Mod 15 - Tr and Gloaming Cut ( atwill dmg from stealth )

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Comments

  • pando83
    pando83 Member Posts: 2,562 Arc User
    edited October 2018
    GWFs learning to guess where TRs will be or will move is/was not game balance. It's player skill overcoming game design flows. Repeated it tons of times, and BiS PvP GWFs said the same thing too multiple times. The fact that we learned to adapt and compensate with skill what was a big game design flaw, does not mean it was "balanced".
    TR executing a rotation from stealth on an open target, and just learning to be less predictable, is 5% skill. GWF learning to anticipate the movements and guess where an invisible enemy is/ will be, plus timing perfectly it's powers to hit on a 0,5s window between dodge roll spam, is 80% skill.
    It's not balance. It's experienced players overcoming game design flows, and in these years i've read multiple BiS GWFs from beta stating that however, in a fight between a top TR and a top GWF, the TR got the upper hand. And it's been like this since years, not just 1 module. With peaks of stupidity such as the SE oneshot mechanic we got a few modules ago, and someone who wrote that it was ok and GWFs just got to use ring of invisibility, avalanche and jump to avoid being oneshotted by piercing SE. Perfectly balanced lol.

    About the video above: at that time, an unskilled TR vs the most skilled GWF could still deal some damage. An unskilled GWF vs even a normal TR, would land not even one hit, because to deal damage you got to: 1) learn to guess where the TR would be, and how he would move, while in stealth, because the TR could attack from stealth and stay invisible most of the time. If not invisible, it was using ITC; 2) perfectly time your CC in a fraction of a second window, keeping lag into account, because the TR could spam dodge roll and complement it with ITC; 3) have flawless build and a lot of gear just to absorb all the damage coming at you
    TRs just needed to have decent gear and simply execute a rotation, because they got all their tools from powers and feats, no need for tons of gear and no need to "learn to predict" and time powers in a window of 0,5s to avoid missing.

    That is not balance and you know it far too well.
  • schietindebux
    schietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    1. Sobek = best GWF those days maxed gear and
    2. ....2 vs 1 skilled hunter +GWF try to hunt down a TR and
    3. Lifesteal = much stronger that mod

    Do we talk about balance? That's no balance, it's skill vs overpowered class :)
  • leonidrex
    leonidrex Member Posts: 401 Arc User
    and wasnt gwf main defence ( lifesteal + temphp from tab ) nerfed by 75 or 60% in pvp? lol + wheel too and lion, preety much everything that could help against tr
  • percemer
    percemer Member, Neverwinter Moderator Posts: 632 Arc User
    edited October 2018
    This also applies here, as we often have to intervene.

    Hey folks! Please keep the tones civil and the conversation away from personal attacks/commentary. If threads become derailed to the point where we are having to edit/remove more than what's posted, we will close the feedback thread. This isn't something we want to do since feedback threads are valuable, but only when they remain constructive.

    Percemer
    EU Community Manager @ Gearbox Publishing
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  • schietindebux
    schietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    Nice to know there are not only player testing new content and class-balance but also some that do the communication in forum, we should get payed.
  • kalina311
    kalina311 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,079 Arc User
    edited October 2018
    Yes you can/ could predict Tr movements .. health pools drained slower in ealier mods making fights more drawn out in some cases ..or a big audio Q before a shocking execution came up ..etc

    However I know for a fact that certain players were not "predicting " they were actually taking advantage of certain graphic settings and item / enchantments special effects being rendered to actually "see" the tr

    hard target locking also works on the pc until the Tr runs out of range so at least you could get a direction scence prediction if they were running up stairs or pretending to go away etc

    also tagging / marking the tr with certain powers will give you an audio or visual Q if they were /are close

    all of this is pointless if there is no window to fight back or any counter play at all tho ..or ways to slowly whittle down the Tr heallth as well by not using broken procing items that you have to have been lucky enough to loot in pve
  • kalina311
    kalina311 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,079 Arc User
    edited October 2018
    This is the "predicting" "pro players are talking about cause they dont want their dirty little secrets out

