Official M16: Rogue

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Comments

  • tgwolf
    tgwolf Member Posts: 497 Arc User

    The balance between at-will and encounter powers are bit of. At-will do so little demage that I have to wait until ecounter power is up to kill 5 mobs. Better would be to do less demage with encounter powers but with shorter cooldown and more dmg on at-will powers.

    No, this is exactly what has brought the game to the state it's in now and made necessary the changes in Mod16.

    When Encounters and to the same effect, Dailies, have lower CD's in exchange for lowering the damage they do it creates the endless slope of being forced to further decrease the damage they do as Power increases and eventually land right where we are now; weak Encounters that might help in killing things but are practically worthless overall and getting worse with every Module.

    I get that it's difficult for some people to adjust to different concepts but that is what is needed right now, for people to have an actual understanding of their Class rather than relying on being overgeared and letting that carry you.

    That's why the majority of players over 14.5k currently range from average to poor at best at the game.
  • kythelion#3210
    kythelion#3210 Member Posts: 348 Arc User
    tgwolf said:

    skuallpw said:

    I know you specifically want us to quit using dailies, but in an hour of running undermountain content today I was able to fill my AP guage and use my daily 3 times. I'm using a frankenslotted 10kish level 72 so far. Not super high end, I know, but think about it. That averages out to using my daily once, possibly twice, in an entire dungeon. I wasn't even able to fill it for use once every mission.

    is really that bad :o
    It's not "bad", it's how things are intended to work.

    Being able to near freely spam our Dailies was a luxury that has spoiled us and created a warped view of how it should work for people who didn't realize this long before this point. The combination of not knowing how to gear, build characters and sub-optimal experience with Powers at this time won't do it justice yet but Dailies can and should equal approx 1/5 of your total DPS with a Single Use, equivalently.

    Unloading an optimal Daily on a Boss will be what causes the large chunks of HP to vanish now, making their use actually mean something.

    I understand we're not going to be spamming them anymore. I'm not basing my judgement on this. But, with the current AP build rate I'm experiencing, my daily isn't even available every time I fight a boss. It's not a matter of tactical decision for use when I never have it to decide on.
  • theothergaliusz#7671
    theothergaliusz#7671 Member Posts: 56 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    I did a little testing on AP gain. Please validate if this is correct.
    I did not select any feats after loging on new copy of my character.
    • Lashing blade(+stealth) 2% ap gain 20s cooldown
    • Smoke boomb 3 targets 1% ap gain 18s? cooldown
    • Deft Strike 1% ap gain
    • at-will - Cloud of Steel 1-2 hits 1%
    Please confirm if this is normal?
  • venetrix2#1417
    venetrix2#1417 Member Posts: 7 Arc User
    Shadow of Demise and Duelist's Flurry should be on the same paragon path. If Whisperknife is meant to specialise in damaging groups, versus Assasssin's single target, it doesn't really make sense to have SoD here.
  • andune#1887
    andune#1887 Member Posts: 8 Arc User
    tgwolf said:

    The balance between at-will and encounter powers are bit of. At-will do so little demage that I have to wait until ecounter power is up to kill 5 mobs. Better would be to do less demage with encounter powers but with shorter cooldown and more dmg on at-will powers.

    No, this is exactly what has brought the game to the state it's in now and made necessary the changes in Mod16.

    When Encounters and to the same effect, Dailies, have lower CD's in exchange for lowering the damage they do it creates the endless slope of being forced to further decrease the damage they do as Power increases and eventually land right where we are now; weak Encounters that might help in killing things but are practically worthless overall and getting worse with every Module.

    I get that it's difficult for some people to adjust to different concepts but that is what is needed right now, for people to have an actual understanding of their Class rather than relying on being overgeared and letting that carry you.

    That's why the majority of players over 14.5k currently range from average to poor at best at the game.
    Yes I really get that. But when I have to wait 10 or more sec for my powers to cool down standing in some corner beceause my at- will do almost non demage that is no good. How do quest on that matter or dungons? I am not saying that at-will have to get the same demage as ecounter but do anything with them would be nice since cooldowns are very, very long.
  • blur#5900
    blur#5900 Member Posts: 490 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    Bait and Switch, the AP gain we get from decoy taking damage is 0.

    What is Path of the Blade supposed to excel at? Considering it's cooldown one would expect either high damage or high AP gain(well, as high as it gets in m16)... BTW, POTB gives 0 AP gain.
    Post edited by blur#5900 on
    image
  • dottynessy#7710
    dottynessy#7710 Member Posts: 7 Arc User
    blur#5900 said:

    Bait and Switch, the AP gain we get from decoy taking damage is 0.

