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Official M16: Refinement

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  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,426 Arc User

    The exchanges are meant to BtA.

    There are too many different abuses, including changing bind status of bound enchants to unbound, that happen in an unbound system.

    For anyone who wants to change their enchants but wants unbound ones, trading with players/using the auction house is the way to go.

    As long the exchange will stay as a game feature permatently and we are able to adapt to each change in the future, i am fine with this changes.

    I"d be ok with this if it was a permanent exchange and you could exchange three stat for one or one for 2 or 3 ect. it could still hoark you though. they add new enchantments to the game. ordinarily you'd be able to trade old for new. if you had a weapon enchant and a new one came out you'd have to flat out buy it. you couldn't trade for it.


  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,426 Arc User
    adinosii said:

    nisckis said:

    You can just simply make it to do not accept bound items, that way the abuse will not happen.

    If this is not acceptable then just make that only enchants from a minimum rank can be exchanged, for example R12 and better ones.

    You might actually have a pretty good solution there. Allow only exchanging unbound R12-R14 enchants for other unbound R12-R14 enchants. It would make those happy who want to exchange their valuable Lightning or Negation enchants for example - it would prevent profiteering through buying a ton of, say moderate Eclipse enchants, and by disallowing exchange of bound enchants, the loophole is not introduced.

    This would be an acceptable and sensible thing to do (which probably ensures it will not get implemented).
    I thought it was this way already. it wouldn't let me trade the heart of fire or the anniversary r14. only two bound enchants I have..


  • ramesh84ramesh84 Member Posts: 133 Arc User

    The exchanges are meant to BtA.

    There are too many different abuses, including changing bind status of bound enchants to unbound, that happen in an unbound system.

    For anyone who wants to change their enchants but wants unbound ones, trading with players/using the auction house is the way to go.

    Plenty of reasons to define that an April's fool or an unfortunate call imho (hopefully the first one).
    First of all that's assuming there's no time or will to provide an exchange system based on starting status, fine with that. Then:
    1. If problem was giving the chance to unbound what was previously bound solution is simple: remove the chance to trade bound ones, except for vigor/leeching/tranquil/eldricth of course. The overall % of bound enchantment, insignia or runestone is quite laughable compared to unbound ones, less players would be affected.
    2. If the issue are the traders that already bought some cheap enchantment to get a BiS one in exchange solution is simple too: let claimed enchantment/insignia being BtA for a limited time, let's say 3+ months. This kind of status is already available after new anti fraud measures, nothing new to code. With that I wouldn't consider that an investment anymore: there are plenty of better and safer way to make way more profit in that period.
    To be honest I didn't plan to use exchanging system aside from runestones, as I never cared refining them and have a bunch of now useless silveries, I overall found the system a nice to have and a proper compensation for the incredible amount of stat rework this mod will bring, this way is just useless: nobody will use it.
  • mordekai#1901 mordekai Member Posts: 1,598 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    How about...
    Every character is given X number of exchanges.
    Base it on the total number of enchants any character would expect to have slotted at any one time. So all the standard enchants on gear, one weapon, one armour, plus six from the companion slots.
    I may (probably have) have missed something obvious, but whatever that adds up to. (I'm about to watch the season finale of Walking Dead at the moment and too tired to log on and count them up myself)

    That way you get an effective "One for One". People then could, if they choose, re-exchange one, but at the expense of another one. Maybe if the devs are feeling generous, they could stick a +1 or +2 extras, just in case someone goofs up and presses the wrong button or something. It's an expensive thing to get wrong, after all...

    The number can sit in the character's stats alongside the likes of Companion Upgrade tokens, and how many Re-rolls you have.

    The problem with having the vendor available permanently with a "whatever, whenever, as long as it's already Bound" approach is that it offers no incentive for anyone to ever use the Auction House, or any other means of getting new enchants again if they want to switch stuff up later down the line. Unless it comes with a large AD charge for anything being changed up a second or subsequent time.
    And frankly anything that can be done to avoid having loads of Bound to Account enchants on toons, really should be done.
  • kopros666kopros666 Member Posts: 52 Arc User
    adinosii said:

    kopros666 said:


    This is why on a previous post of mine I suggested one of each armor/weapon per main character. There should be a way to calculate playing time on server (there is a command for it) so newly created chars and rusty chars would be out of the equation.

