Exactly! As I said the SW is not bad, but it will not be top dps if you get dps of the same level of power, equipment ... etc I already spent a lot of CW with 25k, which are not using the best equipments, such as set orcus, rings of%, chest etc. But if you get the same level you will lose. Magnitude of the Sw is very low has no way.
My first LoMM was at 100k power. 90k CA, and had to put on stuff to just get itemlvl to enter. My warlock was less than a week old at that point. I had no issues killing mimics. I had no issues doing expected dmg for my stats or beat tanks. And i didnt use doohickey. I had it as backup in case i needed for mimics but that was it.
I have 6% ranged dmg, i have shadowstalker +5, i have spy guild for 5% dmg. The 6% and the shadow stalker is not what is making or breaking my toon. I could do just as well without them. I use the musicbox set, so no demo bonus. I have no pet powers for extra dmg, its all just random HAMSTER flat stat powers i had or got cheap.
Only thing that changed since my first LoMM was getting 20k more power and 10k more CA. Neither made a huge impact, just a little bit.
Does my warlock have less dmg than several other classes in the first 2 sec in combat? Yes. Can i keep up in longer fights? Yes. If ur warlock is losing in dmg because most mobs are dead in the first 2 sec on combat, that doesnt mean the warlock is in a bad state. That means the warlock needs longer fights to shine. Welcome to difference in how classes do and are played. Stop making them all the same and start to enjoy the variations.
They made feats more simple. They gave us less options. But that doesnt mean everything is good. Most stuff on other classes have big difference too. Or everything is just trash. So why complain that the warlock have good feats if u have the skill to read and pick the right ones?
I dont base my statments on Lomm, lomm is very very easy, but on the experience i made when testing the new trial with sharpedge and the others on preview just so u know. I dont expect u to be able to judge how the Peak performance of Warlock looks compared with the best of the other classes since u are far away from that, but from what i read u arent in the best position to judge how much the Warlock is lacking at the top end. To do more or equal to 99% of other players in the game says nothing about how much the warlock is behind or ahead, because players in this game have so vastly different levels of skill.
ToMM have been out for about 4 days. U guys have all capped ur stats on preview and become masters of the new mechanics where no one fails and dies ? Well done. That LoMM is easy doesnt mean its not a good way to test things though. No matter what itemlvl u are at. U just have to look at the test differently and excluded something like adds on strong groups.
I have a strong rogue, that beats the majority of anyone ive ever gone with. That one have been beaten by a warlock. So yes i do have some knowledge about how they are at endgame and how strong they can be fully geared out. But even so, once u get the stats capped, all classes scale pretty much the same from having tons of power. So if my warlock can keep up at current power levels, it can keep up at high power too.
Yes players do have a lot of different levels of skill. Thats why i base my observations on both what i see vs players of worse skill, about the same, and some with more. Its based on observations with different classes different stats. Some more, some less. Ive seen way more bad warlocks than i have seen bad ones. Still doesnt mean the class is broken.
I am happy that u are able to play with the players u think is amount the top 1% or less of all players. That u are to bad to keep up with them doesnt mean the class needs buffs though.
yes we capped our stats... on preview u have basicly unlimited resources so thats not hard to do...
Well u dont really get it right? Even if my or your SW outdpses 99.9% of the playerbase that doesnt mean HAMSTER. U have to compare the best of each classes. Im not saying SW cant do dps, but a 20% difference is still a 20% difference. If you are on PC then lets do a run together, if you are doubting that my sw is any good. Only because u outdpsed some mediocere players that doenst mean SW is on even footing with lets say the cw.
CW is somewhat highly tuned at the moment, so I wouldn't even bring it up in this conversation. I consider it more of an outlier tbh, and I expect that the devs will either bring it down a tad or try to elevate the other DPS slightly to narrow the gap. We'll see.
The back-and-forth on Warlock has been going since M16 went live. My bottom line is that Hellbringer could use some further QoL tweaks and has too many useless powers, but some people around here have been pushing the narrative that it's a bad DPS when it clearly is not. Sometimes I find that these people are using non-synergistic powers, gearing strangely, or making some other mistakes that seriously tank their DPS output, and then blaming their problems on the base class design rather than reevaluating their approach.
Soulweaver has way more issues than Hellbringer, but its disadvantages are hugely exaggerated on the forums. I agree with the consensus that it needs serious changes and an overall buff, but it's not completely unplayable by any means; it simply can't carry with the effortlessness of Devout and Oathkeeper for the kind of mechanic found at the Bore Worm, where you have repeated soaks with limited or no ways to recover Sparks.
It's fine to suggest improvement to Warlock in some areas, and no, it's not currently at the same level as, say, CW, but not much of anything else is at the moment. IMO the devs need to be careful with Warlock adjustments, because a tweak here or there could easily push it into overtuned status.
As for the discussion around the alleged top 0.1% of the playerbase...yes and no. You can make the argument that these players and their characters represent the pinnacle of performance for their respective classes (which is sometimes true and sometimes not), and that has some relevance to game design. On the other hand, the developers need to be concerned more with the other 99.9% of the population and their experiences with the game. Those of us with an abundance of high-ranking enchantments and equipment generally don't have a pressing need to buy Zen, because we are already rich in AD and other assets. Hence, Cryptic probably cares a good deal more about the experience Average Joe or Jane Player is having, and they are very far away from caring about theorycraft or about end-game testing. This is part of why I now spend less time arguing that Warlock isn't in a terrible place, because apparently something is causing more than a handful of players to struggle. If they can address whatever that is without making Warlock ridiculously strong, I'm all for it.
Well sadly there are often 2 types of commentors on these threads:
Number 1 hasnt figured out their character yet and is struggling alot and therefore saying the class is terrible and cant do anything. Which is obviously not true.
There are also comments of ppl who outdps some -fill in the blank- class in a random run, and therefore the class is completely fine.