    A good Tr knows that "good player' that is "truly" a threat to them is using these tricks
    and then the argument becomes from purists that the Tr class survivability / damage should not be nerfed based on the fact of people not knowing how to kill it / tricks and its a learn to play issue

    or teaming up on them using stealth reveal rings so the whole party can co or dinate and kill them .. this rarely happen in a pug solo match tho ..so the Tr gets very very high kill to death ratio cause of no co ordination by the other team
    and people left to fend so them selves on the nodes and not rotating their best possible team member to at least stale mate the tr

    tr stealth is not magic tho so placing an aura or power on them that is working as describe should be fair game

    if there were a power for example to cause the Tr to stink like a skunk ... if you goes stealth you can stil smell him right ? lol

    or a power to cause his head to glow or him to rattle like chains etc this get very meta gaming tho cause certain classe s dont have magic yet the can still "mark" and see the Tr

    anther example you could have a ring that makes you invisible but not your clothing and items too
    does tr invisibility / stealth ( game simulated ) automatically hide everything he / she is wearing and all the effects they are generating .. since his stealth by nature is not magical
  • ashbury#6333
    ashbury#6333 Member Posts: 66 Arc User
    I'll run a ring of vision and a ring of reflex sight in pvp. Just for the tricksters. Kind of crazy that's what I need to do for just one class but it is what it is. Oh, and itll work on those pathfinder archers too :)
  • slysnow#2290
    slysnow#2290 Member Posts: 110 Arc User
    I'm a CW and on ps4. Meaning if i can do this on a squishy asf cw other classes with things like stealth, healing, invulnerable e.t.c should have an easier time. For example, if i could incorporate stealth like a HR with my build i would never die to trs. Cws are slow. We can't run away from a tr. I stand and fight and essentially have no issue.

    That said I'll literally pull out a chair and sit during blood bath if I'm bored lol. I'll purposefully stay in SoD. Why? If you have proper mitigation SoD is only a CC on me but at the same time simultaneously is a new dps attack for me via deflect. I have watched trs hp melt by just standing in their own SoD.

    Timing: don't dodge until right at the end of blood bath. Most trs are visible right at the end so use the lion then. Perma stealth trs will move away from you and pop dc sigil and repeat sod, bb spam fest.

    Boons: hp and power boon vs trs.

    Trs are squishy. High deflect is your friend however you need the damage mitigation to go with it to survive. Last i checked ps4s leaderboard I've killed every tr on top 2 pages in a 1v1 situation while in dom. Trs are not as godly as some make them out to be. Then again, trs are mostly predictable and I'm sitting at 80% damage resist and 70% deflect chance whilst using negation. If i can do this as a cw and have no issues with like 99.5% of trs....
  • ashbury#6333
    ashbury#6333 Member Posts: 66 Arc User
    @slysnow#2290 you probably use your shield right?
  • slysnow#2290
    slysnow#2290 Member Posts: 110 Arc User
    edited October 2018
    > @ashbury#6333 said:
    > @slysnow#2290 you probably use your shield right?

    Shield has nothing to do with the aforementioned above. To answer your question it depends on what build i am using. Half the time i do not use it although it is essentially a mini negation (DR on a separate layer). I still have my same def stats without shield. The are situations where ray of enf offers more than shield.

    Also, most cws i see use shield/warp and get shredded before BB even finishes.

    Also: stealth, healing, invulnerable, and tanks shields are far superior to the cw shield which diminishes its value upon being hit, while in pvp
  • quickfoot#7851
    quickfoot#7851 Member Posts: 488 Arc User
    I was thinking, why not make stealth work more like it does in D&D? lol

    Make stealth in pvp work against an opposed Wis check, so Dex vs Wis, if TR loses, TR leaves stealth, or does not enter stealth. Maybe add a +1 to the TR's check for every 5 or 10 feet away from the other player he or she is. And recheck every second or two while the TR is in stealth. Also, on a failed check, the TR does not gain, or loses, CA, the 100% crit, and any other bonuses they would have, as in they do not persist after the TR has left stealth.

    This, in addition to the change they made to stealth in M15, where if they attack while in stealth, they leave stealth.


    While this in an of itself is not an end all solution to some issues with TR's, such as the double buffing of Invisible Infiltrator with Blood Bath, and no soft cap on recovery (which would affect all classes). I think it would make stealth much more in-line with D&D.

  • schietindebux
    schietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    Build arround one class never is a healthy thing by use off encounter or dailies you never would, run broken rings or others, same as stealth for TR's in NWO is different to what I witnessed in other games.
  • slysnow#2290
    slysnow#2290 Member Posts: 110 Arc User
    > @schietindebux said:
    > Build arround one class never is a healthy thing by use off encounter or dailies you never would, run broken rings or others, same as stealth for TR's in NWO is different to what I witnessed in other games.

