modifications needed to be made to in content drops or rewards or author recognition and rewards to not negatively impact the game economy - so be it, but still allow players to vote on and give accolades to Foundry authors and maybe every few months Cryptic could provide a little recognition of their own for the Foundry authors voted to be the best by their peers.

I can think of no better way to attract new blood (and returning blood) than a re-dedication to the Foundry, in a big way, with thorough pass that would include many updates. Again, not asking for it... just an observation.

sandukutupu · November 2019

My husband and I collaborated on this;

Make the Foundry a separate executable called by the system so updates to the Client never effect the Foundry. This keeps the Foundry available more often than not. Assassins Creed went with a web based editor that allows for PS4, XB1, and PC to share the content.
Make the Foundry work in offline editing mode, saving the scripts to a documentation area on HD, to be shared with other authors so you can have multiple authors work on a single project together. This can be uploaded to the server upon completion.
Remove the rating system, keep verbal reviews, eliminating the same stale stories floating to the surface.
All the Foundry NPC's stats should be based on percentages of the player or players within the quest.

When the Foundry Quest/Campaign is uploaded for publishing. The server side software runs 100 testing bots of a large variety through and sends a report back to the author about what passed and failed. For example; If 90% of the bots are getting stuck, the publish fails and the author is requested to repair it. It tests for possible cheats (shortcuts) to finish the quest too quickly. Then the dialog is scanned for any objectionable words, if found the author has to either replace the words or mark the content AO (adult only). This don't mean you get to write the Red Leather Princess Diaries, but allows for characters to get aggressive and real world dialog. A pirate is not going to shout, "Oh Fudge! You ruined my plans yet again.". Only after the quest has cleared and ready to be published the author is given a list of treasures to chose from based upon the difficulty rating.

If you don't fully understand any of the above, I am more than willing to expand upon it. However we both agree the Foundry is not coming back. I really wish it would come back. PWE doesn't want to budget the money for Cryptic to build it, so I don't plan to throw my money at China right now. If wishes were horses, beggars would ride for free.

zimxero · November 2019

When a reasonably good module/mission is created that could be seen as thematic to a campaign, it would be awesome to see cryptic freeze that asset and add it as a repeatable mission somewhere in the campaign, adding a small amount of campaign currency to the reward... making it a weekly mission.

dread4moor · November 2019

aandrethegiant said:
So Understand that I FULLY UNDERSTAND that this would never happen. It's gone. And it was completely mismanaged from day one.

However, this IS a fantasy game at it's heart, and we are fantasy lovin' folk.

Instead of taking us BACK to 2012, I'm interested in pontificating ONE scenario where the Foundry is re-released in the current Neverwinter climate SUCCESSFULLY, in an updated form.

If YOU were the NEW Neverwinter lead game developer, and you were tasked with bringing the Foundry back, more powerful than ever, something today's Neverwinter player would be INTERESTED in, how would you proceed? What features would you leave the same, what features would you update, and what features would you add?

Please keep the thread positive... just having fun here and love watching the playerbase get creative.

The Took would love this.
The Foundry and it's (broken) promises of unlimited content were the main reason Took came to NW in 2013.

Not gonna happen, ofc. Cryptic is moving NW to low-maintenance life-support, shifting attention to MtG.
The biggest expense for Cryptic with Foundry is constant maintenance and updates.
With every new patch or Mod they have to invest dozens of programmer FTEs fixing the Foundry.
Which they will not do b/c Foundry generates exactly zero revenue.

So, in the OP's positive spirit of fantasy, The Took would propose a simple solution:

Put Foundry on a separate server (like OwlBear) and freeze it on the current Mod.
No character transfers. No updates. No mods.

Foundry would run as an independent unchanging parallel server.
Low/no maintenance to the company.
Foundry creators would make all the content indefinitely.
Players would develop a cadre of "Foundry Only" toons.

That could work.

hustin1 · November 2019

There are plenty of ways to monetize the foundry. There's a whole thread on them. Just off the top of my head, I can think of a couple:

1. Use the Legendary Dragon Key mechanism. Devs can add a second chest to featured Foundry quests that gives unique rewards.

2. Add a new type of "enhancement". We have them for weapons and armor. Add *runestone* enhancement shards (that ONLY drop in featured Foundry quests) that could be upgraded to a rune enhancement that goes into a new special companion slot. This would drive ward sales. The new runestones wouldn't interfere with sales for any existing items so it's a net gain. The shards should only have a chance of dropping if a player spends a certain number of minutes in the quest to prevent cheating, or perhaps they should only drop from the aforementioned special 2nd chest.

