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Are you actually making changes in PVE for PVP again?

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  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Posts: 3,592Member Arc User
    edited August 7

    hustin1 said:



    We just don't. Some of my members **can't** -- they have physical issues that make it difficult for them to run dungeons. We run our dailies and weeklies and some of us run ME's.

    Games should not be designed around people with disabilities unless they are designed from the get go for people with disabilities. The fact of the matter is, only a very small portion of the population suffers from a disability that makes gameplay difficult, you don't alienate the majority (and demonstrably, the majority of people do not suffer from extreme disabilities) for a small portion of the playerbase,
    hustin1 said:

    I know of one guild leader who doesn't want to play her cleric anymore even though it's her favorite because you're about to make it that much harder to play solo as a Devout build. Some have suggested she solo as an Arbiter, but the point is that she **likes** playing as a Devout. Stop pigeonholing us into your preferred play styles.


    You have a solution to a problem and you choose to ignore it. Not every build should be able to do all content, if you are choosing to play something sub optimal and you have a free, easy solution that would make the game much easier for you, then the decision is yours and yours alone. The only person who takes responsibility for it is you and when you are playing a spec that is clearly not intended to solo things (a healer), you shouldn't expect to be able to do it as well as specs that are.
    disabilities or not, it should not be made so basic content cannot be played by every class and every type thru minor content. I agree with the concept that the classes are far too dumbed down and narrow in range compared to what they were.

    I personally wouldn't be so callous as to say screw the handicapped who play. I knew a guy with als who played. this was basically all he got to do before he died. there aren't a lot of social games out there that have mild content that people can just sort of hang out and do. it's valuable. I imagine they spend money. I know I would if I were in that situation.

    yeah, don't base dungeons on people with disabilties. it probably doesn't apply there.. but other things. why would you argue against it?


    https://www.cbc.ca/radio/day6/episode-406-psychedelic-therapy-kaepernick-s-next-move-accessible-gaming-virtual-mogadishu-and-more-1.4804831/xbox-s-adaptive-controller-aims-to-bring-gaming-to-community-of-disabled-players-1.4804836

    so this is really cool. handicapped players might become a larger cash cow going forward with this available to them soon. this is the kind of game that I would think would be pretty perfect.
    Post edited by thefiresidecat on
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  • lemollenlemollen Posts: 102Member Arc User
    So many complains about the game. Why do you still play this? If it is so bad, why not play other games? Seriously is the game fun? Do the same ME, dailies, req, raq, Riq over and over again. It’s very stale. Only thing I find fun is pvp and even that is dead. People say nw is more pve game. But the pve part stinks too.
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Posts: 3,592Member Arc User
    lemollen said:

    So many complains about the game. Why do you still play this? If it is so bad, why not play other games? Seriously is the game fun? Do the same ME, dailies, req, raq, Riq over and over again. It’s very stale. Only thing I find fun is pvp and even that is dead. People say nw is more pve game. But the pve part stinks too.

    if they don't make the old dungeons level 80 and relevant to most players again it's going to take a couple years to catch up with content enough to make it fun again. Even the new dungeon lomm, doesn't have relevant rewards really so it's meh to play. I get better loot from older dungeons and they are just no fun to play because they are too ridiculously easy in a high end group but if you random que for them you get a bunch of people who are massively under stat but hitting cap to be there. just not enjoyable either way.
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  • thefabricantthefabricant Posts: 4,906Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited August 7

    .

    hustin1 said:



    We just don't. Some of my members **can't** -- they have physical issues that make it difficult for them to run dungeons. We run our dailies and weeklies and some of us run ME's.

    Games should not be designed around people with disabilities unless they are designed from the get go for people with disabilities. The fact of the matter is, only a very small portion of the population suffers from a disability that makes gameplay difficult, you don't alienate the majority (and demonstrably, the majority of people do not suffer from extreme disabilities) for a small portion of the playerbase,
    hustin1 said:

    I know of one guild leader who doesn't want to play her cleric anymore even though it's her favorite because you're about to make it that much harder to play solo as a Devout build. Some have suggested she solo as an Arbiter, but the point is that she **likes** playing as a Devout. Stop pigeonholing us into your preferred play styles.


