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Tanks and DC´s need a big update asap

onlymatonlymat Member Posts: 317 Arc User
The main prob generated with the rework of classes is: Tanks an Healers especially DC´s give nothing to a group.
It´s useless to upgrade a tank or a DC.

example:

run a Castle Never with a 10k tank run a castle never with a 26k tank - you will NOT feel a difference.
run a Castle Never with a 10k healer run a castle Never with a 26k healer - you will NOT feel a difference.
run a Castle Never with a 10k cw run a castle Never with a 26 k cw - you feel the difference the whole group feels the difference.

This means - Upgrades are ONLY usefull for DPS classes - it helps groups it upgrades the performance of groups - it makes the groups faster.

To upgrade a tank or a healer adds NOTHING to a group - This means in 99% of content it´s completly wasted to upgrade a tank or a healer.
As soon as people realise this - they change classes or they leave the game.

With my 26k healer I played since starting of Neverwinter I can now end up in groups not being able to finish Malabog. MY Toon doesn´t make a difference for the run. So it´s completly wasted resources to run a 26k helaer or to upgrade it even more. The same happens with tanks - I know many hi IL player tanks who also stopped playing Neverwinter because there is no more progress - you don´t feel a Difference if a 10k tabk is in Party or a 26k Tank. Because most of the high IL DC players and Tanks left with mod 16 or short after queues are not popping anymore.
In LOMM you can even run without a tank because one more DPS brings much more to the table than a 27k Pally Tank!

What needs to be done is: Make DC´s and Tanks usefull for the group again. They need to Buff the group so you can feel a difference if you run with a 26k Pally or 26k DC or you run with only 10k ones.

Mod 16 made DC´s an Tanks upgrades useless - the only time why you could upgrade your toon is to run TOMM - but even there you give nothing you don´t make a difference like DPS does. Big DPS you finish - big Support classes you stil fail! Thats wrong on too many lvls and this is not helathy for the overall community.

Upgrade Tanks and DC´s needs to be on Prio one and needs to be in the game asap - not sure if some players come back - but the ones still playing maybe stick around.
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Comments

  • merik1999merik1999 Member Posts: 141 Arc User
    I think what is needed for tanks are either More HP better damage resistance or maybe more taunt. as for healers I know. My healer has an outgoing heal of 48% and those with outgoing healing of 20% are just as effective. Seems that incoming healing is more important than outgoing healing. A tank with 0% incoming healing I have a hard time healing in LOMM. But if they have at least 8% incoming healing, its no problem at all...
  • rikitakirikitaki Member Posts: 773 Arc User
    You know, if there would not be CN in the example, someone might even try to understand your point, but you picked a dungeon which is in terms of critters complete mess now. You can run it even without tank or heals - or get a good tank downed by a random pawn...

    In ToNG my tank feels all the missing HP or such bonuses granted onto us by devs, so I would say at least tanks do have some tangible progression. ...that the game difficulty is inconsistent with random spikes and hollow areas is completely other problem.
  • darthpotaterdarthpotater Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,117 Arc User
    It makes a difference,

    with a 26K healer you can tank the boss so you dont need tank and can have 4xDPS
    with a 26k tank you can solo the dungeon! so no wait to Queue pure WIN!!!

    I suspect that you are running CN with a group of 26k characters.... LoL is time to pass to the next stage
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  • laughingchampionlaughingchampion Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 8 Arc User
    Some thoughts about tanks (since I don't run a healer).
    Tanks use full plate armor (over under-armor) and have shields and all else aside should be able to take hits others who do not wear such armor should not be able to watch from afar without shaky knees. I was in a ToMM run and afterward a wizard who was with us commented that when his shield was up he took an annihilation hit and it didn't phase him. These are the hits the tank is supposed to have to take so the rest of the team can stay alive. Wizards, mind you, wear cloth robes...cloth robes! Leave the egalitarian thinking to the politicians and preschool teachers. This is a class based game and meant to be played as a team, so make all classes viable and useful in their respective roles. Okay so I won't go through the entire thought process or this would be a book.