You can also use it to attract new players:

1. Put a bunch of featured Foundry quests into a full-fledged campaign, complete with boons, etc. The idea is to draw in new players by giving them more to do.

2. Allow the Foundry editor to also be used to construct player housing. Make larger house types and additional house assets available in the Zen store.

dionchi · November 2019

hustin1 said:
There are plenty of ways to monetize the foundry. There's a whole thread on them. Just off the top of my head, I can think of a couple:

-snip-

That was part of the problem wasn't it, "monetizing" the foundry? Seems to me if the Foundry did return, with players being able to profit from running the Foundry instead of regular game content, we'd just be inviting back the same kind of problems that likely got the foundry closed down in the first place...

I still say remove any (or most) profit motivation for players running the Foundry, allow people to run the content for the pure joy of being able to run new and often interesting content. Those players who think they should be rewarded for running Foundry content can feel free not to queue up for the Foundry, those who just want to experience something different, support their friends, guildmates or whoever by running the Foundry are free do do so but not because of the promise of any kind of substantial reward.

Those who run Foundry content would still be able to critique and donate to the author if they were so inclined, but placing rewards for players in Foundry content that competes with regular game content would, I believe be problematic and may even serve to get the Foundry removed from the game - again.

¢¢

sobi · November 2019

Why was the foundry taken away?

The answers to bringing back the Foundry should try to eliminate the above by giving logical reasons on how the current Foundry can be better than its predecessor.

The only thing i can think of is that if bringing in a Foundry can allow the playerbase to create content which then can be implemented into the game by Cryptic, to no cost to them, then that would benefit everyone and at the same time increase player base.

sandukutupu · November 2019

sobi#1980 said:
Why was the foundry taken away?

The answers to bringing back the Foundry should try to eliminate the above by giving logical reasons on how the current Foundry can be better than its predecessor.

The only thing i can think of is that if bringing in a Foundry can allow the playerbase to create content which then can be implemented into the game by Cryptic, to no cost to them, then that would benefit everyone and at the same time increase player base.

Flat facts: Cryptic lead developer, Thomas Foss said, they had to shut it down because of the lack of resources (money? budget? time?) and was sorry it had to go. They turned it off promptly on April 11th. Then module 16 was produced and membership bled off to roughly 50% of what it was holding at all year. The Foundry was introduced in 2012 on Star Trek to be "tested", I purchased materials and character slots just to learn the Foundry. It is my opinion the Foundry was a gimmick to lure players to both games. Star Trek Foundry never got out of beta, they never got the features they deserved and yet STO authors made excellent stories up to April 11th when their beta version was shut down as well.

Opinion: I tend to believe the loss of the Foundry was part of the loss of membership. If they ever needed the Foundry, this is the time, when module 17 produced zero content.

Speculation and Wild Accusations: Players and opponents of the Foundry claim it was being botted, exploited, and without rewards no one really used it.

Let's think this through. Botted? Evil-doers build dungeon bots but I cannot see making a Foundry bot. The AI scripting on that must be awesome. Exploited? If there are no rewards (which they removed AD long ago) why build a bot or exploit something, if you cannot make any progress? If Cryptic shutdown features for being botted, the RQ would be toast.

To other comments, I have nothing against the players who are "not interested", "don't care", or "never played" the Foundry. Yet I wonder, how did it effect you mentally to reply in this thread at all? After @aandrethegiant respectfully laid down the topic guidelines and asked you not to do that? This tells me something about your personality I find very interesting.

micky1p00 · November 2019

sandukutupu said:

Opinion: I tend to believe the loss of the Foundry was part of the loss of membership. If they ever needed the Foundry, this is the time, when module 17 produced zero content.

I would assume that the fundamental changes to practically everything in the game made a bit more impact, than a removal of a foundry that remained to be used by at most what? a dozen users?

sandukutupu said:

Speculation and Wild Accusations: Players and opponents of the Foundry claim it was being botted, exploited, and without rewards no one really used it.

Now sure what speculation or wild accusations here, it's one of the most known things, specific maps were made with mobs in a room behind a small window. A player can stand safely and shoot them with hoards slotted and gain infinite RP, with only need to hold some at-will and press "F" to pick the stones (they were not dropping into inventory back then) at intervals. I will leave to the readers imagination how one may press "F" at fixed intervals for hours upon hours upon hours.

