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Tanks and DC´s need a big update asap

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  • tom#6998 tom Member Posts: 952 Arc User
    edited September 2019

    I solo cn with my warlock both dps and heal specs. Thats no point of reference. In lomm you need tank and heal, same for tomm, tong, elol, manycoins. When a tank or heal Is good enough it can carry a bad group just like a dps would do, and that is when pugs realize you did a good job

    u dont need a tank and heal for anything besides ToMM (altough, Lomm without a healer is pretty HAMSTER, but doable)
  • tempus86#1158 tempus86 Member Posts: 165 Arc User
    tom#6998 said:

    I think the point is tanks are not tanky enough and Dungeon enemies don't do enough damage to justify the difference especially when you can just shift/dodge attacks as a DPS/healer.
    When it boils down to it, the only real difference between a tank and the other roles in terms of survival is health. Even block isn't really mitigation, its just another form of Temp hitpoints. You still take just as much damage for the most part as a dps or healer does, just with a much larger health pool.
    Defence/damage reduction and Deflect caps are pretty easy for anyone to cap, especially with the new gear which is available to anyone and these are the only real sources of mitigation and I think this is the main source of the problem, there just isn't enough core mechanics/abilities built into tanks right now that make them stand apart enough as "the tank"
    Im sure the "but what about TOMM" argument will be raised and sure as it stands now you need tanks for it, but that's kinda the exception to the rule and will no doubt change down the line as gear improves, so it doesn't really negate the point.

    Up until recently LoMM was the hardest content available along with watchers and they have been doable without a tank for months. This is a massive problem if the game is intending to use the trinity model when 1 of the trinity can so easily be replaced.

    There is not enough tank only gear. there is not enough tank only mitigation. Too many attacks can be dodged ( which tanks cannot do) enemies in dungeons should melt none tanks in seconds. I Wouldn't dream of trying to do heroic dungeons or raids without a tank, even a badly geared tank back when playing WoW because even the best geared dps got obliterated.

    Tanks should be vital and with more unique stats/caps. As it stands they are not

    the obvious solution is to make content alot harder and a lot deadlier. Everything in this game besides ToMM is a total walk in the park, so no wonder noone needs tanks and healers.
    That's partly what I was suggesting ,but by itself doesn't really address the fundamental problem which is tanks are basically just a dps with more more health less damage, and less mitigation since they cannot dodge.
    Trobriand is a good example. last phase, he charges up his hand blast attack, tank raises shield, stamina gets wiped out in 1 hit, and now cant block for a while, where as a dps can just shift, be 100% immune to all damage and can do this for every hit pretty much.
    The fact that dps can dodge and tanks cannot in this game has always puzzled me since its usually a core mechanic of every tank in every MMO ive ever played. Tanks need more mitigation than dps. be that a stat exclusive to them, EG deflection being a tank only stat, or by reducing the damage reduction cap for no tank classes to 25% or something and adjust unavoidable damage to match. or something else entirely but something to make tanks vital, not mostly optional.
  • rafamarques#5700 rafamarques Member Posts: 155 Arc User
    edited September 2019
    in fact we have some obvious and fair "solution" (or justice)

    Today, tanks receiving extra threat, +40% hp and DEAL 10% LESS DAMAGE. that means, my damage progression aways receive some penalty.

    so, the first thing to do is... we should have penaltys to dps too. for example, -40% hp and threat reduction. so, your defensive progression will be penalized too but tanks will be able to protect you more easily. THAT is a real scaling.

    ps: oh, but that penalty of tanks is compared to your dps patch, they alread receive, by theory, 40% less hp. maybe, but should be more deep. why? because, not me, but the game practice, the facts saying that.

    do that and lets see if we dont put that "dps heroes" in your box, waiting for a tank/healer to cast a single atwill.