    Next: Power has no cap and combat advantage has a very high cap--both DPS focused stats that make DPS toons more powerful as their class. Healers can cap their crit (and power works for healing too) at a much higher level to make them more powerful healers. What non-capped or even really high cap stat do Tanks get that makes them better particularly at tanking? ...crickets. This game seems to be very much DPS focused and not class focused. If any class other than a tank can be the first one Leroy Jenkinsing it into battle then there is something wrong.

    My comments are focused on team play in dungeons and such and not on solo. Of course every toon should be balanced enough to complete solo stuff on their own. Although I will say that DPSers should have to be much more careful to stay alive on their own, and Tanks of course would have to change their focus to be more damaging during solo play or it would take all day to kill an imp :)

    Thanks for the game and thanks for listening to us and continuing to make the game better and better Devs :)
  • onlymatonlymat Member Posts: 317 Arc User
    rikitaki said:

    You know, if there would not be CN in the example, someone might even try to understand your point, but you picked a dungeon which is in terms of critters complete mess now. You can run it even without tank or heals - or get a good tank downed by a random pawn...

    In ToNG my tank feels all the missing HP or such bonuses granted onto us by devs, so I would say at least tanks do have some tangible progression. ...that the game difficulty is inconsistent with random spikes and hollow areas is completely other problem.

    "You can run it even without tank or heals"

    Thats why I have chose the example! Better leave the tank and the healer at home and bring another DPS inside - no healer needed - progress for healers and Tanks are useless!

  • onlymatonlymat Member Posts: 317 Arc User

    It makes a difference,

    with a 26K healer you can tank the boss so you dont need tank and can have 4xDPS
    with a 26k tank you can solo the dungeon! so no wait to Queue pure WIN!!!

    I suspect that you are running CN with a group of 26k characters.... LoL is time to pass to the next stage

    You proove what I say - instead of running with a tank and a DC better run only with one of them and get more DPS inside because tank or healer or even both bring nothing on the table for groups.

    I don´t run with 26k groups - but I solo play alot and in earlier times I rando queued alot - but now - to queue as a healer or a tank makes no sense - YOU make NO difference for the run!

  • tassedethe13tassedethe13 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 806 Arc User
    You can't make assumption like this when playing scaled content.

    Tanks and healers are useful.
  • onlymatonlymat Member Posts: 317 Arc User

    You can't make assumption like this when playing scaled content.

    Tanks and healers are useful.

    Ah really? If you run a random queue and Castle Never pops - does a 26k healer support the group more as a 10k healer?
    Is near the difference a 26k CW in the group to a 10k CW in a group?

    No?

    You see tanks and healers are NOT usefull - to upgrade them is wasted it helps 0 zero niente to the group!
  • nic1985nic1985 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 377 Arc User
    I main an OP tank/heal, DC heal, CW.

    On daily most people request my tank or heal.

    I see in most /LFG, channels and chats; tank and heals are what people requesting more than dps.

    From what I’ve seen Tank/Heal are still in high demands. If they do get an “upgrades” maybe more will play tank/heal.
  • arazith07arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,218 Arc User
    onlymat said:

    You can't make assumption like this when playing scaled content.

    Tanks and healers are useful.

    Ah really? If you run a random queue and Castle Never pops - does a 26k healer support the group more as a 10k healer?
    Is near the difference a 26k CW in the group to a 10k CW in a group?

    No?

    You see tanks and healers are NOT usefull - to upgrade them is wasted it helps 0 zero niente to the group!
    This is like saying calculators are not useful because you can solve 12x12 in your head without one. Just like there are harder math problems that a calculator make a lot easier to solve, there are dungeons that are made a lot easier with a healer and tank.
  • onlymatonlymat Member Posts: 317 Arc User
    nic1985 said:

    I main an OP tank/heal, DC heal, CW.



    On daily most people request my tank or heal.



    I see in most /LFG, channels and chats; tank and heals are what people requesting more than dps.