Entire maps were removed weekly, hoards got significant CD in a foundry (2min, you can look up old patch notes) all for speculations and wild accusations...

Also go through all the major alliances, channels, discords, or wherever you can find a statistical population sample, and ask who ran Foundry after the daily quest from Rhix was removed. And what is the frequency of those runs.

sandukutupu said:

Let's think this through. Botted? Evil-doers build dungeon bots but I cannot see making a Foundry bot. The AI scripting on that must be awesome. Exploited? If there are no rewards (which they removed AD long ago) why build a bot or exploit something, if you cannot make any progress? If Cryptic shutdown features for being botted, the RQ would be toast.

And yet, read above. The whole point of the foundry is that you can adjust the map instead of making a complex bot.

sandukutupu said:

To other comments, I have nothing against the players who are "not interested", "don't care", or "never played" the Foundry. Yet I wonder, how did it effect you mentally to reply in this thread at all? After @aandrethegiant respectfully laid down the topic guidelines and asked you not to do that? This tells me something about your personality I find very interesting.

I believe it will be better for everyone and the thread if we stick to replying about peoples posts, ideas, arguments, and so on, and not imply about anyone personality.

----

To the topic:

The foundry was alive for years upon years. Did it bring the great influx and usage? Obviously not, especially after the RAD removal.

Even older, classical D&D players, who still play in groups or various platforms like roll20 (and others, I forgot the name) did not play the foundry. (Anecdotal, but I know many such players)

There is a question of the chicken or the egg, if more resources were invested, would it attracted more players? Instead of If it attracted more players, would more resources been invested,,,

The starting question will be why it didn't succeed.

Quality* - There were some very well made foundries, some funny, some creative, some I would say more engaging and interesting than campaign story lines. But I would say the vast majority was not. I will be polite and just leave it at bad.
There are many reasons, people do not have the time to polish, Fondry limitations, lack of experience and players just want to give it a try, and many more. But at the end, we get hundreds if not thousands of quests, without a good way to pick a good one.

Repeatability, Immersion and character progression - The majority of the player base are here to play an MMORPG, a fact that at least seems that being neglected. MMORPGs foundation (one of) is the endless chase of character improvement and progression. This is not mainly an exploration game, or mainly story driven (Unfortunately. Even with the D&D IP, this is the fact of life here. The story is not significant, or "flushed out").

Doing a foundry quest had several issues, in most cases, and more so, ironically, with the most successful foundries, they were not connected to the overall story line. They are limited in scope and length (understandable, a player can only do so much in free time)
And there is no reason to replay a quest or a chapter group.

So we get disjointed short stories, that do not give immersion vs the overall story line, do not help with character progression i in the overall game and no incentive to replay them.

Technical limitation - The foundry itself lacked basic tools and was a broken mess. Hats off to those that managed to do nice things with it, but still, it was not up to the standards of modding tools even of the time, 6 years ago.

Solutions?

Usually the trivial option is to get some of the better quests, and integrate those into the game, while compensating the authors from some ZEN, to whatever.
In some other platforms, where players make "hats" and fashion items, the authors get portion of the sales, but there is a lot of grievance about the numbers and what it amounts to.

In any case the issue here is that in this case we have story driven player generated content - this, as opposed to maps, game modding, and fashion adds legal complexity, the author must transfer the rights, but there is no way to know if it's original idea or not. In cases of game mods, and fashion, it doesn't matter, but in story it does.
In other games, with similar story driven capability it's limited to the scope of the game world, your story happens in the world of the game. In NW the same has an issue, Cryptic do not hold the rights for the world, it's WotC, with their own set of rules, licenses, guidelines and approvals that become more important when moving from a game in the basement or fanfiction to a commercial platform.

So can this happen? Probably not.

That is without even touching the other aspects, of rewards and incentives, how to actually filter the good foundries and so on.

dionchi · November 2019

If all (or most) profit incentives are removed from the Foundry, why would it matter if anyone turned a bot loose? If items can't be brought out of the Foundry into regular game play, why would it matter if the mechanics of the Foundry don't exactly coincide with the mechanics of regular game content?

The Foundry should be a completely separate animal from regular Neverwinter game play and I'm sure the developers could tweak the Foundry build structure to avoid any bleed over from the Foundry to the regular game...