    Post edited by rafamarques#5700 on
  • rafaeldarafaelda Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 662 Arc User
    I stopped playing my Figther as tank not because is takes to long to kill stuff is because tanking is boring now, the passive treath system the tried to place didnt worked and instead of bring the old marks they created a half way system making your weak attacks count more treath wise...

    this already make a tank to spent more time developing theyr offence since they need some dmg to hold enemies attention, i'm a old time PVE GF that used to hold lots of enemies with my shield whille my partners would hit them not stop never cared to dps my work was to hold the line... (fun times)
    my main dmg back then was reflected dmg and shielded atwills, cant have that anymore...

    sometimes i still fill tank spot for alliance private runs (not in LOMM) i can handle most places with some heals,

    Anyway if we get CN or other "esasy run" (that change with the party) and we have good heals i can change my power set to not hold that much agro and do some dmg, of course i will not be a DPS but is better than stay as needeless tank...

    Is good to have the option to make dmg yes, but if we get the option to go full dps what we will find is the old DPS GF in queues in a tank spot, leading to no tank runs in places that arent CN again... i believe we all remember that and wasnt nice...
  • aerhythia#3255 aerhythia Member Posts: 173 Arc User

    Yes I understand your point, but buffing wont come again because it causes more problems than it solves. 4 buffers + 1 DPS meta is gone, forever. So if you are going to give feedback, try a different thing.

    And scaling is part of the problem. Is just a bad patch to not upgrade the dungeons to the new level cap. Plain and simple. A bad solution that again comes with more problems that it solves. If every dungeon is hard enough to need a tank and a healer, you wont be here complaining that you are useless in X dungeon.

    Support having access to minor buffs doesn't create any problems, especially with the rework of buff formula. What caused issues in the past is having each buff multiplicative with each other since at some point it meant that is was always better to bring another buffer then another DPS. Besides most if not all buffs are so small (like 2 - 5%) that even if all classes were able to buff we'd barely be at the combined buff magnitude of one average buffer in earlier mods.

    What would be a challenge is a buff that partially depends on stats, if devs were to follow this approach to make gear more relevant... or actually be on gear.
  • rafamarques#5700 rafamarques Member Posts: 155 Arc User
    edited September 2019
    The fact of the matter is, the potency to heal does not increase by much from mod to mod and the required healing potency does not increase much, due to there being no "counter stats" for healing. A solution to this would be to make defense/deflect reduce healing potency, forcing healers to stack arp/accuracy to counter it, but this is such an unpleasant idea that I do not really wish to entertain it. Think of it this way, when ToMM was introduced, a DpS needed to increase their Accuracy, Armour Penetration and Combat Advantage by 12,000 each in order to remain relevant, in addition to beefing up their defenses. A BiS healer in terms of healing capability only needs to ensure they meet the defensive caps, nothing else changes. There is no real gear progression.


    ...that can be a nightmare for tanks, but if count only to dps - as a negative mechanic or positive mechanic (countering negative status) for non dps - that is not a bad solution.

    note: dps classes aways dont have tradeoffs in your stats evolution. now, improving or not your defensive status, they will need tanks and healers more than before.


  • tempus86#1158 tempus86 Member Posts: 165 Arc User

    The OP of this thread is correct although there is no real easy solution without either changing the way gear is currently implemented in Neverwinter, changing the way heals are calculated or changing the support role to offer more than just tanking/healing. It is a bigger issue for healers than for tanks, since at least for tanks as an enemies ratings increase, you need higher counter stats to deal with them. For healers you have an obvious problem, at some point, you will either be able to overheal members of your party or you will cap out on power+outgoing healing bonus. Once you have reached either of these points, there is really nothing left to invest in. You can make your character more defensive, but that is it. Furthermore, as new content is added to the game and ratings on enemies become higher, the problem becomes more and more pronounced because whilst very little power is added to gear, a lot of the other ratings are added which does nothing for your healers, so they effectively have the same character between every single module.

