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Official M16: Fighter Feedback

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  • asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,223 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer

    Hello there fellas!

    I own a 17.8 GF tact with conqueror combo. I literally never had problems with holding my aggro. I went on preview with my guildies and it feels like now we can only taunt for a moment and because of the low damage I do, after second everything turns away from me and starts to hit the dps classes.

    This is a problem. And a big one. I also agree with what rjc said - playing right now just doesn't seem fun. That's sad, because I love to play GF. And with m16 it seems that not only we won't be able to constantly hold aggro, but also be a boring class to play.

    You absolutely will be able to hold aggro. We'll continue making changes ahead of launch, its not the goal that holding aggro will be difficult. It will be require a bit more thought than mashing tab constantly, but if you're playing correctly, it shouldn't be a lot of work.

    Honestly, the only time you should lose aggro once we get things in a good place, if you're playing competently, is if you're KO'd or if a DPS is going ham single-target while you're trying to keep threat off of the other 2 DPS who are going ham with AoEs. Just little group coordination issues like that, but even then, we want to give you the tools to play well in that situation.

    I'm hesitant to make immediate changes because once I got used to them, I haven't had any trouble holding aggro in our internal playtests. Keep trying new things out, and providing feedback, we're definitely going to be making changes as people get more used to things. There are lots of bugs right now like artifacts that do excessive damage, so if something like that gets used, you have little hope of staying ahead on threat.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,223 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer
    lowjohn said:

    The feat that causes Brazen Thrust to reset the cooldown on Piercing Thrust doesn't function, at all. Or at least, not in the 300+ attempts I made. Maybe it would have proc'd on attempt 500 or 600? But 0.2% isn't exactly "a chance" and should probably be either clearer, or maybe the feat is just broken.

    Thanks for the report, I'll take a look at this. It definitely shouldn't be procing that infrequently, so chances are its broken.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,223 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer

    Feedback:
    "Dig In" has delay in kneeling and getting up.

    "Deep Breath" feat for "Dig In" has waaaaaay too long a kneel time (5 seconds).

    Most mob fights are half over by bthe time "Deep Breath" kicks in anyway.
    Not worth the bother for a 5% damage boost and mysterious unquantified "Threat generation".
    While you are taking a knee for 5 seconds you pass on doing much more damage and building threat then is worth a 5% damage reduction. (corrected)

    And the threat boost (can't tell if it works) is a waste because in that 5 seconds of nothingness you have already lost all the aggro you just painstakingly grabbed.

    Recommendation:
    Shorten the minimum "Dig In" time for "Deep Breath" to 3.5 seconds.
    Same as my earlier comment: Dig In should put us to the top of the threat list. That would make it very useful.

    I asked Volo about it, but the drunken idiot just started singing a song about himself.
    https://i.imgur.com/vvm6Gna.png

    Edit: corrected the "Deep Breath" effect. reduced damage of 5% still not worth kneeling for 5 seconds.

    Yeah, Deep Breath will be getting some adjustments.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,223 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer

    I tested the fighter for a day exclusively on vanguard, I'll try dreadnought Tom. So my feedback is from the tanks perspective.



    I found tanking exciting and I didn't really have problems with managing how I took damage and for the most part I had fun. I was able to manage aggro as efficiently as I could with the tools but this also means I purposely let a few minions go because I felt the party should be able to handle those and instead focused on targeting the elites or the biggest meanies along with whatever minions I could target. As it stands I felt we need an aoe at will that generates threat and there is none.



    The damage from cleave is very low that trying to maintain threat with it is not possible all the time. Threatening rush is a single target threat multiplier and I would like it if you could remove the threat generation from threat rush and increase it's damage since its single target and give cleave a higher threat generation.



    Moving on to at wills while guarding, I forgot their new names but ill just call it aggravating strike as it was. We have been requesting a qol change since forever to remove that stupid forward movement while using it. It's been so annoying that even currently on live we don't use it on bosses like Ras nsi or the acrolith because we go through the bosses textures like as if the boss doesn't exist. Just do it already. If we want to move forward while guarding, we can do that ourselves and we don't want aggravating strike to do that for us.



    The encounters are good enough for a tank and I totally got rid of enforced threat and boy, was I happy to 😁

    I found myself using linebreakers assault which is probably going to be a staple for tanks, anvil (highest damage and our best single target aggro) and bull charge or shield slam for a little bit of cc as required. I was quite surprised with the amount of damage I did as a tank, in some cases I outdid a dps class but that's probably because they had no clue what they were doing, anyways it was respectable damage for a tank.