Now if it is the case that every Foundry submission needs to have a Cryptic programmer go over it with a fine toothed comb to make sure it doesn't negatively impact Neverwinter, I can see how having the Foundry back would be cost and time prohibitive. But if Foundry authors were able to post content that in no way (or only minimally) impacted Neverwinter, why wouldn't they be able to bring back the Foundry?

micky1p00 · November 2019

dionchi said:
If all (or most) profit incentives are removed from the Foundry, why would it matter if anyone turned a bot loose? If items can't be brought out of the Foundry into regular game play, why would it matter if the mechanics of the Foundry don't exactly coincide with the mechanics of regular game content?

The Foundry should be a completely separate animal from regular Neverwinter game play and I'm sure the developers could tweak the Foundry build structure to avoid any bleed over from the Foundry to the regular game...

Now if it is the case that every Foundry submission needs to have a Cryptic programmer go over it with a fine toothed comb to make sure it doesn't negatively impact Neverwinter, I can see how having the Foundry back would be cost and time prohibitive. But if Foundry authors were able to post content that in no way (or only minimally) impacted Neverwinter, why wouldn't they be able to bring back the Foundry?

Who would use it if there are no incentives. It has been around for several years without any reward or incentive to use, except the low chance of not bad story, which usually didn't happen.
The vast majority of the player base ignored it completely, foundry makers ran contest with their items and rewards to incentivize people to run.
You are competing over a players limited time, the foundry experience must be superb for a player to forgo their progress for that time.
This is not the typical foundry, and not the typical player.

Software needs upkeep, the game engine is being updated, it's not the same as used 10 years ago (or whatever) in CO, meaning all dependencies need to be updated, that means foundry.

Making sure it actually works (and mostly it didn't) takes IT / OPs time.

Servers cost money, opening foundry instances is spinning up hardware or loading on already running servers.

It all adds up. There is no 0 costs to this even if no one uses it. It costs just to make sure it actually works.

micky1p00 · November 2019

BTW one thing that map creation / modding tools are very good for, and will not have license issue, conflicts and can be integrated easily into the game is PvP or various group contests, races, timed challenges and so on...

These are not story driven, very popular, and new games were born by modding / adding to existing games.

It's a shame though that the foundry as is, lacked the capability to have more complex logic, and has only the "story driven" aspect. And the entire running mechanics didn't support tagging teams, groups, free for all, timings and so on.

Also, regardless, at the core as a concept the foundry is a solo experience, while the game or DnD is a group experience hence, IMO, the failure even for veteran DnD players.

To add, the lack of an observer mode, in general in the game kills the private aspect of the foundry that could be used in guilds, groups, or various community contests.

dread4moor · November 2019

Re: comments about RP exploits...

This is why a separate Foundry server would work.
Toons would be exclusive to the Foundry.
Removes all exploit potential. No RP no "live server" gear.
And could easily be used for group experiences.

zimxero · November 2019

micky1p00 said:

sandukutupu said:

Solutions?

Usually the trivial option is to get some of the better quests, and integrate those into the game, while compensating the authors from some ZEN, to whatever.
In some other platforms, where players make "hats" and fashion items, the authors get portion of the sales, but there is a lot of grievance about the numbers and what it amounts to.

In any case the issue here is that in this case we have story driven player generated content - this, as opposed to maps, game modding, and fashion adds legal complexity, the author must transfer the rights, but there is no way to know if it's original idea or not. In cases of game mods, and fashion, it doesn't matter, but in story it does.
In other games, with similar story driven capability it's limited to the scope of the game world, your story happens in the world of the game. In NW the same has an issue, Cryptic do not hold the rights for the world, it's WotC, with their own set of rules, licenses, guidelines and approvals that become more important when moving from a game in the basement or fanfiction to a commercial platform.

So can this happen? Probably not.

That is without even touching the other aspects, of rewards and incentives, how to actually filter the good foundries and so on.
I think you are being obsessive over the 'copyright - ownership' issue. Any foundry mission belongs to cryptic, but credit/awards/kudos to authors would certainly be in order. As far as copyright... this is nearly impossible to challenge legally now-a-days for ideas. It requires clear forgery of art, music, or written creations to prove copyright infringement. The gut test is all thats needed. If it feels like it might be copyright... avoid it. Otherwise... no worries. The worst that can happen is they could get a request (or order) to pull a piece of content.

hustin1 · November 2019

This is why in my second post I made sure to mention featured Foundry quests. Since a Foundry quest has to compete for players' time, there does have to be a reason beyond mere storytelling and setting to get players to run them. This automatically means that botters would try to cheat, so there has to be some sort of gatekeeper mechanism (e.g. featuring) create two tiers of rewards. Special rewards (AD, transmutes, fashion, unique items, etc.) should only come from quests that have been vetted.