    The fact of the matter is, the potency to heal does not increase by much from mod to mod and the required healing potency does not increase much, due to there being no "counter stats" for healing. A solution to this would be to make defense/deflect reduce healing potency, forcing healers to stack arp/accuracy to counter it, but this is such an unpleasant idea that I do not really wish to entertain it. Think of it this way, when ToMM was introduced, a DpS needed to increase their Accuracy, Armour Penetration and Combat Advantage by 12,000 each in order to remain relevant, in addition to beefing up their defenses. A BiS healer in terms of healing capability only needs to ensure they meet the defensive caps, nothing else changes. There is no real gear progression.

    This isn't just limited to healers either, but to everyone because of the caps being too easy to hit and the way power is in the formula.
    Damage and healing only really have one open ended method of progressing, which is power and that suffering diminishing returns instead of being linear. Crit is capped way to quickly, and there are very limited sources of crit Sev.
    I think someone did a pretty good video on the problem back when m16 was still in preview. and while the whole counterstat system makes balance easier, it actually just makes progression go backwards, each increase you have to hobble your power to reach the new caps, meaning you actually do less damage/healing going into a new tier until they release new items to compensate. so once you already have full leg insignias and rank 15s and the mount bonus you want ( which are all totally separate from actual content, its all zen/diamonds) you stagnate.

    So if the only source of increase is power on gear, or a new weapon set, and im sure they gone on record saying the ToMM weapons will be the best available for a long time, and the increase we got from 950-1000/1010 gear pieces is roughly equal in the next tier, we gonna get maybe 5-7k power increase replacing every gear piece to say 1050ilevel ( or whatever the next tier is gonna be), that's a measly 1-2% increase at best. and that's assuming the new items have decent bonus's which looking at the 1010 successor stuff, isn't likely.
    So without a totally new damage formula and cap system, the only real way to have any real progression is to have triple enchant slots on new gear. but this is only going to delay the problem, not solve it
  • onlymatonlymat Member Posts: 317 Arc User

    The OP of this thread is correct although there is no real easy solution without either changing the way gear is currently implemented in Neverwinter, changing the way heals are calculated or changing the support role to offer more than just tanking/healing. It is a bigger issue for healers than for tanks, since at least for tanks as an enemies ratings increase, you need higher counter stats to deal with them. For healers you have an obvious problem, at some point, you will either be able to overheal members of your party or you will cap out on power+outgoing healing bonus. Once you have reached either of these points, there is really nothing left to invest in. You can make your character more defensive, but that is it. Furthermore, as new content is added to the game and ratings on enemies become higher, the problem becomes more and more pronounced because whilst very little power is added to gear, a lot of the other ratings are added which does nothing for your healers, so they effectively have the same character between every single module.

    The fact of the matter is, the potency to heal does not increase by much from mod to mod and the required healing potency does not increase much, due to there being no "counter stats" for healing. A solution to this would be to make defense/deflect reduce healing potency, forcing healers to stack arp/accuracy to counter it, but this is such an unpleasant idea that I do not really wish to entertain it. Think of it this way, when ToMM was introduced, a DpS needed to increase their Accuracy, Armour Penetration and Combat Advantage by 12,000 each in order to remain relevant, in addition to beefing up their defenses. A BiS healer in terms of healing capability only needs to ensure they meet the defensive caps, nothing else changes. There is no real gear progression.

    ty - thats exactly what I mean - there is no more progress for healing DC´s if you reach a certain point.

    There are 2 Solutions possible:

    Solution one:
    make a DC a buffer again - so hes usefull for the group. I upgrade something and the group gets more in return.
    It should be something what I have to upgrade so a stronger healer offers more than a weaker healer.


    Solution two:
    let healing or overhealing damage enemies - in earlier Mods we had burning guidance and healing warmth boon. If you could get some damage for the group while healing it would make sense to upgrade a DC and trying to get stronger.

    If they don´t find a solution quick - the healing DC is dead.


  • onlymatonlymat Member Posts: 317 Arc User

    @onlymat maybe you should stop playing scaled content and play content lvl 80. Then come again daring to say that healers and tanks are useless.

    we run lomm normally without a tank - a tank slows down the run too much. 4 DPS and a healer gets the Job easily done!
    So with good DPS no tank needed!