    From what I’ve seen Tank/Heal are still in high demands. If they do get an “upgrades” maybe more will play tank/heal.

    they are in high demand, because most of the DC´s and Tanks are gone with mod 16 - thats why the tanks and healers are in high demand. But as soon as you realise that upgrading your DC brings nothing on the table for group content then you realise that upgrades on tanks and healers are wasted.
  • onlymatonlymat Member Posts: 317 Arc User
    arazith07 said:

    onlymat said:

    You can't make assumption like this when playing scaled content.

    Tanks and healers are useful.

    Ah really? If you run a random queue and Castle Never pops - does a 26k healer support the group more as a 10k healer?
    Is near the difference a 26k CW in the group to a 10k CW in a group?

    No?

    You see tanks and healers are NOT usefull - to upgrade them is wasted it helps 0 zero niente to the group!
    This is like saying calculators are not useful because you can solve 12x12 in your head without one. Just like there are harder math problems that a calculator make a lot easier to solve, there are dungeons that are made a lot easier with a healer and tank.
    Is it really so hard to understand.

    very slowly now:

    there are support classes and dps classes in Neverwinter
    ok?

    If you play an DPS class like a CW and queue for random queues you are in for doing damage.
    The more damage you deal the faster the group finish the dungeon.
    ok?
    So this means:
    every upgrade you do for your DPS class like cw where you achieve more damage is usefull not only for you but also for the whole group running the queue.
    ok?
    Now think about you are a DPS CW with 26K IL.
    ok?
    If you end up in your queue in Malabog for example with 1 other DPS 26k and the rest of the team is minimum IL to run this dungeon what will happen?
    think about and?
    YES you finish this dungeon still very fast because of the 2 guys 26k DPS in the group.

    take a short break if too fast!

    Now - we think about you join with a 26k healer a group - and the DPS is too weak what will happen?
    Tada..... The group will fail because its not important if your tank or your dc is 26 or 27k or if hes only 10k. You will not feel ANY difference in the run - he makes no difference!

    Conclusion:

    If you run a DC or a tank and you can´t feel the difference between an 26k DC or a 10k DC why the 26k DC should upgrade?
    You see the difference between a 10k CW and 26k CW - you can see NO difference in using a 10k healer or a 26k healer.

    If you still don´t understand - sorry easier I can´t explain!
  • flecia#3114 flecia Member Posts: 53 Arc User
    What your describing is exactly what scaling is supposed to do. Now personally I hate scaling and that is another topic for another time. Your not supposed to feel the difference between a 20k and a 10k player in a 10k dungeon. Healer tank or deeps. While you might feel a little difference in deeps is harder to scale back and there is also an element of potions alchemy buffs that may alter results. One deeps might use them when another didn't. But far as what the game intended by scaling it is what it is. I think what you should be fighting for is removing scaling all together.
  • arazith07arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,218 Arc User
    That 26k support will be able to deal more damage though. A 26k healer will have to heal less times due to the effectiveness of their heals, so can spend less time praying and more time dpsing, or can just slot more damaging skills. A 26k tank can hold aggro better, and take less damage without needing to use their shield and thus can slot more damaging skills and do more damage overall. Aside from Paladin, all other support will have a set of dps gear for when they are not doing end game content so they can carry other if they are doing random queues.
  • rafamarques#5700 rafamarques Member Posts: 155 Arc User
    edited September 2019
    is not too hard understand what he saying .

    tanks evolve to prolong fights, dps to shorten fights


    example (forget numbers, that is just a theorical/hyperbolic Approach) a dps class - 10k - need 5 attacks to kill a enemie but die if take the same 5 attacks. a 10k tank need 15 attacks and die if take 15 attacks. so, one need another.
    a 26k dps need one attack to kill multiple enemies and can take more than 10 attacks (but who cares? they area dead)

    by the same progression, a tank can survive a lot, but take way more time to kill enemies. for dps, how long you are able to survive dont have more difference because you are able to kill your enemy more fast than that enemy are able to kill you (or kill you and a 10k tank). for a tank, in general, you will be tough enough to prolong a fight ad infinitum, but who will define the speed of this fight is a 10k dps.

    BECAUSE OF THAT i think should exist offensive/defensive tanks for fighters/barbarians instead of dual roles.