One of my gripes over the years has been that no one at Cryptic had featured any quests whatsoever since 2015, and why the final point in my first post above was that Cryptic personnel would have to feature quests and place rewards in them that would draw in players. I really do believe that to be a vital part of any user-generated content mechanism in the game. We can't realistically expect more than a tiny fraction of players to take time out to run Foundry quests that don't make it worth their time in terms of loot. A tree won't grow without water, and only Cryptic can supply that water.

From what I saw, the major problem with the Foundry from Cryptic's standpoint was in keeping it running: it wasn't well documented and the people who really understood how it worked had all left. It meant that keeping it operational consumed more resources than it had in the past, and apparently its construction was somewhat fragile. Could it return? I guess it depends on what Cryptic has been doing on the server side of things. They've mentioned rewriting the engine, but that can mean a lot of things. To me the question is, can they put together a more robust mechanism that can spool up a quest and its associated maps on the fly, and have both the mechanism and its associated data automatically remain synchronized with other software updates? (In my opnion, the best way is to make Foundry quests always look like "normal" quests the second they are published, from a data standpoint so that the process is as transparent as possible, but maybe that's why republishing was always required at certain times). I think it's possible but it requires someone there who can look at their architecture as a whole and figure out how to make it happen -- and then thoroughly document it.

micky1p00 · November 2019

dread4moor said:
Re: comments about RP exploits...

This is why a separate Foundry server would work.
Toons would be exclusive to the Foundry.
Removes all exploit potential. No RP no "live server" gear.
And could easily be used for group experiences.

I wish it would have been that easy, and that's great, as a sandbox, but who will play that?

It means to upkeep an entire server, with the upkeep involved, for whom? And how it will justify its existence as a business?

Will you login daily and "oh what foundry I'll go and play by myself there"? Spend there the same time an average player spends in the game? Will the common NW player login there? Will it do it more than few times?

I don't know about you, but I will open goodreads and look for something I haven't read yet, as a better investment of my time. The fact is, that without rewards, the foundry did die, it died when Rhix quests were removed, and in practice even earlier, when people ran it mindlessly only for that RAD. So that still needs a solution.

There is no monetization path here. No retention, as the players do not create the critical mass or in-game community (except the authors, but I refer to the users ofc).

So on one hand it solves a technical issue, but on the other, it kills all the incentive and benefits that a foundry could provide by being part of the game.

It will be easier to just use one of standalone game creators, forgot the names, or create campaign for one of the online DnD sites. Or mod one of the more popular games.

The foundry was a small part of the larger construct, the NW game, separating those now creates a whole new bag of problems that need solutions.

hustin1 · November 2019

I don't think a separate Foundry server would work. In fact, I don't think there should be a separate Foundry "mechanism". When you publish a quest, it should look just like any other instanced quest as far as the server is concerned. Foundry maps should look to the server like any other instanced map: the map of my redcap village should look just like the map of, say, the Dread Spire, at least from the standpoint of the data and how it gets spooled up. The conversion from Foundry quest and map(s) should come right at publishing time. This also means that when the underlying data format/schema is changed the Foundry quests will have to undergo data migration, but so would the existing official quests and maps. It would all be part of the same process. The result *should* be a system that is as maintenance-free and transparent (from a technical standpoint) as possible.

micky1p00 · November 2019

hustin1 said:
This is why in my second post I made sure to mention featured Foundry quests. Since a Foundry quest has to compete for players' time, there does have to be a reason beyond mere storytelling and setting to get players to run them. This automatically means that botters would try to cheat, so there has to be some sort of gatekeeper mechanism (e.g. featuring) create two tiers of rewards. Special rewards (AD, transmutes, fashion, unique items, etc.) should only come from quests that have been vetted.

One of my gripes over the years has been that no one at Cryptic had featured any quests whatsoever since 2015, and why the final point in my first post above was that Cryptic personnel would have to feature quests and place rewards in them that would draw in players. I really do believe that to be a vital part of any user-generated content mechanism in the game. We can't realistically expect more than a tiny fraction of players to take time out to run Foundry quests that don't make it worth their time in terms of loot. A tree won't grow without water, and only Cryptic can supply that water.

