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  • robertthebardrobertthebard Member Posts: 543 Arc User
    lantern22 said:


    This is an essay. If you're free to write essays bagging others who are complaining about Mod 16, why aren't they free to write "essays" about changes to a game they have paid for and played for years? Pot . . . . Kettle . . . . . .black.

    It is fair to say that the vast majority hate a lot of Mod 16, some are patiently waiting for them to fix things, hoping they will fix things. Some have just left. Personally, I think it is understandable that people are complaining and I don't think the Dev's are surprised, they will have known this would happen. They even admit Mod 16, as it stands, isn't great.

    Feel free, but let's be truthful about what we're saying? How about citations for "vast majority"? In PE I've seen the same 10 people going on for a while now, so unless the population is only 15, that hardly qualifies. How about we ditch the "but all the leveling zones are empty" coming from people that, based on how much time they spend in PE, probably haven't seen a leveling zone since the launch?

    In regard to obligations to a guild, I have a guild of 2 in the MMO I referenced in my quote, and my guild mate understands exactly why I walked away. If your guild is truly full of friends, they'll understand that you have to look out for you sometimes too. If they don't, maybe walking away is a good idea anyway.
    Reading comprehension is essential in a medium that requires reading for communication.
  • aratecharatech Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 269 Arc User

    lantern22 said:


    This is an essay. If you're free to write essays bagging others who are complaining about Mod 16, why aren't they free to write "essays" about changes to a game they have paid for and played for years? Pot . . . . Kettle . . . . . .black.

    It is fair to say that the vast majority hate a lot of Mod 16, some are patiently waiting for them to fix things, hoping they will fix things. Some have just left. Personally, I think it is understandable that people are complaining and I don't think the Dev's are surprised, they will have known this would happen. They even admit Mod 16, as it stands, isn't great.

    Feel free, but let's be truthful about what we're saying? How about citations for "vast majority"? In PE I've seen the same 10 people going on for a while now, so unless the population is only 15, that hardly qualifies. How about we ditch the "but all the leveling zones are empty" coming from people that, based on how much time they spend in PE, probably haven't seen a leveling zone since the launch?

    In regard to obligations to a guild, I have a guild of 2 in the MMO I referenced in my quote, and my guild mate understands exactly why I walked away. If your guild is truly full of friends, they'll understand that you have to look out for you sometimes too. If they don't, maybe walking away is a good idea anyway.
    Not my point. I enjoy the game because I am with them. They make it fun *despite* the best efforts of the Devs to render years of hard work and investments utterly worthless. In summary, its the same reason that having a multiplayer can make an awful game tolerable with friends. Because then we get to laugh about getting stuck in yet another bugged ME, or watching my companion run backwards and go attack a random mushroom, rather than grinding my teeth into a fine dust in frustration.

    I like hanging out with them. That what I mean by guild obligations and friends. We worked hard to build it together. A community that I have fond memories of (I have email, cloud, and USB saved screenshots of when we and 4 others from NOR conquered TONG for the first time). That is why I'm here. That is why I'm doing something other than simply logging in to grab my VIP key and then going to play Dark Souls or MWO or Risk of Rain.
  • robertthebardrobertthebard Member Posts: 543 Arc User
    aratech said:

    lantern22 said:


    This is an essay. If you're free to write essays bagging others who are complaining about Mod 16, why aren't they free to write "essays" about changes to a game they have paid for and played for years? Pot . . . . Kettle . . . . . .black.

    It is fair to say that the vast majority hate a lot of Mod 16, some are patiently waiting for them to fix things, hoping they will fix things. Some have just left. Personally, I think it is understandable that people are complaining and I don't think the Dev's are surprised, they will have known this would happen. They even admit Mod 16, as it stands, isn't great.

    Feel free, but let's be truthful about what we're saying? How about citations for "vast majority"? In PE I've seen the same 10 people going on for a while now, so unless the population is only 15, that hardly qualifies. How about we ditch the "but all the leveling zones are empty" coming from people that, based on how much time they spend in PE, probably haven't seen a leveling zone since the launch?

    In regard to obligations to a guild, I have a guild of 2 in the MMO I referenced in my quote, and my guild mate understands exactly why I walked away. If your guild is truly full of friends, they'll understand that you have to look out for you sometimes too. If they don't, maybe walking away is a good idea anyway.
    Not my point. I enjoy the game because I am with them. They make it fun *despite* the best efforts of the Devs to render years of hard work and investments utterly worthless. In summary, its the same reason that having a multiplayer can make an awful game tolerable with friends. Because then we get to laugh about getting stuck in yet another bugged ME, or watching my companion run backwards and go attack a random mushroom, rather than grinding my teeth into a fine dust in frustration.

    I like hanging out with them. That what I mean by guild obligations and friends. We worked hard to build it together. A community that I have fond memories of (I have email, cloud, and USB saved screenshots of when we and 4 others from NOR conquered TONG for the first time). That is why I'm here. That is why I'm doing something other than simply logging in to grab my VIP key and then going to play Dark Souls or MWO or Risk of Rain.
    I've played MMOs past my actual enjoyment of them for the same reasons. Most of the crowd I gamed with 10 years ago are friends on FB now, and have even "recruited" me to return to a game now and then. Eventually, however, if I'm seriously not having a good time, or, an even better example from my perspective, when I have a conflict with staff over something related to the game and move on, I remain friendly with the people I was guilded with. I have been in same guild in DDO, for this example, for almost 8 years now, despite the fact that I log in every once in a while to check in with 'em, and they know I likely won't play, or won't play much, despite the fact that I do actually enjoy the game. I'm not going to support SSG so long as they can justify keeping a CM that will permaban accounts because his feelings got hurt.
    Reading comprehension is essential in a medium that requires reading for communication.
  • robertthebardrobertthebard Member Posts: 543 Arc User

    Not fun??? Man I'm really loving this mod, it brought back the feeling of the first mods after the game launch. Now you really need to know what you are doing or else any dungeon/skirmish/heroic encounter fails...

