@asterdahl is Commanders Strike effect "target takes +5% phys DMG" supposed to be party-wide?
That's correct. Though it's worth noting that any similar effects on other classes do not stack and will override one another, so only one party member needs to run this at a time, or you will want to coordinate your cooldowns.
> @asterdahl said: > Up until now, I have enjoyed the versatility of playing a gf--I could be a buffer, a tank, a dps'r. Clearly we weren't king tank (op's had that job), and we weren't king dpser (though solo target we were near the top), we may have been king buffer (although that would be shared with hr buffers/ templocks/mof). > > Along comes the new mod! > > Well, right from the start, buffer is no longer available. So 1/3 of our versatility gone. > > DPS? I don't think so, specially since gf has to take 3 defensive pet abilities even when dps, and these feat choices? Yikes. I see the gf as probably about 5th or 6th on the dps list choice, maybe lower. So 2/3 of our versatility gone. > > So now all we are left with is TANK. Well, maybe it won't be so bad, we can build our movement up so we can have fun positioning ourselves around the mobs and grabbing aggro before....oh wait, NO MOVEMENT. So really gf is now just a combat dummy the party drags along, with probably the same movement speed as said combat dummy. I'm not even going to get into the threat generation abilities as they seem to be broken. > > Can we get a change class token? > > > > > > Hello! I'm sorry you're not having a good time with fighter right now. I am confused about your comment on the companion powers though—every class has the same companion power slots. > > In regards to fighter's position relative to DPS and other tanks, I assure you, it will absolutely be competitive in both roles in the next few weeks. The final damage tuning for all the classes has yet to happen, since we're still making large adjustments to feats and some other powers, as well as bugfixes, the numbers are not nearly in their final positions. > > I hope you continue to watch the changes over the next few weeks. Next week should see some functional changes that should increase viability for DPS, and then in the following weeks we'll be honing in on the final balance numbers. We'll also continue to make adjustments after the module goes live. We're in a much better position now to make adjustments based on how we see the classes trending.
Hey, I've tested it last night. My Gwf have 2 def slots 2 off and 1 uty slot with every comp
Indeed they are different, Wizard has 3 Offense and 1 Defense slot on both its DPS paths. On Fighter the Tank path 'and' the DPS path have 3 Defense and 1 Offense slots.
At the very least, I'd suggest rolling back the tank spec damage penalty for atwills, maybe even add a Riposte mechanic where blocking attacks gives you a short duration of bonus atwill damage- not enough to make them hit like Encounters, obviously, but enough to constitute a damage increase proportional to the amount of time you expect us to spend blocking and encourage us to stop blocking to get a hit in.
On the topic, given that tanks spend less of their time attacking (as it's generally our job to make the healer's life easier by blocking a hit, even with Encounters off cooldown, rather than to keep attacking unless we're actively losing threat), is the damage penalty even needed at all? We're not generally going to outdps the dps in our groups, since we'll be in front of the mobs(no consistent Combat Advantage, less incentive to gear for it), we won't be chasing offensive stats as hard due to needing to balance them with defensive ones, and we have less offensive uptime due to blocking when the dps is attacking.
(post isn't showing up in Stats/mechanics, dunno why, giving it a shot over here)
Moved this over from the Stats and mechanics thread, but the Riposte mechanic sounds awesome.
Please consider the Riposte/counter attack mechanic for the Dreadnought path as well as the Vanguard path.
For the effect, I'd suggest something like "your At-wills deal 50 magnitude extra damage for 5 seconds after Guarding an attack".
If the dev team is worried about people hiding behind their shield all the time, then make the duration 3-4 seconds start after dropping shield and make it so the effect cannot be refreshed until after the effect expires (ie, you need to run out the 3-4 second duration, then shield another hit).
While I know it was considered for tank specs, I think it would work great on the Dreadnought path due to fitting with the theme of the Fighter class: the martial class that had to rely on awareness and thinking rather than brute force (GWF) or godly powers (OP). Having a mechanic that rewards you for patiently watching for and analyzing enemy attacks fits.
Seeing as the original post was to put it on all tank classes, I hope that should this effect be placed on the other tanks, then there would be some differentiation between the versions of Riposte. This is to give the classes uniqueness in mechanics.
For example, if you gave it to Paladin, you could name it "Wrath of the Gods", give the Paladin the At-will boost as with Riposte, +5000 Defense under the effect, and give the Paladin +5% extra damage for (insert duration here) if the attacker was Undead/Vampire/Demonic (to give a nod to the source material of Paladins being great of vanquishing the "unholy").
On the topic of HR damage, and cool down reductions on other classes. Noworries and I are discussing the differences of the classes, and will be working to make sure they are comparable in terms of DPS. If those large scale cool down reductions stay, there will be changes as needed on other classes to ensure DPS is balanced.
Please don't nerf the Ranger's base damage or cooldown reductions. If Ranger is supposed to differentiate itself by being the fast paced agile glass cannon, then trying to make it play like a slower paced class (ie, Fighter) will not be fun.
And yes, I know this is the Fighter feedback thread.
Please don't nerf classes just so everyone is equally dealing low damage (coughcoughwarlockcoughcough). While balanced, it's not fun.
I'd also hope noworries opts to buff the weaker classes to around the level of the strongest classes rather than the other way around...
On the topic of the riposte mechanic, ultimately, that is how vengeance works for the Dreadnought, you can block attacks to fill your vengeance meter, and only need to use Seethe to fill it in group play. I understand the concerns about the damage reduction. That being said, I'm not sure if I addressed this in this thread or another, but before making adjustments I am still waiting to see how things pan out as everyone gets more used to the mechanics of their classes, and as fixes for the snap aggro powers and the slight threat buff go live this week.
You shouldn't need to be blocking nonstop on any tank. Healing right now is very strong, so you should be able to be healed fine even without blocking in most situations. Block can be used more discerningly, for big attacks and during big pulls. In those situations, you're probably going to lose a large amount of stamina quickly, and have to lower your guard anyway, using it as an off and on sort of mitigation layer between heals.