  • geekoxxiiigeekoxxiii Member Posts: 17 Arc User
    The contextthe context is important, you are taking old dungeons that have little relevance.
    take ToMM as an example, you can have all the dps you want but if the tank and healer are not at the top, you fail.
  • onlymatonlymat Member Posts: 317 Arc User

    is not too hard understand what he saying .

    tanks evolve to prolong fights, dps to shorten fights


    example (forget numbers, that is just a theorical/hyperbolic Approach) a dps class - 10k - need 5 attacks to kill a enemie but die if take the same 5 attacks. a 10k tank need 15 attacks and die if take 15 attacks. so, one need another.
    a 26k dps need one attack to kill multiple enemies and can take more than 10 attacks (but who cares? they area dead)

    by the same progression, a tank can survive a lot, but take way more time to kill enemies. for dps, how long you are able to survive dont have more difference because you are able to kill your enemy more fast than that enemy are able to kill you (or kill you and a 10k tank). for a tank, in general, you will be tough enough to prolong a fight ad infinitum, but who will define the speed of this fight is a 10k dps.

    BECAUSE OF THAT i think should exist offensive/defensive tanks for fighters/barbarians instead of dual roles.




    the first one who understands what is meant. Its sad we live in a whats app world and people are not able to understand simple things!
  • onlymatonlymat Member Posts: 317 Arc User

    The contextthe context is important, you are taking old dungeons that have little relevance.
    take ToMM as an example, you can have all the dps you want but if the tank and healer are not at the top, you fail.

    As healer or tank you run random queues. TOMM is not a good example because its ONE Dungeon versuch all the others. I took CN or Malabog so you can see the difference it makes - a 26k healer is just not needed in ANY Content (maybe in LOMM or in TOMM) thats what I mean. A 26K DPS is needed everywhere - it helps in ALL Dungeons.

  • onlymatonlymat Member Posts: 317 Arc User
    arazith07 said:

    That 26k support will be able to deal more damage though. A 26k healer will have to heal less times due to the effectiveness of their heals, so can spend less time praying and more time dpsing, or can just slot more damaging skills. A 26k tank can hold aggro better, and take less damage without needing to use their shield and thus can slot more damaging skills and do more damage overall. Aside from Paladin, all other support will have a set of dps gear for when they are not doing end game content so they can carry other if they are doing random queues.

    try to read again and try to understand.
  • onlymatonlymat Member Posts: 317 Arc User
    edited September 2019

    What your describing is exactly what scaling is supposed to do. Now personally I hate scaling and that is another topic for another time. Your not supposed to feel the difference between a 20k and a 10k player in a 10k dungeon. Healer tank or deeps. While you might feel a little difference in deeps is harder to scale back and there is also an element of potions alchemy buffs that may alter results. One deeps might use them when another didn't. But far as what the game intended by scaling it is what it is. I think what you should be fighting for is removing scaling all together.

    NO this is not related to scaling.

    Again: what group setup runs better and faster (Malabog and CN):

    Group 1: 10k helaer and 10 k tank 1 10k DPS 2 26k DPS
    Group 2: 26k healer nad 26k tank 3 10k DPS

    whats the better group and why?

    Maybe you undestand ALL Dungeons have caps what needs to be reached to run it. You need a tank who can survive some hits you need a healer who can heal a certain amount of damage. You need DPS who reach the requirements to DPS down the enemies.

    If your tank and healer are over the cap it gives NOTHING to the group. If the DPS is over the cap it gives more and more to the group so it makes sense to upgrade DPS. it always helps also in scaled content.

    And the chance to fail on a Dungeon with my 26k DC is much higher and happens alot as if I run my 26K CW.
    With my CW I deal too much of damage so even if the healer and tank is not good no prob in some seconds everything is dead.

    With my healer it gives nothing too the group. If DPS is too weak they can´t beat it and as healer I can´t influnence it.

    Maybe now its understandable why it makes no sense to upgrade a healer or a tank.