    Now what I totally hate and absolutely cannot tolerate is "DIG IN". What the hell is this? OMG it sucks totally. Everything about it is a cause for discomfort. It lags while trying to activate it and while trying to cancel it off. It bugs out often that you get rooted in that spot even after deactivation and you can't move. Regarding it's functionality, I don't know how this is helpful or how we can use it. To be fair I tried every scenario to try to make use of this HAMSTER and it's just so horrible. The only thing about it that may be of use is to some newbie tank standing on a large red circular splatter zone and activating it for the 360 degree guard. This needs a total rework. I'm absolutely certain there is no fighter in favour of dig in. So pls let's dig ourselves out of this mess while we still have time or else this will be the next qol change we will we requesting for an eternity. Plus don't let this go live.



    I'll be trying out the dreadnought Tom so more feedback on that in due time.

    There are some big bugs with dig in currently, so I apologize. I'll be aiming to get those sorted out ASAP.

    Otherwise, I am exceedingly glad to hear that you liked the changes and had no problem picking them up! Sounds to me like you're playing with the right attitude (letting a minion here or there go, for instance) and making good use of the new and adjusted powers.

    I also end up outdoing some DPS classes in our early internal playtests, and I can assure you, its because they are under geared or still learning their rotations. Our internal DPS are pulling well ahead of me now, but I'm still not having trouble keeping threat.

    Thanks for letting me know about your frustration with the power formerly known as aggravating strike. I'm just going to take off the forward motion, per your request. I also agree that it is unnecessary.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,223 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer

    asterdahl said:


    By the way, yes Knight's Challenge does work with Dig In.

    no it doesn't, i just tested it out on LOL and no damage reflection while in dig in state (had no floater indicating my attacker takes any damage and his bar didn't move). unleas it stamina regen all the time and reflect just on block, in my opinion both should work on dig in.


    I'll take a look! It certainly should work, so I apologize for misleading you. It will absolutely be fixed.
  • demonmongerdemonmonger Posts: 3,316Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    > @klangeddin said:
    > Bug: Vanguard Tank spec Fighter has INSANE walking speed (light speed movement), it breaks the game, making it unplayable! You also fly around and get stuck into invisible walls in the sky. You can do nothing with it at the moment.

    I was able to do this on other classes as well... but yes it sucks... you go flying into the air... you can only move on mount or with walk feature.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
  • xdruidgregxxdruidgregx Posts: 57Member Arc User

    In my opinion what vanguard lacks is range pull skill that would allow me to lure single enemy or group of enemies away from claster of them. ( like tab mark works now on live)

    shield toss could fill that gap ( its DPS path exclusive skill now) it could work similar but instead of stun it would generate more agro
  • checkmatein3checkmatein3 Posts: 525Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    Review of the New Fighter after another day of testing:

    I have figured out more the Dreadnaught play, for Solo PvE. I attempted the Expedition at the end of Twisted Caverns with the Vanguard build, and found my going very very slow, and I was taking much more damage.

    There are movement bonuses in the class features, but some seem counter-productive to a tank build. There are two ways to think of tanks, and I will use WW2 as an example. The Germans built the Tiger tanks. They were massive. They were slow. But, they could take a ton of damage from all sides. And they had small defenses for up close and a huge huge gun. This seems to be the philsophy behind the current Vanguard. The other kind of tank was the American Abrams. It was lighter, faster, could not take as much damage head-on, but could get to the side quickly and hit the weak spot. The option to play as a faster light tank with Vanguard (with all the movement bonuses) is missing at present. I had both movement bonuses slotted as well as Gladiator's Guile as well as boons for movement, and I still cannot get out of the red aoes fast enough before they hit. One would think why would a tank need to get out of a red zone?

    The twisted caverns has a bug where a level 80 warden (golem) spawns instead of a level 71. I decided to test my Fighter with Vanguard on this enemy. I have at least 24k in every category, which means I should be able to TANK it (the build is bad in the long term, but for now its good for getting to the 0). I am also running 36k defense, which means I should have some defense for its hits, along with the 30% from the shield, right? If I stood in the way of any of its hits, I was dead. Instant death. So, how is it possible that a tank that has full shield (totalling about 350k hp) and about 46% defense (30% from the vanguard and 16% from the defense stat), with full deflect at 0, no combat advantage, no crit, and no arm penetration from enemy) be one shot by over 700k in damage? Either I have to get out of the way, or die. Or the enemy had way more than 24k in all stats. Hell, he could even have 27k (an epic dungeon enemy), because I have THAT stat covered in my current testing build. But, there he was, hitting me with one overhand shot with full arm pen mitigation, full deflect mitigation, full combat advantage mitigation, full crit resist (all above epic 80 stats) and an addition 46% defense ABOVE the epic 80 level, and he hits me in guard, takes out my entire shield and kills me in one shot, which is 700k hp?