I agree, and long long long ago, it was one of the things I was suggesting/posting too.

Back then, I was of the opinion that sitting someone to vet, upgrade (if needed) the quests and lock them (to disallow changes) was the way to go, and as I've wrote above, I've brought the same example back then that authors can be rewarded in some symbolic+ way in addition to credit, and it's a win win. Assuming that the entire system has more benefits than the cost of that dev involved and the general upkeep of the relevant system.

Now, after years of watching streams, and watching how things unfold, I believe that integrating into the main story line is not something they can do.
Just making quests "featured" they can, but creating proper rewards in terms of gear and keep it updated, they can't do in practice (just in terms of time and resources). Unless some specialized system of rewards created, with a capability to be upgraded easily and remain relevant in future mods. (I've suggested one elsewhere that does fit that criteria). Yet, without such system, they struggle to create relevant rewards for the limited content released each mod, and multiple changes being made to make the creation of chase items easier, for example the salvage removal.

Is it possible in general? Yes, I believe so, is it possible now, and previously, no. still no. Look even at professions, a major overhaul of the entire system and it still can't be kept up to date.

hustin1 said:

From what I saw, the major problem with the Foundry from Cryptic's standpoint was in keeping it running: it wasn't well documented and the people who really understood how it worked had all left. It meant that keeping it operational consumed more resources than it had in the past, and apparently its construction was somewhat fragile. Could it return? I guess it depends on what Cryptic has been doing on the server side of things. They've mentioned rewriting the engine, but that can mean a lot of things. To me the question is, can they put together a more robust mechanism that can spool up a quest and its associated maps on the fly, and have both the mechanism and its associated data automatically remain synchronized with other software updates? (In my opnion, the best way is to make Foundry quests always look like "normal" quests the second they are published, from a data standpoint so that the process is as transparent as possible, but maybe that's why republishing was always required at certain times). I think it's possible but it requires someone there who can look at their architecture as a whole and figure out how to make it happen -- and then thoroughly document it.

Yes, part of it is:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technical_debt

But it seems like that the foundry used a forked version of the game engine. This means that updating the game engine, which is done constantly, has a good chance of breaking the foundry or more correctly create compatibility issue.
In a software company, there will be a merge and testing process where changes merged both ways and tested automatically. , but even then if such thing existed, which I'm sure it doesn't and will take large amount of resources to create, if a change works on the game engine but creates an issue on the foundry side, it means someone needs to fix it, which is time of the core team, their most expensive team..
So they came to the conclusion that that just not worth it anymore.

wilbur626 · November 2019

> @hustin1 said:
> I don't think a separate Foundry server would work. In fact, I don't think there should be a separate Foundry "mechanism". When you publish a quest, it should look just like any other instanced quest as far as the server is concerned. Foundry maps should look to the server like any other instanced map: the map of my redcap village should look just like the map of, say, the Dread Spire, at least from the standpoint of the data and how it gets spooled up. The conversion from Foundry quest and map(s) should come right at publishing time. This also means that when the underlying data format/schema is changed the Foundry quests will have to undergo data migration, but so would the existing official quests and maps. It would all be part of the same process. The result *should* be a system that is as maintenance-free and transparent (from a technical standpoint) as possible.

Could the foundry somehow be integrated with guild/alliance mechanics, thus providing players interested in playing the content a reason to joining guild/alliances with foundry content creators?

sandukutupu · November 2019

dread4moor said:
Re: comments about RP exploits...

This is why a separate Foundry server would work.
Toons would be exclusive to the Foundry.
Removes all exploit potential. No RP no "live server" gear.
And could easily be used for group experiences.

I agree a sandbox server would work to some degree. But for those who want virtual rewards (AD, XP, RP), profit for Cryptic, and zero exploits, that system can exist. As I stated in the first posting of how the Foundry could be repaired -- this is what the OP wishes to hear -- the items would only be placed after it has been cleared for publishing. Thus to explain the reward system a little more detail. Software would need to be created on the server and this would cost manpower at the very least. The software would stress test the script (which can be done by a computer in minutes) to ensure no exploits are used. Next, the Foundry looks at an equation of time, mobs, bosses, and damage from NPCs versus treasure value allotment and player damage. This is not done by any player, it is automated by the server software. The options for treasure listings would be usable items, XP, gold, and AD. The treasures would never vary (nothing random). It would only be the author's choice, which list of treasures would be placed in the foundry. For example; if they chose to go gold heavy then the mobs and bosses would drop more gold, AD heavy would have more AD in the chest at the end, and usable items would have better equipment suitable for the player, etc.. Checks and balances, therefore no issues with rewards.