    LOL. Really dude? You are one of the whiners: the game is too easy. If all you wanted was the rush, take off you enchants and armor. Just because you are super gamer dude doesn't mean everyone is. So the people with maxed out enchants and top o the line armor and weapons are the whiny babies the game is too easy. Well not everyone is maxed out as possible. Not everyone has the time to be super gamer dud, er dude. So peeps like you ruined the game for a lot of people because while being super gamer dude, you cannot use your brain to figure out how to make the game more of a challenge all by your lil ole lonesome. Ya had to be super cry baby. Way to ruin the game for a lot of people. This supposed to be Dungeons and Dragons. There is no scaling in D&D. More content is always a good thing, but this auto scaling is just wrong on so may levels.
    Do you even D&D? Of course there's scaling, otherwise there's no point in running a campaign, is there. Everyone rolls up, gets their max level, with max level gear and goes home. I guess it makes cleanup easier that way?
    Reading comprehension is essential in a medium that requires reading for communication.
  • aratecharatech Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 269 Arc User
    edited May 2019

    Not fun??? Man I'm really loving this mod, it brought back the feeling of the first mods after the game launch. Now you really need to know what you are doing or else any dungeon/skirmish/heroic encounter fails...

    LOL. Really dude? You are one of the whiners: the game is too easy. If all you wanted was the rush, take off you enchants and armor. Just because you are super gamer dude doesn't mean everyone is. So the people with maxed out enchants and top o the line armor and weapons are the whiny babies the game is too easy. Well not everyone is maxed out as possible. Not everyone has the time to be super gamer dud, er dude. So peeps like you ruined the game for a lot of people because while being super gamer dude, you cannot use your brain to figure out how to make the game more of a challenge all by your lil ole lonesome. Ya had to be super cry baby. Way to ruin the game for a lot of people. This supposed to be Dungeons and Dragons. There is no scaling in D&D. More content is always a good thing, but this auto scaling is just wrong on so may levels.
    Do you even D&D? Of course there's scaling, otherwise there's no point in running a campaign, is there. Everyone rolls up, gets their max level, with max level gear and goes home. I guess it makes cleanup easier that way?
    Speaking as a DM myself, yes, there is scaling. But not scaling like this. I don't scale my players down from level 15 to level 5 when they enter a town and tell them that all of their +4 gear is now +1 because...reasons.... Nor do I then expect them to then successfully fight level 10 enemies on equal footing because they dared to complete the side quests that I gave them and are now more powerful than they were before....
  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User
    edited May 2019

    I have 8 characters, the only issues I have bumped into, are broken areas like the Maze Engine where the quests have you at level 60 and the enemy at level 83. Scaling on places like Well of the Dragons makes it very tough to do dragon runs or Tiamat. This went Live on the 23rd and I play tested on Preview and knew there would be issues. It is my opinion, they released about a month too soon.They needed to hold off for a mid May release. I waited until Friday the 26th to start but mostly got my characters set up over that weekend. Now my characters are now between 78 to 80 and 40% done with the Undermountain. It also appears they are having some server side software issues too.

    All this will take time to fix. Eventually down the road, in the months ahead, some things will get buffed others will get nerfed. I had to relearn how to play all my characters and I am doing just fine now. You come here to the forums and vent about changes. Many players wanted a level cap increase, that is done now you are stuck with it. Others asked for balance, that too is being done, they need to tweak a lot more before it is finished. Yet more cried for more content, and there it is, and they have a dungeon on the way too.

    I never asked for any of this stuff. But it is here to stay, and this is it, so get use to it, or go find something else to do. If you desire changes, then you need to be more precise about what you want. You need to post your detail findings in the Debug and Feedback areas on this forum. If the game is not fun and challenging, then why are you even here?

    What the player base wanted vs. what mod 16 brought are a bit different but also the same. We didn't ask for the devs to completely remove buffing and debuffing from the game, but they basically did. We didn't ask the devs to make our character so simple that you don't really have choices, community wanted to make it easier for new players so we got mod 16 character changes to the point of even removal of stat rolls.

    There is a big difference between want the community wanted and what was delivered. The end result is that the game is not even close to anything it had previously. The combat went from fun and engaging to slow, tedious and boring. Combat now in the game feels like I'm working on a task that requires very slow precision on my end to ensure I do not by accident enter a wrong value into a system. Work can boring when you do slow precision entering of data. I don't want my video games to feel like that but NWO does.

    Like I stated more than once, NWO mod 16 is worst than the combat of ESO and I stopped playing ESO because the combat was slow and clunky. NWO combat is now worst than ESO. Fixing enemies and scaling won't change the combat. The devs need to fix combat to make it more engaging than it is now.


  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User
    edited May 2019

    lantern22 said:


    This is an essay. If you're free to write essays bagging others who are complaining about Mod 16, why aren't they free to write "essays" about changes to a game they have paid for and played for years? Pot . . . . Kettle . . . . . .black.

    It is fair to say that the vast majority hate a lot of Mod 16, some are patiently waiting for them to fix things, hoping they will fix things. Some have just left. Personally, I think it is understandable that people are complaining and I don't think the Dev's are surprised, they will have known this would happen. They even admit Mod 16, as it stands, isn't great.

    Feel free, but let's be truthful about what we're saying? How about citations for "vast majority"? In PE I've seen the same 10 people going on for a while now, so unless the population is only 15, that hardly qualifies. How about we ditch the "but all the leveling zones are empty" coming from people that, based on how much time they spend in PE, probably haven't seen a leveling zone since the launch?

    In regard to obligations to a guild, I have a guild of 2 in the MMO I referenced in my quote, and my guild mate understands exactly why I walked away. If your guild is truly full of friends, they'll understand that you have to look out for you sometimes too. If they don't, maybe walking away is a good idea anyway.
    5 instances is not all that much. Last time I checked, yesterday, on console each zone had around 8+ instances. If that number drops below 5 come mod 16 the update is a failure as players are quitting.

    End game zones have around 15+ instances; if those zone drop to say 10 or less again, players are quitting.

    Not sure where PC was prior to mod 16 landing but if the leveling zone had say 5 or more instances in say mod 15 but mod 16 has 2-3 of that instance the update is a failure as you lost enough players not to create 2 more zones; that would equate to around 40-60 players loss per a zone and going across zones that is a big loss of players in this game.

    Even losing one instance per a zone is pretty big player drop in the game. If the new zones don't have 35+ instances it is also a big loss of players. I know on console when new content comes out those zones have 75+ instances. When mod 16 lands on console if I see less than 50 instance I know that at minimum there was a good chunk of end game player that quit.
  • cassandaracassandara Member Posts: 16 Arc User

    Not fun??? Man I'm really loving this mod, it brought back the feeling of the first mods after the game launch. Now you really need to know what you are doing or else any dungeon/skirmish/heroic encounter fails...