    But what's a main character....there is no clear way to define that. Also, if you go by age of character, it would unfairly favour those who have a large number of "storage" alts.

    I just don't see this working.
    True. A main character should be considered an active toon during a serious period of time (let's say 2 months minimum, with a minimum 2 logins per week and playtime 2 hours per week so to exclude toons that players used just to invoke).
  • thestiathestia Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 296 Arc User
    I can understand why people are so upset about this. But honestly, I think the solution is to just make the exchange permanent. This way there is no profiteering, but also people can always use the enchants they swap, and keeps the malleability of an unbound enchant.

    Considering the valid concern of players of what the future may hold for stats in mods to come, this seems like a reasonable compromise. If the problem is a sudden influx of new enchants from special events or dungeons, those could just not be added into the exchange.
  • minotaur2857minotaur2857 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,138 Arc User

    The exchanges are meant to BtA.

    There are too many different abuses, including changing bind status of bound enchants to unbound, that happen in an unbound system.

    For anyone who wants to change their enchants but wants unbound ones, trading with players/using the auction house is the way to go.

    Come off it, it's perfectly easy to exchange for the same bind status as the enchant exchanged (clue you need char bound, account bound and unbound boxes), and nobody is going to want my 60+ silveries off my 16 characters, so I will be taking a massive loss if I sell on the AH so am forced to exchange. This is basically just more theft, along with making really expensive to make weapon enchants and MW stuff almost worthless.

    You are going to make so many people unwilling to spend real money with stuff like this the Zen exchange will never move and people will leave in droves.
  • mdarkangel#4696 mdarkangel Member Posts: 442 Arc User
    > @adinosii said:
    > No, this is not perfect, but it is fair and should not be too hard to implement.

    But it's not fair to players with lower level enchantments that are useless to their character(s).
  • picar66picar66 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 118 Arc User
    Making exchanged enchant BTA, but if you upgrade them then they will be unbound. i think that is a solution.
    To upgrade them you need something. That will be honored. Abusing this is mostly impossible, cause to make them unbound they have to invest something of value (RP and xyz Stones). How many bound enchants are around that will be unbound this way? not really much. And it hurts not company. Its good for the circulation of ad/zen. Imho its a "win"/"not lose" descision.
  • kopros666kopros666 Member Posts: 52 Arc User
    adinosii said:

    I am goint to repeat my earlier suggestion:

    Allow only exchanging unbound R11+ enchants for other unbound enchants.

    This would make those happy who want to exchange their valuable Lightning or Negation enchants or tons of unwanted Silvery enchants for example.

    This would also prevent excessive profiteering through buying a ton of, say moderate Eclipse enchants and exhanging those for, say, Barkshield.

    By disallowing exchange of bound enchants, the loophole mentioned by noworries is not introduced.

    No, this is not perfect, but it is fair and should not be too hard to implement.

    This covers it all imho.
  • zimxero#8085 zimxero Member Posts: 876 Arc User
    I still don't know whats wrong with this method:


    Bind 25 exchange tokens to every account that was created at least 30 days before the M16 launch. A token is used up for each item the player exchanges. The newly received items are then "temporarily" bound to account for 30 days.
  • kopros666kopros666 Member Posts: 52 Arc User
    edited April 2019

    I still don't know whats wrong with this method:


    Bind 25 exchange tokens to every account that was created at least 30 days before the M16 launch. A token is used up for each item the player exchanges. The newly received items are then "temporarily" bound to account for 30 days.

    It would be a good idea for players with one or, roughly, two endgame toons, but not for others who play all classes. Also, there are a ton of accounts out there who were created years ago and can exploit the game in every way. So, they can exchange 25 moderate (or whatever) briartwine for barkshields, store them for a month and then sell them for 50xtimes the initial AH cost.
  • adinosiiadinosii Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,271 Arc User
    OK, they just said that distinguishing between bound and unbound is not feasible.....so if they have to handle both the same way, then this might work:

    Make the vendor permanent - that makes it less of a hassle that the enchants are BtA. However, to balance things a bit, make it free for the first month or two and then and an AD fee - say, 50.000 for exchanging a R14, and a lower fee for lower ranks.
    Hoping for improvements...
  • admiralwarlord#3792 admiralwarlord Member Posts: 373 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    https://imgur.com/9XrwKYu

    Just noticing how an enchant bis loses in value to the worst enchant of the game these days, and there's still another 2 weeks left in the preview, imagine in the mod 16 live.
  • ramesh84ramesh84 Member Posts: 133 Arc User

    Allowing you to only exchange R11+ enchants so that they remain unbound:

    • doesn't help people with lower ranked enchants
    • might minimize profiteering but no one's stopping people from just upgrading some of those moderate/greater garbage enchants and exchanging them afterwards
    • doesn't help cryptic line their pockets by forcing you to have to upgrade new enchants

    I don't like that as a solution, but if Devs main concern is avoiding some lesser weapon/armor enchantment cheap trade that will work better than bound system.