Next issue how does Cryptic profit? As you might have read above, in my first post, I joined STO in 2012 and cash purchased my characters needed for the Foundry, and bought the material (10,000 dithyum I think?) with cash money. STO Foundry was very different. Cryptic should have known Foundry authors come from all walks of life. I met doctors, lawyers, engineers, IT professionals, US government workers, and more in the years I used the Foundry. Big salary workers who said they would pay cash money for a "working Foundry". Unfortunately I think they all lost faith and trust with Cryptic over the many years they did nothing to improve the Foundry. They should have done this years ago, but the way to make profit is to offer 2 Foundry versions. Foundry Lite is the free version for anyone to dabble with, while Foundry Master would cost cash money (not zen). It would be up to Cryptic at that time what price tag or subscription to place on the Master version. The Master version would have perks the Lite version doesn't. Master would offer permanence of content, Lite version would keep content for 90 days and if the author doesn't update in 90 days the story is archived to be deleted. I think 90 days is enough to say you didn't just go off on vacation. Master would be allowed full range of custom maps and models, Lite would use adventure zone maps only and limited models. Master would allow for treasure allotment by the author, Lite would be at the mercy of the automation process. Master would allow uncensored content marked "adult language", Lite would be censored. Unique Foundry items could be sold to the authors in the zen store as well.

As for exploits, they have been covered. Should they attempt to make a quick Foundry, mail system would return a message like;
Publishing Failed. 98% of the automation bots made it through your quest in 3 mins. Minimum time for any quest is 15 minutes. There was 0% conflicts in your quest, a minimum of 20% combat is required. There was too little travel in your quest, please check your exit. This system would assist real authors and cheaters would get blocked. If the author set up a field of mobs to collect gold, RP, or anything as exploit, the server side software would not allow them to collect anything more than what they deserve. Checks and balances in place, the system then supports itself with minimal maintenance, the costs are supported by the purchase of the Master version.

micky1p00 · November 2019

sandukutupu said:
The software would stress test the script (which can be done by a computer in minutes) to ensure no exploits are used. Next, the Foundry looks at an equation of time, mobs, bosses, and damage from NPCs versus treasure value allotment and player damage. This is not done by any player, it is automated by the server software.

In one post you point out the complexity of making a bot, yet this is orders of magnitude more complex. If it was this simple, the entirety of NW and the gaming world would have been exploit free.
Yet, the most simple thing, a room with imp portals was the best source of RP for a long while. When RP was not free at all.

The suggested software is so far beyond the scope of Cryptic, that it is not even in the same software category. Perhaps if they can loan a division from Google...
This is like suggesting a car mechanic to make design and build the next moon lander with a budget of a family car.

sandukutupu said:

Next issue how does Cryptic profit? As you might have read above, in my first post, I joined STO in 2012 and cash purchased my characters needed for the Foundry, and bought the material (10,000 dithyum I think?) with cash money. STO Foundry was very different. Cryptic should have known Foundry authors come from all walks of life. I met doctors, lawyers, engineers, IT professionals, US government workers, and more in the years I used the Foundry. Big salary workers who said they would pay cash money for a "working Foundry".

That's all great, but that doesn't mean a sustainable business plan.
Several thousand unemployed players with addiction to lockboxes is. Or just regular player who pay on average 20$ per month to get some QoL or ahead.

Being rich or willing to pay is not an indicator. Game revenue is big numbers game, how many users, not authors will this attracts?

sandukutupu said:

Unfortunately I think they all lost faith and trust with Cryptic over the many years they did nothing to improve the Foundry. They should have done this years ago, but the way to make profit is to offer 2 Foundry versions. Foundry Lite is the free version for anyone to dabble with, while Foundry Master would cost cash money (not zen). It would be up to Cryptic at that time what price tag or subscription to place on the Master version. The Master version would have perks the Lite version doesn't. Master would offer permanence of content, Lite version would keep content for 90 days and if the author doesn't update in 90 days the story is archived to be deleted. I think 90 days is enough to say you didn't just go off on vacation. Master would be allowed full range of custom maps and models, Lite would use adventure zone maps only and limited models. Master would allow for treasure allotment by the author, Lite would be at the mercy of the automation process. Master would allow uncensored content marked "adult language", Lite would be censored. Unique Foundry items could be sold to the authors in the zen store as well.