Im not saying SW isnt viable, or that it needs to be buffed ALOT.
Altough i can understand that people are getting frustrated since the class has more or less taken a backseat since mod 10.5
A 10-20% dmg buff combined with some QOL changed would bring the class to a much better place.
U keep comparing urself to the wizards. who no class can beat atm because they are simply to strong on equal level and skill. Just because 1 class is broken doesnt mean they should break all other classes to satisfy someones ego cause they must be number 1 DPS always.
I am on PC, and ur welcome to come beat me. Im sure u could. But that would only prove the warlock doesnt need buffs.
The biggest problem with warlock isnt the dmg, its not the low magnitude encounters. The problem seems to be that the majority of players cant play it. Give the class huge buffs isnt gonna fix that, its just gonna create a class that no one have a chance to beat at equal level, just like the wizard is now. So ur not really wanting to solve the problems with the warlock, u just want the dmg buffed so ur class will always be number 1 in dps no matter what for ur own ego.
And everyone, specially these 0.01% of players u play with, knows that the dmg meter in game cant be trusted. Who ever runs the fastest will have the lead. Who have the most upfront dmg will get the lead. And since mod 16 adds in a run now have a pretty big % of overall HP in the dungeon compared to before. So this matters a lot for the ingame dmg counter. And the warlock does not have the big magnitudes to beat many other classes in the first 2-3 sec on combat oneshotting all groups before anyone can hit them. But the warlock have plenty dmg to compete in longer fights. And if u get the magnitudes buffed, so that u can oneshot groups, get the dmg before anyone else gets to the mob. Ur just creating a problem where groups who doesnt oneshot things, the warlock will reck everyone on dmg, because they have the upfront high dmg, but also the strong dmg over time.
Thats how warlocks works. So if u want all magnitudes buffed by that much, then all DoTs and passive dmg buffs should be reduced by just as much or more to make the class balanced. Personally i like balanced classes, and not just "buff MY class so I can beat ALL other classes" kind of solutions to stroke someones ego.
Do u use tene enchantments? Where is ur envenomed story tellers journal ? Both of those would be about 10-15% DPS increase overall in something like LoMM. Or u can use the leg griffon equip power + Wyvern artifact for 30% of encounters every 15 sec. I know some use that setup. There are many things that play into who or why someone will be top DPS on the chart. Not just the state of the class. What about doohickey? Do u use that one every 30 sec?
@fyrstigor I do not have this artifact envenomed. This artifact is very broken. In fact all that has to do with poison is with very high damage.
I use [Doohickey] yes every 30 sec, the damage is in average 150k to 250k dmg very high.
griffon equip power + Wyvern cd reduction really is very good, but I have not tested it since I do not have this mount.
I use the dc artifact to have quicker daily along with the [Vivified Primal Raid Viatus] boots, for "mobs [Accursed Souls]." "And for boss [Tyrannical Curse]"
The point is not that we want the unbeatable SW, we want competitive.
Other Dps with same items CW, DC, TR and HR, we lose.
Of course it depends on getting faster on the mobs, if we get along with sw we will lose.
Note: Class Feature I use - [Dust to Dust] [No Pity, No Mercy] Do you use the same or different?
Dust to Dust on AoE, All-Consuming curse on single target.
Once u hit those 140k+ power trash dies to fast in LoMM. Specially if all in the group are strong players. Only on bosses u can see any real status of how the class is performing. Cause when everything is dead in a matter of 3 sec all ur testing is who have the most upfront dmg. Run ACT, look only at bosses. And if ur running LoMM, second boss isnt in warlock favor since ur most likely to drop the Risky investment on boulder phases, and thats 25% lost dmg on encounters. Depending on how strong ur groups are, the other bosses might not even live long enough for u to get those 5 stacks.
But when ur not running with super groups u have those things. So buffing warlocks because super groups kills to fast, will mean mediocre warlocks will suddenly reck anyone else in dmg. Making the warlock unbalanced.
Again the warlock isnt broken. Things just might just not survive long enough for the class to get its full dmg potential.
Ur welcome to hit me up ingame at @fyrst_igor if u wanna run vs my rogue.
This debate is turning into the poster child for "going over the same old ground" as nobody is saying anything new, just finding ways to repeat the same thing slightly differently worded, with some faux creative ways of calling each other stupid sprinkled in. Of course that is not going to stop me from adding my two cents, using yet another set of words and restating things that have been stated and re-stated and re-re-stated and.. Well you get the idea..
The way the warlock is designed makes hitting the top of the Paingiver pretty hard (given comparable DPS competitors). Our damage is not really front loaded, so before our stuff starts kicking in most things will already be dead. It also makes comparing DPS using that Paingiver chart a losing proposition most of the time. Warlocks can do decent damage, especially in longer fights, but the way it is tuned at the moment means that (when compared to a lot of "equal" other classes) it seems to be 10 to 30 percent behind. It also seems nobody has set up any real testing on this though, Everyone keeps referring to dungeon runs with way too many random variables involved, as if those are able to prove anything . At best we can go with the general consensus, and right now that seems to be that 10-30% range. But I am sure someone will forget the "anecdote != fact" rules and quote some examples. And yes, I know there is way to many "seems" in this, but it is the best we have right now.
The warlock play-style is clunky (if I am being charitable I could call it "involved" or "a lot of work") and this makes it too easy to be bad at it. The ledge you have to walk is very narrow (very limited spectrum of viable powers/features) and if you move off the ledge, the Warlock's DPS will plummet rapidly. For most other classes things are significantly more forgiving. This leads to people getting frustrated with the class quite often, which influences the shared perspective on the class as "bad". Luckily there are a lot of Warlocks willing to help other people find that ledge, but the fact that we have to do so is still hurting us.