One element of challenge now for tanks will be deciding whether they need to be blocking or attacking to keep maintaining their position on the enemy's aggro, and that's why we've added the new threat gauge to the party list, if you see any orange party members, you know they're coming up behind you. (For those colorblind players, the bars also fill and empty.)
We know it's a little too hard to old aggro in some cases right now, and the snap aggro powers are bugged, so give it another shot as more and more changes come in.
With all of that aside, I am watching all of the tank classes' damage, seeing where they fall relative to the DPS in our playtests. We've seen them pull decent numbers despite the reduction, but it depends on how you're playing. In the end, we're looking for tank DPS to run somewhere around for 70% of a similarly geared and skilled DPS in most situations. The exact amount of damage reduction to tanks will get adjusted based on how far from the mark they end up being.
That may mean that they don't need a damage reduction at all. If that turns out to be the case, I'll absolutely make the change. That will come over the next few weeks as we continue to finalize everyone's DPS values.
Finally, on the topic of class damage and whether we nerf or buff it. We have a rough target for where we want people to be in terms of how long the average encounter takes. We will nerf and buff classes based on that target, and also continue to adjust enemy difficulty. Since we're only on preview, we're not going to be too obsessive about avoiding nerfs, otherwise the final rounds of balancing are going to not get done in time. That being said, we're not looking to make fights tremendously slow, so many of the lower DPS will move up. There are probably some things that will get nerfed though.
Some feedback about daily power [Second wind]. It might be too strong.
This power now in m16 is super useful. It gives you both sustain (resistance to harassing damage) and bonus 20% to max HP wich also cause increase of shield stamina (what in other words means resistance to burst damage).
But having unlimited healing based on damage dealt can cause some troubles with balance between fighter and other classes. At the video below at 4m 3s you can see that fighter healed himself on 80+k with [Bull charge] being under effect of [Second wind]. He probably would heal himself even more if he would had lower health.
Of course many backstage interactions between different stats/skills/mechanics etc are still in development. But as we know in m16 developers want to move away from mechanics which can instantly restore full health. And current mechanic of [Second wind] lets to dd fighters to do exactly this.
So, my suggestion is to limit part of healing of [Second wind] which is based on damage dealt. It should let to fighter to have more sustain but it should not replace healer. For example: -You can't restore more than 5% of max HP per every hit. -Or you can't restore more than 5-10% of max HP per second. -Or you can't restore more than 40-50% of max HP by this effect.
Also I should say that unlimited mechanics aren't good overall because players very fast find ways how to abuse them. In PvP (both and in PvE) some builds of fighters can get too much advantage from this mechanic what probably will cause issues with balance. So at least from the respect to players for other classes I think that [Second wind] should be tuned a bit to avoid future issues.
Thanks for the feedback! I agree that Second Wind is a bit too strong right now, and some adjustments will be forthcoming. I'm not terribly concerned about the impact on healers, as once ITF is fixed, you shouldn't have access to Second Wind all that often, but it is just a bit too strong in general, especially in PvP.
> @asterdahl said: > @asterdahl is Commanders Strike effect "target takes +5% phys DMG" supposed to be party-wide? > > > That's correct. Though it's worth noting that any similar effects on other classes do not stack and will override one another, so only one party member needs to run this at a time, or you will want to coordinate your cooldowns.
Out of curiosity, what are the "similar effects" from other classes? I have never tried any other class, and do not intend to 😂 Does this cancelling also affect artifacts/companion debuffs?
Доброго дня. Я не знаю не одного из латинских наречий, поэтому пишу через гугл переводчик, в связи с этим прошу прощения за неправильную пунктуацию и грамматику.
Перед своим постом хочу отметить момент, что нынешняя ситуация когда топовые данжи пробегаю почти любой пачкой за 15-20 минут действительно нереалистична. И полностью поддерживаю решение о уменьшении бафов. Но то что я вижу на тестовом сервере, это всеобщее единообразие без возможности придумать что-то своё. Теперь про сам класс танка. Новая механика класса совершенно противоположна нынешней, из динамичного и подвижного класса вы почему-то решили сделать сидящего персонажа. Убирать возможность дальней соло агры с таб для меня остаётся непонятным. Я играю танком уже 5 лет: играл и классическим танком, и бафером-танком и полу-бафером/полу-ДД, а новшество ставит меня в тупик. Нет ни агры, не подвижности. Танки как востребованные персонажи появились в игре только когда умение "рыцарская доблесть" стала работать постоянно. не боитесь ли вы, что сейчас убрав бафы, агр, и отменив своё прошлое решение вы не убиваете класс? Даже единственные бафающие умения "призыв в битву" и "удар командира" были отобраны у танка (я не трогаю тему дд- танков - это отдельный класс и меня он не интересует)
С уважением, игрок Рус
Good day. I don’t know one of the Latin dialects, so I’m writing through Google translator, in this regard, I apologize for the wrong punctuation and grammar.
Before my post I want to note the moment that the current situation when the top dungeons run through almost any pack in 15-20 minutes is really unrealistic. And fully support the decision to reduce buffs. But what I see on the test server is universal uniformity without the ability to come up with something different. Now, about the tank class itself. New class mechanics are completely opposite to the current, for some reason, you decided to make a seated character out of a dynamic and mobile class. To remove the possibility of far away Agra solos with tabs remains incomprehensible to me. I have been playing with a tank for 5 years: I played with a classic tank, with a buffer tank and a semi-buffer / semi-DD, and innovation puts me at a dead end. There is no agra, no mobility. Tanks as popular characters appeared in the game only when the skill of "knightly prowess" began to work constantly. Are you afraid that by removing the buffs, arg, and by canceling your past decision you are not killing the class? Even the only buff skills called "call to battle" and "strike by the commander" were taken from the tank. (I do not touch the topic of dd-tanks - this is a separate class and it does not interest me)
Some feedback about daily power [Second wind]. It might be too strong.
This power now in m16 is super useful. It gives you both sustain (resistance to harassing damage) and bonus 20% to max HP wich also cause increase of shield stamina (what in other words means resistance to burst damage).