    Proper mitigation isn't building around one class. The stats i mentioned previously counters burst damage in general i.e GFs high dps doesn't hit me hard. Piercing damage, mane, and the random big crit are the only things that take a sizable chunk of hp out. Even then, unless I'm being ganked, I'm back to full hp in seconds without needing a potion
  • someonedies
    someonedies Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,257 Arc User
    Bloodbath, SE = 0 HP. Nice.
    Rimuru?
    Dead 🔪
  • schietindebux
    schietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    TR can put all efforts into Power and recovery without much punishment, many player stopped building into DR but into deflect+HP for those reasons.
    If I can ignore Arp and crit, I get rewarded by stuff like Shepards Devotion far more having 50k+ power, lifesteal deals higher numbers, sure I forgot 10 other pro effects..., same as daily chaining having 20k recovery favours me on top, being invulnerable through BB (look at those "zeros").
    Atm a TR does not even need to invest much into deflect due to overpowered defense like ITC, dodge, BB, maybe that´s gonna change on mod 15, no clue.
    If a TR goes for max deflect +85% deflectseverity, those videos would look different.Not sure what deflect Brollax runs with, a video without knowing defense stats does not tell me everything about balance, same as I can´t tell what the good olf BB-SoD-build will be like in mod 15. Please build a TR with optimal defense and restart that test, like deflect 70%+
    At least they fixed double procs + from Invisible Infiltrator, but missed to fix Infiltrators Action/Razors Action .... half of the job as usual.

    *@slysnow not sure what TR´s in PS4 look like, but they seem to do a poor job , same as CW is not the worst class to counter a TR and some feats seem to be broken too on CW´s side if you look at those videos carefully.
  • crollax
    crollax Member Posts: 255 Arc User
    mate deflect tr cant do anything or kill anything at mod15, u have to be fully dps and make fully dps as a tr u need to build power reco in pvp , for pve crit,arp.

    tr got enough nerf to suffer me even i play without mistakes, but if u guyz still suffering from tr and if u stilll say tr is op, u better make one tr and come 1v1 me , i will make u sorry that u made tr or any skilled player [mod15] .

    and i also totally understand since 3 mod something sod op, i was away 2 and half mod , next mod u wont see any tr in domination even the ones which is there going to die fast belive me , just dont talk without knowing something verywell, because u can missdirect things same like so many player like u
  • demolitioninc#2453
    demolitioninc#2453 Member Posts: 108 Arc User
    @scarabman thx for reacting to this, rare case anyhow in PvP forums. But I do spot some issues in your suggestion fighting a TR with OP:
    1. Negation enchantment is okay but Eclipse is better. Why - well negation provides up to 40% damage resist - the OP sanctuary provides 80% - twice of negation. You can see in the video that he uses sanctuary but it didn't help at all ( I wonder if the TR has piercing damage bypassing all that).
    2. Absolution - yes can help but it is nerfed.
    3. Binding oath is good and provides at least a shield but also not great anymore.
    4. Burning light is a very dual edged sword in PvP. Most the time with TR's around you will be dazed while charging up burning light, interrupting it. I do not recommend using against TR or HR with all the dazes and stuns. Just try it again in todays matchmaking with 2x TR and HR on other team. You will never charge BL but be perma dazed/stunt. That at least was my experience yesterday again.
    5. Banes - are you kidding? How do you bane an invisible TR?
    6. Shielding strike is good - again - look at all the daze he got - there was not enough time to finish a full 3 swing rotation on shielding strike w/o getting dazed.
    7. Yes they are free heals from mounts - I know for a fact Tery has them all - but when you get killed in a matter of less 10 seconds, how do mount heals help you.