Soulweaver is not able to meet the healing demands that the end-game content puts on it and has a lot of, lets be forgiving again and say "weird", powers and effects. Part of this is likely unintended, but a significant part of this is simply its design. It needs work. Will there be examples of people defying the odds and Soulweaving their way through LOMM or TOMM? Sure there will, and those people and their friends/party members/pets/grandmothers will keep bringing it up. And I am sure Schietindebux will keep shooting them down (thx ).
I have been playing a Warlock as my main since it came into the game. We have had good times, we have had insanely overpowered times and we have had (significantly more) bad times. Right now is not a great time to me, in part because the abundance of issues has cause most of my warlock friends to find greener pastures. But also because the warlock feels like its lagging behind the curve. The "reward" for the amount of effort required is off to me and so, the class needs work. Careful tweaks for the DPS path, significant changes for the healing path.
-looks at the newly raked patch of "same old" ground and waits for the next bulldozer-
I dont think CW 'broken' coz i hv seen HR and TR doing similar very high dps. So what's the different between this 3 dps classes compare to other dps classes. Pure dps class? same dev that 'rework' this classes? others? dot dot dot...
I dont think CW 'broken' coz i hv seen HR and TR doing similar very high dps. So what's the different between this 3 dps classes compare to other dps classes. Pure dps class? same dev that 'rework' this classes? others? dot dot dot...
I don't buy into the "pure DPS" theory I see occasionally on the forums, because not only does it not make sense, it's not consistent with communication from the development team. Penalizing a class for having hybrid powers is only a thing when they can use the best of both kits at the same time, so I truly don't think that CW, HR, and TR are designed to be strong because they lack a non-DPS path option.
It just comes down to mistakes being made and there being opportunity to shore up the other DPS paths to greater or lesser degrees.
The funniest thing is about how Warlock shined in longer fights. That was the case before mod 16 but now, tbh i dont see that happening. And @fyrstigor i did base my tests statments on ACT...
Are u so sure that a 10-20% dmg buff and maybe a bit of QOL would lead to the average SW destroying other equal geared classes in dmg?
Cause in my experience the Average Warlock i see in Random runs or in my Alliance underperforms alot more then warlocks at the top end.
The funniest thing is about how Warlock shined in longer fights.
That was the case before mod 16 but now, tbh i dont see that happening.
And @fyrstigor i did base my tests statments on ACT...
Are u so sure that a 10-20% dmg buff and maybe a bit of QOL would lead to the average SW destroying other equal geared classes in dmg?
Cause in my experience the Average Warlock i see in Random runs or in my Alliance underperforms alot more then warlocks at the top end.
I see my own warlock as average in terms of stats. And its strong right now at equal stats. I beat a good player on a stronger fighter the other day, a fighter about equal to my own. Both AoE and single target. I know fighters are near the bottom DPS right now, but i also know how much my own fighter does vs wizards, rogues and hunters of equal stats and player skill. So i have a pretty good idea how my own classes would perform if i could play them against each other. And a 10-20% dmg buff would be to much, and not needed in my opinion.
I have also seen better geared warlocks, and players who main warlocks and have for years not do great on them. But thats not because the warlock is weak, or bad, or need buffs. Its because of player errors. They make wrong choices, or they play it badly.
Most intersting to me is the repeated statement that warlock player have a 20-30% lack in intelligence to build or play their class correctly If I sum it up you have: GF set as tank, Paladin set as tank and healer DC set as healer and also passes warlock as dps (yes indeed) Hunter, TR, CW all of them have the needed intellect to play their class and get rewarded in terms of dps. Barbie, hm, not first pick as a tank, even though i witnessed some pretty good ones allready, dps- in the same boat as warlocks "too dump to play". Hellbringer- lacks in 20-30% intelligence, Soulweaver far below Devout or Oathkeeper... only some few guys think it works but I doubt they have any clue about other classes , playing in their own little universe all time not aware of all that bugs and underwhelming powers.
I am always much amused by people that go "well I do fine, so other people must be stupid and doing it wrong". I love a well crafted personal ego boosting anecdote formulated to masquerade as a fact. Although the opposite is every bit as amusing "I do horrible so the class must be totally broken". Just as ego driven and also totally anecdotal. I get a lot of laughs on these forums (and yes, I know, ego based snobbery.. I am not claiming I am immune )
But when we look at the overall picture and try to filter out all the BS and try to combine it with the (ACT) numbers, from multiple sources and viewpoints, the picture that emerges is one where the Warlock is not in a great place. I for one do not think calling out numbers like 10-20% is all that helpful, lets just start with the simple conclusion that Warlocks need to be looked at and that serious issues exist. will be hard enough to agree on that part and possibly get acknowledgement or explanations from the powers that be.
I feel that they over tuned the 3 dps only classes and those classes that can get into multiple roles they made them lesser quality dps classes that can just barely fill that role or their other roles. The only class that I can see in the future as being best in both roles is the paladin/wizard classes. The fact that the paladin is the only class that can give shields to other players is a huge detriment to the other tank and healer classes. The fact that the CW can crit at such a high rate means that class over performs right now. Another issue with why the CW works so well is that the feats actually compliment the class instead of like the barb where you take feats that you don't even use. The barb and paladin tanks in the future will be less than wanted in end game as well as anything other than CW/HR/TR will be wanted in end game dps if they continue what they are doing. The sad part is I feel they have intentionally broken parts of what works on the CW class to lower their dps already.
Guild Leader: Under the Influence Yule (Barb): 72k : Siren (TR): 78k : Torun (DC): 73k : Siren OP (OP): 76k : Siren SW (SW): 78k : Modern (F): 80k : Cherry1 (CW) : 68k Siren HR (HR): 78k
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
edited July 2019
The closest I have seen a Warlock come to my Wizard's dps in either controlled tests or in Tower of the Mad Mage is 70%. Rogue comes close, other classes not so much. Rangers interestingly enough are very good in short fights (pretty much anything on live including Lair of the Mad Mage) but are completely surpassed by a significant margin (moreso than SW) in any long duration fights (like Tower of the Mad Mage).