But having unlimited healing based on damage dealt can cause some troubles with balance between fighter and other classes. At the video below at 4m 3s you can see that fighter healed himself on 80+k with [Bull charge] being under effect of [Second wind]. He probably would heal himself even more if he would had lower health.
Of course many backstage interactions between different stats/skills/mechanics etc are still in development. But as we know in m16 developers want to move away from mechanics which can instantly restore full health. And current mechanic of [Second wind] lets to dd fighters to do exactly this.
So, my suggestion is to limit part of healing of [Second wind] which is based on damage dealt. It should let to fighter to have more sustain but it should not replace healer. For example: -You can't restore more than 5% of max HP per every hit. -Or you can't restore more than 5-10% of max HP per second. -Or you can't restore more than 40-50% of max HP by this effect.
Also I should say that unlimited mechanics aren't good overall because players very fast find ways how to abuse them. In PvP (both and in PvE) some builds of fighters can get too much advantage from this mechanic what probably will cause issues with balance. So at least from the respect to players for other classes I think that [Second wind] should be tuned a bit to avoid future issues.
Thanks for the feedback! I agree that Second Wind is a bit too strong right now, and some adjustments will be forthcoming. I'm not terribly concerned about the impact on healers, as once ITF is fixed, you shouldn't have access to Second Wind all that often, but it is just a bit too strong in general, especially in PvP.
nerf it on pvp , but in PVE? no way ...how many times a Fighter is gonna be able to cast Second wind?
using Second wind means that u dont use your other Daily and for some healing that maybe not even required (if the healer was distracted) instead of using a more usefull Daily.
In mod 16 Dailys are huge CDs
2
dread4moorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,154Arc User
> @dolrey said: > Some feedback about daily power [Second wind]. It might be too strong. > > > > This power now in m16 is super useful. It gives you both sustain (resistance to harassing damage) and bonus 20% to max HP wich also cause increase of shield stamina (what in other words means resistance to burst damage). > > But having unlimited healing based on damage dealt can cause some troubles with balance between fighter and other classes. At the video below at 4m 3s you can see that fighter healed himself on 80+k with [Bull charge] being under effect of [Second wind]. > > > > Of course many backstage interactions between different stats/skills/mechanics etc are still in development. But as we know in m16 developers want to move away from mechanics which can instantly restore full health. And current mechanic of [Second wind] lets to dd fighters to do exactly this. > > So, my suggestion is to limit part of healing of [Second wind] which is based on damage dealt. For example: > -You can't restore more than 5% of max HP per every hit. > -Or you can't restore more than 5-10% of max HP per second. > -Or you can't restore more than 40-50% of max HP by this effect. > > Also I should say that unlimited mechanics aren't good overall because players very fast find ways how to abuse them. In PvP (both and in PvE) some builds of fighters can get too much advantage from this mechanic what probably will cause issues with balance. So at least from the respect to players for other classes I think that [Second wind] should be tuned a bit to avoid future issues.
Everything you said is true from the Dreadnaught perspective. But the DPS-neutered Vanguard does not share in that overpowered description. How about de-coupling it from damage entirely, atleast for the Vanguard?
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
> Some feedback about daily power [Second wind]. It might be too strong.
>
>
>
> This power now in m16 is super useful. It gives you both sustain (resistance to harassing damage) and bonus 20% to max HP wich also cause increase of shield stamina (what in other words means resistance to burst damage).
>
> But having unlimited healing based on damage dealt can cause some troubles with balance between fighter and other classes. At the video below at 4m 3s you can see that fighter healed himself on 80+k with [Bull charge] being under effect of [Second wind].
>
>
>
> Of course many backstage interactions between different stats/skills/mechanics etc are still in development. But as we know in m16 developers want to move away from mechanics which can instantly restore full health. And current mechanic of [Second wind] lets to dd fighters to do exactly this.
>
> So, my suggestion is to limit part of healing of [Second wind] which is based on damage dealt. For example:
> -You can't restore more than 5% of max HP per every hit.
> -Or you can't restore more than 5-10% of max HP per second.
> -Or you can't restore more than 40-50% of max HP by this effect.
>
> Also I should say that unlimited mechanics aren't good overall because players very fast find ways how to abuse them. In PvP (both and in PvE) some builds of fighters can get too much advantage from this mechanic what probably will cause issues with balance. So at least from the respect to players for other classes I think that [Second wind] should be tuned a bit to avoid future issues.
Everything you said is true from the Dreadnaught perspective.
But the DPS-neutered Vanguard does not share in that overpowered description.
How about de-coupling it from damage entirely, atleast for the Vanguard?
That, or just scale the damage:health ratio differently between the two paths to ensure that the DPS kit doesn't get more sustain from it than the tank does. I wouldn't be surprised if a blanket healing reduction ended up being applied in PvP when all is said and done, so making sure that Second Wind was included in that reduction, plus removing the "unlimited" factor with the incoming fix to ITF, might be enough on their own.
ok i was sooooo happy when i heard defined rolls where being established. untill i went and tested the GF tanking ability. there is none you took away taunt and dmg from enforced threat.... now it "puts you at top of threat list" is that a joke? that lasts about 1 second before dps pulls everything to them. pretty much gf is no a single target tank good for using anvil on a boss to hold him but how often do you fight a boss without adds? and with no way to grab agro and get all focus on tank then dps is on their own. TANKS role is simple crowd control//take the hits while dps kills and healer keeps you standing but as a single target tank running dungeons you are useless. i tested this many many times after hitting 80 and on last steps of campaign i had friends gather mobs not attack and run by when i used enforced threat they should of attacked me but they just kept going. i am very frustrated i dont mind all the changes to boons / feats ect its interesting but my GF on live at 70 can tank most bosses+ adds and never allow dps to be in serious threat the test GF at 80 can barely hold agro on 1 target while rest of mobs do whatever they want. defining roles is great redoing the boons/feats ect is ok wasted alot of time and money but ok whatever but if YOU ARE GOING TO DEFINE ROLES PLEASE UNDERSTAND WHAT THE ROLES ARE FIRST!!!!!! tanks dont need to kill or solo they are group bound they only need to be able to control mobs hold agro and take a beating and in new system it is not possible with no taunt/ single target threat generation / and dig in which is a joke (im safe but no agro so group suffers) please look into this and fix it so as a tank i can do my job thanks. i know it wont change or even matter because cryptic is going to do what they feel is right to generate income (not make game better for us as player) but i had to say my piece anyway
Generaly I like changes, it special finaly can play as dps. Hope dps will equal to other dps classes. Less feats its okay I like so far. Also nice few new visuals. Tab mechanic looks strange but I guess early to judge right now.