    Preventing people from exchanging already bound enchants:

    • completely screws people that might have messed up at some point and ended up with a bound enchant

    I am really missing how a player can bind an enchantment. Vast majority of player base has HoF and Jubilee one as only bound enchantment and you can't upgrade or trade them. I remember some r7 I got from some new mod reward, but wondering how many players bothered to refine them instead of getting RP from them, hard to miss them as taking an additional bag spot.

    Making the exchange permanent:

    • you would never need to upgrade another enchant again, besides when new ranks come out, if you could just keep swapping them on every new mod release

    I don't like that pick, but sounds like a good move if the purpose is counteract "professional" traders.

    Binding the traded for enchant for a set amount of time:

    • how is that avoiding the concern of exploiting the exchange for gain? it's just delaying the gain and in xx months all those enchants will flood the market anyway.

    You probably don't play AH, I do and I'd never lock any amount of AD for such a long period, with the risk they getting useless in a patch, while I have a lot of legit ways to achieve an even better return.

    Who honestly thought that they were going to let you exchange some worthless, garbage enchants for ones of value without binding them.

    Main point you are skipping here is the reason why many of them got garbage and why some other stuff (ie. runestones) needed. Just think about a player playing GF tactic as only main, now he has to choose between sell all his silveries now, facing huge losses, or getting a full set of bound enchantment for next mod..

    Anyway every proposed solution looks better than current in my eyes, because at least they give the whole thing an use, it's just a matter of reducing potential abuses.
  • gripnir78gripnir78 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 374 Arc User
    Hmm why dont try to make just rank 14 for weap/armor enchants and rank 15 for regular one, unbound while leaving rest of those exchanged BtA untill refined to rank 14/15?
    It hits just people speculating market. Regular player is using enchants on his toon right? So having them bonded untill fully refined wont hurt him. That will also encourage players to refine enchants and that allow company to fill coffes as well. And thats gona be a big AD sink as rank 7 marks are in WB so...win/win/win situation. Sure not perfect but not hurting in a long term any1 but profeteers so.....



    BUT there is a catch - since 1000:1% rating enchants are...well not worthy to bother with them too much any more.... since new caps (not taking power or HP into consideration) in LotMM requires about 550k ratings in total so... sure you need stats from every possible source, but enchants are really a joke in compare to time, effort/AD spent to upgrade them...
  • adinosiiadinosii Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,271 Arc User
    gripnir78 said:

    LotMM requires about 550k ratings in total so...

    No, it does not "require" 550K. There is no reason to max every stat. I suspect many players will pretty much ignore Crit Resist, for example, and many will focus either on CA or Crit%, but not both.

    Here are my current stats on Preview:


    I did grab some of the new gear - top IL rank armor and weapons, 3 new artifacts and artifact gear and upgraded my 3 bonding runestones from R14 to R15, but that's it. I did not upgrade my rings, pants/shirt/insignia or the rest of my R14 enchants.

    Sure, the stat allocation is wrong - Crit% is too high, CA and Awareness is too low, but this was more of an experiment than careful min-maxing planning.

    The point is that you can reach pretty high stats without worrying too much about upgrading enchants and insignia.
    Hoping for improvements...
  • gripnir78gripnir78 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 374 Arc User
    adinosii said:

    gripnir78 said:

    LotMM requires about 550k ratings in total so...

    No, it does not "require" 550K. There is no reason to max every stat. I suspect many players will pretty much ignore Crit Resist, for example, and many will focus either on CA or Crit%, but not both.

    Here are my current stats on Preview:


    I did grab some of the new gear - top IL rank armor and weapons, 3 new artifacts and artifact gear and upgraded my 3 bonding runestones from R14 to R15, but that's it. I did not upgrade my rings, pants/shirt/insignia or the rest of my R14 enchants.

    Sure, the stat allocation is wrong - Crit% is too high, CA and Awareness is too low, but this was more of an experiment than careful min-maxing planning.

    The point is that you can reach pretty high stats without worrying too much about upgrading enchants and insignia.
    Well I play a tank - I need pretty much all of them so.....yeah try that before you say something like that...:D

    BUT your last sentence - "The point is that you can reach pretty high stats without worrying too much about upgrading enchants and insignia" is the key here.

    Enchantments are in fact so weak that improwing those from lets say rank 14 --->15 is a wasted effort.

    And that in fact makes me wonder what would be a new source of making money for a Cryptic as rework of refinment chances of succes and making large part of upgrades pretty useless will definetly diminish income from wards....
  • anoreksjaanoreksja Member Posts: 98 Arc User
    Little question, "Heart of fire enchantment rank 14" from mod 15 we will be able to exchange or upgrad to rank 15?
  • artifleurartifleur Member Posts: 642 Arc User
    > @anoreksja said:
    > Little question, "Heart of fire enchantment rank 14" from mod 15 we will be able to exchange or upgrad to rank 15?

    No.
  • adinosiiadinosii Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,271 Arc User
    anoreksja said:

    Little question, "Heart of fire enchantment rank 14" from mod 15 we will be able to exchange or upgrad to rank 15?

    It's not just the HoF enchantment, but also the anniversary one. But yes, it would be nice to be able to upgrade those two.



    Hoping for improvements...
  • lardesonlardeson Member Posts: 374 Arc User

    lardeson said:

    The exchanges are meant to BtA.

    There are too many different abuses, including changing bind status of bound enchants to unbound, that happen in an unbound system.

    For anyone who wants to change their enchants but wants unbound ones, trading with players/using the auction house is the way to go.

    Ehhhhh what? so you telling me my 30+ enchants i bought off the AH will be BtA? or that at mod16 someone will want to trade my feytouched for a vorpal without asking me to compensate the 10m Ad difference? ehhh nice joke. Sounds more like a lazy way of not doing things properly, cos im certain you guys could make a trade for BtA enchants and another for Unbound enchants. i can understand people cheating with weapon and armor enchants, but as for normal offense and defense enchants i cant see that. Also this is your compensation for literally making years of investment obsolette. If you proceed with this, instead of making 2 different trades for unbound and BtA, then make sure you allow this exchange feature in every mod. cheers.
    Here's an easy fix: limit the number of enchants that players can exchange. One armor and one weapon per character. While there will be some early market problems for people who bought enchants just to exchange them and aren't yet high enough to use them, it solves the problem of people trading in dozens of eclipse enchantments for barkshield and the like. Limit item enchants to the total number of slots available on maxed-out gear. Or, better yet, don't bind any of the non-armor/weapon enchants at all. A couple of weeks of market instability is fine if people feel the need to fire sale their enchants. This is another example of the game designers creating a solution for a problem that doesn't exist.
    that sounds good on paper but the issue is that you cant exploit the exchange for offense/defense slot enchants. You can only trade 1 stat enchant for another 1 stat, e.g. dark for radiant, azure, etc. these enchants on the AH are more or less the same prices. Now as for the weapon/armor enchants, that fix wouldn't work, i thought about it myself but the idiots could just still move the enchants to their alts and trade, and if you limit 1 per account, they'll cry about not being able to trade the enchants on their alts, which most of the time is a massive lie, as most of endgamers usually move their enchants between characters in order not to invest in multiples. In the first place there's a big issue with the enchants rework, which will make most of the "bis" enchants pretty useless in mod16, i bought my dread for 8m+ back then and its gonna be useless in mod16. In fact any enchants that reduces or adds certain generic stats such as defense, armor pen, crit, etc, will be useless, players balance their characters in a way they do not have to rely on external buffs to cap, and as far as we know, there are no negatives.

    But making them BtA is definitely not a fix either, cos lets assume i trade in my fey for a vorpal, in future mods, vorpal is reworked or becomes obsolette for w/e reasons, not only can i not trade it, but im forced to move it to my alt, which means you are just assuming i even play my alts enough as to give them an unpar enchant. It's a hard fix, but its one of the possible fixes. Although they could just cathegorize enchants as; Dps/Support (healer;tank), and actually make all enchants valuable, and save themselves a headache
    Lardeson CW not Mage. Where's my fireball and my thunderbolt?
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