I think dev should look at warlock feats,and class features synergy with class mechanic 'curse'. Maybe try to implement wizard like approach. Feats and class features actually 'improve' the curse mechanic. Maybe hiting a curse target grant CA and DOT dmg and with 'feated' curse give extra dmg but no more DOT dmg. Just maybe... No need to increase skills magnitude just work around curse mechanic, we r warlock. Cursing people our main expertise.
Most intersting to me is the repeated statement that warlock player have a 20-30% lack in intelligence to build or play their class correctly If I sum it up you have: GF set as tank, Paladin set as tank and healer DC set as healer and also passes warlock as dps (yes indeed) Hunter, TR, CW all of them have the needed intellect to play their class and get rewarded in terms of dps. Barbie, hm, not first pick as a tank, even though i witnessed some pretty good ones allready, dps- in the same boat as warlocks "too dump to play". Hellbringer- lacks in 20-30% intelligence, Soulweaver far below Devout or Oathkeeper... only some few guys think it works but I doubt they have any clue about other classes , playing in their own little universe all time not aware of all that bugs and underwhelming powers.
You probably do have to admit, though, that many players struggle with Warlock for no good reason other than lack of knowledge. There have been way too many posters around here going on about how their Hellbringer is worse DPS than a Justicar of similar gear and such, which is either intentional exaggeration or a lack of effort to learn and practice better ways of playing.
However, this is nothing new. Many players insisted even in M15 that DPS Warlock builds weren't viable despite proof to the contrary. We'd be seeing the same issue right now with Wizards except that even a bad Wizard can currently get something done as long as they happen to throw darts and hit mostly the right feats on the Powers sheet. Warlocks who don't understand their class mechanics and don't build and play to optimize for them are going to do VERY poor damage.
IMO what Warlock needs aside from some QoL and (modest) balance tweaks is a broader selection of viable build options and Powers. While this is true to an extent of every class, I feel that making one or two "bad" choices with Warlock is extremely punishing and is part of why there are such drastically varying opinions on the state of the class.
I wish it were true that Sw is good and competing with others.
See I am not saying that Sw bad, but as I said with the same IL and equipment will hardly win from a CW, TR, HR, GWF and DC, I do not speak of the GF because I do not see much GF Dps.
But the truth is that very easy to check in the Enclave in the LFG "need dps CW, TR and HR. If Sw was good as some say, I believe the LFG would be different is not it?
I play with Sw of the launch mod 6, we were tops dps, we were the worst in order.
Because of the embers in this, we have been promised imbalance between the dps classes and supports and this is not what it looks like.
You who say that Sw is very good and are the ppls that are not known to lead, please teach us how to play I am open to tips. I believe everyone here too.
You probably do have to admit, though, that many players struggle with Warlock for no good reason other than lack of knowledge. There have been way too many posters around here going on about how their Hellbringer is worse DPS than a Justicar of similar gear and such, which is either intentional exaggeration or a lack of effort to learn and practice better ways of playing.
However, this is nothing new. Many players insisted even in M15 that DPS Warlock builds weren't viable despite proof to the contrary. We'd be seeing the same issue right now with Wizards except that even a bad Wizard can currently get something done as long as they happen to throw darts and hit mostly the right feats on the Powers sheet. Warlocks who don't understand their class mechanics and don't build and play to optimize for them are going to do VERY poor damage.
IMO what Warlock needs aside from some QoL and (modest) balance tweaks is a broader selection of viable build options and Powers. While this is true to an extent of every class, I feel that making one or two "bad" choices with Warlock is extremely punishing and is part of why there are such drastically varying opinions on the state of the class.
That is the main issue. Choosing the right powers is like indiana jones choosing the holy grail in the last crusade. If you guys check what Powers i stated on the main post you'll see that those are the Powers no one is/should be using. Apart from a modest 5% upgrade in damage with soul sparks and an easier way to stack ri. And, well, the disaster of soulweaver
Anyway, idc anymore. I'm finishing the campaigns on my fighter so warlock's gonna grow spiderwebs for some time
@vorphied agree somehow but, I did not refer towards those ones who only deal 30% of what should be possible, I talk about player that run every setup, got all stats correct, do correct rotations etc but allways get insulted to do something wrong in this thread since they miss 20 to 30% , even though they play the class since launch, know all ups and downs. There is no base to discuss between a full-time warlock and sometime warlock, unaware wich powers to use. Beside that the powers to use are pretty obvious imo no rocket science. And there was not much wisdom spread about how to do things better... no hidden or unexpected pro tips, nada, a lot of empty words beside a pretty onside judgement from those, who know and play the class since ages.
@gonzakotwi I agree about HB partly, about Soulweaver I really don't think it would change a lot, the path and some powers like Wraith Shadow are so underwhelming or bugged..
If I read comments about warlocks that do fine compared to all others classes on their alt-warlock and get sometimes passed on their main class by some warlocks (equally geared) I can only pull one conclusion out of this. He underperforms on his main class and does a great job on his alt somehow... maybe.. or he simply can´judge objective about the current situation.
I run against many player and classes also warlocks, some did better some don´t, no matter how their equip is, I can scale it up pretty much and interpret the result like yesterday, that lock did better than me even dealing 60 mio vs my 80 mio, simple as that. If my CW or TR on a same level drops of against a SW the situation is pretty obvious imo.
Anyway, I don´t want to put more efforts into threats that don´t lead to anything else than dissense and confusion. There are no improvements in sight since no single comment from devs side indicates anything like that, even not for Soulweaver that is a pretty wasted loadout (got two.. or three)
The closest I have seen a Warlock come to my Wizard's dps in either controlled tests or in Tower of the Mad Mage is 70%. Rogue comes close, other classes not so much. Rangers interestingly enough are very good in short fights (pretty much anything on live including Lair of the Mad Mage) but are completely surpassed by a significant margin (moreso than SW) in any long duration fights (like Tower of the Mad Mage).