ok i was sooooo happy when i heard defined rolls where being established. untill i went and tested the GF tanking ability. there is none you took away taunt and dmg from enforced threat.... now it "puts you at top of threat list" is that a joke? that lasts about 1 second before dps pulls everything to them. pretty much gf is no a single target tank good for using anvil on a boss to hold him but how often do you fight a boss without adds? and with no way to grab agro and get all focus on tank then dps is on their own. TANKS role is simple crowd control//take the hits while dps kills and healer keeps you standing but as a single target tank running dungeons you are useless. i tested this many many times after hitting 80 and on last steps of campaign i had friends gather mobs not attack and run by when i used enforced threat they should of attacked me but they just kept going. i am very frustrated i dont mind all the changes to boons / feats ect its interesting but my GF on live at 70 can tank most bosses+ adds and never allow dps to be in serious threat the test GF at 80 can barely hold agro on 1 target while rest of mobs do whatever they want. defining roles is great redoing the boons/feats ect is ok wasted alot of time and money but ok whatever but if YOU ARE GOING TO DEFINE ROLES PLEASE UNDERSTAND WHAT THE ROLES ARE FIRST!!!!!! tanks dont need to kill or solo they are group bound they only need to be able to control mobs hold agro and take a beating and in new system it is not possible with no taunt/ single target threat generation / and dig in which is a joke (im safe but no agro so group suffers) please look into this and fix it so as a tank i can do my job thanks. i know it wont change or even matter because cryptic is going to do what they feel is right to generate income (not make game better for us as player) but i had to say my piece anyway
A tank that can't solo is no fun. Tanks should be able to solo but, like healers, expect to be a little slower but a little safer while doing so; that's the tradeoff.
That said, I think there's some validity to concerns about the relative dearth of AoE on the Vanguard. Linebreaker is great fun, but it's acquired pretty late. I'm wondering if feat tuning can help address this? Perhaps some of the feats that create a synergy between two specific powers, particularly when at-wills are involved(since we only get two) could have a secondary, conceptually linked effect that is active when the recipient power isn't slotted. Using Cleaving Bull as an example, adding the following effect when triggered: "When Cleave is not slotted, your at-will powers inflict damage on enemies near your target" (I don't have access to game right now, so I don't have numbers like radius or magnitude, but I'm picturing something comparable to an unbuffed Cleave hit with a 90-120 degree arc centered on the target, adjusted for the speed of the powers in question), essentially redefining the purpose of the feat " to "Bull Charge buffs your at-will AoE damage," so that the feat is reliant on you having one particular power slotted, rather than two.
Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of using feats to create power synergies, I just don't like the idea of your feat choices potentially locking up both of your at-will slots and 2/3 of your Encounter slots.
I've given a fair bit of thought to this; because the broader effect is contingent on the more powerful effect not being available, it's not actually increasing the power of the feat at all, simply creating less of a gulf between the character's power level when they can do what they want vs. when circumstances call for one or more specific powers. It makes it harder to make "wrong choices" and more about choosing how to focus your character's aptitudes. The feat for the Dreadnaught that makes Brazen Slash buff Heavy Slash is particularly worrisome, since by its nature it locks up both of your at-will slots. Again, I'd propose a concept nudge from "Brazen Slash buffs Heavy Slash" to "Brazen Slash encourages mixing up your at-will powers," with the main function unchanged, but perhaps offering bonus damage to your next hit from a different at-will after finishing a Brazen Slash combo when Heavy Slash isn't slotted. Perhaps renaming the feat to "Brazen Aggression," to reflect that functionality, as well?
A tank that can't solo is no fun. Tanks should be able to solo but, like healers, expect to be a little slower but a little safer while doing so; that's the tradeoff.
Which is why we have a dps build to solo with. Threat is definitely an issue atm, If the devs do not want tanks to be doing high dmg then the equation for threat for tanks needs to be cranked up.
I've asked this before and haven't seen any answer.. maybe im not looking hard enough.
What on earth is determination...vanguard feat - determined defense (I will ignore the bad spelling of defence) - determination no longer grants an increase to damage but instead grants a decrease to damage taken by 40% duration 10sec.....
Am i being blind cos I just can't find the mention of determination anywhere in my GF vanguard build, I mean if it's lurking in the background somewhere granting me an increase in damage i'd like to know how I build it.......
I've asked this before and haven't seen any answer.. maybe im not looking hard enough.
What on earth is determination...vanguard feat - determined defense (I will ignore the bad spelling of defence) - determination no longer grants an increase to damage but instead grants a decrease to damage taken by 40% duration 10sec.....
Am i being blind cos I just can't find the mention of determination anywhere in my GF vanguard build, I mean if it's lurking in the background somewhere granting me an increase in damage i'd like to know how I build it.......
Someone guide me please...........
It's the last universal daily attack. The icon is in between Second Wind and Bladed Rampart.
I've asked this before and haven't seen any answer.. maybe im not looking hard enough.
What on earth is determination...vanguard feat - determined defense (I will ignore the bad spelling of defence) - determination no longer grants an increase to damage but instead grants a decrease to damage taken by 40% duration 10sec.....
Am i being blind cos I just can't find the mention of determination anywhere in my GF vanguard build, I mean if it's lurking in the background somewhere granting me an increase in damage i'd like to know how I build it.......
Someone guide me please...........
It's the last universal daily attack. The icon is in between Second Wind and Bladed Rampart.
