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Are you actually making changes in PVE for PVP again?

@nitocris83 @mimicking#6533 @noworries#8859

I would like to know why there have been nerfs to healing for both the Paladin and Cleric in PVE content.
Does it have anything to do with this? https://arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/comment/13114835

and the reply by noworries
"We are actively working on the PvP balance and healing has been a particular focus lately.

The tooltip for the PvP buff icon is not correct, you should see the text on there go away on preview.

Sigil of the Paladin will be adjusted for M17

Providence will have to be looked at to see why it is triggering more often than it should, but it will be adjusted to be 5% in PvP.

We are also making direct adjustments to how healing works in PvP and will continue to tweak the pvp values on everything while we work towards better PvP balance."


I know the nerfs are not because of this... right?

I have a few questions.
Did you guys nerf PVE healers in order to make PVP more balanced? If not what is the reasoning behind the changes to healing in PVE?
Did we adjust to the changes in MOD 16 too quickly?
Could you not figure out how to make Warlock healers viable so you just nerfed the others instead?

PVP questions:
Why are there healers in PVP anyway? Are they going to heal someone to death? Why not just disable the role in PVP?
I mean if I have a healer keeping me alive then is it about my skill or the healers skill when I kill someone?

If you claim you want balance then:

Why are people in PVP able to use mount powers and Insignias? Why not just disable them in PVP?
Why are people in PVP able to use companion bonuses? Why not disable them in PVP content?
Why are people in PVP able to use stronghold boons? Why not just disable them in PVP?

The people who are in a rank 20 guild and can afford the best will always have an advantage. You can't balance the haves with the have nots.

See a trend here? PVP in this game is broken and has been for a very long time. Until you remove the things listed above you will not be able to balance it. Please do not break PVE content yet again to fix PVP content.

For the 100th time.... Why not just give everyone a PVP loadout and restrict what can be used in it?

PVP is supposed to be about player skill right? OR Is PVP all about who spends the most?

It seems to me right now if I have a few million AD or a credit card laying around and I am a member of a rank 20 guild with all of the guild boons and I have a friend who is a Cleric or Paladin to heal me I will be a PVP God compared to someone who is missing just one of these things. Am I right? /sarcasm

Sorry if I don't really understand PVP in this game. I tried. I sat in the queue but it never popped the first time I tried it. The next time I went in with a few friends. It was pretty boring compared to the many other PVP games I have played. The last time I went in the queue actually popped but the people in the match were so toxic that I decided not to ever do it again. There are plenty of PVP games on the market that do a much better job. If I want PVP I will give them my money. I give you my money for PVE content and if PVP queue times are any measure so does about 90% of your customer base.



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Comments

  • oremonger#9999 oremonger Posts: 129Member Arc User
    I know Tom, I know. :)
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Posts: 3,604Member Arc User
    I totally agree with the op here. imo if they're going to keep it in the game it should be 100 percent separate from pve and should strip all players down to level 10 basically. no special gear no special perks. heals and tanks should have no place in this content. special skills should be found on the ground like special weapons in other games and should have limits. as it stands with the classes the way they are there is no reasonable way to do pvp in this game.
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  • auron#6793 auron Posts: 256Member Arc User
    I don't get why they are specing around pvp in the first place. This game's main focus is pve not pvp. Pvp is more fluff than anything else.
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  • quickfoot#7851 quickfoot Posts: 331Member Arc User
    edited July 22
    Regarding balancing "the haves and have nots", in almost every MMORPG, PVP has always been about a combination of skill *and* gear, leveling, powers, grinding for things that give an advantage, etc (i.e. what you have). If you just want skill based pvp, fps games and those like mortal combat are probably more to your liking.

    Some people are highly opposed to companion player bonuses being active in PVP. While some of these may over perform in PVP, for instance the pig that heals 5% hp ever second you are controlled, and possibly other proc based effects, most of the player bonuses are purely stat bonus. In the case of flat stat bonuses, I don't have any problem w/ these being active in PVP, they aren't any different than using enchants and insignias to min/max your build, something that is harder to accomplish with the combined rating system. Bonuses like Owlbear Cub, Pig, Manticore, etc, I think should be looked at and possibly nerfed or disabled in PVP for the same reason gear like the Curse Bringer ring was.