    LOL. Really dude? You are one of the whiners: the game is too easy. If all you wanted was the rush, take off you enchants and armor. Just because you are super gamer dude doesn't mean everyone is. So the people with maxed out enchants and top o the line armor and weapons are the whiny babies the game is too easy. Well not everyone is maxed out as possible. Not everyone has the time to be super gamer dud, er dude. So peeps like you ruined the game for a lot of people because while being super gamer dude, you cannot use your brain to figure out how to make the game more of a challenge all by your lil ole lonesome. Ya had to be super cry baby. Way to ruin the game for a lot of people. This supposed to be Dungeons and Dragons. There is no scaling in D&D. More content is always a good thing, but this auto scaling is just wrong on so may levels.
    Do you even D&D? Of course there's scaling, otherwise there's no point in running a campaign, is there. Everyone rolls up, gets their max level, with max level gear and goes home. I guess it makes cleanup easier that way?
    You are kidding right? You are such an expert on D&D. The #1 om all things D&D. So Mr. D&D please explain to everyone where in the D&D rules that the game is supposed to scale. And as for your question does playing from 1979 count? I have played D&D many years. Table top, the old computer ones from like the tsr80 period. Even have played DDO, Dungeons and Dragons Online with multiple rebirths. Every single instance I have ever played D&D no matter the format the game does not scale to the enemies you fight. And as for the dungeons needing better rewards, um you are playing a low level dungeon so yea you get low level rewards. Making all dungeons give level 80 rewards is just insane as the lower level characters wont have anything to play.
    Scaling has no part of D&D and never did. You can always just make a new character to rerun the lower level content.
  • mentinmindmakermentinmindmaker Member Posts: 1,307 Arc User
    My impression is there is a fairly big increase in the number of people playing the game. The people online in my guild has doubled from before mod 16, and recruitment to guild also has increased.

    Mod 16 certainly brought bigger changes than we the players had expected, and not all of them were good. The bugs and issues around will be fixed, but the changes to the combat system with much simpler character customization and much slower combat is likely here to stay. NW used to have the best combat system around, and that certainly is not the case any more.

    Currently we are surfing on a 'new is good' wave I think, we'll see if the current numbers surge lasts beyond the first initial weeks when people get done with Undermountain campaign and basic gearing up and the pure grind starts.
  • cherryman1cherryman1 Member Posts: 341 Arc User

    My impression is there is a fairly big increase in the number of people playing the game. The people online in my guild has doubled from before mod 16, and recruitment to guild also has increased.

    Mod 16 certainly brought bigger changes than we the players had expected, and not all of them were good. The bugs and issues around will be fixed, but the changes to the combat system with much simpler character customization and much slower combat is likely here to stay. NW used to have the best combat system around, and that certainly is not the case any more.

    Currently we are surfing on a 'new is good' wave I think, we'll see if the current numbers surge lasts beyond the first initial weeks when people get done with Undermountain campaign and basic gearing up and the pure grind starts.

    Most players that stay for more than a month in game that are new are at a 1 out of 10 from my experience as being a guild leader. So, unless they keep the new players a coming your going to lose a lot of them.
    Guild Leader: Under the Influence
    Yule (Barb): 55k : Siren (TR): 60k : Torun (DC): 54k : Siren OP (OP): 59k : Siren SW (SW): 54k : Modern (F): 62k : Cherry1 (CW) : 48k Siren HR (HR): 54k
  • robertthebardrobertthebard Member Posts: 543 Arc User

    Not fun??? Man I'm really loving this mod, it brought back the feeling of the first mods after the game launch. Now you really need to know what you are doing or else any dungeon/skirmish/heroic encounter fails...

    LOL. Really dude? You are one of the whiners: the game is too easy. If all you wanted was the rush, take off you enchants and armor. Just because you are super gamer dude doesn't mean everyone is. So the people with maxed out enchants and top o the line armor and weapons are the whiny babies the game is too easy. Well not everyone is maxed out as possible. Not everyone has the time to be super gamer dud, er dude. So peeps like you ruined the game for a lot of people because while being super gamer dude, you cannot use your brain to figure out how to make the game more of a challenge all by your lil ole lonesome. Ya had to be super cry baby. Way to ruin the game for a lot of people. This supposed to be Dungeons and Dragons. There is no scaling in D&D. More content is always a good thing, but this auto scaling is just wrong on so may levels.
    Do you even D&D? Of course there's scaling, otherwise there's no point in running a campaign, is there. Everyone rolls up, gets their max level, with max level gear and goes home. I guess it makes cleanup easier that way?
    You are kidding right? You are such an expert on D&D. The #1 om all things D&D. So Mr. D&D please explain to everyone where in the D&D rules that the game is supposed to scale. And as for your question does playing from 1979 count? I have played D&D many years. Table top, the old computer ones from like the tsr80 period. Even have played DDO, Dungeons and Dragons Online with multiple rebirths. Every single instance I have ever played D&D no matter the format the game does not scale to the enemies you fight. And as for the dungeons needing better rewards, um you are playing a low level dungeon so yea you get low level rewards. Making all dungeons give level 80 rewards is just insane as the lower level characters wont have anything to play.
    Scaling has no part of D&D and never did. You can always just make a new character to rerun the lower level content.
    I played it when the Player's Handbook was a pamphlet. Does that make me an expert? Not sure, but it does mean that I've got a bit of experience with it. I can look up on my desk right now and see my dice, still here, after all these years. Were you even aware that originally, that's how D&D was played? Because reading your comments, it would seem that you aren't.
    Reading comprehension is essential in a medium that requires reading for communication.
  • lordseth1985lordseth1985 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 312 Arc User

    Not fun??? Man I'm really loving this mod, it brought back the feeling of the first mods after the game launch. Now you really need to know what you are doing or else any dungeon/skirmish/heroic encounter fails...

    LOL. Really dude? You are one of the whiners: the game is too easy. If all you wanted was the rush, take off you enchants and armor. Just because you are super gamer dude doesn't mean everyone is. So the people with maxed out enchants and top o the line armor and weapons are the whiny babies the game is too easy. Well not everyone is maxed out as possible. Not everyone has the time to be super gamer dud, er dude. So peeps like you ruined the game for a lot of people because while being super gamer dude, you cannot use your brain to figure out how to make the game more of a challenge all by your lil ole lonesome. Ya had to be super cry baby. Way to ruin the game for a lot of people. This supposed to be Dungeons and Dragons. There is no scaling in D&D. More content is always a good thing, but this auto scaling is just wrong on so may levels.
    Do you even D&D? Of course there's scaling, otherwise there's no point in running a campaign, is there. Everyone rolls up, gets their max level, with max level gear and goes home. I guess it makes cleanup easier that way?
    You are kidding right? You are such an expert on D&D. The #1 om all things D&D. So Mr. D&D please explain to everyone where in the D&D rules that the game is supposed to scale. And as for your question does playing from 1979 count? I have played D&D many years. Table top, the old computer ones from like the tsr80 period. Even have played DDO, Dungeons and Dragons Online with multiple rebirths. Every single instance I have ever played D&D no matter the format the game does not scale to the enemies you fight. And as for the dungeons needing better rewards, um you are playing a low level dungeon so yea you get low level rewards. Making all dungeons give level 80 rewards is just insane as the lower level characters wont have anything to play.
    Scaling has no part of D&D and never did. You can always just make a new character to rerun the lower level content.
    I'm also a D&D Dungeon Master [playing and dm'ing since mid-90's] and as the other player said, we have scalling in the pen and paper rpg. BUT the monsters are scaled up, not the players are scaled down... that's the difference here, but that's not the point. The point here is how the scalling is working, sometimes it's fine other times it's insane. I did a lot of content since mod 16 launch, including Tiamat and Demogorgon. All sucessfull cuz we knew what to do, we used our brains and won. It was hard? hell yeah it was. But it was fun too.

    Also, all my characters wasn't hi-end ones, all of them was around 15-18k ilvl... nor my enchants/bondings/insignias and whatever more are maxed up. I always hated the "speed runs" that so many players want to do when asking for pt on PE. It was ridiculous how fast the dungeons was finished, all the bosses killed so fast that wasn't fun for me. It was boring...
    Seth QuickHands - Rogue, natural born assassin.
  • flambridgeflambridge Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 191 Arc User
    Karzov are killing noobs in one hit????????? Seriously??????
    XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD

    Devs metamorphed Neverwinter Online in Dark Souls Online.
  • cassandaracassandara Member Posts: 16 Arc User

    Not fun??? Man I'm really loving this mod, it brought back the feeling of the first mods after the game launch. Now you really need to know what you are doing or else any dungeon/skirmish/heroic encounter fails...

    LOL. Really dude? You are one of the whiners: the game is too easy. If all you wanted was the rush, take off you enchants and armor. Just because you are super gamer dude doesn't mean everyone is. So the people with maxed out enchants and top o the line armor and weapons are the whiny babies the game is too easy. Well not everyone is maxed out as possible. Not everyone has the time to be super gamer dud, er dude. So peeps like you ruined the game for a lot of people because while being super gamer dude, you cannot use your brain to figure out how to make the game more of a challenge all by your lil ole lonesome. Ya had to be super cry baby. Way to ruin the game for a lot of people. This supposed to be Dungeons and Dragons. There is no scaling in D&D. More content is always a good thing, but this auto scaling is just wrong on so may levels.
    Do you even D&D? Of course there's scaling, otherwise there's no point in running a campaign, is there. Everyone rolls up, gets their max level, with max level gear and goes home. I guess it makes cleanup easier that way?
    You are kidding right? You are such an expert on D&D. The #1 om all things D&D. So Mr. D&D please explain to everyone where in the D&D rules that the game is supposed to scale. And as for your question does playing from 1979 count? I have played D&D many years. Table top, the old computer ones from like the tsr80 period. Even have played DDO, Dungeons and Dragons Online with multiple rebirths. Every single instance I have ever played D&D no matter the format the game does not scale to the enemies you fight. And as for the dungeons needing better rewards, um you are playing a low level dungeon so yea you get low level rewards. Making all dungeons give level 80 rewards is just insane as the lower level characters wont have anything to play.
    Scaling has no part of D&D and never did. You can always just make a new character to rerun the lower level content.
    I played it when the Player's Handbook was a pamphlet. Does that make me an expert? Not sure, but it does mean that I've got a bit of experience with it. I can look up on my desk right now and see my dice, still here, after all these years. Were you even aware that originally, that's how D&D was played? Because reading your comments, it would seem that you aren't.
    Oh yay someone who does not really know what they are talking about. Why yes Virginia there was a player handbook pamphlet. In the boxed version of the game yes there was. But the game started out as books. Rather large books actually. Don't forget the Dungeon Masters handbook. Oh then there was the monster manual. Then of course another monster manual 2, who know how many different books for all the different variations of the game. Heck the did some really nice boxed version dungeons. But still using the pamphlet "books" as the real book really does show you really does not quire get what D&D was about. They just were not in depth enough. And as for the dice I assume your talking about the 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 20, and even eventually, though not right away the 100 sided Dice. But yea if you ever get the chance to use the books, really honestly, try it out. I do not mean an insult in any way by saying that. It is so much more in-depth and fun. Course then you need the character sheets, the DM blind with all those tables on the DM side with just pictures towards the players. Yea but really hard to get a game like that going now days. I even have the 1st print books somewhere, at least I hope I still do. Hmm this conversation is really making me yearn for how it used to be. Thanks a lot. LOL. Guess i can always crack open some of the D&D novels. So sad all the first editions I had were ruined from water damage. Guess instead of giving them my mpney I could get a lot of the books I am missing. I had to go look real quick lol, only have a few: Dragon Lance
    The Cataclysm
    The Reign of Ishtar
    The Dragons of Krynn
    The War of the Lance
    The Dargonesti
    Preludes Vol One Darkness and light
    Preludes Vol Two Kendermore
    Preludes Vol Three Brothers Majere
    Preludes II Vol One Riverwind the Plainsman
    Preludes II Vol Two Flint the King
    Preludes II Vol Three Tanis the Shadow Years
    Cronicles Vol 3 Dragons of Spring Dawning
    Used to have the original print Cronicles boxed set, but that water damage. That was my favorite set.
    H*E*R*O*E*S Vol Two Stormblade
    Tales Vol Two Kender, Gully Dwarves, and Gnomes

    Forgotten Realms:
    Spellfire (Another one of my favorites)
    Pool of radiance
    Pool of Twilight
    Pool of Darkness
    Crown of Fire
    Sojourn
    Exile

    I know I have more somewhere. Used to have all the Ravenloft and many many others.
    But yea you probably know so much more than I do. Yea I think a better idea for the like of me is to just ebay a buch of books I no longer have instead sinking it into this poor knockoff of an actual D&D game. Thanks I really needed this. The game is all yours. I am outa here.


  • robertthebardrobertthebard Member Posts: 543 Arc User



    Oh yay someone who does not really know what they are talking about. Why yes Virginia there was a player handbook pamphlet. In the boxed version of the game yes there was. But the game started out as books. Rather large books actually.

    I stopped reading right here. The books that tell stories from the D&D universe came well after the table top game. The Dungeon Master's guide hadn't been written yet, nor the Monster Manuals, or the Player Handbook. All were, essentially, pamphlets, because it was a shiny new experience way back then. The actual source material for these computer games, and all of the novel sets, predates a lot of the people posting in these forums.
    Reading comprehension is essential in a medium that requires reading for communication.
  • aratecharatech Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 269 Arc User
    Why are we having a hamster measuring contest about whose D&D experience as a whole is older than the other? The ultimate point is, that while there's scaling in D&D, its a case of Monsters being *scaled up*, not players scaled down. At no point in time did Gygax and Co. or anyone at TSR make it a mainstream rule to actively punish the players for getting more powerful *because they actually played the game*. And indeed, if they had ever made it mainstream to implement such a pants on head silly rule, we would probably not be here discussing the matter, because NWO wouldn't exist, as the entire D&D experience would have, likely as not, never gotten off the bloody gronud...
  • tyraeldragontyraeldragon Member Posts: 89 Arc User
    gwilfohr said:

    Like many I am making complaints on behalf of guild members. Since mod 16 release mobs and bosses are harder to kill especially low level area starting at Black Lake especially if Karzov is killing players in one or two shots and the list goes on from there. Why just fix high player dungeons when the while Sword Coast is messed up as well it is making new players to quit especially if they cannot kill the mobs and bosses on there own. So please just don't fix high player dungeons but fix all the areas where people can solo by themselves. This is making the game not fun for new players.

    Mod 15 had the perfect balance. I could go back to older repeats and whip through them if I wanted or keep going in the campaign list with higher levels for a challenge. Now we get level nerffed in older areas and they are no fun anymore especially if they are repeats.
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  • robertthebardrobertthebard Member Posts: 543 Arc User
    aratech said:

    Why are we having a hamster measuring contest about whose D&D experience as a whole is older than the other? The ultimate point is, that while there's scaling in D&D, its a case of Monsters being *scaled up*, not players scaled down. At no point in time did Gygax and Co. or anyone at TSR make it a mainstream rule to actively punish the players for getting more powerful *because they actually played the game*. And indeed, if they had ever made it mainstream to implement such a pants on head silly rule, we would probably not be here discussing the matter, because NWO wouldn't exist, as the entire D&D experience would have, likely as not, never gotten off the bloody gronud...

    At no point in their time did they envision players being demigods either, but if we compare toons from NW currently, pick a zone, to players in PnP, they are exactly that. So, concessions are made for cRPGs, and frankly, even outside of a D&D setting, these concessions are made. They were made here prior to M16 as well, but due to all the crutches thrown in at whatever points of the game's history, nobody really noticed. Those crutches are what ultimately broke the game, making everyone solo stars running around in a loose group, or just going in alone. Take that away, and suddenly it's "punishment". It should have never been a regular thing to begin with.
    Reading comprehension is essential in a medium that requires reading for communication.
  • aratecharatech Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 269 Arc User
    edited May 2019

    aratech said:

    Why are we having a hamster measuring contest about whose D&D experience as a whole is older than the other? The ultimate point is, that while there's scaling in D&D, its a case of Monsters being *scaled up*, not players scaled down. At no point in time did Gygax and Co. or anyone at TSR make it a mainstream rule to actively punish the players for getting more powerful *because they actually played the game*. And indeed, if they had ever made it mainstream to implement such a pants on head silly rule, we would probably not be here discussing the matter, because NWO wouldn't exist, as the entire D&D experience would have, likely as not, never gotten off the bloody gronud...

    At no point in their time did they envision players being demigods either, but if we compare toons from NW currently, pick a zone, to players in PnP, they are exactly that. So, concessions are made for cRPGs, and frankly, even outside of a D&D setting, these concessions are made. They were made here prior to M16 as well, but due to all the crutches thrown in at whatever points of the game's history, nobody really noticed. Those crutches are what ultimately broke the game, making everyone solo stars running around in a loose group, or just going in alone. Take that away, and suddenly it's "punishment". It should have never been a regular thing to begin with.
    There's a joke about the 4e Demigod Epic Destiny in this somewhere...

    That being said, Neverwinter has always held itself out as a solo friendly game (for example the mini dungeons in Dread Ring were always soloable and always intended to be such). Dungeons were group content, yes, but after a point, yes, *some* of them going to become soloable, when they're 12 modules old (say for example, dread ring, because again, that stuff is 12 modules old and 3 "upgrade" generations behind the current stuff). As I said in another thread, I *want* to face-roll that particular content for two major reasons. The first is not because I hate challenges, but because I've done this skirmish/dungeon from Dreadring two or three *thousand* times by now (Boo-tapdancing-on-a-cracker, I remember a time when I used to run it three times a day back in module 2 when that was how you got your daily AD). It holds no challenge for me. No surprises. I know how this one goes. I've beaten Zulkir What's-His-Face into the dirt so many times by now it has become a routine. I want to get in, get the 3 or so thousand AD the random que offers me for the 10 minutes of my time this demands, and bugger on out to my next objective because I have other things to do.

    The second is because this gives me an incentive and a sense of empowerment. A sense of accomplishment. "Hey, all that time and effort and money/money equivalent you've invested into your toon? Guess what, the stuff you used to struggle with you can now smash through! You've moving up in the world! You're getting better, you're getting stronger! You're helping these guys that would otherwise struggle with this content so that they can keep moving forward! You feel like the sort of person Lord Neverember and Sergeant Knox would keep calling on to save the city!".

    That's not to say that I never struggled. TONG was a problem for a guy like me, because the monsters were stronger. Castle Ravenloft I never successfully completed (mostly due to the fact that it was a bugged up mess and I was tired of fights where the Sisters would suddenly turn invincible, vital mobs wouldn't spawn, etc. etc.) and MSP was still always one that kept you on your toes because there were mechanics that would obliterate you no matter how powerful you were if you couldn't pay attention (gasp, shock, horror, a way of ensuring that it couldn't simply be face-rolled that didn't involve *crippling the players progression*. It's almost like actual thought was put into the boss mechanics...) There were parts that were a challenge and I enjoyed trying to overcome them. The Barovia hunts were a wonderful example of this. I could add difficulty modifiers to give myself and those with me a better chance at a higher end loot drop. We could be rewarded for our skill and braver in a way that didn't involve, say, slashing my stats by 40k across the board and reducing my Armor Penetration from 67k to 26k and making it impossible for me to hurt Zulkir What's his face like what happened last night, where the scaling is now *even worse* than it was before the patch.

    They've made leveling up a punishment. Bearing in mind that my stats are at best, right now, about 5-10% higher than they were when I was level 70, mostly because the morons in charge of this won't put the level 80 weapons where they said they would and they implemented the new stat system in such an absolutely god-awful way that a lot of Barovia gear for CWs, such as Terrored Grips and Hag's Rags, are still more-or-less BIS. And yet my stats become 40-50%, or in the case of my armor penetration (which again, has gone from being about 55K to 67K between level 70 to level 80) being slashed by 2/3rds, and my weapon damage is *halved* despite the fact *I'm still using a level 70 weapon!* and making it to where I have to stand there wailing on the trash mobs for minutes on end while my Action Points get slurped away into the void. My character is demonstrably weaker than he used to be in those zones, because of this incredibly inane system they've implemented. The enchantments I've spent 6 years carefully building up are worthless. The sense of progression I've had is gone, gutted, and its unbelievably stupid, because this is a blatantly pay to win game. And as such, by doing this, they've destroyed the financial incentive players have to purchase wards, etc. etc. Even from a bean-counting financial level, this module makes no sense.

    And then for them to make the scaling worse after promising to fix it? After Foss *openly admitted* to releasing a broken, sub-par piece of hamster fluff that was clearly not ready yet? Making dungeons 2-3 times as long without bothering to tweak the rewards (thus making it a complete waste of time since I could spend an hour trying to get through MSP only to get 3k AD and 1000 RP that's more or less worthless now, because my enchantments are gonna get scaled back down well below the rank 12-14 that was the max when all this level 70 content was first introduced (i.e. 99.99999999999999999999999999% of the game), thus making me, again, demonstrably weaker and making it pointless for me to even want to progress my character), multiple boons still being broken and flat out not working? It's like Cryptic hired the guys that Bioware's letting go from driving Anthem into the ground...

    But oh well...at least watching the dumpster fire is mildly entertaining. Not as entertaining as say, running TONG or Winter assault or helping my guild...but at least it's something...



  • aratecharatech Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 269 Arc User
    edited May 2019

    > @sandukutupu said:

    > @lantern22 module 6 was horrible by comparison. They didn't attempt to fix dungeons or keep dungeons on the module. Scott Shicoff shutdown any content that contained "issues" and that was most of the dungeons. I remember also how bad playing Drowned Shore was back then, do you remember it? That was the only area with enough XP to level you up from 60 to 70. And the area was so broken, my companion wouldn't even stay for the fights.

    >

    > Don't get me wrong, I am not thrilled about module 16. I am not happy they ditched the Foundry (unrelated? probably), I am not tickled to revamp and relearn new skills, or the generic player characters. But they will need time to repair this new module. At present, I am still of the opinion it can be done with the month of May. If not, then they must have it done or face the "Wrath of the Jubilee" in June where many players will return looking for gifts and new shiny stuff to do.

    >

    > Module 6 made the game dull and lifeless. I took several month off over the Summer. Module 16 can still become a dumpster fire, if they decided to just permanently remove the effected content. Instead they are working on it and attempting to make it better. If they fumble and by June it turns into a dumpster fire, I will be here to watch it. It is just the arsonist in me, I run two blocks down the street to watch my neighbor's house burn, that is probably not a good thing.



    I agree with you in this one, mod 6 was supposed to make the game better, but it was just the beginnin, when they done m6 instead of improving the game they took a differeny route, they started to cater on the roleplaying community, and by that i mean when wizard of the coast were releasing a tabletop module, the cryptic team tried to make their module all about that module, so since module 6 till module 16, they kept doing the same format all over again, releasing a module that makes the previous one obsolete, and tohheter with that all of the developer work with it. One example of that is when they released a weapon set with a broken bonus, devs soents that entire module to fix the bonus, and next module they released a new set of weapons with broken bonuses. Point being is the format itself ruininh the game. While alot of players were brainwashed to love this sort of thing i was always against it. ITS NOT GEAR PROGRESSION, game in m16 is doing things that go against the format that alot of players got used to it from m6 till m16, that is why alot of ppl cant adapt or understand the m16 changes, sure m16 is filled with bugs, but its still a work in progress and by m17 it will feel better. Now the main problem is still there and that is the gamr has so much content that ia obsolete, we want difficult content with proper rewards.

    Or I can hold the Devs and Cryptic's feet to the fire and continually lambast them for knowingly releasing little more than a broken bill of goods...

    "Oh, it'll get better! Give them time! They've got a road map!"

    Let's ask Bioware how that's working out for them, shall we?
  • robertthebardrobertthebard Member Posts: 543 Arc User
    @aratech By the time 4e released, Gygax and company were long gone from Dungeons and Dragons. They were all gone before WotC got ownership of what was left of TSR. So no hidden 4e jokes, they wouldn't apply to the statements I made.

    Regarding the rest of the discussion, I guess it's a YMMV thing? Maybe it's because I never got used to having the crutches, and so I don't miss them thing? You see, I quit well before M6, because the game was over the top easy. I didn't look back for over 5 years, closer to 6, considering I left in 2013. I didn't come here and try to drum up support for making the game harder, I understood it was aimed at a far more casual crowd, hence your P2W argument, and so, I simply moved on. "Being on your toes" was, and largely still is a case of normal content in other MMOs. I've seen the "don't try to make this Dark Souls" argument, and I find that insulting to Dark Souls, because there's no way this game is even close to that. I play SP games that are harder than this, but no where near Dark Souls level difficulty, and yet, they too have their "we need an easy mode" supporters.

    When I realized that this game wasn't made with someone like me in mind, I left. There was no issue with a learning curve, or content that was so hard it drove me out. I could literally doze off during dungeon runs, and not adversely affect completion. The biggest issue I've had since my return is HE rewards not being collectible, something I've filed a ticket on, and posted in the bug section. Other than that, I'm not feeling "robbed of my progression" and have, in fact, seen arguments posted in PE regarding how progression is needed to complete Tiamat, which simply shoots a hole in the boat of that narrative. If x gear level is still required to get a completion, then progression is still needed. There's another post on these very forums discussing the completion of another "impossible" dungeon. So when I see all of this conflicting information, some of which is supported with actual screenshots, my cynicism kicks in big time about some of the claims being made.

    When that's coupled with "I don't want to take the time required to complete content I should be able to solo/run faster/not getting paid enough" or, and this one was really rich: You broke the game, give us free CS stuff, I feel a bit justified in not trusting what the community has to say. This has nothing to do with faith in developer's visions, I'm here now because of "developer's visions" in a game where it's more than obvious that they never actually played it. My favorite example of that is a stealth based class being considered as always being a tank, despite not getting anything resembling a taunt until it reached Master Class, at 150. The entirety of it's skill set was based on ditching aggro, but according to them, it was always a tank? So when I log in and play on PC, I'm not seeing "they don't understand the game", I see "but they took away our ezmode, and so it's broken beyond recognition.

    In all fairness, for some people it probably is. They never had to learn anything about how their class actually functions, and now, are inadequate to deal with stuff that isn't bugged, let alone the fact that there is indeed a lot of bugged stuff that needs to be, and in so far as I'm aware, is being dealt with. However, this too is the fault of the devs. Instead of ramping up some difficulty, they caved to the lowest common denominator, and dumbed the game down even further from what it was before, which, in my opinion, was already too far, and so, when they tried to do a course correction, it may well be too late. So we can agree that the devs did indeed sabotage their game, we just may not agree on when, and how.
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  • aratecharatech Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 269 Arc User

    @aratech By the time 4e released, Gygax and company were long gone from Dungeons and Dragons. They were all gone before WotC got ownership of what was left of TSR. So no hidden 4e jokes, they wouldn't apply to the statements I made.

    I know. That's why I left it at there being a joke in there somewhere.


    Regarding the rest of the discussion, I guess it's a YMMV thing? Maybe it's because I never got used to having the crutches, and so I don't miss them thing? You see, I quit well before M6, because the game was over the top easy. I didn't look back for over 5 years, closer to 6, considering I left in 2013. I didn't come here and try to drum up support for making the game harder, I understood it was aimed at a far more casual crowd, hence your P2W argument, and so, I simply moved on. "Being on your toes" was, and largely still is a case of normal content in other MMOs. I've seen the "don't try to make this Dark Souls" argument, and I find that insulting to Dark Souls, because there's no way this game is even close to that. I play SP games that are harder than this, but no where near Dark Souls level difficulty, and yet, they too have their "we need an easy mode" supporters.

    I can understand your position. For me, it's not a crutch. I saved, scrimped, and clawed my way up over six years. I never paid for anything other than the coal wards and to unlock the dragonborn, since they're my favorite race (and heck, most of the coal wards I've gotten I instead got off the exchange, stockpiling Zen for months at a time and putting my advancement on hold). I was no where near the top 1% of the game. I had only managed to get into an IL of around 16.5k. But I was extremely good at the game due to learning its rules, playing by them, and being willing to engage in the grind. Now the Devs have just, on a whim, made all of that meaningless and gone out of their way to punish me for playing the game by the games own rules.

    And I would agree that this should not be compared to Dark Souls. I own all three of them, and enjoy them immensely. Dark Souls derives its difficulty and gameplay loop through a set of rules that rewards tactical positioning, stamina management, and careful observation of enemy 'tells'. Not from simply slapping more armor and HP and power on the same enemy while at the same time artificially stripping you of your progress.


    When I realized that this game wasn't made with someone like me in mind, I left. There was no issue with a learning curve, or content that was so hard it drove me out. I could literally doze off during dungeon runs, and not adversely affect completion. The biggest issue I've had since my return is HE rewards not being collectible, something I've filed a ticket on, and posted in the bug section. Other than that, I'm not feeling "robbed of my progression" and have, in fact, seen arguments posted in PE regarding how progression is needed to complete Tiamat, which simply shoots a hole in the boat of that narrative. If x gear level is still required to get a completion, then progression is still needed. There's another post on these very forums discussing the completion of another "impossible" dungeon. So when I see all of this conflicting information, some of which is supported with actual screenshots, my cynicism kicks in big time about some of the claims being made.

    It may be because you weren't here. I got choke-slammed by Mod 6, more or less, and was left with the feeling of "I've taken down Valindra, Malabog, dracolichs, and kicked Tiamat between her hind legs and lived to boast about it...and now I'm being killed by ordinary crabs...this is wrong." But I slowly managed to get back to it. I found NOR, grinded for my gear, got carried by them through some dungeons to help me get the newer stuff (Mod 6 was notorious for "everything one shots you unless you get the new Elemental Gear. Which you can only get through the dungeons. Which you cannot get through unless you already have high end gear.") I built up to level 12 enchantments over the course of years. I then did it again when Chult came out and the enchantment rank was raised to level 14.

    And now all of that has been taken from me. Those years of work, because if I *dare* to step back in the areas that I long ago beat, but in which 99.99% of the game still occupies, I'm watching half of my stats disappear. My enchantments are not scaled back to 14 or 12 (which, fun fact, all of them still are rank 14-12, so I'm punished for upgrades I don't even have yet), but to rank 9 (except my bondings, which seem to go back to a rank 6). My weapon damage is *halved* even though I'm still using the exact same weapon I had in module 14. Why? Because I'm level 80. But I'm still using a lot of level 70 gear. Including the weapons. Because the one type of level 80 weapons that I might be able to get my hands on (Mountaineering, which is also a far better setup for a CW than Alabaster), isn't in the game, despite them claiming it is.

    Why? Because they *knowingly* released a botched, incomplete, unfinished product. And they expect me to be cool with it? By Minsc's half-liquified brain, no, I'm not cool with it.


    When that's coupled with "I don't want to take the time required to complete content I should be able to solo/run faster/not getting paid enough" or, and this one was really rich: You broke the game, give us free CS stuff,

    They can keep their free stuff. I've got other "free stuff" they've sent me over the years to try to mollify me after they make decisions I don't like. It's still in my inbox. I refuse to touch it out of principal. I don't want their digital HAMSTER. I want them to release a *finished* product. I want them to give me some actual level 80 content. Give us new dungeons with level 80 stuff. Not a single dungeon and broken runic HEs. If you're going to spend more than a year working on this, then by god, I expect more from you than what someone working on the foundry back in the day could have done with his spare time. I expect *professional* grade quests. I expect content that works.

    Maybe it's because I work in the legal field. Which has an extraordinarily low tolerance for screw ups. But if I filed a case or put together a trust that was this badly implemented? This unfinished? I'd be looking for a new job. In a heartbeat.

    I feel a bit justified in not trusting what the community has to say. This has nothing to do with faith in developer's visions, I'm here now because of "developer's visions" in a game where it's more than obvious that they never actually played it.

    You have my sympathies for what it is worth.

    My favorite example of that is a stealth based class being considered as always being a tank, despite not getting anything resembling a taunt until it reached Master Class, at 150. The entirety of it's skill set was based on ditching aggro, but according to them, it was always a tank? So when I log in and play on PC, I'm not seeing "they don't understand the game", I see "but they took away our ezmode, and so it's broken beyond recognition.

    And here is where I agree but also disagree in part. I don't object to there being difficult new content. I loved TONG because I found it difficult. But TONG was new. I had only run it a few times. I don't want to have to spend 3 times as long on Valindra, Malabog, etc. etc. because I've played them hundreds, thousands of times over the past few years. I want to get in, grab my AD, and get out so I can move on to the parts of the game that I actually enjoy.

    In sum: if they're gonna make the dungeons difficult again, and erase any sense of progress or empowerment I ever felt through years of improving my character, cut my character in half and lobotomize my class...and keep the exact same paltry rewards they always had, only its worse since AD is now inherently less valuable? Or think they can buy me off with 4 days of double AD ...they have another thing coming.


    In all fairness, for some people it probably is. They never had to learn anything about how their class actually functions, and now, are inadequate to deal with stuff that isn't bugged, let alone the fact that there is indeed a lot of bugged stuff that needs to be, and in so far as I'm aware, is being dealt with. However, this too is the fault of the devs. Instead of ramping up some difficulty, they caved to the lowest common denominator, and dumbed the game down even further from what it was before, which, in my opinion, was already too far, and so, when they tried to do a course correction, it may well be too late. So we can agree that the devs did indeed sabotage their game, we just may not agree on when, and how.

    We agree on that much at least. I don't like what they have done. But if it had been done *properly* I likely would have tolerated it. I could deal with the scaling if it had been done properly (there was scaling in Mod 15 and before, from every time I was in a RLQ with an alt or the like). I never took too much of an issue with it because it never felt like it was crippling my wizard compared to his 'normal' situation. It never felt like a punishment for daring to reach the level cap. Here, as I stated, I'm basically punished for playing the game. And that is alot what ticks me off. They sold us a broken mess with the promise they would fix it later. And I am *beyond* tired of Devs pulling that HAMSTER.

  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User

    @lantern22 module 6 was horrible by comparison. They didn't attempt to fix dungeons or keep dungeons on the module. Scott Shicoff shutdown any content that contained "issues" and that was most of the dungeons. I remember also how bad playing Drowned Shore was back then, do you remember it? That was the only area with enough XP to level you up from 60 to 70. And the area was so broken, my companion wouldn't even stay for the fights.

    Don't get me wrong, I am not thrilled about module 16. I am not happy they ditched the Foundry (unrelated? probably), I am not tickled to revamp and relearn new skills, or the generic player characters. But they will need time to repair this new module. At present, I am still of the opinion it can be done with the month of May. If not, then they must have it done or face the "Wrath of the Jubilee" in June where many players will return looking for gifts and new shiny stuff to do.

    Module 6 made the game dull and lifeless. I took several month off over the Summer. Module 16 can still become a dumpster fire, if they decided to just permanently remove the effected content. Instead they are working on it and attempting to make it better. If they fumble and by June it turns into a dumpster fire, I will be here to watch it. It is just the arsonist in me, I run two blocks down the street to watch my neighbor's house burn, that is probably not a good thing.

    Cough cough....no dungeons are being shut down with mod 16 at all.

    Wait, didn't mod 16 primary dungeon not get launch with the rest of the mod because it was bugged. Isn't demo and tiamat now removed because they cannot be completed.

    Mod 16 is in the same boat as mod 6.

    The issues I see that mod 16 still has are player progression does not matter do to how things are scaled, player choices other than healer/tank role seem to matter little in build or damage. Someone with no knowledge can come in, create a character and them just as effective as a player who spend hundreds of hours playing the game, healers and tanks still don't matter, and combat is now slow and boring.

    These issues still exit and will continue even with bug fixes and fixes to scaling. These are not reason why players play a RGPMMO. RPGMMOs are played to see player progression, engaging combat tactical, action or both, and choices should matter either role or how we build our characters.

    As for shiny new stuff to do; it will be a while before the development team can tackle another mod do to all the issues with mod 16. Any dev taken off fixes will ensure content will just take longer to get fixed. You know those dungeons that have not being shut down.



  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User
    vheeshane said:

    I think they have brushed their hands off and left the department with a " well we're done here " and proceeded to continue working on MTG game

    The update was so that NWO would be a skeleton crew so that any extra hands could work on Magic the Gathering. The logical thing was not to modify NWO as much as they did given that most of the NWO was moved to MtG already. Now with a small crew they have manage through mod 16 and all of the items that are working as intended but causing player undo issues.
  • silverkeltsilverkelt Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,235 Arc User
    Well to be a bit fair.. mod 6 didnt even have a dungeon.. and the removed most of them.

    Mod 6 wouldve been pretty good, if they didnt release it with rank 4 powers all broken, the arp bug, new powers actually worthwhile (few classes had actually new powers that did anything of use) and a elemental evil temple trail.

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