Companion powers--3 defensive, 1 offensive, 1utility for the fighter. Barbarian, 2 offensive, 2 defensive, 1 utility. See? Not all classes have the same types, fighters are forced to take 3 defensive even when you are trying to play dps fighter, which you would want OFFENSE heavy.
I get stuck in Dig In and have to mash keyboard uncontrollably to get out. (I think the key is to cast at-will, then block then tab). When in this stuck state Im able to spam encounters and dailies but they have no effect.
In addition (not a bug) : Dig In is the worst tanking mechanism I have seen in any game counting from the early 1980s
Elite Whaleboy
7
dread4moorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,154Arc User
ok i was sooooo happy when i heard defined rolls where being established. untill i went and tested the GF tanking ability. there is none you took away taunt and dmg from enforced threat.... now it "puts you at top of threat list" is that a joke? that lasts about 1 second before dps pulls everything to them. pretty much gf is no a single target tank good for using anvil on a boss to hold him but how often do you fight a boss without adds? and with no way to grab agro and get all focus on tank then dps is on their own. TANKS role is simple crowd control//take the hits while dps kills and healer keeps you standing ...
Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of using feats to create power synergies, I just don't like the idea of your feat choices potentially locking up both of your at-will slots and 2/3 of your Encounter slots.
Yep. Regarding feat/at-will/encounter linking...
Great idea, in principle. But it was taken to the extreme.
We have very limited useful feats. many of those feats require "use [A] to augment [B]". So if you take 2 of those "linked feats" you have zero choices. Both at-wills and often 1 or 2 encounters are forced upon you or the feats are worthless.
Maybe scale the "linked feats" back a bit, @asterdahl . One per paragon is more then enough. More of "this feat boosts the effectiveness of [C]", please.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
first attack from enemy on CN disable block and as i can't block and there are 3 enemies i die in blink of an eye
I haven't tested other dungeons but i presume they are still not fixed. I'm not top player or anything but even with my current gear i should be able to withstand quite few attacks even without blocking (tank btw) atleast on dungeons including CN and below, what i presume is one of objectives of this mod.
Why not take a look at 5e Cavalier Fighter mechanics for inspiration for the Vanguard TAB-mechanic?
"Unwavering Mark Starting at 3rd level, you can menace your foes, foiling their attacks and punishing them for harming others. When you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack, you can mark the creature until the end of your next turn. This effect ends early if you are incapacitated or you die, or if someone else marks the creature.
While it is within 5 feet of you, a creature marked by you has disadvantage on any attack roll that doesn't target you.
In addition, if a creature marked by you deals damage to anyone other than you, you can make a special melee weapon attack against the marked creature as a bonus action on your next turn. You have advantage on the attack roll, and if it hits, the attack's weapon deals extra damage to the target equal to half your fighter level.
Regardless of the number of creatures you mark, you can make this special attack a number of times equal to your Strength modifier (a minimum of once), and you regain all expended uses of it when you finish a long rest."
Get rid of the lockdown in current version of Dig In, make mobs loose CA inside of 5ft from fighter, make Fighter absorb some amount of DMG dealt to party members inside circle. Just an example, but anything would be better and feel more fluent in combat than current Dig In version
When used by a Vanguard, Second Wind's initial heal is smaller than the tooltip lists; with a base health of 150k, for example, it should be buffing and healing by 30k, but it's landing around 25k. Shield Slam (and Frontline Surge, but I hear that's getting replaced) is very unresponsibe, especially when coming out of block. Often have to try several times to use it.
Vanguard still feels very unrewarding; aside from possible bug with Second Wind, the healing from damage done seems very small for a daily. Soloing is slow, and some heroic events become unwinnable due to low damage. Almost all of the Vanguard's aoe encounters are low magnitude, and very prone to whiffing due to mobs shuffling around just within the cast time. Please consider turning Linebreaker's area from a cone to a burst, and Piercing Thrust's from a cone to a cylinder the width of the base of the cone.
Alternatively, please consider reducing the frequency and speed of mob in-combat maneuvering. Yes, it's an action game, but the speed at which mobs swarm around you makes it very hard to use certain kinds of AoE powers- it's even worse on a tank, since you are the epicenter of the maneuvering, so it often feels like the very beginning of a fight is the only time you have any hope of landing any of your directional AoEs.
Alternative suggestion: remodel some more of the Fighter powers based on Battlemaster maneuvers from 5e.
Since Piercing Thrust is no longer a lunge, the "cone emanating from the back of a single target" paradigm is no longer essential to it; perhaps redesign it as Sweeping Strike, an arc centered on where you are facing your camera, (a burst centered on your target might be more true to the wording of the specific maneuver, but that also exists in a turn-based abstraction that is obviously not present here) Prepared Pierce becomes Brazen Sweep and you're good to go(honestly, the old 1handed animation for Weapon Master's Strike is PERFECT for this).
I apologize if I seem to be harping on this, but I want to love the Fighter, and right now it often feels like the way some of the powers are coded makes it more effort than it's worth to use as intended.
Companion powers--3 defensive, 1 offensive, 1utility for the fighter. Barbarian, 2 offensive, 2 defensive, 1 utility. See? Not all classes have the same types, fighters are forced to take 3 defensive even when you are trying to play dps fighter, which you would want OFFENSE heavy.
A tank that can't solo is no fun. Tanks should be able to solo but, like healers, expect to be a little slower but a little safer while doing so; that's the tradeoff.
Which is why we have a dps build to solo with. Threat is definitely an issue atm, If the devs do not want tanks to be doing high dmg then the equation for threat for tanks needs to be cranked up.
Different powers, different playstyle, at least in theory. Ideally there'd be something I enjoyed about Vanguard enough that I'd be okay with killing things a bit slower in order to keep it; that's how it is on Sentinel, and I don't think it's unreasonable to hope for the same, here.
Thing is, Vanguard doesn't even feel much crunchier than Dreadnought. Now, I know ITF's current AP generation is bugged, but even when I deliberately didn't use it, the damage difference was enough that, running Second Wind for emergencies, I've died more as a Vanguard than a Dreadnought, while deliberately running the same events.