  • rev#7881 rev Posts: 119Member Arc User
    hustin1 said:

    everything and his dog has a stun with zero cooldows

    I've been noticing this for a while now, every mod that goes by for some reason they add more stuns with no cooldowns to mobs, they even gave it to spiders (spiders with stuns rly?).
    Nowadays if i mess up once i find myself stunned for AT LEAST a good 10 secs (not even gonna talk about the whirlwinds that send me flying for 1 minute), and now that i think of it only a real small percentage of the enemies don't have any type of stun.
  • dolreydolrey Posts: 628Member Arc User
    edited July 25
    Why are people in PVP able to use equipment in PvP? Why not just disable them in PVP?
    No equipment - no need in matchmaking.

    Why are people in PVP able to use abilities? Why not just disable them in PVP?
    No skills - no need in balance.

    Why are people in PVP able to do something? Why not just disable this in PVP?
    No need to do something - no difference between players.

    Why are people in PVP able to die? Why not just disable this in PVP?
    No deaths - no one dies.
    Well.. Actually it already works this way. Hehe..

    Why are people in PVP able to do PvP? Why not just disable this in PVP?
    No PvP - no PvP problems.

    All genius is simple :)

    Ps: typical problems of old mmos. I just created my character and I want to be top PvP or PvE player but I don't want to do something for this. Do everything instead of me please.

    PPs: Hmm.. Maybe it should be better to delete everything from the game: equipment, classes, abilities, builds, mechanics, PvE, PvP, monsters. Then everybody will be equal. We enter the game to be equal! Because then everyone is top player without any actions!! Riot on the ship! HUZZAH!!


    Post edited by dolrey on

  • jules#6770 jules Posts: 180Member Arc User
    edited July 25
    You don't want healers to be able to not run out of resources in dire situations but you also don't want to make content harder?
    So you want people to buy more scrolls?
    What is your vision for gameplay with tank/healer/3 dps in endgame content? I don't get it yet, my bad.

    And a second look on the patch notes didn't change my opinion on this: You are watching meta groups with good healers and tanks when in reality, you really got to search for somebody that is even willing to heal (or, more specifically, dc heal) lomm.
    Make it even harder for healers and I for sure can see everybody upgrading that one dc they got for the sigil in the past...

    But even if the changes were for PVP instead of a trial not many will be able to do (...) you won't get an answer that might make PVE players unhappy.
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  • cherryman1cherryman1 Posts: 303Member Arc User

    Regarding balancing "the haves and have nots", in almost every MMORPG, PVP has always been about a combination of skill *and* gear, leveling, powers, grinding for things that give an advantage, etc (i.e. what you have). If you just want skill based pvp, fps games and those like mortal combat are probably more to your liking.

    Some people are highly opposed to companion player bonuses being active in PVP. While some of these may over perform in PVP, for instance the pig that heals 5% hp ever second you are controlled, and possibly other proc based effects, most of the player bonuses are purely stat bonus. In the case of flat stat bonuses, I don't have any problem w/ these being active in PVP, they aren't any different than using enchants and insignias to min/max your build, something that is harder to accomplish with the combined rating system. Bonuses like Owlbear Cub, Pig, Manticore, etc, I think should be looked at and possibly nerfed or disabled in PVP for the same reason gear like the Curse Bringer ring was.

    Having groups of haves and have not in pvp is why it is deserted place with few venturing into it right now. There is no place to have long term pvp in this type of environment unless your giving away free things to keep people coming. It's like having a restaurant that serves bad food but keeps people coming because they hand out iPads to everyone who comes in and has a meal. The way to keep people coming is to have enjoyable reasons for all people who come by. Once that restaurant stops handing out iPads you will see a major drop in people coming to eat. FYI, the only way to have long term PvP with high population rates is to have a VERY small difference between the abilities of players entering. Like something in the 3% to 5% range of difference in abilities. Which is why they need 2 versions of PvP. The one where items are extremely limited on what works and one that is a no holds bard PvP in terms of what you can use.
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  • arazith07arazith07 Posts: 407Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    Not sure where everyone thinks healing was nerfed by 50%. For cleric at least, we lost 50 mag(6.25% less) on Bastion of Health, 20 more divinity per cast(25% more). Cleanse went from 90 cost to 100 divinity (11% more). Healing word: 20% more divinity cost, 17% less mag on the over time heal, 20% less mag on initial hit, and 100% more range. Intercession got a flat 25% mag nerf. Even if you were to combine all the Healing Word changes into one % nerf of Heal/divinity cost with 7 ticks(no extension via feat) you would get a 32% overall nerf on the effectiveness of Healing word.
  • wintersmokewintersmoke Posts: 1,431Member Arc User
    tom#6998 said:

    I dont think they want to balance the "haves" and the "have nots" to use your wording. They want to balance classes, but cryptic wants the PvPers to spend money, so eliminating companions, insignias and the likes would go against that.