    And if you read what I wrote and try to understand - UPGRADE a healer especially a DC is useless - not the healer itself!
  • onlymatonlymat Member Posts: 317 Arc User

    I solo cn with my warlock both dps and heal specs. Thats no point of reference. In lomm you need tank and heal, same for tomm, tong, elol, manycoins. When a tank or heal Is good enough it can carry a bad group just like a dps would do, and that is when pugs realize you did a good job

    pls make a DC play with a healing build and solo CN.
    Tell me how long you need!

    And no as a DC healing build you cannot carry a bad group!
    But with my 26k DPS cw I can easily!
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,247 Arc User
    onlymat said:

    The OP of this thread is correct although there is no real easy solution without either changing the way gear is currently implemented in Neverwinter, changing the way heals are calculated or changing the support role to offer more than just tanking/healing. It is a bigger issue for healers than for tanks, since at least for tanks as an enemies ratings increase, you need higher counter stats to deal with them. For healers you have an obvious problem, at some point, you will either be able to overheal members of your party or you will cap out on power+outgoing healing bonus. Once you have reached either of these points, there is really nothing left to invest in. You can make your character more defensive, but that is it. Furthermore, as new content is added to the game and ratings on enemies become higher, the problem becomes more and more pronounced because whilst very little power is added to gear, a lot of the other ratings are added which does nothing for your healers, so they effectively have the same character between every single module.

    The fact of the matter is, the potency to heal does not increase by much from mod to mod and the required healing potency does not increase much, due to there being no "counter stats" for healing. A solution to this would be to make defense/deflect reduce healing potency, forcing healers to stack arp/accuracy to counter it, but this is such an unpleasant idea that I do not really wish to entertain it. Think of it this way, when ToMM was introduced, a DpS needed to increase their Accuracy, Armour Penetration and Combat Advantage by 12,000 each in order to remain relevant, in addition to beefing up their defenses. A BiS healer in terms of healing capability only needs to ensure they meet the defensive caps, nothing else changes. There is no real gear progression.

    ty - thats exactly what I mean - there is no more progress for healing DC´s if you reach a certain point.

    There are 2 Solutions possible:

    Solution one:
    make a DC a buffer again - so hes usefull for the group. I upgrade something and the group gets more in return.
    It should be something what I have to upgrade so a stronger healer offers more than a weaker healer.


    Solution two:
    let healing or overhealing damage enemies - in earlier Mods we had burning guidance and healing warmth boon. If you could get some damage for the group while healing it would make sense to upgrade a DC and trying to get stronger.

    If they don´t find a solution quick - the healing DC is dead.


    I think there is another solution, where you give DCs the old Astral Shield back for example, where you can stack stats to mitigate a flat amount of damage. Its a middle ground between giving buffs back and maintaining the current status quo.
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,247 Arc User

    The OP of this thread is correct although there is no real easy solution without either changing the way gear is currently implemented in Neverwinter, changing the way heals are calculated or changing the support role to offer more than just tanking/healing. It is a bigger issue for healers than for tanks, since at least for tanks as an enemies ratings increase, you need higher counter stats to deal with them. For healers you have an obvious problem, at some point, you will either be able to overheal members of your party or you will cap out on power+outgoing healing bonus. Once you have reached either of these points, there is really nothing left to invest in. You can make your character more defensive, but that is it. Furthermore, as new content is added to the game and ratings on enemies become higher, the problem becomes more and more pronounced because whilst very little power is added to gear, a lot of the other ratings are added which does nothing for your healers, so they effectively have the same character between every single module.