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dread4moorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,154Arc User
edited March 2019
Been giving this a chance. Spent all day running every permutation of Vanguard possible to make it get and hold aggro. It's a struggle. Not a challege (which is fun). A struggle (which is not).
6 feat resets. Ran with almost every combination of tank powers, feated or not. Vanguard just isn't a good tank at present.
<font color="cyan">@asterdahl, please consider returning Knight's Valor to it's former description (full party protection and threat generation on hits). KV was not overpowered. And it was not a buff. So the arguments for the Mod16 redesign do not apply to KV. Even if every other power stays as-is on preview, restoring KV could easily change Vanguard from a subpar tank to the valuable party protector you envisioned.</font>
Post edited by dread4moor on
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
Spent all day running every permutation of Vanguard possible to make it get and hold aggro.
It's a struggle.
Not a challege (which is fun).
A struggle (which is not).
6 feat resets. Ran with almost every combination of tank powers, feated or not.
Vanguard just isn't a good tank at present.
@asterdahl, please consider returning Knight's Valor to it's former description (full party protection and threat generation on hits).
KV was not overpowered. And it was not a buff.
So the arguments for the Mod16 redesign do not apply to KV.
Even if every other power stays as-is on preview, restoring KV could easily change Vanguard from a subpar tank to the valuable party protector you envisioned.
Totally agree with it. KV was never overpowered. Even if you feel like it was - lower the damage taken to 30% but let as generate more aggro as we are tanking.
Thanks to mod16 changes, using KV 100% uptime will require skill and cooperation with healer since self healing is heavily nerfed.
Comments
That's correct. Though it's worth noting that any similar effects on other classes do not stack and will override one another, so only one party member needs to run this at a time, or you will want to coordinate your cooldowns.
> Up until now, I have enjoyed the versatility of playing a gf--I could be a buffer, a tank, a dps'r. Clearly we weren't king tank (op's had that job), and we weren't king dpser (though solo target we were near the top), we may have been king buffer (although that would be shared with hr buffers/ templocks/mof).
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> Along comes the new mod!
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> Well, right from the start, buffer is no longer available. So 1/3 of our versatility gone.
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> DPS? I don't think so, specially since gf has to take 3 defensive pet abilities even when dps, and these feat choices? Yikes. I see the gf as probably about 5th or 6th on the dps list choice, maybe lower. So 2/3 of our versatility gone.
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> So now all we are left with is TANK. Well, maybe it won't be so bad, we can build our movement up so we can have fun positioning ourselves around the mobs and grabbing aggro before....oh wait, NO MOVEMENT. So really gf is now just a combat dummy the party drags along, with probably the same movement speed as said combat dummy. I'm not even going to get into the threat generation abilities as they seem to be broken.
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> Can we get a change class token?
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> Hello! I'm sorry you're not having a good time with fighter right now. I am confused about your comment on the companion powers though—every class has the same companion power slots.
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> In regards to fighter's position relative to DPS and other tanks, I assure you, it will absolutely be competitive in both roles in the next few weeks. The final damage tuning for all the classes has yet to happen, since we're still making large adjustments to feats and some other powers, as well as bugfixes, the numbers are not nearly in their final positions.
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> I hope you continue to watch the changes over the next few weeks. Next week should see some functional changes that should increase viability for DPS, and then in the following weeks we'll be honing in on the final balance numbers. We'll also continue to make adjustments after the module goes live. We're in a much better position now to make adjustments based on how we see the classes trending.
Hey, I've tested it last night. My Gwf have 2 def slots 2 off and 1 uty slot with every comp
My DC have 2 off 2 uty 1 def
My GF have 3 def 1 off 1 uty
You shouldn't need to be blocking nonstop on any tank. Healing right now is very strong, so you should be able to be healed fine even without blocking in most situations. Block can be used more discerningly, for big attacks and during big pulls. In those situations, you're probably going to lose a large amount of stamina quickly, and have to lower your guard anyway, using it as an off and on sort of mitigation layer between heals.
One element of challenge now for tanks will be deciding whether they need to be blocking or attacking to keep maintaining their position on the enemy's aggro, and that's why we've added the new threat gauge to the party list, if you see any orange party members, you know they're coming up behind you. (For those colorblind players, the bars also fill and empty.)
We know it's a little too hard to old aggro in some cases right now, and the snap aggro powers are bugged, so give it another shot as more and more changes come in.
With all of that aside, I am watching all of the tank classes' damage, seeing where they fall relative to the DPS in our playtests. We've seen them pull decent numbers despite the reduction, but it depends on how you're playing. In the end, we're looking for tank DPS to run somewhere around for 70% of a similarly geared and skilled DPS in most situations. The exact amount of damage reduction to tanks will get adjusted based on how far from the mark they end up being.
That may mean that they don't need a damage reduction at all. If that turns out to be the case, I'll absolutely make the change. That will come over the next few weeks as we continue to finalize everyone's DPS values.
Finally, on the topic of class damage and whether we nerf or buff it. We have a rough target for where we want people to be in terms of how long the average encounter takes. We will nerf and buff classes based on that target, and also continue to adjust enemy difficulty. Since we're only on preview, we're not going to be too obsessive about avoiding nerfs, otherwise the final rounds of balancing are going to not get done in time. That being said, we're not looking to make fights tremendously slow, so many of the lower DPS will move up. There are probably some things that will get nerfed though.
> @asterdahl is Commanders Strike effect "target takes +5% phys DMG" supposed to be party-wide?
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> That's correct. Though it's worth noting that any similar effects on other classes do not stack and will override one another, so only one party member needs to run this at a time, or you will want to coordinate your cooldowns.
Out of curiosity, what are the "similar effects" from other classes? I have never tried any other class, and do not intend to 😂 Does this cancelling also affect artifacts/companion debuffs?
Я не знаю не одного из латинских наречий, поэтому пишу через гугл переводчик, в связи с этим прошу прощения за неправильную пунктуацию и грамматику.