    OP's used to be node holders in PvP, they where hard to kill, which offsets the strategic disadvantage off not being able to break from a fight (like dodges, sprints, teleports, slides) or having immunity frames. But with the nerf to shields and TW they are mostly sitting ducks for everybody.
    1. PzkwVI_Kingtiger - GWF
    2. PMS-Extreme - Moffus Debuffos
    3. Tiamat's Toyboy - OP
    4. Rent-A-DC - 1 GMOP per 30 minutes
    5. Officer at Civil Anarchy, Member of Fabled Alliance
  • schietindebux
    schietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited October 2018
    @crollax
    If there is no TR at all playing PVP next mod or not, I won´t feel sorry or happy, maybe some GWF will be happy in case there are any left.
    And About SoD being too much the last 3 mods... 400k SoD on a OP/tank at 16k IL is nothing to worry about...
    Before those 3 mods, there were many other "cooky cutter builds" like: "perma-stealth", "perma daze" or "oneshooter-honk-builds".
    That "trash-modus" in PVP last on for ages now and noone really cares about the state of PVP any more honestly, same as these threads are from no value or interest to anyone.
    Only thing to comment or react is to mirror some 110% TR how stupid this class acts in PVP for .... >10 mods now without a break.
    About that comment -> TR got to go full dps, no option to go high deflect...simply lol.
    You did not even try, same as i saw one build (Mi-sab) tested in PVP, telling us afterwards the class is fixed.
    Just stop pointing at your superiority in every thread you post, it just sounds stupid and noone takes it for real and it does not make any of your comments more valid.

    And about SoD...did they fix it? I bet no, you still can mark a maxed OP and focus on that 9k IL, transferring every single damage towards OP, key feature.. capstone..broken..stupid game, isn´t it?
    I even don´t main that class and pointed at several bugs, same as I do with classes I do play ... since getting balanced in a bugged state and being fixed afterwards hits hard sometimes.
    Nothing you share in your comments helps in any way to fix that class, you even don´t mention it, either having no clue or being biased.
  • slysnow#2290
    slysnow#2290 Member Posts: 110 Arc User

    TR can put all efforts into Power and recovery without much punishment, many player stopped building into DR but into deflect+HP for those reasons.
    If I can ignore Arp and crit, I get rewarded by stuff like Shepards Devotion far more having 50k+ power, lifesteal deals higher numbers, sure I forgot 10 other pro effects..., same as daily chaining having 20k recovery favours me on top, being invulnerable through BB (look at those "zeros").
    Atm a TR does not even need to invest much into deflect due to overpowered defense like ITC, dodge, BB, maybe that´s gonna change on mod 15, no clue.
    If a TR goes for max deflect +85% deflectseverity, those videos would look different.Not sure what deflect Brollax runs with, a video without knowing defense stats does not tell me everything about balance, same as I can´t tell what the good olf BB-SoD-build will be like in mod 15. Please build a TR with optimal defense and restart that test, like deflect 70%+
    At least they fixed double procs + from Invisible Infiltrator, but missed to fix Infiltrators Action/Razors Action .... half of the job as usual.

    *@slysnow not sure what TR´s in PS4 look like, but they seem to do a poor job , same as CW is not the worst class to counter a TR and some feats seem to be broken too on CW´s side if you look at those videos carefully.

    The same cookie cutter TR build has been posted online awhile ago. Any TR can find it. TR is also a easy class to use/figure out compared to others (especially a PvP TR), but im not here to defend a class. His videos are a representation of mod 15. Nothing is broken on CW, our base damage has increased. From the PvE side CWs are likely tied for worst with TRs (don't really know as I fully quit pve after River District).

    Regardless mitigation actually matters. But people for some reason have not figured it out. 100% deflect chance with high hp is not better than high DR + high deflect. You need to have the DR to go with the deflect. If it is true that when you receive damage it first hits your DR then Chance Deflect before your hp that means the following:

    assume a 100k hit to a 80% DR + 50% Deflect chance toon:

    100k hit is reduced by 80%. It is now down to 20k hit. That 20k damage now has a 50% chance to be deflected with 60% severity. If you fail to deflect you take all 20k damage, if you deflect then you only take 8k damage.

    alternatively lets assume you have the typical 30% DR but 100% deflect chance on the same 100k hit.

    100k hit is reduced by 30%. It is now down to 70k. 100% deflect means it will succeed. At 60% severity take 40% of that 70k meaning you take 28k damage.