    What is Path of the Blade supposed to excel at? Considering it's cooldown one would expect either high damage or high AP gain(well, as high as it gets in m16)... BTW, POTB gives 0 AP gain.

    Path of the Blades is a suicide button now, cuz it aggros in a super wide range and if you don't have a healer player with you, your pretty much dead in solo play. Before it was great to tag events and running dungeons solo etc cuz you had leech and high survivability as Skullcracker and your daily gain was nice that you could deal with the aggro.

    And yes the skill deals practically no damage nor any Ap gain, and it doesn't proc wep enchants at all either, which is another pointless thing, cuz all weapon enchants now are weak aswell numerically.

    Nobody really runs the skill even now before m16 and they definietly don't run it in any dungeon groups(i got insta kicked quite a bit the moment i used PotB) as again massive aggro and low damage. I like this skill visually and i ran it for the high AP gain so i could use my daily more during solo play.

    I don't see PotB fixed in any way as its mechanically non-viable now in m16.
  • noworries#8859
    noworries#8859 Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 651 Cryptic Developer

    I did a little testing on AP gain. Please validate if this is correct.
    I did not select any feats after loging on new copy of my character.

    • Lashing blade(+stealth) 2% ap gain 20s cooldown
    • Smoke boomb 3 targets 1% ap gain 18s? cooldown
    • Deft Strike 1% ap gain
    • at-will - Cloud of Steel 1-2 hits 1%
    Please confirm if this is normal?
    The AP gain isn't based off of the cooldown of a power, it is based on the activation time.
  • blur#5900
    blur#5900 Member Posts: 490 Arc User

    blur#5900 said:

    Bait and Switch, the AP gain we get from decoy taking damage is 0.

    What is Path of the Blade supposed to excel at? Considering it's cooldown one would expect either high damage or high AP gain(well, as high as it gets in m16)... BTW, POTB gives 0 AP gain.

    Path of the Blades is a suicide button now, cuz it aggros in a super wide range and if you don't have a healer player with you, your pretty much dead in solo play. Before it was great to tag events and running dungeons solo etc cuz you had leech and high survivability as Skullcracker and your daily gain was nice that you could deal with the aggro.

    And yes the skill deals practically no damage nor any Ap gain, and it doesn't proc wep enchants at all either, which is another pointless thing, cuz all weapon enchants now are weak aswell numerically.

    Nobody really runs the skill even now before m16 and they definietly don't run it in any dungeon groups(i got insta kicked quite a bit the moment i used PotB) as again massive aggro and low damage. I like this skill visually and i ran it for the high AP gain so i could use my daily more during solo play.

    I don't see PotB fixed in any way as its mechanically non-viable now in m16.
    Well, considering the huge rework I am wondering what PotB is good for now...
    Before it usually was a sign for inexperienced player but it had one clear advantage, highest AP gain of all powers on single target and second to Bait'n'Switch and Dazing Strike on aoe. The only usage it had for me was on Arcolith fight because it had higher damage than Smoke Bomb(SB didnt hit Arcolith past 1st hit) and far higher AP gain.

    With the changes in M16 the AP gain has been rekt so that power clearly needs a damage buff or some new effect which would make it useful. Procing Weapon enchants is a basic thing which it should do but I am aware of those issues as it had them even in the past...

    I dont mind the aggro it has if there is something useful about it but for now I dont see it.
    Same case with Bait and Switch, it became pretty much useless now.
    image
  • beigeman#7856
    beigeman#7856 Member Posts: 49 Arc User
    path of blades - would it be nice if it acted as a damaging barrier that mobs have difficulty entering. could create an interesting staggered combo with smoke bomb... smokebomb, single attack/atwills until smoke bomb enters cd.. path of blades to allow breather whilst other skills on cd.
  • dottynessy#7710
    dottynessy#7710 Member Posts: 7 Arc User

    path of blades - would it be nice if it acted as a damaging barrier that mobs have difficulty entering. could create an interesting staggered combo with smoke bomb... smokebomb, single attack/atwills until smoke bomb enters cd.. path of blades to allow breather whilst other skills on cd.

    So like warlocks blade barrier? haven't tested lock yet in m16 but i doubt thew new one is still deflecting barrier, correct me if i am wrong.