Перед своим постом хочу отметить момент, что нынешняя ситуация когда топовые данжи пробегаю почти любой пачкой за 15-20 минут действительно нереалистична. И полностью поддерживаю решение о уменьшении бафов. Но то что я вижу на тестовом сервере, это всеобщее единообразие без возможности придумать что-то своё.
Теперь про сам класс танка.
Новая механика класса совершенно противоположна нынешней, из динамичного и подвижного класса вы почему-то решили сделать сидящего персонажа. Убирать возможность дальней соло агры с таб для меня остаётся непонятным.
Я играю танком уже 5 лет: играл и классическим танком, и бафером-танком и полу-бафером/полу-ДД, а новшество ставит меня в тупик. Нет ни агры, не подвижности.
Танки как востребованные персонажи появились в игре только когда умение "рыцарская доблесть" стала работать постоянно. не боитесь ли вы, что сейчас убрав бафы, агр, и отменив своё прошлое решение вы не убиваете класс? Даже единственные бафающие умения "призыв в битву" и "удар командира" были отобраны у танка
(я не трогаю тему дд- танков - это отдельный класс и меня он не интересует)
С уважением, игрок Рус
Good day.
I don’t know one of the Latin dialects, so I’m writing through Google translator, in this regard, I apologize for the wrong punctuation and grammar.
Before my post I want to note the moment that the current situation when the top dungeons run through almost any pack in 15-20 minutes is really unrealistic. And fully support the decision to reduce buffs. But what I see on the test server is universal uniformity without the ability to come up with something different.
Now, about the tank class itself.
New class mechanics are completely opposite to the current, for some reason, you decided to make a seated character out of a dynamic and mobile class. To remove the possibility of far away Agra solos with tabs remains incomprehensible to me.
I have been playing with a tank for 5 years: I played with a classic tank, with a buffer tank and a semi-buffer / semi-DD, and innovation puts me at a dead end. There is no agra, no mobility.
Tanks as popular characters appeared in the game only when the skill of "knightly prowess" began to work constantly. Are you afraid that by removing the buffs, arg, and by canceling your past decision you are not killing the class? Even the only buff skills called "call to battle" and "strike by the commander" were taken from the tank.
(I do not touch the topic of dd-tanks - this is a separate class and it does not interest me)
Sincerely, the player Rus </ font>
using Second wind means that u dont use your other Daily and for some healing that maybe not even required (if the healer was distracted) instead of using a more usefull Daily.
In mod 16 Dailys are huge CDs
> Some feedback about daily power [Second wind]. It might be too strong.
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> This power now in m16 is super useful. It gives you both sustain (resistance to harassing damage) and bonus 20% to max HP wich also cause increase of shield stamina (what in other words means resistance to burst damage).
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> But having unlimited healing based on damage dealt can cause some troubles with balance between fighter and other classes. At the video below at 4m 3s you can see that fighter healed himself on 80+k with [Bull charge] being under effect of [Second wind].
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> Of course many backstage interactions between different stats/skills/mechanics etc are still in development. But as we know in m16 developers want to move away from mechanics which can instantly restore full health. And current mechanic of [Second wind] lets to dd fighters to do exactly this.
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> So, my suggestion is to limit part of healing of [Second wind] which is based on damage dealt. For example:
> -You can't restore more than 5% of max HP per every hit.
> -Or you can't restore more than 5-10% of max HP per second.
> -Or you can't restore more than 40-50% of max HP by this effect.
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> Also I should say that unlimited mechanics aren't good overall because players very fast find ways how to abuse them. In PvP (both and in PvE) some builds of fighters can get too much advantage from this mechanic what probably will cause issues with balance. So at least from the respect to players for other classes I think that [Second wind] should be tuned a bit to avoid future issues.
Everything you said is true from the Dreadnaught perspective.
But the DPS-neutered Vanguard does not share in that overpowered description.
How about de-coupling it from damage entirely, atleast for the Vanguard?
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
TANKS role is simple crowd control//take the hits while dps kills and healer keeps you standing but as a single target tank running dungeons you are useless. i tested this many many times after hitting 80 and on last steps of campaign i had friends gather mobs not attack and run by when i used enforced threat they should of attacked me but they just kept going. i am very frustrated i dont mind all the changes to boons / feats ect its interesting but my GF on live at 70 can tank most bosses+ adds and never allow dps to be in serious threat the test GF at 80 can barely hold agro on 1 target while rest of mobs do whatever they want. defining roles is great redoing the boons/feats ect is ok wasted alot of time and money but ok whatever but if YOU ARE GOING TO DEFINE ROLES PLEASE UNDERSTAND WHAT THE ROLES ARE FIRST!!!!!!
tanks dont need to kill or solo they are group bound they only need to be able to control mobs hold agro and take a beating and in new system it is not possible with no taunt/ single target threat generation / and dig in which is a joke (im safe but no agro so group suffers) please look into this and fix it so as a tank i can do my job thanks. i know it wont change or even matter because cryptic is going to do what they feel is right to generate income (not make game better for us as player) but i had to say my piece anyway
That said, I think there's some validity to concerns about the relative dearth of AoE on the Vanguard. Linebreaker is great fun, but it's acquired pretty late. I'm wondering if feat tuning can help address this? Perhaps some of the feats that create a synergy between two specific powers, particularly when at-wills are involved(since we only get two) could have a secondary, conceptually linked effect that is active when the recipient power isn't slotted.
Using Cleaving Bull as an example, adding the following effect when triggered: "When Cleave is not slotted, your at-will powers inflict damage on enemies near your target" (I don't have access to game right now, so I don't have numbers like radius or magnitude, but I'm picturing something comparable to an unbuffed Cleave hit with a 90-120 degree arc centered on the target, adjusted for the speed of the powers in question), essentially redefining the purpose of the feat " to "Bull Charge buffs your at-will AoE damage," so that the feat is reliant on you having one particular power slotted, rather than two.
Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of using feats to create power synergies, I just don't like the idea of your feat choices potentially locking up both of your at-will slots and 2/3 of your Encounter slots.