    Which is why PvP is dead-ish….
  • wintersmokewintersmoke Posts: 1,431Member Arc User

    The changes were made for pve, not for pvp.

    Citation needed.
  • arazith07arazith07 Posts: 407Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    The changes were made for pve, not for pvp.

    Citation needed.
    Asterdahl says it quite clearly in this thread actually.
    asterdahl said:

    Actually, these changes were not made for PvP at all. I do think they will improve PvP a bit as healing was probably too strong, but the main reason for these changes was in fact that healing was too strong in PvE. In the trial thread there was a lot of speculation that the healing nerfs were specifically in response to the trial, so I'd like to repost my response from that thread here for those that haven't been following it.

    asterdahl said:

    But as evidenced by the healing nerfs in the last preview patch, the NW devs (designers), under the counsel of preview-BiS players like Sharpedge here, are willing to effect the whole rest of the game for the sake of just this “0.1% content.” That makes us fear what else might be coming, for one, and that’s probably the core of much of the backlash to it.

    I understand the speculation that the healing nerfs were in direct reaction to feedback from the trial, but actually the adjustments to healing were something we have been discussing since Module 16 launched and we got a chance to see how healers performed on live.

    In reality we may actually lower some of the damage in the trial to compensate for the changes. Healing is very strong right now on live, healers very, very rarely run out of resources even in dire situations. Early builds of M16 had much more strenuous resource consumption, and we made a lot of changes without making enough changes elsewhere to compensate.

    We don't want to make the game significantly harder, but we do want healers to be in danger of running out of resources if the group is really getting hit by a lot of unnecessary damage or poorly geared. On top of this, we felt that Oathkeeper in particular was in slightly too strong of a position due to the strength of their shields. However, their shields are also the mechanic that makes them feel the most unique when compared with other healers. So while the magnitude adjustments may seem steep, we wanted to adjust the magnitude instead of removing or reducing the unique nature of their spells.

    We will continue to watch how healing performance is on preview, there may be reversals on some of those adjustments or further adjustments leading up to launch, and of course, post launch and in modules down the road, we'll keep making adjustments.

    That said, I do hope everyone will take a close look at the patch notes, a few spells actually were improved, and the relationship between some spells has changed, so you may want to consider changing up your heals depending on the situation.
  • greyjay1greyjay1 Posts: 158Member Arc User
    arazith07 said:

    Not sure where everyone thinks healing was nerfed by 50%. For cleric at least, we lost 50 mag(6.25% less) on Bastion of Health, 20 more divinity per cast(25% more). Cleanse went from 90 cost to 100 divinity (11% more). Healing word: 20% more divinity cost, 17% less mag on the over time heal, 20% less mag on initial hit, and 100% more range. Intercession got a flat 25% mag nerf. Even if you were to combine all the Healing Word changes into one % nerf of Heal/divinity cost with 7 ticks(no extension via feat) you would get a 32% overall nerf on the effectiveness of Healing word.

    Paladins were nerfed by roughly 50%, Divine Touch got nerfed from E_1=500magn/80div to E_2=350magn/100div.
    E_2/E_1 = 56% => reduction in effectiveness of 44%.
    Furthermore the Divinity gained from CoP was reduced from 300 to 120.

    However, this was a deserved nerf in my opinion. Paladin is still very strong and very viable!
  • thefabricantthefabricant Posts: 4,917Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    The changes were made for pve, not for pvp.

    Citation needed.

    The changes were made for pve, not for pvp.

    This is correct. Just because a comment is made in the PvP thread does not mean that is the only reason for adjusting something.
    asterdahl said:

    Actually, these changes were not made for PvP at all. I do think they will improve PvP a bit as healing was probably too strong, but the main reason for these changes was in fact that healing was too strong in PvE. In the trial thread there was a lot of speculation that the healing nerfs were specifically in response to the trial, so I'd like to repost my response from that thread here for those that haven't been following it.

    asterdahl said:

    But as evidenced by the healing nerfs in the last preview patch, the NW devs (designers), under the counsel of preview-BiS players like Sharpedge here, are willing to effect the whole rest of the game for the sake of just this “0.1% content.” That makes us fear what else might be coming, for one, and that’s probably the core of much of the backlash to it.