    The fact of the matter is, the potency to heal does not increase by much from mod to mod and the required healing potency does not increase much, due to there being no "counter stats" for healing. A solution to this would be to make defense/deflect reduce healing potency, forcing healers to stack arp/accuracy to counter it, but this is such an unpleasant idea that I do not really wish to entertain it. Think of it this way, when ToMM was introduced, a DpS needed to increase their Accuracy, Armour Penetration and Combat Advantage by 12,000 each in order to remain relevant, in addition to beefing up their defenses. A BiS healer in terms of healing capability only needs to ensure they meet the defensive caps, nothing else changes. There is no real gear progression.

    This isn't just limited to healers either, but to everyone because of the caps being too easy to hit and the way power is in the formula.
    Damage and healing only really have one open ended method of progressing, which is power and that suffering diminishing returns instead of being linear. Crit is capped way to quickly, and there are very limited sources of crit Sev.
    I think someone did a pretty good video on the problem back when m16 was still in preview. and while the whole counterstat system makes balance easier, it actually just makes progression go backwards, each increase you have to hobble your power to reach the new caps, meaning you actually do less damage/healing going into a new tier until they release new items to compensate. so once you already have full leg insignias and rank 15s and the mount bonus you want ( which are all totally separate from actual content, its all zen/diamonds) you stagnate.

    So if the only source of increase is power on gear, or a new weapon set, and im sure they gone on record saying the ToMM weapons will be the best available for a long time, and the increase we got from 950-1000/1010 gear pieces is roughly equal in the next tier, we gonna get maybe 5-7k power increase replacing every gear piece to say 1050ilevel ( or whatever the next tier is gonna be), that's a measly 1-2% increase at best. and that's assuming the new items have decent bonus's which looking at the 1010 successor stuff, isn't likely.
    So without a totally new damage formula and cap system, the only real way to have any real progression is to have triple enchant slots on new gear. but this is only going to delay the problem, not solve it
    It's not, but the problem is most pronounced on the healer classes.
  • onlymatonlymat Member Posts: 317 Arc User

    onlymat said:

    The OP of this thread is correct although there is no real easy solution without either changing the way gear is currently implemented in Neverwinter, changing the way heals are calculated or changing the support role to offer more than just tanking/healing. It is a bigger issue for healers than for tanks, since at least for tanks as an enemies ratings increase, you need higher counter stats to deal with them. For healers you have an obvious problem, at some point, you will either be able to overheal members of your party or you will cap out on power+outgoing healing bonus. Once you have reached either of these points, there is really nothing left to invest in. You can make your character more defensive, but that is it. Furthermore, as new content is added to the game and ratings on enemies become higher, the problem becomes more and more pronounced because whilst very little power is added to gear, a lot of the other ratings are added which does nothing for your healers, so they effectively have the same character between every single module.

    The fact of the matter is, the potency to heal does not increase by much from mod to mod and the required healing potency does not increase much, due to there being no "counter stats" for healing. A solution to this would be to make defense/deflect reduce healing potency, forcing healers to stack arp/accuracy to counter it, but this is such an unpleasant idea that I do not really wish to entertain it. Think of it this way, when ToMM was introduced, a DpS needed to increase their Accuracy, Armour Penetration and Combat Advantage by 12,000 each in order to remain relevant, in addition to beefing up their defenses. A BiS healer in terms of healing capability only needs to ensure they meet the defensive caps, nothing else changes. There is no real gear progression.

    ty - thats exactly what I mean - there is no more progress for healing DC´s if you reach a certain point.

    There are 2 Solutions possible:

    Solution one:
    make a DC a buffer again - so hes usefull for the group. I upgrade something and the group gets more in return.
    It should be something what I have to upgrade so a stronger healer offers more than a weaker healer.


    Solution two:
    let healing or overhealing damage enemies - in earlier Mods we had burning guidance and healing warmth boon. If you could get some damage for the group while healing it would make sense to upgrade a DC and trying to get stronger.

    If they don´t find a solution quick - the healing DC is dead.