Have to add that role in TotMM needs to be valuated with different eyes, as hellbringer has close to 0 utility and weak survivability tools (or at least I'm missing them :P ). Ranger can provide tankiness with fox, Rogue can provide pty CA on dps check by smokebomb, barbarian has a shared buff, Wizards can slot shield on phases 1-3 and unslot it for dps checks. Hellbringer has 0 party utility and in order to get tankier warlock should slot stuff like Infernal Spheres, Blades or Vampiric Embrace (with the latter that's not working since started playing). Soulweaver is way weaker than cleric as second healer, only Pillar could give a reason to get one in a team, loosing some mitigation and overall worser heals. True in easy content like LotMM is possible covering difference with specific (NPNM, running ahead, saving TC at start of bosses, etc) but, as @tom#6998 stated, as you get into hard content class tend to significantly underperform, spite balancing is "in a quite good state". That's bad because not having meta on both roles is kinda bad. TL;DR: I agree on 30% less than wizard/rogue, with relevant QoL improvements needed (plenty of proposals there): just check casting times and u know where to start. True we're not alone, barbie and fighters are in an even worser state dps-wise, but at least their tank spec is good, while soulweaver..
DPS Warlocks used to be meh on AOE but strong in boss fights in previous mods, especially when the fight was lasting long. We were complaining at that time that reaching the full potential was long because of the DoTs; In this mod, I somehow regret these dots and I wish I still had the 30% (25?) creeping death capstone damage...
Now warlocks magnitudes are low with no tools to catch up: don't tell me about the ability to reduce cooldown because everything is killed before we can use properly and some other classes have also the ability to reduce cooldowns (by feats or class features). Even if some warlock feats give +10% more damage and +25% if you get lucky in a veryyyy long fight (with no interruption), the damage will still be low because the base was too low to start with: For example hadar's grasp is 175 magnitude (which is one of the best warlock encounter and is mandatory if you want to achieve the +25%more damage): even with around 10% more damage from a feat and +25%more damage coming from the 5x5%of "risky investment" given by soul investiture, the final max damage will be an absolutely amazingggg ....236,25magnitude! It is not fair to achieve such a low damage after struggling to stack self-buff for nearly one minute (in a perfect situation), and there is no other proc to save the day .... In comparison (raw figures not taking into account the self-buffs, procs, extra crit severity or cd reductions of classes):
I would like: -to have tab reworked: either increase dramatically soul scorch damage (because it does about the same damage as a cleric or a rogue most powerful at-will, with the same cast time) and/or do what some other posters suggested . Also the cooldown reduction given by the tab is indeed nice only if people choose to pick the corresponding feat, so please bear in mind that this effect is just a cherry on top and should not be taken as obvious when you rework the tab. -magnitudes: why on Earth do we have the lowest magnitudes for encounters ???? Killing flame is the only one big-hitting one, others are just passable or are a necessary step to grant other effects (like curse consume or puppet spawn). The somewhat lower cooldown does not justify this, especially if you consider dps overtime (damage per minute). They need to be buffed urgently because I know that feats will not be reworked anytime soon. -AOE: please increase the radius of fiery bolt because it is clearly too limited and tend not to hit targets behind. -AOE: hellfire ring: please reduce the cast time. It is atrocious to wait and see the mobs going away before it lands. Should be instant like the good old pillar of power (considering that we have to target the location in addition). It is already a small zone, why adding difficulty with cast time? It just makes this encounter even more clunky. -AOE: curse bite; the cooldown reduction does not work on this encounter -utility: in the past, dps path had no utility but had dps to compensate. Now dps is meh and still no utility, no cc, no resistance, no debuff, no added value in group. Please let us have a role: strong dps or less strong dps with utility (I would prefer soulweaver role to get more utility though). -mono: the preview patch notes dated 22Mar2019 said that "vampiric embrace now properly spawns a soul puppet": it was never implemented while it could be a nice addition to have another encounter enabling to stack risky investment quicker. -Dailies: reduce accursed souls activation time and rework gates of hell and flames of phlegestos that have really no utility. Also why do we have the lowest magnitude for dailies among classes ?
Currently DPS warlock survives because of bugged at-wills and a few other things but he is actually in a BAD position. I prefer to say that he is bad, because saying he is not *that* bad (which is also true) will not improve the situation. Just look at what dps classes are most played in Lomm and you will have a hint on the perception of class "balance" (note that some dps classes completely disappeared from the radar, like dps fighter). @nitocris83 I am not usually particularly whiney and I was hopeful about the "further tweaks will be done in mod 16" but when I read the message of Noworries saying that they think that balance is in good place, I lost faith (maths don't lie). The previous posters gave some good ideas.
can we get some insight from a dev @noworries or someone.. this banter is annoying and its probably useless.. do you devs plan on fixing SWs or should we slowly wheen off of neverwinter.. again
can we get some insight from a dev @noworries or someone.. this banter is annoying and its probably useless.. do you devs plan on fixing SWs or should we slowly wheen off of neverwinter.. again
Why would u even play an MMO where things change all the time, when u only like playing when ur class is the very best of all?
Many classes have had down periods and have had several mods where they where unwanted in public groups, im a rogue main so i would know. Acting like a kid and giving up the moment ur classes is not on top all the time is just stupid. Learn to adapt, learn to live with the changes, since the devs not replying means they dont care or dont agree with ur view of things.
> @fyrstigor said: > can we get some insight from a dev @noworries or someone.. this banter is annoying and its probably useless.. do you devs plan on fixing SWs or should we slowly wheen off of neverwinter.. again > > Why would u even play an MMO where things change all the time, when u only like playing when ur class is the very best of all? > > Many classes have had down periods and have had several mods where they where unwanted in public groups, im a rogue main so i would know. Acting like a kid and giving up the moment ur classes is not on top all the time is just stupid. Learn to adapt, learn to live with the changes, since the devs not replying means they dont care or dont agree with ur view of things. _________________________
You should do your SJW somewhere else considering that rogues have always been the loudest QQers. And curiously they are in good place ...