    The only way I could tank this beast, was to set up, do a small little pebble throw (brazen slash), then hold guard and walk backwards, as this thing did the overhead smash. I could not hold aggro with dps around also trying to kill it, not that it matters because the only thing we all could do was run from it if it got too close. And the DMG we did was puny. With 70k power, crit at 30k, CA at 33k (I know its bad to have both, but I am not optimizing right now), arm pen at 29k, I was hitting for only 70 to 80 dmg each. That is not 70k or 80k, or 7k, or 8k, that is as you read it. 70 and 80.

    Is there some kind of autoscaling between levels that works so that, even though I am level 71 (at the time of the encounter), I am somehow beyond the ability in my stats to target the lvl 80?

    So, now I circle back around to my first point. Heavy versus light tanks. Vanguard feels like a light tank at the moment, even against mobs that it encounters at the same level. If mobs in twisted and the expedition (lvl 72?) have around 14-16k stats, I should be just fine as a tank. 30% from the vanguard shield and 40% from my defense stat, almost caps me at this level. But some of them must have damage that ignores all defense?

    Or should I also ask that the shield is ONLY good for physical damage? What does the 30% of the vanguard mitigate? Does it mitigate all the different kinds of damage in mod 16? And if the answer is NO, then how are you going to expect us to tank different mobs if defense does not mitigate as a tank? If the answer is yes, then I would seriously take a look at the scaling that you have for DMG done by mobs, because they must be off the charts.

    Keep in mind that this analysis of the Vanguard comes from a player on preview who is above 20k TIL. Consider the new player entering this zone, maybe around 14k on the Fighter. I do not see how less in the stats will be even more helpful.
    LEVIATHAN--19.3k Metallic Dragonborn Guardian Fighter Swordmaster Loadouts

    Guild--And the Imaginary Friends




  • checkmatein3checkmatein3 Posts: 525Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited March 3
    Here are my recommendations to improve Vanguard:

    1. Make Shield Talent, the class skill do the following--instead of just stamina regeneration, it should also expand the effectiveness of the shield in the amount of hit points. I do not have numbers, but since end game tanks will stack hp before even reaching defense cap, it is a good way to synergize for a HEAVY tank and keep it in the classic trinity role. Maybe 25-50% buff to shield (in PvE only?).

    2. Dig-in is already discussed as a buggy mechanic, but there should be some sprint of movement. ITF and recovery was a great way to keep movement high for light tanks or even heavy tanks to position or move out of the way in mod 15. Not so much in mod 16. As some have suggested, is it possible to change Dig-In for a sprint mechanism, that drains stamina? It can be like the vengeance meter for the Vanguard path only. Then, keep all the 'bonuses' on the feats for vengeance meter as sprint. This means the Vanguard will constantly be between holding up shield (with shift) or sprinting (with tab), where sprint drains stamina and sprint meter (its like the tank is getting tired from running in all that heavy gear). It will require skill, but then each Vanguard tank can choose how much they want to stay in the red or get out of the way.

    3. Change the encounter and other class feats to synergize with movement and sprint meter. Thus ITF boon for the Vanguard can be like the Dreadnaught, but related to Sprint. Slot ITF and you get a movement bonus, and you fill your sprint meter up to 50% (see my report on the bug that it drains above 50 down to 50).

    These three changes will give Vanguard players (who will need to choose vanguard as a tank role for dungeons) the ability to range from Heavy tanks, with maybe constant stamina (boons) to Hybrid medium tanks (with a mix of short stamina and short sprints), to Light tanks (with sprint).
    LEVIATHAN--19.3k Metallic Dragonborn Guardian Fighter Swordmaster Loadouts

    Guild--And the Imaginary Friends




  • checkmatein3checkmatein3 Posts: 525Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited March 3
    As a final post on this (sorry for the multi posts), can any developer explain what +feat points is whenever you level up? Is this some kind of scaling, where the STAT points of the build are adjusted? As I mentioned above, by my stats, there is no way a level 80 enemy should be able to hit me in guard for 700k damage. So, is there a scaling system below the stats (like there effectiveness at a given level), that is shown by the +feat points in levelling up?

    And do I have to apply these feat points on some tab or link in game that I don't see? Are they being applied correctly? Why, after I have levelled, does my powers tab flash like there is something I need to do? Is the flashing showing me something that I have to do (assign feat points I don't see from levelling), or something that changed that I cannot see?
    Post edited by checkmatein3 on
    LEVIATHAN--19.3k Metallic Dragonborn Guardian Fighter Swordmaster Loadouts

    Guild--And the Imaginary Friends




  • manipulosmanipulos Posts: 235Member Arc User
    Bug: Heavy Slash misses targets directly in front of your character sometimes. I can't tell what is causing it, but it happens more frequently on small targets.
  • dread4moordread4moor Posts: 987Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    Here are my recommendations to improve Vanguard:

    1. Make Shield Talent, the class skill do the following--instead of just stamina regeneration, it should also expand the effectiveness of the shield in the amount of hit points. I do not have numbers, but since end game tanks will stack hp before even reaching defense cap, it is a good way to synergize for a HEAVY tank and keep it in the classic trinity role. Maybe 25-50% buff to shield (in PvE only?).

    2. Dig-in is already discussed as a buggy mechanic, but there should be some sprint of movement. ITF and recovery was a great way to keep movement high for light tanks or even heavy tanks to position or move out of the way in mod 15. Not so much in mod 16. As some have suggested, is it possible to change Dig-In for a sprint mechanism, that drains stamina? It can be like the vengeance meter for the Vanguard path only. Then, keep all the 'bonuses' on the feats for vengeance meter as sprint. This means the Vanguard will constantly be between holding up shield (with shift) or sprinting (with tab), where sprint drains stamina and sprint meter (its like the tank is getting tired from running in all that heavy gear). It will require skill, but then each Vanguard tank can choose how much they want to stay in the red or get out of the way.

    3. Change the encounter and other class feats to synergize with movement and sprint meter. Thus ITF boon for the Vanguard can be like the Dreadnaught, but related to Sprint. Slot ITF and you get a movement bonus, and you fill your sprint meter up to 50% (see my report on the bug that it drains above 50 down to 50).

    These three changes will give Vanguard players (who will need to choose vanguard as a tank role for dungeons) the ability to range from Heavy tanks, with maybe constant stamina (boons) to Hybrid medium tanks (with a mix of short stamina and short sprints), to Light tanks (with sprint).

    Ditto the shield talent suggestion. Shield Talent needs to improve shield strength, not just it's ability to regenerate when unused.

    Dig-In needs a rewrite, that seems universally agreed.
    Glitchy delays in animation are trivial. those can be fixed.
    We are talking about how this mechanic fits the class role: dedicated tank.
    Using @checkmatein3 's analogy, I think Vanguard should be a HEAVY tank. THE tank of the game. A meat-shield with only two virtues (hard to kill + aggro magnet), but it is the BEST at those virtues.

    As a tank purist, I respectfully disagree with replacing Dig-In and ITF with sprint for Vanguard.

    Barbarians "sprint" away from a red zone.
    But sprinting away is the opposite of tanking.
    Tanks "Dig-In".
    The concept and name fit the theme.
    But the effect fails in party protection and aggro-holding.

    Suggestion:
    Dig In: On Vanguard, add party protection (eg. OP Divine Protector) and threat generation while kneeling in Dig-In.

    Doesn't that fit the theme (dedicated tank)?

    Allow me to give public praise to @asterdahl .
    You have a thankless job, enduring 48 hours of non-stop complaint.
    I admire your professionalism, restraint and timely responses.
    This is the best dev response to feedback I've seen in 5 1/2 years in NW.
    Regards.


    JrUzbQw.jpg?1
    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • hypervoreianhypervoreian Posts: 1,007Member Arc User
    hi to all o/
    I logged into preview and specced as vanguard (tank).
    I qued for solo lostmauth.
    I dont remember the names of the new powers,I will use the corresponding old ones.
    My Il was 15,8k at preview,companion was rust monster ,rotation was mainly frontline surge,enforced threat, and knee breaker.Att wills were threatening rush and the renamed crushing surge.
    features were the shield talent and i cannot remember the other a new one utility :/
    Stats were aprox 48k power,35k crit 26k defense.


    Att will damage is inconsistent.It jumps regularly from 2k to 400-700k range.
    I am afraid this could compromise the results of a lot of test runs.And how classes perform.


    companion damage range from 5k to 4-5 millions,one shotting adds and bosses

    Shield meter quantity is not adequate.in the past we had boons to extend it,now we dont

    Adds curently do too much damage,bosses too.The skorpion ate my shield meter in one attack,or two

    Knights challenge casting time is very long.You need this power to instantly refill your guard meter cause you are in grave danger.Currently it takes 1-2 secs= you are dead

    Iron warrior needs a buff
    Encounters like knee breaker ,anvil do very low damage
    Lunging strike animation is clunly
    Dig in ,did not protected me,it did not offer something extra,but maybe i used it wrong.I dig in infornt of one skorpion,he killed me when shield meter was eaten.What is the utility there :/

    Overall ,low to mid high GFs will have great difficulty to tank.
    If they are in a group that can clean the adds fast,they will feel that are doing ok,but in a prolonged fight they are going to have a very hard time.

    defense mechanisms of Gf need a buff ,and his damage also


  • xdruidgregxxdruidgregx Posts: 57Member Arc User
    edited March 3
    Just came into my mind something like this: while in dig in state tank is immune na push back effects (dragon wing attack AoE, giant club swing, FBI 2nd boss biting attack. Possibly body slam when whole members are toss into sky. Same for MSP 2nd boss, although it would have sens with that push back jump attack it might interfere with mechanic of this battle.

    Other thing is i have impretion that in present at-wills design there is only one practicable setup: Brazen Slash ( for stamina regen) and tide of iron ( 10s buff to agro while using other skills). I'd suggest to add stamina regen on cleave as well, value possibly might depends of number of enemies hit by swing (up to 3 per swing).
    Let's say Brazen Slash generate 100 stamina per slash in that case lets say Cleave would generate 3x30 stamina per swing ( assuming that swing hit at least 3 enemy). That way both skills can be used to regenerate stamina and stamina is life for tank.

    Post edited by xdruidgregx on
  • dread4moordread4moor Posts: 987Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    Just came into my mind something like this: while in dig in state tank is immune na push back effects (dragon wing attack AoE, giant club swing, FBI 2nd boss biting attack. Possibly body slam when whole members are toss into sky. Same for MSP 2nd boss, although it would have sens with that push back jump attack it might interfere with mechanic of this battle.

    Tried most of these (Dragon wing, Giant swing, Hati) except MSP second boss.
    Dig In holds you in place, but there is no strategic advantage to it.
    They all do very little damage and are easy to manage with blocking and positioning.
    The bugged delay in kneeling and getting up puts you more at risk of a follow-up 1-hit then it gives you any broken exploit opportunity.

    CODG push/pull would be a better example of a potential Dig In exploit.
    But, again, Dig-In is so awkward and delayed that you could put yourself more at risk of falling off by trying it.
    Not enough people in Preview doing CODG to try that yet.
    JrUzbQw.jpg?1
    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • checkmatein3checkmatein3 Posts: 525Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    There is some kind of weird synergy to where I am missing my encounter attacks, or they do the opposite and protect the target. For my 3 encounters on Dreadnaught, I have Anvil, Onslaught, and Commander Strike. If I rotate with CS first, the Onslaught does not seem to do any damage, although they do get stunned. Then, if I follow up with Anvil, I miss sometimes. When I swing my at wills, I only do about 50-100 damage. It is as if I am somehow buffing the target when I control them with CS and then Onslaught. It is quite reproducible. The only damage done to targets during this time is done by my companion. I do not see any PC dmg floaters stating the damage I have done, and the targets' health bar does not go down.
    I do have the feat where CS if it crits gives the effect. Also, I am running the Slyblade Kobold with the 100% encounter bonus for enemies under control/held. Is it perhaps making the opposite effect?
    LEVIATHAN--19.3k Metallic Dragonborn Guardian Fighter Swordmaster Loadouts

    Guild--And the Imaginary Friends




  • xdruidgregxxdruidgregx Posts: 57Member Arc User
    edited March 3


    Dig In holds you in place

    it does? i tried it only on Neverdeath dragon and as it works same as blok ( I don't fly into sky as if i wouldnt block at all) but get pushed back from place i'm standing in my idea dig in would pretty much root me in place. But as u noticed it wouldn't have any strategic advantage. Just tosing lose ideas that might direct someone on some better functionalities.


    Another idea, why not make dig in as damage immunity not based on damage taken but for some time. Stamina bar is drain like DPS path while charging Vengeance, there could be feat that would lower drain rate. Though it require smoother
    activating/deactivating dig in.
  • manipulosmanipulos Posts: 235Member Arc User
    @hypervoreian

    Unfortunately this current build on preview is quite broken when running old dungeons so it's going to be really difficult for you to draw any conclusions from running them. Some enemies/bosses will one-shot you over and over again and others seem way too easy and die within a few seconds.
  • dread4moordread4moor Posts: 987Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    > @xdruidgregx said:
    > Dig In holds you in place
    >
    > it does? i tried it only on Neverdeath dragon and as it works same as blok ( I don't fly into sky as if i wouldnt block at all) but get pushed back from place i'm standing in my idea dig in would pretty much root me in place. But as u noticed it wouldn't have any strategic advantage. Just tosing lose ideas that might direct someone on some better functionalities.
    >
    >
    > Another idea, why not make dig in as damage immunity not based on damage taken but for some time. Stamina bar is drain like DPS path while charging Vengeance, there could be feat that would lower drain rate. Though it require smoother
    > activating/deactivating dig in.

    I was not in Neverdeath, but I believe you.
    Maybe it varies by Dragon. Who knows.
    Resisting pushes is not a big "need" for Fighters anyway.
    We handle pushes fine.

    I've spent all of day 3 on my Dreadnaught loudout. Dig-In is slightly more useful on DPS Fighter than on Tank Fighter.

    Feat to lower drain rate/raise Vengeance rate on Dreadnought sounds good.

    But mirror that with a Vanguard feat that lowers drain rate/applies threat while Dug-In.
    JrUzbQw.jpg?1
    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • manipulosmanipulos Posts: 235Member Arc User
    Paladin has several very cool looking visuals for some powers and I haven't seen any for Fighter yet :P
  • dread4moordread4moor Posts: 987Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    manipulos said:

    Paladin has several very cool looking visuals for some powers and I haven't seen any for Fighter yet :P

    True. they are all just recycled animations.
    Dig In looks like Sanctuary with a kneel that would look cool if it weren't so delayed and unreliable.
    JrUzbQw.jpg?1
    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • fdsakhfduewhfiuffdsakhfduewhfiuf Posts: 580Member Arc User
    Visitied CN alone with my 19k fighter. The first enemy hit me with my shield raised and I was dead after the second hit. This feels like M6 again. Is this the intended difficulty?
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Posts: 2,064Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited March 4
    asterdahl said:


    We're certainly getting a lot of feedback on at-wills vis-a-vis other powers, so it's not outside the realm of possibility that we may make some adjustments. Just know that those adjustments do mean that the gap between playing skillfully and just holding down left click will narrow significantly, which is what we'd like to avoid.

    The thing is: there are already feats and mechanics in place to ensure that players aren't doing "hold down At-wills to win".
    On live, I can easily tell whether a GWF on live is taking my flowchart joke literally when you see them not using their self buffs.

    On preview, there still are feats and passives that encourage mixing up your power use. Things like the Ranger's Blade Hurricane/Lightning Rod, the Cleric's scale tipping, and Wizard's Spell Twisting encourage a rhythm of using different At-wills alongside your encounters.

    Fighter (and Barbarian) has a few feats/passives encourage that rhythm to some extent such as, {repared Thrust, Cleaving Bull, or Heavy Slash.

    However, the only feat on Fighter that actually has a good rhythm and feels effective is Heavier Slash. It makes Heavy Slash's damage decently respectable for damage and the feat actually makes sense with how both Heavy Slash is intended to be used: as something to throw out every now and then to refresh its damage buff.

    Prepared Thrust is not great or fun to use because there is not much synergy: it's great for the first few seconds of combat, but then goes off timing, as I will refresh my Heavy Slash buff way before Piercing Thrust comes off cooldown. Cleaving Bull has a decent concept (charge in and quickly Cleave everything to establish aggro), but is not very good due to oddly being on the tank tree in addition to the boost not doing enough to help Cleave's poor state of being right now.

    Alongside a global buff to At-wills + slightly reducing encounter damage to compensate, I would suggest doubling down on more feats & passives that encourage more methodical use of At-wills alongside Encounters.

    Think passives/feats like live's Aspect of the Serpent & Swiftness of the Fox, passives and feats that encourage you to find a rhythm to your powers rather than just "tossing all your encounters when you can and then spam At-wills while waiting" problem that people are complaining about right now*.

    *Do note that Mod 16's current system only encourages you to do this due to a large amount of number inflation bonuses, lack of group buffs, and a general lack of speed and aggression that made NW so much fun.

  • wilbur626wilbur626 Posts: 161Member Arc User
    edited March 4
    Hi!

    I've been a GF since pre-release, and have been playing weirdo underdog builds since the very beginning.
    After playing on preview the whole weekend, I have to say that I really enjoy the changes to the GF tank, as it feels very much like what I tried to accomplish with my m11/12 IV protector build.There is however, as,others have pointed out, lots of issues that needs attention;

    1. Fighter needs a better taunt mechanic, as the current skills placing you on top of mob aggro list is counting on tank to be able to actually hold aggro. In party with high DPS players, this is not the case.

    2. At-Will damage has to be adjusted for Vanguard tank to be able to hold aggro.

    3. Threatening Rush and Tide of Iron at-wills increased aggro effect should also include the "place on top of mob aggro list".Feat? This would make a great opener for the Vanguard, but would rely on having another at-will dealing just enough damage to actually keep mob attention.

    4. Knights Challenge animation gets cancelled by shift-shielding, animation takes too long for this to be viable.

    5. Dig In NEEDS to be a hard-taunt, of course all mobs should pile on top of the cocky imnune tank :disappointed:

    6. As others have pointed out, Dig In needs polishing for both Fighter paragons.

    7. Weapon set artifact effects are still m15, maybe these could be used to make some of our wishes to come true?

    8. Does party healing from the feated self-heal daily (can't remember name) contribute to +aggro in it's current form?

    9. This is a very good opportunity to make some weapon/armor enchants "class specific" instead of them being made 100% useless.

    10. Older campaign gear could also see a new use with your new scaling mechanics. If I were to tank FBI, I would swap to everfrost resist load out. For demon infested content, my Drowcraft load out would be awesome. This also goes for the underdark rings, the +DR and +aggro rings would be awesome for your refreshed tank classes.

    11. Tank needs combat advantage ability.

    Tldr: We need better aggro mechanics, adjusted at-will DPS and dig in needs fixing


    PS: Please dont fix @rjc9000 s moonwalk
    Post edited by wilbur626 on
  • asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,223 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer

    asterdahl said:


    By the way, yes Knight's Challenge does work with Dig In.

    no it doesn't, i just tested it out on LOL and no damage reflection while in dig in state (had no floater indicating my attacker takes any damage and his bar didn't move). unleas it stamina regen all the time and reflect just on block, in my opinion both should work on dig in.


    I'll take a look! It certainly should work, so I apologize for misleading you. It will absolutely be fixed.

    Review of the New Fighter after another day of testing:

    I have figured out more the Dreadnaught play, for Solo PvE. I attempted the Expedition at the end of Twisted Caverns with the Vanguard build, and found my going very very slow, and I was taking much more damage.

    There are movement bonuses in the class features, but some seem counter-productive to a tank build. There are two ways to think of tanks, and I will use WW2 as an example. The Germans built the Tiger tanks. They were massive. They were slow. But, they could take a ton of damage from all sides. And they had small defenses for up close and a huge huge gun. This seems to be the philsophy behind the current Vanguard. The other kind of tank was the American Abrams. It was lighter, faster, could not take as much damage head-on, but could get to the side quickly and hit the weak spot. The option to play as a faster light tank with Vanguard (with all the movement bonuses) is missing at present. I had both movement bonuses slotted as well as Gladiator's Guile as well as boons for movement, and I still cannot get out of the red aoes fast enough before they hit. One would think why would a tank need to get out of a red zone?

    The twisted caverns has a bug where a level 80 warden (golem) spawns instead of a level 71. I decided to test my Fighter with Vanguard on this enemy. I have at least 24k in every category, which means I should be able to TANK it (the build is bad in the long term, but for now its good for getting to the 0). I am also running 36k defense, which means I should have some defense for its hits, along with the 30% from the shield, right? If I stood in the way of any of its hits, I was dead. Instant death. So, how is it possible that a tank that has full shield (totalling about 350k hp) and about 46% defense (30% from the vanguard and 16% from the defense stat), with full deflect at 0, no combat advantage, no crit, and no arm penetration from enemy) be one shot by over 700k in damage? Either I have to get out of the way, or die. Or the enemy had way more than 24k in all stats. Hell, he could even have 27k (an epic dungeon enemy), because I have THAT stat covered in my current testing build. But, there he was, hitting me with one overhand shot with full arm pen mitigation, full deflect mitigation, full combat advantage mitigation, full crit resist (all above epic 80 stats) and an addition 46% defense ABOVE the epic 80 level, and he hits me in guard, takes out my entire shield and kills me in one shot, which is 700k hp?

    The only way I could tank this beast, was to set up, do a small little pebble throw (brazen slash), then hold guard and walk backwards, as this thing did the overhead smash. I could not hold aggro with dps around also trying to kill it, not that it matters because the only thing we all could do was run from it if it got too close. And the DMG we did was puny. With 70k power, crit at 30k, CA at 33k (I know its bad to have both, but I am not optimizing right now), arm pen at 29k, I was hitting for only 70 to 80 dmg each. That is not 70k or 80k, or 7k, or 8k, that is as you read it. 70 and 80.

    Is there some kind of autoscaling between levels that works so that, even though I am level 71 (at the time of the encounter), I am somehow beyond the ability in my stats to target the lvl 80?

    So, now I circle back around to my first point. Heavy versus light tanks. Vanguard feels like a light tank at the moment, even against mobs that it encounters at the same level. If mobs in twisted and the expedition (lvl 72?) have around 14-16k stats, I should be just fine as a tank. 30% from the vanguard shield and 40% from my defense stat, almost caps me at this level. But some of them must have damage that ignores all defense?

    Or should I also ask that the shield is ONLY good for physical damage? What does the 30% of the vanguard mitigate? Does it mitigate all the different kinds of damage in mod 16? And if the answer is NO, then how are you going to expect us to tank different mobs if defense does not mitigate as a tank? If the answer is yes, then I would seriously take a look at the scaling that you have for DMG done by mobs, because they must be off the charts.

    Keep in mind that this analysis of the Vanguard comes from a player on preview who is above 20k TIL. Consider the new player entering this zone, maybe around 14k on the Fighter. I do not see how less in the stats will be even more helpful.

    Thanks for the feedback! There are definitely some problems with survivability against certain enemies, and we're looking into it, I appreciate the bug reports. As for attacking a level 80 enemy at level 71, please note that there are combat modifiers in play that dramatically reduce your effectiveness against anything 3 or more levels higher than you, and those get more and more punishing with each level. It is not intended that the golem spawns at 80 there, so that shouldn't happen in the future.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,223 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer
    manipulos said:

    Bug: Heavy Slash misses targets directly in front of your character sometimes. I can't tell what is causing it, but it happens more frequently on small targets.


    Thanks for the report! I'll look into this.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,223 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer

    hi to all o/
    I logged into preview and specced as vanguard (tank).
    I qued for solo lostmauth.
    I dont remember the names of the new powers,I will use the corresponding old ones.
    My Il was 15,8k at preview,companion was rust monster ,rotation was mainly frontline surge,enforced threat, and knee breaker.Att wills were threatening rush and the renamed crushing surge.
    features were the shield talent and i cannot remember the other a new one utility :/
    Stats were aprox 48k power,35k crit 26k defense.


    Att will damage is inconsistent.It jumps regularly from 2k to 400-700k range.
    I am afraid this could compromise the results of a lot of test runs.And how classes perform.


    companion damage range from 5k to 4-5 millions,one shotting adds and bosses

    Shield meter quantity is not adequate.in the past we had boons to extend it,now we dont

    Adds curently do too much damage,bosses too.The skorpion ate my shield meter in one attack,or two

    Knights challenge casting time is very long.You need this power to instantly refill your guard meter cause you are in grave danger.Currently it takes 1-2 secs= you are dead

    Iron warrior needs a buff
    Encounters like knee breaker ,anvil do very low damage
    Lunging strike animation is clunly
    Dig in ,did not protected me,it did not offer something extra,but maybe i used it wrong.I dig in infornt of one skorpion,he killed me when shield meter was eaten.What is the utility there :/

    Overall ,low to mid high GFs will have great difficulty to tank.
    If they are in a group that can clean the adds fast,they will feel that are doing ok,but in a prolonged fight they are going to have a very hard time.

    defense mechanisms of Gf need a buff ,and his damage also


    Thanks for the feedback! There seems to be something crazy going on with your character if your damage values were all over the place like that. If I could ask, what is your character's name on the test shard? We'd like to take a look so we can figure out what the issue is, thank you!
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