    High DR = 20k hit maximum (if you deflect 8k hit)
    High deflect = 28k hit

    Which of the two is better for survivability? Again, all damage on my CW is baby dps. Only high burst crits, and piercing can deal 5-10% of my HP as damage and even then I typically heal through it. Proper mitigation isnt stacking against one particular class. Proper mitigation counters high burst damage. GWFs, SWs, OPs, other CWs, DCs, GFs, HRs, and all but 2 TRs thus far cannot kill me solo. It is at a point where for me to die (if im using my tank build) it requires a gank. That is attainable with proper mitigation and works vs trs and high burst gfs.
  • leonidrex
    leonidrex Member Posts: 401 Arc User

    TR can put all efforts into Power and recovery without much punishment, many player stopped building into DR but into deflect+HP for those reasons.
    If I can ignore Arp and crit, I get rewarded by stuff like Shepards Devotion far more having 50k+ power, lifesteal deals higher numbers, sure I forgot 10 other pro effects..., same as daily chaining having 20k recovery favours me on top, being invulnerable through BB (look at those "zeros").
    Atm a TR does not even need to invest much into deflect due to overpowered defense like ITC, dodge, BB, maybe that´s gonna change on mod 15, no clue.
    If a TR goes for max deflect +85% deflectseverity, those videos would look different.Not sure what deflect Brollax runs with, a video without knowing defense stats does not tell me everything about balance, same as I can´t tell what the good olf BB-SoD-build will be like in mod 15. Please build a TR with optimal defense and restart that test, like deflect 70%+
    At least they fixed double procs + from Invisible Infiltrator, but missed to fix Infiltrators Action/Razors Action .... half of the job as usual.

    *@slysnow not sure what TR´s in PS4 look like, but they seem to do a poor job , same as CW is not the worst class to counter a TR and some feats seem to be broken too on CW´s side if you look at those videos carefully.

    The same cookie cutter TR build has been posted online awhile ago. Any TR can find it. TR is also a easy class to use/figure out compared to others (especially a PvP TR), but im not here to defend a class. His videos are a representation of mod 15. Nothing is broken on CW, our base damage has increased. From the PvE side CWs are likely tied for worst with TRs (don't really know as I fully quit pve after River District).

    Regardless mitigation actually matters. But people for some reason have not figured it out. 100% deflect chance with high hp is not better than high DR + high deflect. You need to have the DR to go with the deflect. If it is true that when you receive damage it first hits your DR then Chance Deflect before your hp that means the following:

    assume a 100k hit to a 80% DR + 50% Deflect chance toon:

    100k hit is reduced by 80%. It is now down to 20k hit. That 20k damage now has a 50% chance to be deflected with 60% severity. If you fail to deflect you take all 20k damage, if you deflect then you only take 8k damage.

    alternatively lets assume you have the typical 30% DR but 100% deflect chance on the same 100k hit.

    100k hit is reduced by 30%. It is now down to 70k. 100% deflect means it will succeed. At 60% severity take 40% of that 70k meaning you take 28k damage.

    High DR = 20k hit maximum (if you deflect 8k hit)
    High deflect = 28k hit

    Which of the two is better for survivability? Again, all damage on my CW is baby dps. Only high burst crits, and piercing can deal 5-10% of my HP as damage and even then I typically heal through it. Proper mitigation isnt stacking against one particular class. Proper mitigation counters high burst damage. GWFs, SWs, OPs, other CWs, DCs, GFs, HRs, and all but 2 TRs thus far cannot kill me solo. It is at a point where for me to die (if im using my tank build) it requires a gank. That is attainable with proper mitigation and works vs trs and high burst gfs.
    tell that to my 190% damage res paladin getting hit for 200k+ by tr with 800 armor pen. o/ brolax.
    as i said in earlier posts. my damage res is more usefull against gwf with 25k armor pen then against tR with 0.

  • schietindebux
    schietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited October 2018

    TR can put all efforts into Power and recovery without much punishment, many player stopped building into DR but into deflect+HP for those reasons.
    If I can ignore Arp and crit, I get rewarded by stuff like Shepards Devotion far more having 50k+ power, lifesteal deals higher numbers, sure I forgot 10 other pro effects..., same as daily chaining having 20k recovery favours me on top, being invulnerable through BB (look at those "zeros").
    Atm a TR does not even need to invest much into deflect due to overpowered defense like ITC, dodge, BB, maybe that´s gonna change on mod 15, no clue.
    If a TR goes for max deflect +85% deflectseverity, those videos would look different.Not sure what deflect Brollax runs with, a video without knowing defense stats does not tell me everything about balance, same as I can´t tell what the good olf BB-SoD-build will be like in mod 15. Please build a TR with optimal defense and restart that test, like deflect 70%+
    At least they fixed double procs + from Invisible Infiltrator, but missed to fix Infiltrators Action/Razors Action .... half of the job as usual.