There is nothing to adapt as there is no more niche (=sth special at what you are really good) for warlocks. Btw warlocks have not been on top for years now, so I don't know why you say that we regret not being on ultra top.
It is really the first time I have this frustration, especially after all these promises of balance made easier after the simplification of builds.
I did 2 lomm the other day with warlocks in my team, the first one had a 23k and a 24k warlock and by the end they did maybe 10% less damage then my cleric and within 1 mil of eachother.......the 2nd lomm I did was with a 22k warlock who had all the %dmg gear, he did about 10% more damage then my 25k cleric......should I cry that warlock is too high dps?
Unless your Arbiter is exceptionally strong (which it may be, I don't know), the Warlocks are underperforming, especially the 23k and 24k examples.
Comments
Exactly!
As I said the SW is not bad, but it will not be top dps if you get dps of the same level of power, equipment ... etc
I already spent a lot of CW with 25k, which are not using the best equipments, such as set orcus, rings of%, chest etc.
But if you get the same level you will lose.
Magnitude of the Sw is very low has no way.
My SW
If someone has a secret formula please post:
Number 1 hasnt figured out their character yet and is struggling alot and therefore saying the class is terrible and cant do anything. Which is obviously not true.
There are also comments of ppl who outdps some -fill in the blank- class in a random run, and therefore the class is completely fine.
Im not saying SW isnt viable, or that it needs to be buffed ALOT.
Altough i can understand that people are getting frustrated since the class has more or less taken a backseat since mod 10.5
A 10-20% dmg buff combined with some QOL changed would bring the class to a much better place.
U keep comparing urself to the wizards. who no class can beat atm because they are simply to strong on equal level and skill. Just because 1 class is broken doesnt mean they should break all other classes to satisfy someones ego cause they must be number 1 DPS always.
I am on PC, and ur welcome to come beat me. Im sure u could. But that would only prove the warlock doesnt need buffs.
The biggest problem with warlock isnt the dmg, its not the low magnitude encounters. The problem seems to be that the majority of players cant play it. Give the class huge buffs isnt gonna fix that, its just gonna create a class that no one have a chance to beat at equal level, just like the wizard is now. So ur not really wanting to solve the problems with the warlock, u just want the dmg buffed so ur class will always be number 1 in dps no matter what for ur own ego.
And everyone, specially these 0.01% of players u play with, knows that the dmg meter in game cant be trusted. Who ever runs the fastest will have the lead. Who have the most upfront dmg will get the lead. And since mod 16 adds in a run now have a pretty big % of overall HP in the dungeon compared to before. So this matters a lot for the ingame dmg counter. And the warlock does not have the big magnitudes to beat many other classes in the first 2-3 sec on combat oneshotting all groups before anyone can hit them. But the warlock have plenty dmg to compete in longer fights. And if u get the magnitudes buffed, so that u can oneshot groups, get the dmg before anyone else gets to the mob. Ur just creating a problem where groups who doesnt oneshot things, the warlock will reck everyone on dmg, because they have the upfront high dmg, but also the strong dmg over time.
Thats how warlocks works. So if u want all magnitudes buffed by that much, then all DoTs and passive dmg buffs should be reduced by just as much or more to make the class balanced. Personally i like balanced classes, and not just "buff MY class so I can beat ALL other classes" kind of solutions to stroke someones ego.
Do u use tene enchantments? Where is ur envenomed story tellers journal ? Both of those would be about 10-15% DPS increase overall in something like LoMM. Or u can use the leg griffon equip power + Wyvern artifact for 30% of encounters every 15 sec. I know some use that setup. There are many things that play into who or why someone will be top DPS on the chart. Not just the state of the class. What about doohickey? Do u use that one every 30 sec?
I do not have this artifact envenomed.
This artifact is very broken. In fact all that has to do with poison is with very high damage.
I use [Doohickey] yes every 30 sec, the damage is in average 150k to 250k dmg very high.
griffon equip power + Wyvern cd reduction really is very good, but I have not tested it since I do not have this mount.
I use the dc artifact to have quicker daily along with the [Vivified Primal Raid Viatus] boots, for "mobs [Accursed Souls]." "And for boss [Tyrannical Curse]"
The point is not that we want the unbeatable SW, we want competitive.
Other Dps with same items CW, DC, TR and HR, we lose.
Of course it depends on getting faster on the mobs, if we get along with sw we will lose.
Note: Class Feature I use - [Dust to Dust] [No Pity, No Mercy] Do you use the same or different?
Dust to Dust on AoE, All-Consuming curse on single target.
Once u hit those 140k+ power trash dies to fast in LoMM. Specially if all in the group are strong players. Only on bosses u can see any real status of how the class is performing. Cause when everything is dead in a matter of 3 sec all ur testing is who have the most upfront dmg. Run ACT, look only at bosses. And if ur running LoMM, second boss isnt in warlock favor since ur most likely to drop the Risky investment on boulder phases, and thats 25% lost dmg on encounters. Depending on how strong ur groups are, the other bosses might not even live long enough for u to get those 5 stacks.
But when ur not running with super groups u have those things. So buffing warlocks because super groups kills to fast, will mean mediocre warlocks will suddenly reck anyone else in dmg. Making the warlock unbalanced.
Again the warlock isnt broken. Things just might just not survive long enough for the class to get its full dmg potential.
Ur welcome to hit me up ingame at @fyrst_igor if u wanna run vs my rogue.
The way the warlock is designed makes hitting the top of the Paingiver pretty hard (given comparable DPS competitors). Our damage is not really front loaded, so before our stuff starts kicking in most things will already be dead. It also makes comparing DPS using that Paingiver chart a losing proposition most of the time.