    You have a solution to a problem and you choose to ignore it. Not every build should be able to do all content, if you are choosing to play something sub optimal and you have a free, easy solution that would make the game much easier for you, then the decision is yours and yours alone. The only person who takes responsibility for it is you and when you are playing a spec that is clearly not intended to solo things (a healer), you shouldn't expect to be able to do it as well as specs that are.
    so, designing content around the abilities of only 1% of the population is a waste of time & resources, you say? Interesting...
    There is a distinct difference between designing content that is potentially interesting for everyone, that acts as incentive for them to improve themselves so they are capable of doing it and content which is only interesting to you if you are disabled. For one, it acts as incentive to improve, nobody needs to improve to run something that can literally be done by a blind, 1 handed person. This acts as a reason to stay, since there is still more content you need to do and more "getting good" that needs to happen to do it.

    Two, it facilitates content creation. People who like difficult content, also overlap with the population of people who are interested in writing about said content and with the people who write guides within the community. This acts both as player retention and as free advertisement. The only content creation disabled friendly content will encourage is agenda pushing political bs, which might appeal to some people, but I would hazard a guess and say that many gamers have no interest in if a game appeals to their political agenda and are more interested in playing a good game.

    Three, it encourages forming communities, because you need to work with others to overcome difficult group content, you cannot just do it alone. Players who are engaged in a community are less likely to leave. The only people who are likely to find content aimed at people with disabilities are those people with disabilities, for everyone else, you can do it solo and people who play solo statistically quit faster than people engaged with the community.

    I think those above points highlight sufficiently that what you have done is created a false equivalency, but if you want me to continue, please feel free to ask.

    hustin1 said:



    We just don't. Some of my members **can't** -- they have physical issues that make it difficult for them to run dungeons. We run our dailies and weeklies and some of us run ME's.

    Games should not be designed around people with disabilities unless they are designed from the get go for people with disabilities. The fact of the matter is, only a very small portion of the population suffers from a disability that makes gameplay difficult, you don't alienate the majority (and demonstrably, the majority of people do not suffer from extreme disabilities) for a small portion of the playerbase,
    hustin1 said:

    I know of one guild leader who doesn't want to play her cleric anymore even though it's her favorite because you're about to make it that much harder to play solo as a Devout build. Some have suggested she solo as an Arbiter, but the point is that she **likes** playing as a Devout. Stop pigeonholing us into your preferred play styles.


    You have a solution to a problem and you choose to ignore it. Not every build should be able to do all content, if you are choosing to play something sub optimal and you have a free, easy solution that would make the game much easier for you, then the decision is yours and yours alone. The only person who takes responsibility for it is you and when you are playing a spec that is clearly not intended to solo things (a healer), you shouldn't expect to be able to do it as well as specs that are.
    disabilities or not, it should not be made so basic content cannot be played by every class and every type thru minor content. I agree with the concept that the classes are far too dumbed down and narrow in range compared to what they were.

    I personally wouldn't be so callous as to say screw the handicapped who play. I knew a guy with als who played. this was basically all he got to do before he died. there aren't a lot of social games out there that have mild content that people can just sort of hang out and do. it's valuable. I imagine they spend money. I know I would if I were in that situation.

    yeah, don't base dungeons on people with disabilties. it probably doesn't apply there.. but other things. why would you argue against it?


    https://www.cbc.ca/radio/day6/episode-406-psychedelic-therapy-kaepernick-s-next-move-accessible-gaming-virtual-mogadishu-and-more-1.4804831/xbox-s-adaptive-controller-aims-to-bring-gaming-to-community-of-disabled-players-1.4804836

    so this is really cool. handicapped players might become a larger cash cow going forward with this available to them soon. this is the kind of game that I would think would be pretty perfect.
    I wasn't saying, "screw the disabled people," but what I was saying is, "whilst it was unfortunate you were born with a disability, I am not going to say screw you to all the people who aren't disabled just to accommodate you." And the thing is, I can relate to that on the other side as well. There are a lot of things which I can't do which I would like to be able to do, but I won't penalize the people who can do them just to "pretend" that I can. The fact of the matter is, Neverwinter is not marketed specifically at people with disabilities to begin with. If it was their initial target audience, sure, I would say do everything you can to accommodate them, but since it was not, they should focus more on the people who are mainly playing it, which is an overlap between people who like MMOs and people who like DnD.

    And no, Neverwinter is definitely not the perfect game for people with disabilities. In fact, as an action combat game, it is probably one of the worst genres for people with disabilities, along with platformers and real time strategy. It is a genre where reaction speed is important, as opposed to a turn based strategy game, which is far more friendly to pretty much every disability out there.
  • ecrana#2080 ecrana Posts: 1,492Member Arc User

    so, designing content around the abilities of only 1% of the population is a waste of time & resources, you say? Interesting...

    are we really comparing something someone has no control over (a disability) to something people do have control over (gitting good, altering builds, changing playstyles, etc etc etc)?
  • kemnimtarkaskemnimtarkas Posts: 678Member Arc User
    @thefabricant

    Please stop making comparisons about the ability to play a video game with RL disabilities.