    Last thing: why people run lomm without tanks? a 20k DPS additional is better than a 27k Tank.
    Again: A tank and a DC does nothing for the group. If you have a 10k healer he influences the run as much a s a 26k DC.

    Like I wrote: I play a healer since years and also a high damage DPS cw. But most of my friends who are tanks and healers are gone because of this. Tired to fauil a malabog with 26k healer. This doesn´t happen on my CW.
    The reasons I wrote. If you can´t understand - no prob - maby my english is not good enough.
  • onlymatonlymat Member Posts: 317 Arc User

    But the problem here is not the classes, is the content that is so trivial, like solo play.

    Scaling is jus a patch for something that should be adressed (dungeon dificulty). All the dungeons should be level 80 wo scalling and level up process should be something dungeon free so they dont mix things. And all the dungeons should have relevant rewards for a level 80 character like it was when the game was released.

    scaling is a completly other problem.

    If your DPS can do 100k damage a second you upgrade it so it can do 200k damage per second its good you get something for your upgrade. DPS and DAMAGE is always needed. As more you update as more you get as more usefull you are.

    If you can heal for 100k a second and upgrade your healer so you can heal 200k per second - its just not needed in MOST content - so its wasted update. If your tank can take hits 100k per second and survive you can upgrade him to survive 200k hits per second - its not needed in MOST content - its wasted update. Maybe now its clear what I want to say?
    Only DPS upgrades make sense.

    Upgrade a tank and a DC makes no sense - thats why tanks and healers left. It makes sense to a certain point but then you get no return for upgrades.

    Tanks and healers needs to be changed so if you upgrade your DC or your Tank it also gives something for the group. Its just bad to upgrade an get NO effect.

    In earlier times we had boons like burning guidance healing warmth - so we could also deal a little damage and if you are stronger you contribute more to the group. But now? All gone.

    Tanks and Healers needs to be buffers again - if not they are dead. And you see that it happens everyone cries for tanks for all runs you need them because the random queue can´t be startet without them - but you don´t really need them for most content. As I wrote above - the quickest runs in LOMM are without a tank. Thats because a tanks gives NOTHING to a group. And with every new gear with every new mod it gets even worse for tanks and DC´s.



  • darthpotaterdarthpotater Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,117 Arc User
    onlymat said:

    But the problem here is not the classes, is the content that is so trivial, like solo play.

    Scaling is jus a patch for something that should be adressed (dungeon dificulty). All the dungeons should be level 80 wo scalling and level up process should be something dungeon free so they dont mix things. And all the dungeons should have relevant rewards for a level 80 character like it was when the game was released.

    scaling is a completly other problem.

    If your DPS can do 100k damage a second you upgrade it so it can do 200k damage per second its good you get something for your upgrade. DPS and DAMAGE is always needed. As more you update as more you get as more usefull you are.

    If you can heal for 100k a second and upgrade your healer so you can heal 200k per second - its just not needed in MOST content - so its wasted update. If your tank can take hits 100k per second and survive you can upgrade him to survive 200k hits per second - its not needed in MOST content - its wasted update. Maybe now its clear what I want to say?
    Only DPS upgrades make sense.

    Upgrade a tank and a DC makes no sense - thats why tanks and healers left. It makes sense to a certain point but then you get no return for upgrades.

    Tanks and healers needs to be changed so if you upgrade your DC or your Tank it also gives something for the group. Its just bad to upgrade an get NO effect.

    In earlier times we had boons like burning guidance healing warmth - so we could also deal a little damage and if you are stronger you contribute more to the group. But now? All gone.

    Tanks and Healers needs to be buffers again - if not they are dead. And you see that it happens everyone cries for tanks for all runs you need them because the random queue can´t be startet without them - but you don´t really need them for most content. As I wrote above - the quickest runs in LOMM are without a tank. Thats because a tanks gives NOTHING to a group. And with every new gear with every new mod it gets even worse for tanks and DC´s.

    Yes I understand your point, but buffing wont come again because it causes more problems than it solves. 4 buffers + 1 DPS meta is gone, forever. So if you are going to give feedback, try a different thing.