I've given a fair bit of thought to this; because the broader effect is contingent on the more powerful effect not being available, it's not actually increasing the power of the feat at all, simply creating less of a gulf between the character's power level when they can do what they want vs. when circumstances call for one or more specific powers. It makes it harder to make "wrong choices" and more about choosing how to focus your character's aptitudes. The feat for the Dreadnaught that makes Brazen Slash buff Heavy Slash is particularly worrisome, since by its nature it locks up both of your at-will slots. Again, I'd propose a concept nudge from "Brazen Slash buffs Heavy Slash" to "Brazen Slash encourages mixing up your at-will powers," with the main function unchanged, but perhaps offering bonus damage to your next hit from a different at-will after finishing a Brazen Slash combo when Heavy Slash isn't slotted. Perhaps renaming the feat to "Brazen Aggression," to reflect that functionality, as well?
Threat is definitely an issue atm, If the devs do not want tanks to be doing high dmg then the equation for threat for tanks needs to be cranked up.
What on earth is determination...vanguard feat - determined defense (I will ignore the bad spelling of defence) - determination no longer grants an increase to damage but instead grants a decrease to damage taken by 40% duration 10sec.....
Am i being blind cos I just can't find the mention of determination anywhere in my GF vanguard build, I mean if it's lurking in the background somewhere granting me an increase in damage i'd like to know how I build it.......
Someone guide me please...........
It's the last universal daily attack.
The icon is in between Second Wind and Bladed Rampart.
final hit in Rage Drake AoE attack makes charakter to stand up while in dig in state.
Anyway, thanks for the response Asterdahl
In addition (not a bug) : Dig In is the worst tanking mechanism I have seen in any game counting from the early 1980s
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
first attack from enemy on CN disable block and as i can't block and there are 3 enemies i die in blink of an eye
I haven't tested other dungeons but i presume they are still not fixed. I'm not top player or anything but even with my current gear i should be able to withstand quite few attacks even without blocking (tank btw) atleast on dungeons including CN and below, what i presume is one of objectives of this mod.
Why not take a look at 5e Cavalier Fighter mechanics for inspiration for the Vanguard TAB-mechanic?
"Unwavering Mark
Starting at 3rd level, you can menace your foes, foiling their attacks and punishing them for harming others. When you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack, you can mark the creature until the end of your next turn. This effect ends early if you are incapacitated or you die, or if someone else marks the creature.
While it is within 5 feet of you, a creature marked by you has disadvantage on any attack roll that doesn't target you.
In addition, if a creature marked by you deals damage to anyone other than you, you can make a special melee weapon attack against the marked creature as a bonus action on your next turn. You have advantage on the attack roll, and if it hits, the attack's weapon deals extra damage to the target equal to half your fighter level.
Regardless of the number of creatures you mark, you can make this special attack a number of times equal to your Strength modifier (a minimum of once), and you regain all expended uses of it when you finish a long rest."
Get rid of the lockdown in current version of Dig In, make mobs loose CA inside of 5ft from fighter, make Fighter absorb some amount of DMG dealt to party members inside circle. Just an example, but anything would be better and feel more fluent in combat than current Dig In version
https://tinytake.s3.amazonaws.com/pulse/slaver/attachments/10086710/TinyTake09-03-2019-11-41-51.mp4
When used by a Vanguard, Second Wind's initial heal is smaller than the tooltip lists; with a base health of 150k, for example, it should be buffing and healing by 30k, but it's landing around 25k.
Shield Slam (and Frontline Surge, but I hear that's getting replaced) is very unresponsibe, especially when coming out of block. Often have to try several times to use it.
Vanguard still feels very unrewarding; aside from possible bug with Second Wind, the healing from damage done seems very small for a daily.
Soloing is slow, and some heroic events become unwinnable due to low damage. Almost all of the Vanguard's aoe encounters are low magnitude, and very prone to whiffing due to mobs shuffling around just within the cast time. Please consider turning Linebreaker's area from a cone to a burst, and Piercing Thrust's from a cone to a cylinder the width of the base of the cone.
Alternatively, please consider reducing the frequency and speed of mob in-combat maneuvering. Yes, it's an action game, but the speed at which mobs swarm around you makes it very hard to use certain kinds of AoE powers- it's even worse on a tank, since you are the epicenter of the maneuvering, so it often feels like the very beginning of a fight is the only time you have any hope of landing any of your directional AoEs.
Alternative suggestion: remodel some more of the Fighter powers based on Battlemaster maneuvers from 5e.
Since Piercing Thrust is no longer a lunge, the "cone emanating from the back of a single target" paradigm is no longer essential to it; perhaps redesign it as Sweeping Strike, an arc centered on where you are facing your camera, (a burst centered on your target might be more true to the wording of the specific maneuver, but that also exists in a turn-based abstraction that is obviously not present here) Prepared Pierce becomes Brazen Sweep and you're good to go(honestly, the old 1handed animation for Weapon Master's Strike is PERFECT for this).
I apologize if I seem to be harping on this, but I want to love the Fighter, and right now it often feels like the way some of the powers are coded makes it more effort than it's worth to use as intended.
Thing is, Vanguard doesn't even feel much crunchier than Dreadnought. Now, I know ITF's current AP generation is bugged, but even when I deliberately didn't use it, the damage difference was enough that, running Second Wind for emergencies, I've died more as a Vanguard than a Dreadnought, while deliberately running the same events.
Spent all day running every permutation of Vanguard possible to make it get and hold aggro.
It's a struggle.
Not a challege (which is fun).
A struggle (which is not).
6 feat resets. Ran with almost every combination of tank powers, feated or not.
Vanguard just isn't a good tank at present.
<font color="cyan">@asterdahl, please consider returning Knight's Valor to it's former description (full party protection and threat generation on hits).
KV was not overpowered. And it was not a buff.
So the arguments for the Mod16 redesign do not apply to KV.
Even if every other power stays as-is on preview, restoring KV could easily change Vanguard from a subpar tank to the valuable party protector you envisioned.</font>
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
Thanks to mod16 changes, using KV 100% uptime will require skill and cooperation with healer since self healing is heavily nerfed.