    *@slysnow not sure what TR´s in PS4 look like, but they seem to do a poor job , same as CW is not the worst class to counter a TR and some feats seem to be broken too on CW´s side if you look at those videos carefully.

    The same cookie cutter TR build has been posted online awhile ago. Any TR can find it. TR is also a easy class to use/figure out compared to others (especially a PvP TR), but im not here to defend a class. His videos are a representation of mod 15. Nothing is broken on CW, our base damage has increased. From the PvE side CWs are likely tied for worst with TRs (don't really know as I fully quit pve after River District).

    Regardless mitigation actually matters. But people for some reason have not figured it out. 100% deflect chance with high hp is not better than high DR + high deflect. You need to have the DR to go with the deflect. If it is true that when you receive damage it first hits your DR then Chance Deflect before your hp that means the following:

    assume a 100k hit to a 80% DR + 50% Deflect chance toon:

    100k hit is reduced by 80%. It is now down to 20k hit. That 20k damage now has a 50% chance to be deflected with 60% severity. If you fail to deflect you take all 20k damage, if you deflect then you only take 8k damage.

    alternatively lets assume you have the typical 30% DR but 100% deflect chance on the same 100k hit.

    100k hit is reduced by 30%. It is now down to 70k. 100% deflect means it will succeed. At 60% severity take 40% of that 70k meaning you take 28k damage.

    High DR = 20k hit maximum (if you deflect 8k hit)
    High deflect = 28k hit

    Which of the two is better for survivability? Again, all damage on my CW is baby dps. Only high burst crits, and piercing can deal 5-10% of my HP as damage and even then I typically heal through it. Proper mitigation isnt stacking against one particular class. Proper mitigation counters high burst damage. GWFs, SWs, OPs, other CWs, DCs, GFs, HRs, and all but 2 TRs thus far cannot kill me solo. It is at a point where for me to die (if im using my tank build) it requires a gank. That is attainable with proper mitigation and works vs trs and high burst gfs.
    Stormfury, maybe not broken but obviously the go for CW vs TR ->video "I skip it, if it´s too strong"
    leonidrex said:

    TR can put all efforts into Power and recovery without much punishment, many player stopped building into DR but into deflect+HP for those reasons.
    If I can ignore Arp and crit, I get rewarded by stuff like Shepards Devotion far more having 50k+ power, lifesteal deals higher numbers, sure I forgot 10 other pro effects..., same as daily chaining having 20k recovery favours me on top, being invulnerable through BB (look at those "zeros").
    Atm a TR does not even need to invest much into deflect due to overpowered defense like ITC, dodge, BB, maybe that´s gonna change on mod 15, no clue.
    If a TR goes for max deflect +85% deflectseverity, those videos would look different.Not sure what deflect Brollax runs with, a video without knowing defense stats does not tell me everything about balance, same as I can´t tell what the good olf BB-SoD-build will be like in mod 15. Please build a TR with optimal defense and restart that test, like deflect 70%+
    At least they fixed double procs + from Invisible Infiltrator, but missed to fix Infiltrators Action/Razors Action .... half of the job as usual.

    *@slysnow not sure what TR´s in PS4 look like, but they seem to do a poor job , same as CW is not the worst class to counter a TR and some feats seem to be broken too on CW´s side if you look at those videos carefully.

    The same cookie cutter TR build has been posted online awhile ago. Any TR can find it. TR is also a easy class to use/figure out compared to others (especially a PvP TR), but im not here to defend a class. His videos are a representation of mod 15. Nothing is broken on CW, our base damage has increased. From the PvE side CWs are likely tied for worst with TRs (don't really know as I fully quit pve after River District).

    Regardless mitigation actually matters. But people for some reason have not figured it out. 100% deflect chance with high hp is not better than high DR + high deflect. You need to have the DR to go with the deflect. If it is true that when you receive damage it first hits your DR then Chance Deflect before your hp that means the following:

    assume a 100k hit to a 80% DR + 50% Deflect chance toon:

    100k hit is reduced by 80%. It is now down to 20k hit. That 20k damage now has a 50% chance to be deflected with 60% severity. If you fail to deflect you take all 20k damage, if you deflect then you only take 8k damage.

    alternatively lets assume you have the typical 30% DR but 100% deflect chance on the same 100k hit.