    Also overall in m16 non-damaging encounters are very very bad to slot as all damage is now shifted to encounters and AP gain is very low especially for rogues. You would simply reduce your damage massively, if you don't have a 3rd damage encounter slotted.

  • tgwolf
    tgwolf Member Posts: 497 Arc User

    tgwolf said:

    skuallpw said:

    I know you specifically want us to quit using dailies, but in an hour of running undermountain content today I was able to fill my AP guage and use my daily 3 times. I'm using a frankenslotted 10kish level 72 so far. Not super high end, I know, but think about it. That averages out to using my daily once, possibly twice, in an entire dungeon. I wasn't even able to fill it for use once every mission.

    is really that bad :o
    It's not "bad", it's how things are intended to work.

    Being able to near freely spam our Dailies was a luxury that has spoiled us and created a warped view of how it should work for people who didn't realize this long before this point. The combination of not knowing how to gear, build characters and sub-optimal experience with Powers at this time won't do it justice yet but Dailies can and should equal approx 1/5 of your total DPS with a Single Use, equivalently.

    Unloading an optimal Daily on a Boss will be what causes the large chunks of HP to vanish now, making their use actually mean something.

    I understand we're not going to be spamming them anymore. I'm not basing my judgement on this. But, with the current AP build rate I'm experiencing, my daily isn't even available every time I fight a boss. It's not a matter of tactical decision for use when I never have it to decide on.
    Something I do on Preview while dedicated players handle individual statistic logging is to go over all Powers and Classes to ensure everything is functional at all Level ranges. If everything comes back reasonable, adjusting for any current bugs then I move on, if something does not, I report it.

    Given your conditions, even in a relatively poorly optimized setup you should be managing a Daily every 3-4 mins within a dungeon environment.

    Not everything Rogue is working as intended right now (like literally every other Class) so even that is a lowball estimate.
  • kythelion#3210
    kythelion#3210 Member Posts: 348 Arc User
    tgwolf said:

    tgwolf said:

    skuallpw said:

    I know you specifically want us to quit using dailies, but in an hour of running undermountain content today I was able to fill my AP guage and use my daily 3 times. I'm using a frankenslotted 10kish level 72 so far. Not super high end, I know, but think about it. That averages out to using my daily once, possibly twice, in an entire dungeon. I wasn't even able to fill it for use once every mission.

    is really that bad :o
    It's not "bad", it's how things are intended to work.

    Being able to near freely spam our Dailies was a luxury that has spoiled us and created a warped view of how it should work for people who didn't realize this long before this point. The combination of not knowing how to gear, build characters and sub-optimal experience with Powers at this time won't do it justice yet but Dailies can and should equal approx 1/5 of your total DPS with a Single Use, equivalently.

    Unloading an optimal Daily on a Boss will be what causes the large chunks of HP to vanish now, making their use actually mean something.

    I understand we're not going to be spamming them anymore. I'm not basing my judgement on this. But, with the current AP build rate I'm experiencing, my daily isn't even available every time I fight a boss. It's not a matter of tactical decision for use when I never have it to decide on.
    Something I do on Preview while dedicated players handle individual statistic logging is to go over all Powers and Classes to ensure everything is functional at all Level ranges. If everything comes back reasonable, adjusting for any current bugs then I move on, if something does not, I report it.

    Given your conditions, even in a relatively poorly optimized setup you should be managing a Daily every 3-4 mins within a dungeon environment.

    Not everything Rogue is working as intended right now (like literally every other Class) so even that is a lowball estimate.
    Which is precisely why I brought it to this thread to mention .... Imagine that.
  • aymed#4611
    aymed#4611 Member Posts: 7 Arc User
    I just had an Idea. Its just that so if you think of doing sth in that direction pls ask Janne first.
    What if Stealth would reduce cooldowns of powers used in it and reduce there dmg but make the next power used after that deal higher Dmg? You could also shuffle that around. Just to make stealth more impactful and make the gameplay more fluend and reward skill. You could also implement this as a passiv or a feat i guess
  • demonmonger
    demonmonger Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,350 Arc User
    <font color=cyan>
    After extensive testing of assassin here is my conclusion.

    Shadow's Flurry
    This feat works fine for melee ranges powers, but when you use ranged powers the spawn just stands there and does not engage target. I would choose this over the current execution feat.

    Execution
    This feat activates at 20% enemy health. It would be better to activate at 50% remaining enemy health. Why? As of now there is only a 5% chance that it works, and a 5% chance at 20% life means you wont hardly ever see this feat work. Then when it does it's only 10k damage. In groups this will never work, maybe once or twice on a boss. Increase the % change of activation to 50% at 20% life or 20% chance at 50% life.

    Assassinate
    This encounter is semi ranged like lashing blade. Works great with vorpal.

    Gloaming cut
    This at will has been reduced to next to useless... the damage is far too weak now for the activation time.

    Might as well use deft strike, lashing blade, assassinate as encounters.

    Deft to avoid attacks and deal good damage.
    Lashing and assassinate for heavy damage.

    Use insignia bonuses to gain life.
    Use companion to gain life.
    Use high stamina recharge to avoid heavy attacks.

    Nothing like mod 15...
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
  • demonmonger
    demonmonger Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,350 Arc User
    Oh and I have no problem filling my ap for daily powers rapidly....
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
  • shadoewrayth
    shadoewrayth Member Posts: 178 Arc User
    Started new rogue to test features. Hateful Knives (Daily), Blade Flurry & Path of the Blade (both encounters) are not on the powers tab. Further, Path of the Blade says it is an "Encounter (Paragon)", yet I received it at 8th level.
  • blur#5900
    blur#5900 Member Posts: 490 Arc User

    Oh and I have no problem filling my ap for daily powers rapidly....

    Rapidly as in, how much? Using what powers?
    image
  • aymed#4611
    aymed#4611 Member Posts: 7 Arc User
    And while we are at balancing why do we tr not have any fireball or combo attack with flames? its really upsetting that SW has sth like that and we dont pls put it in instead of lashing blade
  • anjo#8313
    anjo#8313 Member Posts: 29 Arc User
    > @tgwolf said:
    > I know you specifically want us to quit using dailies, but in an hour of running undermountain content today I was able to fill my AP guage and use my daily 3 times. I'm using a frankenslotted 10kish level 72 so far. Not super high end, I know, but think about it. That averages out to using my daily once, possibly twice, in an entire dungeon. I wasn't even able to fill it for use once every mission.
    >
    > is really that bad :o
    >
    > It's not "bad", it's how things are intended to work.
    >
    > Being able to near freely spam our Dailies was a luxury that has spoiled us and created a warped view of how it should work for people who didn't realize this long before this point. The combination of not knowing how to gear, build characters and sub-optimal experience with Powers at this time won't do it justice yet but Dailies can and should equal approx 1/5 of your total DPS with a Single Use, equivalently.
    >
    > Unloading an optimal Daily on a Boss will be what causes the large chunks of HP to vanish now, making their use actually mean something.

    20sec cd with 3 encounters and your atwills doing 1/6 of your pet dmg id not fun. Other games have this way but offers you tons of spells
  • anjo#8313
    anjo#8313 Member Posts: 29 Arc User

    Oh and I have no problem filling my ap for daily powers rapidly....

    Tell us how you did it
  • artifleur
    artifleur Member Posts: 642 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    - Master of Shadows : The feat is strong but the tooltip is unclear and, as far as I can tell, all wrong. Passive stealth drain isn't reduced at all and stealth regeneration is increased by 100%, not 50%.

    - Tenacious Concealment : 10% less stealth loss from damage instead of 100%, is it a typo? the 5% extra stealth regen is either not working or too small to be noticeable.

    - Sneak Attack : Not sure how the +10% cooldown rate in stealth is supposed to work. Does it apply to encounters you use while in stealth or does it increase the rate of all encounters currently recharging as long as you remain in stealth. I've tried both but couldn't see a difference probably because 10% is much too small. I'd suggest to begin with at least 50% and adjust it later if necessary.

    - Oppressive Darkness : It only works with the very first hit of Smoke Bomb and Path of the Blade. It's probably intentionnal but the damage done by Oppressive Darkness is so small that I'd suggest enabling for each hit to try and make it worthwhile.

    - Toxic Blades : Shows 4 stacks when at 5. Smoke Bomb multi-procs it but not Path of the Blade.

    - Back Alley Tactics : Varies between +10% and -100% instead of +10% and +0%.

    - Hidden Attacks : Doesn't reduce passive stealth drain at all. Stealth lasts 6 seconds with or without it.

    - Dagger Threat : Gives 5% extra damage instead of 7.5%.

  • thefabricant
    thefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    Here is what combat on M16 Rogue currently looks like:


    Rogue needs a top end Single Target damage reduction.
  • thefabricant
    thefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User
    Assassinate's damage bonus works regardless of which side of the enemy you are on, even outside of stealth