    And scaling is part of the problem. Is just a bad patch to not upgrade the dungeons to the new level cap. Plain and simple. A bad solution that again comes with more problems that it solves. If every dungeon is hard enough to need a tank and a healer, you wont be here complaining that you are useless in X dungeon.
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  • tom#6998 tom Member Posts: 952 Arc User
    U upgrade your tank/healer because then it can take on harder content eg. ToMM
  • tempus86#1158 tempus86 Member Posts: 165 Arc User
    I think the point is tanks are not tanky enough and Dungeon enemies don't do enough damage to justify the difference especially when you can just shift/dodge attacks as a DPS/healer.
    When it boils down to it, the only real difference between a tank and the other roles in terms of survival is health. Even block isn't really mitigation, its just another form of Temp hitpoints. You still take just as much damage for the most part as a dps or healer does, just with a much larger health pool.
    Defence/damage reduction and Deflect caps are pretty easy for anyone to cap, especially with the new gear which is available to anyone and these are the only real sources of mitigation and I think this is the main source of the problem, there just isn't enough core mechanics/abilities built into tanks right now that make them stand apart enough as "the tank"
    Im sure the "but what about TOMM" argument will be raised and sure as it stands now you need tanks for it, but that's kinda the exception to the rule and will no doubt change down the line as gear improves, so it doesn't really negate the point.

    Up until recently LoMM was the hardest content available along with watchers and they have been doable without a tank for months. This is a massive problem if the game is intending to use the trinity model when 1 of the trinity can so easily be replaced.

    There is not enough tank only gear. there is not enough tank only mitigation. Too many attacks can be dodged ( which tanks cannot do) enemies in dungeons should melt none tanks in seconds. I Wouldn't dream of trying to do heroic dungeons or raids without a tank, even a badly geared tank back when playing WoW because even the best geared dps got obliterated.

    Tanks should be vital and with more unique stats/caps. As it stands they are not
  • tassedethe13tassedethe13 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 806 Arc User
    edited September 2019
    @onlymat maybe you should stop playing scaled content and play content lvl 80. Then come again daring to say that healers and tanks are useless.
  • tom#6998 tom Member Posts: 952 Arc User

    I think the point is tanks are not tanky enough and Dungeon enemies don't do enough damage to justify the difference especially when you can just shift/dodge attacks as a DPS/healer.
    When it boils down to it, the only real difference between a tank and the other roles in terms of survival is health. Even block isn't really mitigation, its just another form of Temp hitpoints. You still take just as much damage for the most part as a dps or healer does, just with a much larger health pool.
    Defence/damage reduction and Deflect caps are pretty easy for anyone to cap, especially with the new gear which is available to anyone and these are the only real sources of mitigation and I think this is the main source of the problem, there just isn't enough core mechanics/abilities built into tanks right now that make them stand apart enough as "the tank"
    Im sure the "but what about TOMM" argument will be raised and sure as it stands now you need tanks for it, but that's kinda the exception to the rule and will no doubt change down the line as gear improves, so it doesn't really negate the point.

    Up until recently LoMM was the hardest content available along with watchers and they have been doable without a tank for months. This is a massive problem if the game is intending to use the trinity model when 1 of the trinity can so easily be replaced.

    There is not enough tank only gear. there is not enough tank only mitigation. Too many attacks can be dodged ( which tanks cannot do) enemies in dungeons should melt none tanks in seconds. I Wouldn't dream of trying to do heroic dungeons or raids without a tank, even a badly geared tank back when playing WoW because even the best geared dps got obliterated.

    Tanks should be vital and with more unique stats/caps. As it stands they are not

    the obvious solution is to make content alot harder and a lot deadlier. Everything in this game besides ToMM is a total walk in the park, so no wonder noone needs tanks and healers.
  • gonzakotwigonzakotwi Member Posts: 267 Arc User
    I solo cn with my warlock both dps and heal specs. Thats no point of reference. In lomm you need tank and heal, same for tomm, tong, elol, manycoins. When a tank or heal Is good enough it can carry a bad group just like a dps would do, and that is when pugs realize you did a good job
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