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Mod 16 scale down system is broken and need fixing

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  • klangeddinklangeddin Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 882 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    Those level 70 dungeons give level 70 seals on their chests (although you get the level 80 seals from RQ bonus, they're still a pittance), there's no point in scaling down anything, the rewards are a joke.
    And even without the scaling down, they would end up being harder than the mod 15 version anyway if we factor in the massive nerfs to party buffs all across the board.

    Scaling has to go, period.
  • matthattrmatthattr Member Posts: 84 Arc User
    I agree about scaling etc. Just to let you know however, the seals on the chests and reward at end of RQ, old seals are trade 1/1 (unlike last mod being 3/1) at the seal trader in coster market. It's in the 3rd tab at bottom like before.
  • klangeddinklangeddin Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 882 Arc User
    They trade "older" level 70 for "less old" level 70, its seal of the brave to seal of the crown, I didn't see any seal of the crown to seal of the mountain exchange in the tab.
  • abn173d2003#3683 abn173d2003 Member Posts: 28 Arc User
    well it's like this, I ran my HR through part of the maze engine. got to a point were I was scaled down to level 60. The first mob was scaled down to my level, the second on the other hand.... lvl 81. can someone please explain that one to me? how is a level 60 suppose to defeat a mob of lvl 81? oh wait, nevermind. I deleted him and will wait for it to hit console. if I see the same problem with my end game character that i had there, we will have a big problem
  • mentinmindmakermentinmindmaker Member Posts: 1,261 Arc User

    well it's like this, I ran my HR through part of the maze engine. got to a point were I was scaled down to level 60. The first mob was scaled down to my level, the second on the other hand.... lvl 81. can someone please explain that one to me? how is a level 60 suppose to defeat a mob of lvl 81? oh wait, nevermind. I deleted him and will wait for it to hit console. if I see the same problem with my end game character that i had there, we will have a big problem

    Why overreact so much to something that obviously is a bug? Post the bug on the boards and wait a few weeks, and it will likely be fixed.
  • tharealcuber#2975 tharealcuber Member Posts: 28 Arc User

    well it's like this, I ran my HR through part of the maze engine. got to a point were I was scaled down to level 60. The first mob was scaled down to my level, the second on the other hand.... lvl 81. can someone please explain that one to me? how is a level 60 suppose to defeat a mob of lvl 81? oh wait, nevermind. I deleted him and will wait for it to hit console. if I see the same problem with my end game character that i had there, we will have a big problem

    Why overreact so much to something that obviously is a bug? Post the bug on the boards and wait a few weeks, and it will likely be fixed.
    It has been stated during preview that things like this happened, so they should have fixed this issues already before release ;)
  • arcanjo86arcanjo86 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,061 Arc User
    the scale is system is broken because You are measuring it by item level instead of char stat ratings(please exclude ability scores values/utility stats values and again we no longer have power share in game it way easier and increase the incentive to a progression on each players char), C.O.D.G. on random queue the elevator battle is overwhelmed on enemies, killing tanks too fast they all are getting one shoted even if they already have progressed the counter stats ratings for those dungeon, @mimicking#6533 @asterdahl @nitocris83 this is killing the fun in public queued content and even private queue, how long till you address it?
  • arcanjo86arcanjo86 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,061 Arc User
    edited April 2019

    They trade "older" level 70 for "less old" level 70, its seal of the brave to seal of the crown, I didn't see any seal of the crown to seal of the mountain exchange in the tab.

    seal of the mountain is earned on random queue when level 80 or the master expedition.
  • logidoggy#2226 logidoggy Member Posts: 13 Arc User
    This is so sad. I've gone from being able to completely annihilate things in a Manycoins Bank encounter to now wiping the entire party repeatedly and failing it. Intermediate Queue is a joke and too hard to do in order to be worth it. I was nearly 19K end-game IL prior to Mod 16, now I'm over 23K IL and can't even hold my ground in Intermediate queues.

    Devs, you need to completely revert scaling until such a time as you fix it to be fair toward end-game players. This feels like you're trying to push us out of the game entirely. The problem is, NOBODY can do these queues adequately anymore. Your scaling is broken, you didn't do enough testing, and you need to own up to it.
  • croixxcroixx Member Posts: 24 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    The thing about it is scaling was broken when mod 16 was first introduced on preview. Several posts, from the beginning, pointed this out with nothing done. Then on top of that, suggestions were mentioned to address many issues with the combat system. They took suggestions and went the opposite direction with some, others they implemented with a counter change that made the "fix" pointless.

    Not sure what is really going on with the development team for this game. It feels like they want to strip much of the grinding ability away to replace it with crazy. Shame

    I don't like the overall feel of the direction the game is going. So your given a new, bug ridden, and overall boring combat system with broken scaling. How long is it going to take for all that to come at least half way? a year? lol, no thank you
  • quickfoot#7851 quickfoot Member Posts: 488 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    agilesto said:

    I would really like to see real communication about the scaling issues, from Julia of course but also from the devs (if possible) and MimicKing.

    ....

    So I'd really like to have an answer, a discussion about the specific 3 design flaws I pointed out (and the others that people been talking about for weeks). I'd genuinely understand the idea behind all that, know if changes are on the way, or how do they respond to my concerns on this post.

    I agree, I would like to see an honest discussion or at least some communication from the devs regarding this issue soon. I would really like to see them come out and say that they made a mistake and are working on correcting it by next thursday. I know I know, you may say I'm a dreamer. Honestly, I think the best we can hope for is them raising the caps and tweaking whatever specific cases in dungeons where the critters or bosses are just way out wack for whatever reason.

  • urlord283urlord283 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,078 Arc User
    all I know is... in an average skirmish… not advanced, most times it must be abandoned. I have only had 2 successful since the update and both were "bronze". This is broken.
  • melisandrelarojamelisandrelaroja Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 15 Arc User
    Hello,

    Down scaling is bad by itself, but much worse when it's done this way.
    You still get your stats from artifacts and most points from some gear (the old gear at least), but they destroyed enchantments, bondings and insignias. You get just like 35% the stats you should from those. So why would anyone upgrade their enchants to r15 if they will give like 300 something points once you get into tong, codg, etc? why getting legendary insignias if they give 340 points only? r15 bonding give only 24% stats from pet in Tong.
    You can go with r10s and blue insignias. The diference is nothing.
    No point at all in gearing up.
    You don't have to upgrade anything.
    So, why even play the game?

    Regards,
    Meli
  • bigman99#8273 bigman99 Member Posts: 494 Arc User
    hustin1 said:

    Scaling is definitely broken. As a test, once you hit 80, go to Wyllowwood and do one of the runic HE's there. It is ***vastly*** harder if you are scaled down from 80 than if you are 73. Monsters hit you roughly 4x as hard. If the devs think this is "in a good place", I'd suggest demanding a refund for several math courses. This is in no way correct behavior.

    excellent example, and right on the mark.
  • hustin1hustin1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,318 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    bobo#5090 said:

    Like I said, down scaling needs to be removed completely abandoned. If we can't go back to old content and "kick HAMSTER and take names" then progression is worthless. Farming for resources to restore weapons, or artifacts would then be even more worthless than it is now. Farming for things like frosted glyphs will be worthless.

    I too understand the "need" for scaling, but in all honesty if this scaling makes it to console the way it is now, I will end up doing the new campaign and then shutting the xbox off, or finding a new game to play while I wait for NWO to get fixed. As it is now my alts(all lvl 70, all with r7-8 enchants) can't really do anything solo in chult(haven't tried Barovia, or SKT, or CA), but I remember the first time I took my pally thru those areas at a similar lvl that he got stomped all the time. Now he's in a good place, and all that is gonna get fubared.

    REMOVE SCALING COMPLETELY, and make this game fun again.

    Won't happen. This dev team is incapable of any sort of about-face, at least in any reasonable time frame, if ever. Doing so requires swallowing some pride and at least privately admitting a mistake, and that isn't happening.

    - They changed leveling dungeons from five persons to three and dumbed the dungeons down in Mod 6. This removed the ability for new players to learn party synergy. They're only just reversing this mistake now, four years later.
    - They removed a bunch of dungeons in Mod 6. Ever since, players have been demanding that they be returned. Instead we get "redesigned" versions of some that lost much of what made them special. As for the rest, we get Tales of Old instead of just putting them back into the damned queues already.
    - They removed all ability for non-self-healing classes to heal in solo content, even lengthening the potion cooldown from 12 seconds to 18 in Mod 6. Don't ever expect that to be reversed.
    - They removed in-combat regen even while soloing. Instead of reintroducing it, even if only when soloing, we get yet another band-aid in the form of Dusk and Pilgrim footwear.
    - They removed lots of and lots of sought-after, unique item drops with Mod 6. They could reintroduce them (as doing so wouldn't be game-breaking, especially with set bonuses removed), but no. Instead we get Jubilee transmute packs that lack the unique dye colors of the originals.

    There are probably many more that I forgot. As for the scaling, if history is any guide, this is what I predict. Pride won't allow any major changes any time soon. They'll waste three months "twisting dials". Some areas will improve, some will get even worse, and the slow pace of improvement will infuriate players even more. Then they'll introduce a band-aid or two, like special items that boost your stats in scaled content while soloing.

    Then they'll declare victory and say everything is WAI. Four years from now, when it comes time to raise the cap to 90, a new designer will have a new "grand design" idea to make his mark on the game. Like Mods 6 and 16, it will be yet another dip in the Schuylkill -- you'll come out of the changes, but as what species will be up for grabs. Some things like scaling might be rolled back, but expect a whole new screw job to take its place. That seems to be the unbreakable rule with respect to raising the level cap.
    Harper Chronicles: Cap Snatchers (RELEASED) - NW-DPUTABC6X
    Blood Magic (RELEASED) - NW-DUU2P7HCO
    Children of the Fey (RELEASED) - NW-DKSSAPFPF
    Buried Under Blacklake (WIP) - NW-DEDV2PAEP
    The Redcap Rebels (WIP) - NW-DO23AFHFH
  • abn173d2003#3683 abn173d2003 Member Posts: 28 Arc User
    Why overreact so much to something that obviously is a bug? Post the bug on the boards and wait a few weeks, and it will likely be fixed.

    That was not an overreaction. it was a point to show how the scaling is messed up. it was reported by myself at least a month ago. nothing was done about it and we were told that scaling is in a "good place". if you think its an overreaction on my part, please try to run the dungeons. See it for yourself. I dont think anyone wants the tank in their group 1 shot by an imp.

  • wylonuswylonus Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,368 Arc User
    players dont want to wait weeks or longer, they give up waiting and come back 6 months later expected to be playable and still not fixed. good reason why players are fed up. worst programmer team ever and loads of bad decisions, keep ruining a good game that it was. if they love playing with nerf bat, they should play in nerf league instead of game programmers.
    still again, players are already sick of nerfbatting so long and no end of stopping the nerfages. some players already paid and got screwed, and now they are being careful and watch wallets very closely or move on as long devs keep using nerfbat and make paywall bigger.

    see example, Tales of the Old. why released as laggy and unplayable. i just dont understand these guys.
  • dennizonndennizonn Member Posts: 21 Arc User

    graydoom said:

    Devs just need fix scaling or this is the END, no way to do most dgs... I do Kessel and the boss just kill all of us like nothing... lvl80 dont makes any sense if this still broken

    I'm not a fan of the scaling either, but Kessels and many other of the current dungeons are still beatable. However they do require people to actually play the mechanics in them (many of which are long since forgotten by a player base used to grossly overpowering everything). On preview my guild was able to do Kessels with only 3 of us (OP Tank, HR and CW) without a problem, but all 3 were veteran players who knew the mechanics from back in mod 3 days .... so we let the beholders do much of the damage to Kessel and used the exploding golems to finish him off. If you were just trying to rush right into the middle of the boss/beholders/golems and tried to out DPS the boss ... then it's not a surprise you had trouble.

    It's also worth noting that when scaled you need to reorganize your stats. If scaling down puts your armor pen at 30,000 then you need to add more armor pen from either a companion or mount or some other non-scaling source. Just because your stats were good before the scaling does not mean they will be OK scaled down (This is because the "scaling" system does not really scale anything, it just caps the stats a certain type of item can have, which means if you are getting a large % of important stats from items which get capped, you can end up considerably weaker when scaled down).
    This is too much. I have no interest in having to figure this type of thing out. I play this game to relax, and prefer to solo virtually all content outside of dungeons and skirmishes. Campaigns should be something that can soloed without overthinking it as well. Add difficulty plus better rewards when you group with others, but don't punish the casual and solo player like this mod does. The thing is, I know many people who play this game for the fun, not the computation and group formation aspects. Content was scaled after the fact in ESO, and it was a good thing, but this is nothing more than annoying and too hard for many.

    Lose your casual player-base due to keeping this system, and you will hasten the decline of the game. I have dumped hundreds of dollars into this game because I wanted to. I only have one character at 15K item level and I was able to enjoy the majority of the game before. Don't expect me to change play-style, social dynamics, and stress over nonsense to beat a dungeon; it just isn't a good way forward.
  • cdnbisoncdnbison Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 806 Arc User
    I'm ok with scaling as a concept - to a point. If I complete content, and I go back, I shouldn't feel like quests in that zone are difficult. This is content I've already mastered, so should expect to maintain that level of mastery afterwards. The problem, I think, isn't that Cryptic is scaling us down, but seems to be putting us even further back than where we would be if we started the zone 'at level', when we should be scaled to the beginning of the *next* zone, or possibly the one after that.

    I personally think that opposing % stats should be kept on players (i.e. if you have 60k crit - 50% - at level 80, when scaled, you'd still have 50% crit). Adjust HP / Power to a relative % (i.e. a lvl 40 player has X% of a similarly equipped level 80). No, not all players will have all their stats capped when reaching a particular zone, but it's not unreasonable to think that they'd have one or two at the targets - the perk for a scaled player would be having more stats capped. A level 40 tank with 50% Damage Resist is still resisting as much as the scaled level 80 player - who is also capped at 50% DR. Deflect / Crit Avoid / Awareness would affect it, I know - but that's the perk of having 'mastered' that particular content.

    In this model, players still maintain their relative power, but given the stat caps, the content should still remain at least modestly challenging for even a BiS group.
  • aratecharatech Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 269 Arc User
    cdnbison said:

    I'm ok with scaling as a concept - to a point. If I complete content, and I go back, I shouldn't feel like quests in that zone are difficult. This is content I've already mastered, so should expect to maintain that level of mastery afterwards. The problem, I think, isn't that Cryptic is scaling us down, but seems to be putting us even further back than where we would be if we started the zone 'at level', when we should be scaled to the beginning of the *next* zone, or possibly the one after that.

    I personally think that opposing % stats should be kept on players (i.e. if you have 60k crit - 50% - at level 80, when scaled, you'd still have 50% crit). Adjust HP / Power to a relative % (i.e. a lvl 40 player has X% of a similarly equipped level 80). No, not all players will have all their stats capped when reaching a particular zone, but it's not unreasonable to think that they'd have one or two at the targets - the perk for a scaled player would be having more stats capped. A level 40 tank with 50% Damage Resist is still resisting as much as the scaled level 80 player - who is also capped at 50% DR. Deflect / Crit Avoid / Awareness would affect it, I know - but that's the perk of having 'mastered' that particular content.

    In this model, players still maintain their relative power, but given the stat caps, the content should still remain at least modestly challenging for even a BiS group.

    Yeah, you see...that's the *logical* and *proper* way to do it. Soooooo it's not going to happen.

    Trust me. I've been with this game since the open beta. This is Module 6 (where they raised the level cap to 70) all over again. They had 4 years to learn this lesson and get it right. They haven't. They're not going to. Because they're more concerned about selling you the same 40$ horse again every four months, rather than giving you a balanced game...
  • hustin1hustin1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,318 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    I have no doubt that the lead designer has been in conference rooms insisting that the overall balance is "just fine". They'll waste a few months turning their little "dials", but the adamant refusal to admit to a mistake will mean the following: for every "dial" that tones down something on an enemy, a separate "dial" will tone something else up. We went through this with Mod 6.

    So, if players think that enemies are too hard to kill, perhaps we'll see enemy defense go down but enemy base HP go up. Or perhaps defense will be "dialed" up and HP will be "dialed" down. If enemies are hitting too hard, perhaps base damage will be "dialed" down but base armor penetration will be "dialed" up (or vice versa). Ego will prevent any true toning down of enemies for several months or longer, depending on what the active player numbers look like.

    All this "dialing" will be done in a quest to find that magical set of values that make difficulty "just right" across the game. Never mind that it is in and of itself a fool's errand, since even if such a "golden set" is found it will be extremely fragile. Any further changes to the game will inevitably invalidate this set of parameters and the "dialing" will have to start anew.

    As for capping vs. scaling (yes, Virginia, they are different) I suppose if one wanted to make people hate the concept of socialism this would be a good way to do it -- force everyone to be absolutely equal no matter what they do and watch the soul crushing commence. It might make sense in something competitive like certain auto racing circuits where you want purely the best driver to win, but in an RPG it makes no sense at all.
    Harper Chronicles: Cap Snatchers (RELEASED) - NW-DPUTABC6X
    Blood Magic (RELEASED) - NW-DUU2P7HCO
    Children of the Fey (RELEASED) - NW-DKSSAPFPF
    Buried Under Blacklake (WIP) - NW-DEDV2PAEP
    The Redcap Rebels (WIP) - NW-DO23AFHFH
  • gphxgphxgphxgphx Member Posts: 184 Arc User
    'I suppose if one wanted to make people hate the concept of socialism this would be a good way to do it -- force everyone to be absolutely equal no matter what they do and watch the soul crushing commence.'

    I mentioned that very same metaphor to a family member yesterday. And the 'evil capitalists' they want to drag down to the common denominator are the very people who spent a lot of money in their store to get geared.
  • wylonuswylonus Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,368 Arc User
    this is exactly, Mod 6 all over again, not learned the lesson they made mistake, and seeing they repeat same mistake.
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