    Doubling down on your rationale isn't going to make the premise of your argument any less distasteful or just flat out wrong headed.
  • thefabricantthefabricant Posts: 4,906Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited August 7

    @thefabricant

    Please stop making comparisons about the ability to play a video game with RL disabilities.

    Doubling down on your rationale isn't going to make the premise of your argument any less distasteful or just flat out wrong headed.

    How about I triple down on it. If you are blind, it impacts your ability to play. Obviously, it is not something that you personally can do anything about and it is unfortunate you are blind, but you do not design your game around the 0.1% of the games population who are blind.

    The point is, player skill is something that can improve over time, many disabilities are permanent. You can design content that is hard for 99% of the population and 98% of the community can get better and run it, if they wish to play it. You can't make content that is accommodating to the 1% of the population that is disabled and make it interesting to the remaining 99%. Which means when you are designing new, "end game content," you make balancing changes around that new content.
    Post edited by thefabricant on
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Posts: 3,592Member Arc User
    edited August 7

    .





    You have a solution to a problem and you choose to ignore it. Not every build should be able to do all content, if you are choosing to play something sub optimal and you have a free, easy solution that would make the game much easier for you, then the decision is yours and yours alone. The only person who takes responsibility for it is you and when you are playing a spec that is clearly not intended to solo things (a healer), you shouldn't expect to be able to do it as well as specs that are.

    disabilities or not, it should not be made so basic content cannot be played by every class and every type thru minor content. I agree with the concept that the classes are far too dumbed down and narrow in range compared to what they were.

    I personally wouldn't be so callous as to say screw the handicapped who play. I knew a guy with als who played. this was basically all he got to do before he died. there aren't a lot of social games out there that have mild content that people can just sort of hang out and do. it's valuable. I imagine they spend money. I know I would if I were in that situation.

    yeah, don't base dungeons on people with disabilties. it probably doesn't apply there.. but other things. why would you argue against it?


    https://www.cbc.ca/radio/day6/episode-406-psychedelic-therapy-kaepernick-s-next-move-accessible-gaming-virtual-mogadishu-and-more-1.4804831/xbox-s-adaptive-controller-aims-to-bring-gaming-to-community-of-disabled-players-1.4804836

    so this is really cool. handicapped players might become a larger cash cow going forward with this available to them soon. this is the kind of game that I would think would be pretty perfect.
    I wasn't saying, "screw the disabled people," but what I was saying is, "whilst it was unfortunate you were born with a disability, I am not going to say screw you to all the people who aren't disabled just to accommodate you." And the thing is, I can relate to that on the other side as well. There are a lot of things which I can't do which I would like to be able to do, but I won't penalize the people who can do them just to "pretend" that I can. The fact of the matter is, Neverwinter is not marketed specifically at people with disabilities to begin with. If it was their initial target audience, sure, I would say do everything you can to accommodate them, but since it was not, they should focus more on the people who are mainly playing it, which is an overlap between people who like MMOs and people who like DnD.

    And no, Neverwinter is definitely not the perfect game for people with disabilities. In fact, as an action combat game, it is probably one of the worst genres for people with disabilities, along with platformers and real time strategy. It is a genre where reaction speed is important, as opposed to a turn based strategy game, which is far more friendly to pretty much every disability out there.


    the end game dungeons aren't but a lot of other content is. the friend I had used to do master crafting and some of the dungeons at a slower pace with people who didn't mind it and stronghold stuff. the daily stuff is doable. that's the beauty of this game. it has a lot of layers for various paces and play styles. or it had that anyway. if you over gear your toon so you can plow thru stuff it makes up for a lot of lacked dexterity. the game doesn't need to be expressly designed for disabled people to be useful and fun and social for them. what they shouldn't do is take away features that they already have that are friendly for disabled people. it's not hurting the other people who aren't disabled at all. I"m not saying make end game dungeons easier for them. it is what it is. but don't take away the things that make it interesting for others of lesser skill sets.

    there is no reason not to have both accommodated.
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  • thefabricantthefabricant Posts: 4,906Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited August 7

    .