So the few Authors that willing to do content for practically free also need to pay for the privilege? And without any rights on their own creation.

Unity engine is for free, assets can be bought for small change on the relevant sites. Special things can be commissioned on sites like Fiver.
Who in their right mind pay for NW foundry over the unlimited world out there... The only thing that NW brings is potential audience, yet it is still potential, the participation issue is still not resolved.

sandukutupu said:

As for exploits, they have been covered.

Not even by a long shot.

sandukutupu said:

Should they attempt to make a quick Foundry, mail system would return a message like;
Publishing Failed. 98% of the automation bots made it through your quest in 3 mins. Minimum time for any quest is 15 minutes. There was 0% conflicts in your quest, a minimum of 20% combat is required. There was too little travel in your quest, please check your exit. This system would assist real authors and cheaters would get blocked. If the author set up a field of mobs to collect gold, RP, or anything as exploit, the server side software would not allow them to collect anything more than what they deserve. Checks and balances in place, the system then supports itself with minimal maintenance, the costs are supported by the purchase of the Master version.

Not even close to feasible. Not in the same galaxy.

iandarksword · November 2019

There are 6 years worth of suggestions, 6 years worth of ideas, 6 years worth of offered solutions, in the old Foundry forum. The powers that be, should they ever regain interest, have but to review the many already available posts. The vast majority of them were left to float like a githyanki ship in limbo. Communication was never there when it came down to it, the forums were, well exactly what they are now, just a sounding board for frustrated individuals. It left many feeling like they were just screaming into a void, unanswered, unwanted by their peers. It was sad to become the laughing stock of the game, especially considering the amount of time many folks put in to provide themselves with some form of creative outlet. There really isn't anything to be said that hasn't been suggested, and then left to be forgotten by now. Could've, would've, should've went out the window when they pulled the plug.

zimxero · November 2019

If Cryptic sold a Founders subscription on the side, it might pay for some work on it and some server space.

* $5 a month for unlimited foundry editing/creation, & access to test the creations of other members.
*
* One 'best of" module/mission would be added to each campaign over time, awarding a small amount of campaign currency.
*
* Campagn foundry missions would be limited to one run per week. VIP members would receive 250 rAD bonus award for completing them, per VIP rank.

lordtweety · November 2019

They could open source the foundry.

Release an open source version of NW. If it was open sourced I might even be interested in working on it. And I'd bet money on the open source version becoming far more active in development than the Cryptic version. More stable and far less bugs. Better story arcs too, I played through a few foundry quests and some of them were more interesting than the NW campaign.

Of course that ain't ever gonna happen though.

tecmyst · November 2019

If they ever wanted to bring back Foundry and made it to live for long years to come, it would need to be integral part of the Neverwinter not some side server/app that would operate somewhere apart from main game.
Last years of Foundry looked just like disconected from NWO.
No rewards, no support, no nothin, only bounch of enthusiasts that keept it on life support system.
Foundry could be a complementary if for example add extra bonus to refining AD, so let say daily it would be possible to refine even 200k rAD per day per account. Foundry would give extra bonus to refine where dungeons/quests would give the rAD that could be refined. That way we get a synergy of both entities.
Now the problem arrise, what Foundry missions should be eliagble to gain this bonuses but without botting/cheating possible. For that there could be group of enthusiast, that already shown their support, and they would feature those quets and Community Moderators could exercise custody. Acrose months there could be many good mission added to base list of quest allowing to get this extra reward. In time list would get bigger. To prevent from farming certain quests on and on, lets make 1 Foundry mission bonus reset after a month.
We can go on with diffrent kinds of rewards for authors, just look on the ongoing project for streamers/content creators.
As for Cryptic monetization of Foundry others stated nice points over the years.
Of crouse it's just a pinch of the top of ice berg.

For me personally Foundry was something that stands out from other MMOs so it made me check NWO, but I stayed for Forgotten Realms theme and combat! I know the chances for having Foundry back are slimmer than slim but you know how it is with hope (;

The Return of the FOUNDRY

Comments