    I think there is another solution, where you give DCs the old Astral Shield back for example, where you can stack stats to mitigate a flat amount of damage. Its a middle ground between giving buffs back and maintaining the current status quo.

    or you get something like a class feature "helping the weak". So it increases the power of the group members up to 5 % but it depends on your power to the healers power.

    example:

    the DC is at 150k Power 5 % would be 7500 Power
    So if you have Power of 142500 or less you would get the full 7500 Power. Only until you are equal with the healer.
    If you join as a DPS who is strong enough you sit on 175k Power - you get nothing from the healer because you are not weak in comparison to the DC.

    This way a good DC can also do random queues and can be sure the group gets much stronger with him if needed.

    So if you join a 10k group where peoples power even scaled is at 75k and DC downscaled power is at 110k everyone would get the 5% more Power. Then it would make sense to upgrade a healer - for more IL to run harder content and you would be usefull if you farm AD and ran random queues.

    The DC would be usefull again in ALL content. In lomm and tomm for heals (DPS sit normally on more power than DC´s) and in content with weak members he would be usefull and offers not only heals.

    So if you are a low lvl DC you offer only heals for the group but it´s the same if you are a low lvl dps you offer low damage for the group. So This would be a usefull addition :)




  • thestiathestia Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 296 Arc User
    I keep reading "capped crit" when referring to healers. I have to assume that people are not realizing that the way critically healing is calculated is different than for critically striking against a foe.

    The more you increase your power as a healer, the more crit you need to land a critical heal. I have never seen a healer with "capped crit" unless they are far from BiS and lack a significant amount of power.

    The current formula for calculating your chance to critically heal is:

    Crit Chance = Crit Stat ÷ (2.5 × power)
  • majorcharvenakmajorcharvenak Member Posts: 783 Arc User
    thestia said:

    I keep reading "capped crit" when referring to healers. I have to assume that people are not realizing that the way critically healing is calculated is different than for critically striking against a foe.

    The more you increase your power as a healer, the more crit you need to land a critical heal. I have never seen a healer with "capped crit" unless they are far from BiS and lack a significant amount of power.

    The current formula for calculating your chance to critically heal is:

    Crit Chance = Crit Stat ÷ (2.5 × power)

    Thank you, @thestia. I kept seeing that as well and I was left scratching my head while trying to figure out of they changed the formula and I missed it.
    ~Shia~

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  • onlymatonlymat Member Posts: 317 Arc User
    thestia said:

    I keep reading "capped crit" when referring to healers. I have to assume that people are not realizing that the way critically healing is calculated is different than for critically striking against a foe.

    The more you increase your power as a healer, the more crit you need to land a critical heal. I have never seen a healer with "capped crit" unless they are far from BiS and lack a significant amount of power.

    The current formula for calculating your chance to critically heal is:

    Crit Chance = Crit Stat ÷ (2.5 × power)

    first:

    This doesn´t help anything for the DC´s Problem - its still useless to upgrade him.

    second:

    This needs to get changed asap. Why: If this is the way healing works - you can´t play 2 loadouts as DPS and as healer. Because as healer you want tostack crit as DPS you want to stack power. It would be even more expensive to have an healer and a DPS. You would be in a big disadvantage to all other classes. AND: The DC heals would still be useless. No progress never. He only offers heals!
  • dread4moordread4moor Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,145 Arc User
    "There is no difference b/w 10K and 26K on Tank and DC"
    This is not100% universally true, but generally true.
    I do agree that DPS benefits far more from investment than healers or tanks.

    The examples given (CN, ToNG) are pretty easy now anyway even with scaling. Not good examples.