    You have a solution to a problem and you choose to ignore it. Not every build should be able to do all content, if you are choosing to play something sub optimal and you have a free, easy solution that would make the game much easier for you, then the decision is yours and yours alone. The only person who takes responsibility for it is you and when you are playing a spec that is clearly not intended to solo things (a healer), you shouldn't expect to be able to do it as well as specs that are.

    disabilities or not, it should not be made so basic content cannot be played by every class and every type thru minor content. I agree with the concept that the classes are far too dumbed down and narrow in range compared to what they were.

    I personally wouldn't be so callous as to say screw the handicapped who play. I knew a guy with als who played. this was basically all he got to do before he died. there aren't a lot of social games out there that have mild content that people can just sort of hang out and do. it's valuable. I imagine they spend money. I know I would if I were in that situation.

    yeah, don't base dungeons on people with disabilties. it probably doesn't apply there.. but other things. why would you argue against it?


    https://www.cbc.ca/radio/day6/episode-406-psychedelic-therapy-kaepernick-s-next-move-accessible-gaming-virtual-mogadishu-and-more-1.4804831/xbox-s-adaptive-controller-aims-to-bring-gaming-to-community-of-disabled-players-1.4804836

    so this is really cool. handicapped players might become a larger cash cow going forward with this available to them soon. this is the kind of game that I would think would be pretty perfect.
    I wasn't saying, "screw the disabled people," but what I was saying is, "whilst it was unfortunate you were born with a disability, I am not going to say screw you to all the people who aren't disabled just to accommodate you." And the thing is, I can relate to that on the other side as well. There are a lot of things which I can't do which I would like to be able to do, but I won't penalize the people who can do them just to "pretend" that I can. The fact of the matter is, Neverwinter is not marketed specifically at people with disabilities to begin with. If it was their initial target audience, sure, I would say do everything you can to accommodate them, but since it was not, they should focus more on the people who are mainly playing it, which is an overlap between people who like MMOs and people who like DnD.

    And no, Neverwinter is definitely not the perfect game for people with disabilities. In fact, as an action combat game, it is probably one of the worst genres for people with disabilities, along with platformers and real time strategy. It is a genre where reaction speed is important, as opposed to a turn based strategy game, which is far more friendly to pretty much every disability out there.


    the end game dungeons aren't but a lot of other content is. the friend I had used to do master crafting and some of the dungeons at a slower pace with people who didn't mind it and stronghold stuff. the daily stuff is doable. that's the beauty of this game. it has a lot of layers for various paces and play styles. or it had that anyway. if you over gear your toon so you can plow thru stuff it makes up for a lot of lacked dexterity. the game doesn't need to be expressly designed for disabled people to be useful and fun and social for them. what they shouldn't do is take away features that they already have that are friendly for disabled people. it's not hurting the other people who aren't disabled at all. I"m not saying make end game dungeons easier for them. it is what it is. but don't take away the things that make it interesting for others of lesser skill sets.

    there is no reason not to have both accommodated.
    And nothing has been taken away. The things that could be soloed before, can still be soloed now. I would argue that m16 is easier than m15, it just takes longer to do content. When cradle came out, a person with debilitating physical disabilities could not run that. When CR came out, they could not run that either. M17 has about exactly the same amount of solo-able content as either of those mods had, in the form of MEs. None of this takes away from the fact that there is a very valid reason to put a large amount of development time into mechanically challenging content.

    Every class can do all basic content. The person I was originally responding to when this tangent came up, was complaining because they wanted to solo on a build explicitly not designed for doing solo content. Demanding to be able to solo on something not designed to be soloed with, when you can freely switch to something that is designed to be soloed with, is purely a fault of the player. It may be unfortunate that they have some form of disability inhibiting their ability to play, but that doesn't mean that suddenly you should do class balance around that. Sure, it is possible to hypothetically design a build for a class that cannot do anything, but that is not the games fault if a solution exists and they are refusing to take it.
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Posts: 3,592Member Arc User
    micky1p00 said:

    .





    You have a solution to a problem and you choose to ignore it. Not every build should be able to do all content, if you are choosing to play something sub optimal and you have a free, easy solution that would make the game much easier for you, then the decision is yours and yours alone. The only person who takes responsibility for it is you and when you are playing a spec that is clearly not intended to solo things (a healer), you shouldn't expect to be able to do it as well as specs that are.

    disabilities or not, it should not be made so basic content cannot be played by every class and every type thru minor content. I agree with the concept that the classes are far too dumbed down and narrow in range compared to what they were.

    I personally wouldn't be so callous as to say screw the handicapped who play. I knew a guy with als who played. this was basically all he got to do before he died. there aren't a lot of social games out there that have mild content that people can just sort of hang out and do. it's valuable. I imagine they spend money. I know I would if I were in that situation.

    yeah, don't base dungeons on people with disabilties. it probably doesn't apply there.. but other things. why would you argue against it?


    https://www.cbc.ca/radio/day6/episode-406-psychedelic-therapy-kaepernick-s-next-move-accessible-gaming-virtual-mogadishu-and-more-1.4804831/xbox-s-adaptive-controller-aims-to-bring-gaming-to-community-of-disabled-players-1.4804836

    so this is really cool. handicapped players might become a larger cash cow going forward with this available to them soon. this is the kind of game that I would think would be pretty perfect.

    I wasn't saying, "screw the disabled people," but what I was saying is, "whilst it was unfortunate you were born with a disability, I am not going to say screw you to all the people who aren't disabled just to accommodate you." And the thing is, I can relate to that on the other side as well. There are a lot of things which I can't do which I would like to be able to do, but I won't penalize the people who can do them just to "pretend" that I can. The fact of the matter is, Neverwinter is not marketed specifically at people with disabilities to begin with. If it was their initial target audience, sure, I would say do everything you can to accommodate them, but since it was not, they should focus more on the people who are mainly playing it, which is an overlap between people who like MMOs and people who like DnD.

    And no, Neverwinter is definitely not the perfect game for people with disabilities. In fact, as an action combat game, it is probably one of the worst genres for people with disabilities, along with platformers and real time strategy. It is a genre where reaction speed is important, as opposed to a turn based strategy game, which is far more friendly to pretty much every disability out there.


    the end game dungeons aren't but a lot of other content is. the friend I had used to do master crafting and some of the dungeons at a slower pace with people who didn't mind it and stronghold stuff. the daily stuff is doable. that's the beauty of this game. it has a lot of layers for various paces and play styles. or it had that anyway. if you over gear your toon so you can plow thru stuff it makes up for a lot of lacked dexterity. the game doesn't need to be expressly designed for disabled people to be useful and fun and social for them. what they shouldn't do is take away features that they already have that are friendly for disabled people. it's not hurting the other people who aren't disabled at all. I"m not saying make end game dungeons easier for them. it is what it is. but don't take away the things that make it interesting for others of lesser skill sets.

    there is no reason not to have both accommodated.
    (not replying to you directly, but to this topic)

    I think there are separate issues here. In general, power creep used to accommodate this, for people with lower reflexes, disabilities, or just age (and we all are not getting younger and faster) could be compensated with gear, and a suitable build.

    Some mechanics like the push-pull were an exception (especially in various pre-nerf variations) but in general, power creep had this as a major benefit.

    Currently scaling with caps is killing this. And this is the main reason why I was so against this type of 'scaling', instead of various suggestions with mainly diminishing return scaling, which means very very low power creep but still allows players who need to compensate with more gear to do so.

    The second thing, that I think implied in the discussion (which I confess that I didn't read in depth) is about the new content, which was already stated that will be adjusted significantly when it will be introduced into the public queue, (in a couple of mods or so) and when a replacement as "top challenge" is planned. Also the regular difficulty of the coming dungeons will have the regular difficulty balance like today.

    So if the topic is the new content, I don't think it's valid complaint.
    If the topic is the general caps what limit players ability to compensate some lack of skill (doesn't matter the reason), then it's a valid concern.

    In general, not all content should be aimed at everyone, or majority. Targeted content is much more efficient in terms of retention and enjoyment, where each subgroup gets what fits it. Instead of trying to aim everything to everyone.
    Same way a themepark has various rides and attractions for various ages. The end goal is for a single park to have rides to appeal to different audiences, and at the end the park as a whole, can appeal to multiple audiences.
    well stated this is more or less what I was trying to say.
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  • gripnir78gripnir78 Posts: 365Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited August 13
    @noworries#8859 @asterdahl


    IF that game would have seperated mechanics for PVP and PVE then there would be no reason to any assumptions that classes are nerfed becouse pvp side of game or vice versa.

    So, please dont be suprised that people simply dont belive you or your followers.
    Years of lies and not kept promises put you in a situtation where no1 belives in your claims any more.

    What is really wrong here is that PVP and PVE oriented players are going against each other here.
    Instead both sides should press you to finally separate systems to avoid any further balance breaking changes for pvp or pve reasons.

    But that wont happen as this game is already running in maintenance mode.....
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