Warlocks can do decent damage, especially in longer fights, but the way it is tuned at the moment means that (when compared to a lot of "equal" other classes) it seems to be 10 to 30 percent behind. It also seems nobody has set up any real testing on this though, Everyone keeps referring to dungeon runs with way too many random variables involved, as if those are able to prove anything
The warlock play-style is clunky (if I am being charitable I could call it "involved" or "a lot of work") and this makes it too easy to be bad at it. The ledge you have to walk is very narrow (very limited spectrum of viable powers/features) and if you move off the ledge, the Warlock's DPS will plummet rapidly. For most other classes things are significantly more forgiving. This leads to people getting frustrated with the class quite often, which influences the shared perspective on the class as "bad". Luckily there are a lot of Warlocks willing to help other people find that ledge, but the fact that we have to do so is still hurting us.
Soulweaver is not able to meet the healing demands that the end-game content puts on it and has a lot of, lets be forgiving again and say "weird", powers and effects. Part of this is likely unintended, but a significant part of this is simply its design. It needs work. Will there be examples of people defying the odds and Soulweaving their way through LOMM or TOMM? Sure there will, and those people and their friends/party members/pets/grandmothers will keep bringing it up. And I am sure Schietindebux will keep shooting them down (thx
I have been playing a Warlock as my main since it came into the game. We have had good times, we have had insanely overpowered times and we have had (significantly more) bad times. Right now is not a great time to me, in part because the abundance of issues has cause most of my warlock friends to find greener pastures. But also because the warlock feels like its lagging behind the curve. The "reward" for the amount of effort required is off to me and so, the class needs work. Careful tweaks for the DPS path, significant changes for the healing path.
-looks at the newly raked patch of "same old" ground and waits for the next bulldozer-
It just comes down to mistakes being made and there being opportunity to shore up the other DPS paths to greater or lesser degrees.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
That was the case before mod 16 but now, tbh i dont see that happening.
And @fyrstigor i did base my tests statments on ACT...
Are u so sure that a 10-20% dmg buff and maybe a bit of QOL would lead to the average SW destroying other equal geared classes in dmg?
Cause in my experience the Average Warlock i see in Random runs or in my Alliance underperforms alot more then warlocks at the top end.
I have also seen better geared warlocks, and players who main warlocks and have for years not do great on them. But thats not because the warlock is weak, or bad, or need buffs. Its because of player errors. They make wrong choices, or they play it badly.
If I sum it up you have:
GF set as tank, Paladin set as tank and healer
DC set as healer and also passes warlock as dps (yes indeed)
Hunter, TR, CW all of them have the needed intellect to play their class and get rewarded in terms of dps.
Barbie, hm, not first pick as a tank, even though i witnessed some pretty good ones allready, dps- in the same boat as warlocks "too dump to play".
Hellbringer- lacks in 20-30% intelligence, Soulweaver far below Devout or Oathkeeper... only some few guys think it works but I doubt they have any clue about other classes , playing in their own little universe all time not aware of all that bugs and underwhelming powers.
But when we look at the overall picture and try to filter out all the BS and try to combine it with the (ACT) numbers, from multiple sources and viewpoints, the picture that emerges is one where the Warlock is not in a great place. I for one do not think calling out numbers like 10-20% is all that helpful, lets just start with the simple conclusion that Warlocks need to be looked at and that serious issues exist. will be hard enough to agree on that part and possibly get acknowledgement or explanations from the powers that be.
But I am still to naive to give up hope..
Yule (Barb): 72k : Siren (TR): 78k : Torun (DC): 73k : Siren OP (OP): 76k : Siren SW (SW): 78k : Modern (F): 80k : Cherry1 (CW) : 68k Siren HR (HR): 78k
However, this is nothing new. Many players insisted even in M15 that DPS Warlock builds weren't viable despite proof to the contrary. We'd be seeing the same issue right now with Wizards except that even a bad Wizard can currently get something done as long as they happen to throw darts and hit mostly the right feats on the Powers sheet. Warlocks who don't understand their class mechanics and don't build and play to optimize for them are going to do VERY poor damage.
IMO what Warlock needs aside from some QoL and (modest) balance tweaks is a broader selection of viable build options and Powers. While this is true to an extent of every class, I feel that making one or two "bad" choices with Warlock is extremely punishing and is part of why there are such drastically varying opinions on the state of the class.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
See I am not saying that Sw bad, but as I said with the same IL and equipment will hardly win from a CW, TR, HR, GWF and DC, I do not speak of the GF because I do not see much GF Dps.
But the truth is that very easy to check in the Enclave in the LFG "need dps CW, TR and HR. If Sw was good as some say, I believe the LFG would be different is not it?
I play with Sw of the launch mod 6, we were tops dps, we were the worst in order.
Because of the embers in this, we have been promised imbalance between the dps classes and supports and this is not what it looks like.
You who say that Sw is very good and are the ppls that are not known to lead, please teach us how to play I am open to tips. I believe everyone here too.
Anyway, idc anymore. I'm finishing the campaigns on my fighter so warlock's gonna grow spiderwebs for some time
I did not refer towards those ones who only deal 30% of what should be possible, I talk about player that run every setup, got all stats correct, do correct rotations etc but allways get insulted to do something wrong in this thread since they miss 20 to 30% , even though they play the class since launch, know all ups and downs.
There is no base to discuss between a full-time warlock and sometime warlock, unaware wich powers to use. Beside that the powers to use are pretty obvious imo no rocket science. And there was not much wisdom spread about how to do things better... no hidden or unexpected pro tips, nada, a lot of empty words beside a pretty onside judgement from those, who know and play the class since ages.
@gonzakotwi
I agree about HB partly, about Soulweaver I really don't think it would change a lot, the path and some powers like Wraith Shadow are so underwhelming or bugged..