    In some content having a well geared healer is essential.
    An average geared party with weak heals in LoMM will fail on all three bosses.
    And ToMM? With weakass heals? pffft

    But I get OPs broader point.
    I'm bored AF with my DC healer. No goals, once you cap everything nothing you add makes a huge difference.
    Even getting +50% outgoing healing means little if the party isn't loaded with tacticals.
    Barely log in anymore.
    JrUzbQw.jpg?1
    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • drdark21#0636 drdark21 Member Posts: 23 Arc User
    I main a cleric, i have one ranger alt i barely play - I understand what he is saying to a degree. In Mod 15 my cleric was so good i could carry groups thru adv queues, new players min IL, as long as i had one other similarly item level player that was half way decent with their class it didnt matter the other 3 players (and i'm talking pug queues)

    the reason he is mentioning malabog is because it is now a challenging dungeon due to scaling. As pure heal devout i cant do anything but run around like a chicken with my head cut off trying to keep everyone alive because 1. the dps is bad and drains my divinity healing 2. i now have the aggro and am tanking mobs 3. i dont do a lick of damage or if i stand still long enough to cast dmg spells i'm swarmed by mobs. bottom line i cant carry parties thru like previous mod so it feels like we are kind of useless

    its just a different game now lol good or bad, intended or side effect
  • aerhythia#3255 aerhythia Member Posts: 173 Arc User

    So without a totally new damage formula and cap system, the only real way to have any real progression is to have triple enchant slots on new gear. but this is only going to delay the problem, not solve it

    Something like the MW weapon set bonus would also work and, say, double it depending on stats. Far as I know the buff part of the damage formula is planned to be updated. Once done there are a lot of options... I think gear is were it is, cap stats and get as much power and HP as possible. It's simply but that's how it's supposed to be.
  • tardbathtardbath Member Posts: 79 Arc User
    There are tanks tanking Tomm and holding threat with 80k power 60k armor pen 800ilvl main-hand.. The threat system is a joke sadly :/
  • c1k4ml3kc3c1k4ml3kc3 Member Posts: 1,257 Arc User
    onlymat said:

    The main prob generated with the rework of classes is: Tanks an Healers especially DC´s give nothing to a group.
    It´s useless to upgrade a tank or a DC.

    example:

    run a Castle Never with a 10k tank run a castle never with a 26k tank - you will NOT feel a difference.
    run a Castle Never with a 10k healer run a castle Never with a 26k healer - you will NOT feel a difference.
    run a Castle Never with a 10k cw run a castle Never with a 26 k cw - you feel the difference the whole group feels the difference.

    This means - Upgrades are ONLY usefull for DPS classes - it helps groups it upgrades the performance of groups - it makes the groups faster.

    BAHAHAHA that conclusion based on a complete logical fallacy!

    You can't finish CN runs faster without a good DPS? Imagine that!
    I can't believe what I'm reading.
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  • onlymatonlymat Member Posts: 317 Arc User

    onlymat said:

    The main prob generated with the rework of classes is: Tanks an Healers especially DC´s give nothing to a group.
    It´s useless to upgrade a tank or a DC.

    example:

    run a Castle Never with a 10k tank run a castle never with a 26k tank - you will NOT feel a difference.
    run a Castle Never with a 10k healer run a castle Never with a 26k healer - you will NOT feel a difference.
    run a Castle Never with a 10k cw run a castle Never with a 26 k cw - you feel the difference the whole group feels the difference.

    This means - Upgrades are ONLY usefull for DPS classes - it helps groups it upgrades the performance of groups - it makes the groups faster.

    BAHAHAHA that conclusion based on a complete logical fallacy!

    You can't finish CN runs faster without a good DPS? Imagine that!
    I can't believe what I'm reading.

    I know Whatsapp generation.
    Sorry for using more than 10 words - hard to understand for some.....

    I try it easier for you:
    (Best read sentence by sentence - take a break after every sentence and see if you can understand - if not just ask).

    If you upgrade a DPS to 26k it makes a difference in all group runs - there is no over DPS.
    If you upgrade a healer to 26k it makes no difference for most groups - because overheal gives nothing to a group.
    So a 10k healer is as good as 26k healer.


    Before Mod16 the DC was a Buffer (take a break read what Buffs are).
    So even poor DPS get buffed (maybe new word you learned) and is now not bad DPS but average to good DPS because of Buffs.
    If the DC stays like it is now - it makes no sense for 99% of content to upgrade it.

    Now you understood? Come on I believe in you - if not now read again - best read the whole topic again - then you will get the point.

  • rafamarques#5700 rafamarques Member Posts: 155 Arc User
    edited September 2019
    another way to explain your silogism...

    what is our mission joining a dungeon? survive for "x" minutes or kill everthing more fast as you can? the second one. by quantify or quality of enemies, maybe we need be enable to survive during that meantime decided by... the time that a party take to clean everthing.

    so, a dps take 10 minutes to kill a boss, a tank/healer need be able to make a party survive for 10 minutes against that boss. if take 1 minutes, survive for 1 minute.
    ======================

    if you are a dps, your limit for damage is: oneshot your enemies. if you are able to oneshot your enemies, you dont need improve more your offensive status, maybe your defensive status.

    now, if you are able to oneshot your enemies, improve your defensive status is useless because... they are dead.

    if you area a healer/tank what you will do is evolve to survive until the "max". but what is the max? the max is the worst group of dps in this game. some rogue called [email protected], a hunter called legolas and so on.. NOW if a party have some great dps, your improvement will be uselles because who cares if you area a great tank/healer if a party can oneshot every single enemy in the most of dungeons?



    if in some point you as a supporter decided that is not necessary improve your main status more than now, and decide improve your defensive status, you will not be able to oneshot things like dps. IF POSSIBLE, you are not doing this as a healer/tank, but as a bad dps.


  • sobi#1980 sobi Member Posts: 401 Arc User
    I have already stated this that each healing class should be given a niche. The DC should be given powers that buff parties and SW that debuff enemies. Those powers can rely on specific stats i.e. buffing encounters can rely on any of the offence stats, but with no real hard cap like the crit for healers.

    The game has changed all classes to their fundamental basics. Now is the time to take a step to introduce real mechanics i.e. macro. In other words, after you have learned your class (the micro), you need to learn the game (the macro). This is a concept that i believe originated from league but the way this game is going, there is no real need to understand the game at all, as long as you know your class. So if you already know your class, well nothing really will give you the sense of challenge.
  • sobi#1980 sobi Member Posts: 401 Arc User
    thestia said:

    I keep reading "capped crit" when referring to healers. I have to assume that people are not realizing that the way critically healing is calculated is different than for critically striking against a foe.

    The more you increase your power as a healer, the more crit you need to land a critical heal. I have never seen a healer with "capped crit" unless they are far from BiS and lack a significant amount of power.

    The current formula for calculating your chance to critically heal is:

    Crit Chance = Crit Stat ÷ (2.5 × power)

    But can the healer have more than 50% chance to critically heal?
  • thestiathestia Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 296 Arc User
    sobi#1980 said:

    thestia said:

    I keep reading "capped crit" when referring to healers. I have to assume that people are not realizing that the way critically healing is calculated is different than for critically striking against a foe.

    The more you increase your power as a healer, the more crit you need to land a critical heal. I have never seen a healer with "capped crit" unless they are far from BiS and lack a significant amount of power.

    The current formula for calculating your chance to critically heal is:

    Crit Chance = Crit Stat ÷ (2.5 × power)

    But can the healer have more than 50% chance to critically heal?
    Short answer: No.
  • zimxero#8085 zimxero Member Posts: 876 Arc User
    Imagine if tanks had a slider bar that they could set on their artifact gear:

    You take 0...10...50% extra damage.

    For each 10% extra damage selected, you gain 3% threat generation. You and nearby party members deal 1% additional damage to enemies which you hold in aggro.


    Something like this, would be cool for tanks. It would give them a party buff, a purpose, and make their defensive stats more important.
  • rafamarques#5700 rafamarques Member Posts: 155 Arc User
    edited September 2019
    back just to say; we have a certain solution that dont will change pvp.

    companion afinity.

    for example, if you are a tank, a striker and "x" companion will be more effective based in your item level. if you are a healer, a striker and "y" companion; if you are a dps, controllers and Z...
    Post edited by rafamarques#5700 on
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