    I understand the speculation that the healing nerfs were in direct reaction to feedback from the trial, but actually the adjustments to healing were something we have been discussing since Module 16 launched and we got a chance to see how healers performed on live.

    In reality we may actually lower some of the damage in the trial to compensate for the changes. Healing is very strong right now on live, healers very, very rarely run out of resources even in dire situations. Early builds of M16 had much more strenuous resource consumption, and we made a lot of changes without making enough changes elsewhere to compensate.

    We don't want to make the game significantly harder, but we do want healers to be in danger of running out of resources if the group is really getting hit by a lot of unnecessary damage or poorly geared. On top of this, we felt that Oathkeeper in particular was in slightly too strong of a position due to the strength of their shields. However, their shields are also the mechanic that makes them feel the most unique when compared with other healers. So while the magnitude adjustments may seem steep, we wanted to adjust the magnitude instead of removing or reducing the unique nature of their spells.

    We will continue to watch how healing performance is on preview, there may be reversals on some of those adjustments or further adjustments leading up to launch, and of course, post launch and in modules down the road, we'll keep making adjustments.

    That said, I do hope everyone will take a close look at the patch notes, a few spells actually were improved, and the relationship between some spells has changed, so you may want to consider changing up your heals depending on the situation.
    There you go.
  • quickfoot#7851 quickfoot Posts: 331Member Arc User

    Regarding balancing "the haves and have nots", in almost every MMORPG, PVP has always been about a combination of skill *and* gear, leveling, powers, grinding for things that give an advantage, etc (i.e. what you have). If you just want skill based pvp, fps games and those like mortal combat are probably more to your liking.

    Some people are highly opposed to companion player bonuses being active in PVP. While some of these may over perform in PVP, for instance the pig that heals 5% hp ever second you are controlled, and possibly other proc based effects, most of the player bonuses are purely stat bonus. In the case of flat stat bonuses, I don't have any problem w/ these being active in PVP, they aren't any different than using enchants and insignias to min/max your build, something that is harder to accomplish with the combined rating system. Bonuses like Owlbear Cub, Pig, Manticore, etc, I think should be looked at and possibly nerfed or disabled in PVP for the same reason gear like the Curse Bringer ring was.

    Having groups of haves and have not in pvp is why it is deserted place with few venturing into it right now. There is no place to have long term pvp in this type of environment unless your giving away free things to keep people coming. It's like having a restaurant that serves bad food but keeps people coming because they hand out iPads to everyone who comes in and has a meal. The way to keep people coming is to have enjoyable reasons for all people who come by. Once that restaurant stops handing out iPads you will see a major drop in people coming to eat. FYI, the only way to have long term PvP with high population rates is to have a VERY small difference between the abilities of players entering. Like something in the 3% to 5% range of difference in abilities. Which is why they need 2 versions of PvP. The one where items are extremely limited on what works and one that is a no holds bard PvP in terms of what you can use.
    So what you're saying is that we need a different pvp queue that is scaled or somehow limits what people can have, nascar rules in other words. I agree and have said as much else where and almost every other player that does pvp atm also agrees with.

    The reason pvp has a low population atm is because of a few reasons. One rewards suck, you get next to nothing from doing it, like 1 or 2 glory (bug I think), and some seals. Another is the lack of tiers of pvp, grouping of similarly geared players, or scaling (which should be easy to implement now). But there's a subtle difference between saying the problem is because of the "haves and have not" (whether you think we should disable companion bonuses, artifacts, enchants, insignias, gear, etc... all the same thing) and that we need separate tiers, I hope you can see that.


    The thing is, people who wanted to do pvp, used to be able to, relatively cheaply and with less work, jump in the game, spend a little money, and have what they need to be competitive. As time when on, ranks of enchants increase, the addition of legendary mounts and insignias, now legendary pets, etc. The amount of money and time needed to reach max is much greater, so fewer people are able to jump in a spin up a toon for pvp. There's a similar issue here to the new trial coming out, less than one percent of the population will be able to complete it, just like less than one percent of the population can compete in the "no holds barred" version of PVP that we currently have.

  • hustin1hustin1 Posts: 2,998Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    Of course I'm not against dungeons. I'm against sacrificing soloability for them.
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  • tom#6998 tom Posts: 804Member Arc User
    > @hustin1 said:
    > Of course I'm not against dungeons. I'm against sacrificing soloability for them.

    I promise u that those changes will have 0 impact on solo play. Everything will be just as easy as always.
  • thefabricantthefabricant Posts: 4,917Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited July 27
    hustin1 said:



    We just don't. Some of my members **can't** -- they have physical issues that make it difficult for them to run dungeons. We run our dailies and weeklies and some of us run ME's.

    Games should not be designed around people with disabilities unless they are designed from the get go for people with disabilities. The fact of the matter is, only a very small portion of the population suffers from a disability that makes gameplay difficult, you don't alienate the majority (and demonstrably, the majority of people do not suffer from extreme disabilities) for a small portion of the playerbase,
    hustin1 said:

    I know of one guild leader who doesn't want to play her cleric anymore even though it's her favorite because you're about to make it that much harder to play solo as a Devout build. Some have suggested she solo as an Arbiter, but the point is that she **likes** playing as a Devout. Stop pigeonholing us into your preferred play styles.


    You have a solution to a problem and you choose to ignore it. Not every build should be able to do all content, if you are choosing to play something sub optimal and you have a free, easy solution that would make the game much easier for you, then the decision is yours and yours alone. The only person who takes responsibility for it is you and when you are playing a spec that is clearly not intended to solo things (a healer), you shouldn't expect to be able to do it as well as specs that are.
  • auron#6793 auron Posts: 256Member Arc User
    hustin1 said:

    asterdahl said:

    Actually, these changes were not made for PvP at all. I do think they will improve PvP a bit as healing was probably too strong, but the main reason for these changes was in fact that healing was too strong in PvE. In the trial thread there was a lot of speculation that the healing nerfs were specifically in response to the trial, so I'd like to repost my response from that thread here for those that haven't been following it.

    asterdahl said:

    But as evidenced by the healing nerfs in the last preview patch, the NW devs (designers), under the counsel of preview-BiS players like Sharpedge here, are willing to effect the whole rest of the game for the sake of just this “0.1% content.” That makes us fear what else might be coming, for one, and that’s probably the core of much of the backlash to it.

    I understand the speculation that the healing nerfs were in direct reaction to feedback from the trial, but actually the adjustments to healing were something we have been discussing since Module 16 launched and we got a chance to see how healers performed on live.

    In reality we may actually lower some of the damage in the trial to compensate for the changes. Healing is very strong right now on live, healers very, very rarely run out of resources even in dire situations. Early builds of M16 had much more strenuous resource consumption, and we made a lot of changes without making enough changes elsewhere to compensate.

    We don't want to make the game significantly harder, but we do want healers to be in danger of running out of resources if the group is really getting hit by a lot of unnecessary damage or poorly geared. On top of this, we felt that Oathkeeper in particular was in slightly too strong of a position due to the strength of their shields. However, their shields are also the mechanic that makes them feel the most unique when compared with other healers. So while the magnitude adjustments may seem steep, we wanted to adjust the magnitude instead of removing or reducing the unique nature of their spells.

    We will continue to watch how healing performance is on preview, there may be reversals on some of those adjustments or further adjustments leading up to launch, and of course, post launch and in modules down the road, we'll keep making adjustments.

    That said, I do hope everyone will take a close look at the patch notes, a few spells actually were improved, and the relationship between some spells has changed, so you may want to consider changing up your heals depending on the situation.
    You're hurting soloability because you're overly concerned about players who run dungeons. Please stop it. The vast majority of people in my alliance hardly ever run dungeons. We just don't. Some of my members **can't** -- they have physical issues that make it difficult for them to run dungeons. We run our dailies and weeklies and some of us run ME's. I know of one guild leader who doesn't want to play her cleric anymore even though it's her favorite because you're about to make it that much harder to play solo as a Devout build. Some have suggested she solo as an Arbiter, but the point is that she **likes** playing as a Devout. Stop pigeonholing us into your preferred play styles.

    And you wonder why so many people left.
    The fact of it is they don't really seem to care what we players think and that's sad.

    When I first started playing this game I thought it was one of the most unique and fun games out there but so much has been stripped now that it feels like just another generic game.

    Foundry-gone, tallent trees-gone, ability score rolls-gone, guantalgrim-gone

    I just wish they would stop removing what makes this game so unique and fun to play.
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    .....____
    ..../ __ \_________ ______
    .../ / / / ___/ __ `/ ___/
    ../ /_/ / / / /_/ / /__
    /_____/_/ \__'_/\___/
    There is supposed to be an image here, but the hamsters took it.
    <div align="center">AKA Draconis of Luskan</div>

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    RIP Foundry: On that day, when the sky fell away, our world came to an end. ~Lifelight
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