If I read comments about warlocks that do fine compared to all others classes on their alt-warlock and get sometimes passed on their main class by some warlocks (equally geared) I can only pull one conclusion out of this.
He underperforms on his main class and does a great job on his alt somehow... maybe.. or he simply can´judge objective about the current situation.
I run against many player and classes also warlocks, some did better some don´t, no matter how their equip is, I can scale it up pretty much and interpret the result like yesterday, that lock did better than me even dealing 60 mio vs my 80 mio, simple as that.
If my CW or TR on a same level drops of against a SW the situation is pretty obvious imo.
Anyway, I don´t want to put more efforts into threats that don´t lead to anything else than dissense and confusion. There are no improvements in sight since no single comment from devs side indicates anything like that, even not for Soulweaver that is a pretty wasted loadout (got two.. or three)
True in easy content like LotMM is possible covering difference with specific (NPNM, running ahead, saving TC at start of bosses, etc) but, as @tom#6998 stated, as you get into hard content class tend to significantly underperform, spite balancing is "in a quite good state". That's bad because not having meta on both roles is kinda bad.
TL;DR: I agree on 30% less than wizard/rogue, with relevant QoL improvements needed (plenty of proposals there): just check casting times and u know where to start.
True we're not alone, barbie and fighters are in an even worser state dps-wise, but at least their tank spec is good, while soulweaver..
Now warlocks magnitudes are low with no tools to catch up: don't tell me about the ability to reduce cooldown because everything is killed before we can use properly and some other classes have also the ability to reduce cooldowns (by feats or class features).
Even if some warlock feats give +10% more damage and +25% if you get lucky in a veryyyy long fight (with no interruption), the damage will still be low because the base was too low to start with:
For example hadar's grasp is 175 magnitude (which is one of the best warlock encounter and is mandatory if you want to achieve the +25%more damage): even with around 10% more damage from a feat and +25%more damage coming from the 5x5%of "risky investment" given by soul investiture, the final max damage will be an absolutely amazingggg ....236,25magnitude!
It is not fair to achieve such a low damage after struggling to stack self-buff for nearly one minute (in a perfect situation), and there is no other proc to save the day ....
In comparison (raw figures not taking into account the self-buffs, procs, extra crit severity or cd reductions of classes):
I would like:
-to have tab reworked: either increase dramatically soul scorch damage (because it does about the same damage as a cleric or a rogue most powerful at-will, with the same cast time) and/or do what some other posters suggested . Also the cooldown reduction given by the tab is indeed nice only if people choose to pick the corresponding feat, so please bear in mind that this effect is just a cherry on top and should not be taken as obvious when you rework the tab.
-magnitudes: why on Earth do we have the lowest magnitudes for encounters ???? Killing flame is the only one big-hitting one, others are just passable or are a necessary step to grant other effects (like curse consume or puppet spawn). The somewhat lower cooldown does not justify this, especially if you consider dps overtime (damage per minute). They need to be buffed urgently because I know that feats will not be reworked anytime soon.
-AOE: please increase the radius of fiery bolt because it is clearly too limited and tend not to hit targets behind.
-AOE: hellfire ring: please reduce the cast time. It is atrocious to wait and see the mobs going away before it lands. Should be instant like the good old pillar of power (considering that we have to target the location in addition). It is already a small zone, why adding difficulty with cast time? It just makes this encounter even more clunky.
-AOE: curse bite; the cooldown reduction does not work on this encounter
-utility: in the past, dps path had no utility but had dps to compensate. Now dps is meh and still no utility, no cc, no resistance, no debuff, no added value in group. Please let us have a role: strong dps or less strong dps with utility (I would prefer soulweaver role to get more utility though).
-mono: the preview patch notes dated 22Mar2019 said that "vampiric embrace now properly spawns a soul puppet": it was never implemented while it could be a nice addition to have another encounter enabling to stack risky investment quicker.
-Dailies: reduce accursed souls activation time and rework gates of hell and flames of phlegestos that have really no utility. Also why do we have the lowest magnitude for dailies among classes ?
Currently DPS warlock survives because of bugged at-wills and a few other things but he is actually in a BAD position. I prefer to say that he is bad, because saying he is not *that* bad (which is also true) will not improve the situation. Just look at what dps classes are most played in Lomm and you will have a hint on the perception of class "balance" (note that some dps classes completely disappeared from the radar, like dps fighter).
@nitocris83 I am not usually particularly whiney and I was hopeful about the "further tweaks will be done in mod 16" but when I read the message of Noworries saying that they think that balance is in good place, I lost faith (maths don't lie).
The previous posters gave some good ideas.
Many classes have had down periods and have had several mods where they where unwanted in public groups, im a rogue main so i would know. Acting like a kid and giving up the moment ur classes is not on top all the time is just stupid. Learn to adapt, learn to live with the changes, since the devs not replying means they dont care or dont agree with ur view of things.
> can we get some insight from a dev @noworries or someone.. this banter is annoying and its probably useless.. do you devs plan on fixing SWs or should we slowly wheen off of neverwinter.. again
>
> Why would u even play an MMO where things change all the time, when u only like playing when ur class is the very best of all?
>
> Many classes have had down periods and have had several mods where they where unwanted in public groups, im a rogue main so i would know. Acting like a kid and giving up the moment ur classes is not on top all the time is just stupid. Learn to adapt, learn to live with the changes, since the devs not replying means they dont care or dont agree with ur view of things.
_________________________
You should do your SJW somewhere else considering that rogues have always been the loudest QQers. And curiously they are in good place ...
There is nothing to adapt as there is no more niche (=sth special at what you are really good) for warlocks.
Btw warlocks have not been on top for years now, so I don't know why you say that we regret not being on ultra top.
It is really the first time I have this frustration, especially after all these promises of balance made easier after the simplification of builds.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH