Official M16: Rogue

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  • rustlord
    rustlord Member Posts: 1,454 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    I'm going to make this brief hoping it makes sense and somebody reads it.

    Whisperknife path is quite heavily undermatched not excelling at a role it is trying to be: Is it ranged? Is it AoE? It is good for neither. It is just a tad bit better than the other path. Powers and feats are not where they fit the most.

    Hateful Knives is very thematic of Whisperknife in all respects and should be exclusive to the WK tree. It should really be the counterpart of Shocking Execution from the Assassin side

    SoD should be in the Assassin path

    Tenacious Concealment is outdated. Nobody ever used it at 1 power point, it is an either 100% stealth loss nullified or you don't slot it.

    Dagger Threat (or w/e the one that deals more damage closer you are) should be FARTHER. It does not go along the theme of being ranged to be "the closer you are" and so has never made any sense to use it.

  • rustlord
    rustlord Member Posts: 1,454 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    Assassin path is more or less in a good place, less the global issues present in all classes of course - too low at wills, too high dailies.

    Stealth being useless is an arguable thing. In PvP it still serves a purpose to just be invisible all the time but outside of that it does very little towards PvE content. Because AI monsters don't get scared or panic when attacked by something they can't see! One thing TR mains I think never get - the psychological tool that this is in PvP. It makes a difference when you fight somebody who knows and doesn't know

    But monsters don't care. But it can be marketable to PvE if you built on those aspects and tweak content mechanics to where "stealth" is useful. At minimum, a temporary FEAR type debuff on an enemy you attack from stealth. A one-hit kill very FIRST STRIKE-like on AI enemies makes sense too so you'll have a purpose to sneak in and get rid of the toughest enemy (of course not the boss) in a pack of AI.

    You can, along those lines, do an alternate PvE only effect to First Strike to instantly kill a single enemy from stealth.

    So much for being brief haha!
  • illuvitaro
    illuvitaro Member Posts: 4 Arc User
    Duelist's Flurry doesn't properly apply bleed if there's a height difference between player and target.

    Easily reproducable in Trade of Blades. Attacking the dummies in the lower(dirt) area from on top of the higher(cobblestone) seemingly prevents the bleed application. It works when standing on the same level as them. Application also works fine on the other dummies.
  • illuvitaro
    illuvitaro Member Posts: 4 Arc User
    Smoke Bombs cd is too long, 20s is a long time to wait.
    A lower cd, like 12-13s with appropriate dmg/duration, would make it more fun and engaging to use.

    Similarly for Bait and Switch. The cd is much too long for it to be enjoyable to use.
    On live it has some synergy with Dazing Strike as it gathers enemies, however, with DS moved to Assassin this interaction is mostly gone.


    Path of the Blade could do with a full rework. It's cool, thematically, but gameplay-wise it's dull.
  • kythelion#3210
    kythelion#3210 Member Posts: 348 Arc User
    First Strike needs to be reworked. You have specifically lowered damage and introduced scaling to the point we can't steamroll anything. And it's the last feature you get in Assassin. What good is extra damage on one hit of a battle when you want battles to take time? This would be a good place to add a feature that procs on stealth or CA damage use, the way I think the other features should, that adds something fun. Maybe apply a poison dot to all targets hit in the next 5 seconds or something. Er, well, probably not that since one of the feats does that, but something.
  • joe7777
    joe7777 Member Posts: 509 Arc User
    rustlord said:

    One thing TR mains I think never get - the psychological tool that this is in PvP.

    If it's any consolation, i get it. I'm not big on PvP myself though but I am well aware invisibility is a great tool for getting the drop on an opponent and those aware of the potential of an ambush will be wary of it and it can make them edgy at times. In PvE Stealth has had a derp effect on enemies where they stand around confused or just go after another player. While them panicking and becoming afraid from the prospect they could be assassinated in the very near future isn't a bad idea we have to remember that critters are generally devoid of conscious thought and throw their lives at us like lambs to the slaughter without so much as a second thought.
  • ironcuttingsword#1719
    ironcuttingsword#1719 Member Posts: 22 Arc User
    Core


    Atwills

    Sly Flourish - Needs an added effect, every 3rd strike apply debuff enemy takes 1% more damage stacking up to 3 times, lasts for 10 seconds.


    Encounters

    Blade Flurry - Needs the charges back

    Lashing Blade - For the stealth effect needs 100% critical chance to go with the 50% critical severity.

    Smoke Bomb - Magnitude needs to be 325 and cooldown reduced to 13 seconds.

    Bait and Switch - Cooldown needs reduced to 13 seconds.


    Daily

    Moves Hateful Knives to Whisperknife Paragon. Move Lurker's Assault to the Core, and remove the AP block.


    Class Mechanic

    Stealth - add 5-10% Critical Severity.


    Feats

    Scoundrel Training - Change to 5% Encounter damage.
  • ironcuttingsword#1719
    ironcuttingsword#1719 Member Posts: 22 Arc User
    Whisperknife

    Atwills

    Disheartening Strike - Change dots magnitude to 40.

    Shuriken Toss - change cast time .25, change number of targets to 4, change magnitude to 40


    Encounters

    Vengeant's Pursuit - change the aoe attack animation as its very clunky to work. For the unstealthed version increase the magnitude for 350. For stealthed increase the magnitude to 700. Cooldown to 14 seconds.

    Blitz - Change to 250 magnitude, gain 1 second cooldown for each mob mob hit, max of 4 seconds.

    Impact Shot - Change root effect to a Bleed effect with 70 magnitude for 5 seconds.

    Shadow Strike - Change cooldown to 10 seconds.

    Shadowy Disappearance - Change to 225 magnitude. Change cooldown to 11 seconds


    Class Features

    Dagger Threat - Change to 10% Damage

    Advantageous Position - Change 20% damage reduction to 15% projectile damage.


    Feats

    Switch Shadow of Demise and Toxic Blades.

    Toxic Blades - Change to 50 magnitude and max stacks to 10

    One with Shadows - 10% damage buff for 15 second. Refill full stealth bar.
  • ironcuttingsword#1719
    ironcuttingsword#1719 Member Posts: 22 Arc User
    Assassin

    Encounters

    Impossible to Catch - Change cooldown to 10 seconds.

    Deft Strike - Change stealth effect to gain 5% damage for 5 seconds.

    Wicked Reminder - Change cooldown to 13 seconds. Change to stealth effect to a bleed for 50 magnitude for 10 seconds

    Dazing Strike - Change magnitude to 275 magnitude.


    Class Features

    Infiltrator's Action - Critical strikes give Combat Advantage for 5 seconds. 10 second cooldown.

    Invisible Infiltrator - Change to 10% damage for 10 seconds.

    Oppressive Darkness - needs a buff, can't give numbers as tooltip doesn't give specifics.


    Feats

    Move Toxic Blades to Whisperknife Paragon. Move Shadow of Demise to Assassin Paragon.

    Hastily Sharpen Blades - Changes Crit Chance to Damage%.

    Shadow's Flurry - Change to a 20% chance.
  • demonmonger
    demonmonger Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,350 Arc User
    [color=red]BUG: dazing strike only hits one enemy when not in stealth
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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  • trgluestickz
    trgluestickz Member Posts: 1,136 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    @rustlord

    I thought I'd chime in to highlight some things about whisperknife and hateful knives on preview since you have recently come back. Some of this you figured out and other parts you may not have caught yet:

    On Whisperknife:

    The playstyle on preview for whisperknife is very different from how it is on live. The preview version of WK currently functions in a similar way to oldschool permastealth sabotuer builds, where the focus was on staying in stealth for prolonged periods of time. This is very different from how sabotuer and whisperknife work on live right now.

    On live, sabotuer is heavily oriented towards entering and exiting stealth as often as possible and spends more time out in the open than older sabotuer builds did.
    WK on preview does have access to two feats (shadowy opportunity and cunning ambusher) that try to incentivize you to play the way sabotuers do on live.
    However, the permastealth feat hidden attacks and other stealth feats + having access to lots of stealth/utility powers + longer encounter cooldowns drowned out these 2 feat's influence on WK's playstyle.

    Whisperknife also no longer supports aggressive playstyle quirks as well as it did on live. It also leans more towards being an AOE build now, on live it didn't have this leaning.

    On Hateful Knives:

    Despite its very WK sounding name, Hateful knives actually suits assassin's playstyle a little bit better than the reworked whisperknife now. Both still benefit from having access to it though and I wouldn't want to see it taken out of either path. Making this power a shared power was a smart move.

    To address the bit about hateful knives needing to be the WK counterpart to shocking execution, I'd argue it already is since hateful knives is currently a universal power and WK doesn't have shocking execution. Meaning Hateful knives DOES function as WK's shocking execution without needing to pull it off assassin.
    Post edited by trgluestickz on
    --
    PVP Rogue,
    --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
    Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
    Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
    Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
    Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
    Platform: PC
  • kythelion#3210
    kythelion#3210 Member Posts: 348 Arc User

    [color=red]BUG: dazing strike only hits one enemy when not in stealth

    Isn't that how it's supposed to work? It's only supposed to be a cone from stealth?
  • micky1p00
    micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,540 Arc User
    edited April 2019

    [color=red]BUG: dazing strike only hits one enemy when not in stealth

    Isn't that how it's supposed to work? It's only supposed to be a cone from stealth?
    It is a very very small area 3 target cap AoE. On stealth it's a cone of 5(or 3 too?) targets.

    I may be mis-remembering the target cap numbers, but yest it was/is an AoE out of stealth, it was the most predominant when singularity was used, you could have positioned and hit 3 targets just when they dropped out of the singularity.
  • kythelion#3210
    kythelion#3210 Member Posts: 348 Arc User
    micky1p00 said:

    [color=red]BUG: dazing strike only hits one enemy when not in stealth

    Isn't that how it's supposed to work? It's only supposed to be a cone from stealth?
    It is a very very small area 3 target cap AoE. On stealth it's a cone of 5(or 3 too?) targets.

    I may be mis-remembering the target cap numbers, but yest it was/is an AoE out of stealth, it was the most predominant when singularity was used, you could have positioned and hit 3 targets just when they dropped out of the singularity.
    Well HAMSTER, I've been missing out then. I've never hit more than one target outside of stealth.
  • lordseth1985
    lordseth1985 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 312 Arc User
    It would be nice IF devs could bring back some of the old feats from pre mod6 changes, like:

    Dazzling Blades [Your At-Wills powers have 3/6/9/12/15% chance to reduce cooldown on recharging Encounter powers by 1 second.]
    Critical teamwork [You and your nearby allies gain a 12/3/4/5% chance to crit.]
    Unerring Ambush [Strikes with Deft Strike, Dazing Strike and Blitz deal 4/8/12/16/20% more damage from Stealth .]
    Brutal Wound [Courage Breaker and Whirlwind of Blades also deal 50/100/150/200/250% of your weapon damage over 5 seconds.]
    Catspaw Style [Your Blitz and Dazing Strike reduce the target;s defenses by 2/4/6/8/10% This effect cannot stack.]
    Mocking Knave [Sly Flourish and Cloud of Steel deal 2/4/6/8/10% more damage. Additionally, Cloud of Steel's damage bonus per stack is increased by .5/1/1.5/2/2.5%.]
    Nimble Blade [35% chance to deal an additional 4/8/12/1/20% damage on a non critical strike.]

    IMO they were much better than the ones after mod 6 "rework" of the game...

    Seth QuickHands - Rogue, natural born assassin.
  • demonmonger
    demonmonger Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,350 Arc User

    Stealth currently provides Combat Adavantage, a 5% damage boost for several seconds after leaving stealth, and special effects on powers themselves. For an upcoming build stealth damage boost is going to 10% for the several seconds after leaving stealth. There aren't any more changes planned for stealth before release.

    Rogue does lag behind in AoE damage and will likely receive a bit of a boost there.

    Bait and Switch is going to get a threat dump applied to it where the decoy will take a percentage of your threat.


    Currently the focus has been heavily on fixing various bugs across classes/features/etc. But there is still room for tweaks to classes.

    The most useful feedback in this regard is discussions about a given power/feat/mechanic and how it fits in with others/changes that could be made to it.

    Feedback that is along the lines of "change it back to how it used to be" or "rebuild this entire paragon path/class" aren't realistic to action on and therefore are the least likely to result in changes.

    if you want to boost tr damage with aoe ... just fix dazing strike so that it hits more than one target when used without stealth.
    keep the mod 15 version of dazing strike please... (mod 15 version as cone effect area attack)
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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  • theothergaliusz#7671
    theothergaliusz#7671 Member Posts: 56 Arc User
    I feel like balancing a class is all about comparing it powers to others classes feats/encounter/dailies.

    Can anyone point out 3 most powerfull powers that other classes have and match them to TR?

    It could be a list of synergies.

    If you only post changes, not explaining them (this is how DEV operate - because they are... who they are).

    If you cant get your class better, you always can try to make other classes look weaker and break their synergies like it happend to TR :), and then left him with PLAIN skills that you execute in order as much as cooldown let you. Its so RPG style.
  • beigeman#7856
    beigeman#7856 Member Posts: 49 Arc User
    I've finally found an improvement mod16 is bringing to TR gameplay.... No longer will I have to scroll down 2 pages to switch from dazing strike to smoke bomb whilst running to trash mobs after finishing a boss.
  • arcanjo86
    arcanjo86 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,092 Arc User

    Stealth currently provides Combat Adavantage, a 5% damage boost for several seconds after leaving stealth, and special effects on powers themselves. For an upcoming build stealth damage boost is going to 10% for the several seconds after leaving stealth. There aren't any more changes planned for stealth before release.

    Rogue does lag behind in AoE damage and will likely receive a bit of a boost there.

    Bait and Switch is going to get a threat dump applied to it where the decoy will take a percentage of your threat.


    Currently the focus has been heavily on fixing various bugs across classes/features/etc. But there is still room for tweaks to classes.

    The most useful feedback in this regard is discussions about a given power/feat/mechanic and how it fits in with others/changes that could be made to it.

    Feedback that is along the lines of "change it back to how it used to be" or "rebuild this entire paragon path/class" aren't realistic to action on and therefore are the least likely to result in changes.

    Stealth currently provides Combat Adavantage, a 5% damage boost for several seconds after leaving stealth, and special effects on powers themselves. For an upcoming build stealth damage boost is going to 10% for the several seconds after leaving stealth. There aren't any more changes planned for stealth before release.

    Rogue does lag behind in AoE damage and will likely receive a bit of a boost there.

    Bait and Switch is going to get a threat dump applied to it where the decoy will take a percentage of your threat.


    Currently the focus has been heavily on fixing various bugs across classes/features/etc. But there is still room for tweaks to classes.

    The most useful feedback in this regard is discussions about a given power/feat/mechanic and how it fits in with others/changes that could be made to it.

    Feedback that is along the lines of "change it back to how it used to be" or "rebuild this entire paragon path/class" aren't realistic to action on and therefore are the least likely to result in changes.

    why not keep the live version to grant next power 100% crit and drain all stealth bar? thats what makes rogues amazing, specialy assassin, also a poison/bleed/weak spot mechanic would make assassin/whisperknife a more interesting, stealth smoke bomb apply a 5 magnitude poison dot (smoke bomb duration), stealth lashing blade aplly a 10 magnitude bleed dot(per 2seconds, total 8 seconds), bait and switch decoy drains 50% threat from caster threat pool
  • king1slayer
    king1slayer Member Posts: 8 Arc User
    Thought I'll give my feedback on the rogue too. Overall the playstyle just feels clunky, slow and nothing connects. Cooldowns are just too long on everything. Encounters should have their cooldowns reduced by atleast 10%, even 20%. Stealth as a mechanic would need something more as it was stated numerous times in this thread.

    Swift Footwork: As it says in the name, it should also give movement speed. Add a 10% Run Speed boost to it.
    Scoundrel Training: After the 500 --> 1000 = 1% stats change, this seems too low. Should be 5000 CA.

    Shared powers:

    At-wills:
    Sly Flourish needs an added effect: »Final strike of this combo increanses the target's damage taken by 4% for 15s, stacking up to 3 times.« This is the live version, should work for m16 too. Can be weaker for m16, but just add something…

    Encounters:
    Lashing Blade: The added crit severity when used from stealth isn't good after the 50% crit chance cap. Either make it also 100% crit when used from stealth or change the steath bonus to something else. It doesn't feel good for a bonus to work only 50% (at max) of the time.
    Smoke Bomb: Lower it's cooldown.
    Bait and Switch: Same as Smoke bomb, lower the cooldown. Also, why not make it explode when the duration ends? Would be nice since we can see/remove traps, we should also place some too.

    Class Features:
    Tactics: Should be atleast 20%, considering how action point gain was lowered overall.
    Tenacious Concealment: This is just useless, the numbers should be much higher.


    Continuing in next post...
  • king1slayer
    king1slayer Member Posts: 8 Arc User
    Assassin:

    At-wills:
    Gloaming Cut is not refilling stealth after it kills something. Also, the cast time could be lower, it feels too slow.

    Encounters:
    Impossible to Catch: Useless power now, considering what it does and it's long cooldown. Deflect chance should still be 100% and it should also increanse our run speed. We're impossible to catch during it after all. Also, somehow add the Press Advantage feat from live version. Maybe that could be the steathed effect: Increanse your combat advantage by 10% for it's duration.
    Wicked Reminder: Stealthed effect is useless, most of us will have our crit capped anyway. Change it to: Also increanse the target's damage taken from critical hits by 5%.

    Class Features:
    Invisible Infiltrator: Considering how long we need to charge our daily powers now, this boost should last longer.
    Infiltrator's Action: Same as Invisible Infiltrator. Or rework them altogether.
    Oppressive Darkness: Please write in the tooltip how much more damage we deal.
    First Strike: 15% is too low, noone is going to use this. Even at 75% on live noone is using it. Should be something like this: Your first attack in combat deals 50% more damage and has 100% crit chance. Refreshes after 15s.

    Feats:
    Assassin's Targed: Great, I like the idea. I think this could just be assassin paths mechanic. Just add it to mechanics row and add another feat here.
    Toxic Blades: Great, could also be applied by at-wills. But looks perfect for Whisperknife path.
    Master of Shadows: Not sure, just replace it with something else.
    Hastily Sharpened Blades: Does this go over the cap? If not, then it's totally useless. Could be replaced by a power that @lordseth1985 suggested: Nimle Blade: % chance to deal an additional % damage on a non critical strike.
    Execution: Too low of a chance to proc. The % life and/or % chance should be increased.
    Shadow's Flurry: This is fun, could have a bigger % chance, but I like it. Maybe also make it 100% trigger when using a daily.


    Continuing in next post...
  • king1slayer
    king1slayer Member Posts: 8 Arc User
    Whisperknife:

    At-wills:
    Dishearthening Strike: reduce Awareness with DoT or let it just increase the damage the targed takes by 5%.
    Shuriken Toss: Cool idea to add shurikens to rogues disposal, but the animation is so clunky and slow it's not worth using. Lower the cast time and make it ricochet more.

    Encounters:
    Blitz: Remove the jump back. Atleast add this to the stealthed version.
    Impact Shot: Shouldn't go on cooldown when used from stealth.
    Shadow Strike: Lower the cast time.
    Shadowy Disappearance: This needs something more, considering it's the final encounter. Make it also refill stealth when used from stealth.

    Daily:
    Lurker's Assault: Remove the AP block during it. And damage boost should be higher. 10% is nothing, considering how long we need to charge our dailies.

    Class Features:
    Dagger Threat: Makes no sense to be closer to your target when using ranged powers…
    Razor Action: Pretty sure there should also be a 2% damage increase per target hit, max 10%, same as run speed. Also, please write how long the boost lasts. Make it last 30s?

    Feats:
    Last Moments: This should be in the Assassin's path.
    Hidden Attacks: Fine, I guess. Could also have the effect of added % damage to foes not targeting you.
    One with the Shadows: Should refill whole stealth meter and increanse it's damage boost or duration.
    Shadow of Demise: This should be in Assassin's path, period. There is just no logical explanation why this is here…
    Gutterborn's Touch: Noone will take this, we will have our accuracy capped all the time anyway. Atleast replace accuracy with combat advantage…


    Final feats (both paths):

    Assassin: Assassin's Targed as a mechanic.
    Last Moments | Knife's Edge | Skullcracker | Back Alley Tactics | Shadow of Demise
    Execution | Dazzling Blades | Duelist's Expertise | Shadowborn | Shadow's Flurry

    Whisperknife: Master of Illusion as a mechanic.
    Toxic Blades | Dark reimbursement | Return to Shadows | Shadowy Opportunity | Gutterborn's Touch
    Shady Preparations | Hidden Attacks | One with the Shadows | Hastily Sharpened Blades | Ambusher's Haste

    Dazzling Blades: Your At-Will powers have a 15% chance to reduce cooldown on recharging Encounter powers by 1 second. Can trigger once every 5 seconds.
    Shadowborn (live version): entering stealth causes your next encounter power to deal an additional 75% of it's damage, as physical damage, over 4,5s. Adjust it to mod16 power levels, but I think rogues should keep this feat, it goes well into the assassin's path.

    Remember the Mirage Weapons set bonus: When you use an encounter power, you become a Master of Illusion for 10s. As a master of Illusion you will summon 3 illusions of yourself to fight for you, attacking your enemies. A master of illusion also does 3% more damage. You can only be a master of illusion once every 30 seconds. Add this somehow. Don't know, but I feel it goes nice with rogues, distracting the enemy with shadows/illusions and attacking from stealth.


    In summary:
    Priority adjustments should be (from left to right): Adjust and replace/add feats that complement the theme/style of each path, lower the coodowns on all encounter powers by atleast 10%, change some of the stealthed effects of encounters (lashing blade, itc,…),…
  • mwk
    mwk Member Posts: 332 Arc User
    Neverwinter Rogue community is literally crying out!
  • chalumeau#8710
    chalumeau#8710 Member Posts: 6 Arc User
    Well I've been wondering why so few posts on TR so I went to read other classes posts and came to 2 answers :
    1st the most obvious apparently is that many rogues have left the game since mod 15, which I can't blame.
    2nd and most important IMO, is that all posts on TR say the same things (I'll try to sum up ) so why make another post if we all agree ?
    Despite the loss of efficiency which has to be compared to other classes, we feel a lack of synergy, of logic between parangons, and most off all, of fun playing that way. So since we all agree, it may be time to take our advises into account (feedback are full of reasonnable proposals), or assume officially that TR is now a class only for PVP , cause we actually don't see ATM why a PVE group would desire a TR instead of another DPS class.
  • kythelion#3210
    kythelion#3210 Member Posts: 348 Arc User
    Well, right now we're going to be more wanted than ranger, but that's only cause stuff is still broken and causes damage to zero out. I think, from my experience, that the damage isn't actually too far behind other classes on average. But I do agree with the sentiment that it just isn't fun right now. This doesn't feel like a rogue to me.
  • doink#2651
    doink#2651 Member Posts: 27 Arc User
    Why post feedback anyways if it gets ignored? Why try to help and make the class work? Even the devs dont care about us....so it´s fighting windmills now for me. We can post what we want, we dont get heared.
    As for me, I am a customer, not a no-money player, and as a customer I rely on devs doing the game in a way that we can enjoy. But if even ALL testers say, it´s NOT enjoyable at all, then you as a company, that NEEDS the customers, are doing a big mistake imho. But why bother, we all know about MTG mmorpg and that devs left for doing this game....
    Doink....useless TR...