    100k hit is reduced by 30%. It is now down to 70k. 100% deflect means it will succeed. At 60% severity take 40% of that 70k meaning you take 28k damage.

    High DR = 20k hit maximum (if you deflect 8k hit)
    High deflect = 28k hit

    Which of the two is better for survivability? Again, all damage on my CW is baby dps. Only high burst crits, and piercing can deal 5-10% of my HP as damage and even then I typically heal through it. Proper mitigation isnt stacking against one particular class. Proper mitigation counters high burst damage. GWFs, SWs, OPs, other CWs, DCs, GFs, HRs, and all but 2 TRs thus far cannot kill me solo. It is at a point where for me to die (if im using my tank build) it requires a gank. That is attainable with proper mitigation and works vs trs and high burst gfs.
    tell that to my 190% damage res paladin getting hit for 200k+ by tr with 800 armor pen. o/ brolax.
    as i said in earlier posts. my damage res is more usefull against gwf with 25k armor pen then against tR with 0.

    Maybe due to SoD bug? mark tank and slay tht noob with zero defence.
    Guess there are other ways for TR to ignore your defence from feats, same as the class itself can mulitplie his damage from feats to pretty high numbers.


    What I think in general, or what I miss are posts about a class known to be broken in PVP for ages and known to have bugs on top.
    I can´t take anyone serious that runs arround with zero defence or deflect on his class, showing once 200k+ hits with one "At Will" and trying to make me believe the other day everything is fine, being killed by coincidence or by simply missing the needed attention/defense.
    Just pointing in 110% of my posts how superior my knowledge and playstyle is but remaining silent about mayor issues of the class, regarding bugs and tons of other stuff doesn`t look like "knowledge" at all.

    TR needs attention, but to get to a solution there is more needed than this.
    Actual rework and nerf is not related to PVP issues.
    I think, all that needed to be done was "fix bugs/malfunctions first and balance class afterwards". In PVE the class is nerfed due to an overperforming powerloop. Whirlwind of Blades or others did not take basepower into account leading to 800k+power in some constellations.
    Statinflation due to malfunctions or not adressed issues about a classpower, you can see the same effects in power scaling with insignia boni, leading to silly stats like 20k DR/Dflect etc.
    In the end devs think : "Ahhhh, all classes are tanky as HAMSTER, hmmm 80% DR + 40k Deflect is standart.. Bob maybe go and give Strahd the option to hit everyone in the group for 800k, I think that might solve the issue in short"
    There might have been other solutions if small things would have been adressed first.
    But devs thought: "Ahhh, ALL TR´s run with 800k power all day long ", since they monitored 600mio+SoD hits and many hdps builds popped up same as onephase videos, despite everyone in official forum denies that there is an issue....
    Post edited by schietindebux on
  • leonidrex
    leonidrex Member Posts: 401 Arc User
    @schietindebux i ment bloodbath, but SoD bug is aids too. Gl fighting a 5v5 in a node against 2 tr as OP. even if you are not focused you will keep getting hit for 100k+ random sods. I preety much have to bane TR 3 times before he can go invisible or else its gonna hurt alot :D also, all hail 100% slow CB

  • skatopsixos7
    skatopsixos7 Member Posts: 45 Arc User

    TR can put all efforts into Power and recovery without much punishment, many player stopped building into DR but into deflect+HP for those reasons.
    If I can ignore Arp and crit, I get rewarded by stuff like Shepards Devotion far more having 50k+ power, lifesteal deals higher numbers, sure I forgot 10 other pro effects..., same as daily chaining having 20k recovery favours me on top, being invulnerable through BB (look at those "zeros").
    Atm a TR does not even need to invest much into deflect due to overpowered defense like ITC, dodge, BB, maybe that´s gonna change on mod 15, no clue.
    If a TR goes for max deflect +85% deflectseverity, those videos would look different.Not sure what deflect Brollax runs with, a video without knowing defense stats does not tell me everything about balance, same as I can´t tell what the good olf BB-SoD-build will be like in mod 15. Please build a TR with optimal defense and restart that test, like deflect 70%+
    At least they fixed double procs + from Invisible Infiltrator, but missed to fix Infiltrators Action/Razors Action .... half of the job as usual.

    *@slysnow not sure what TR´s in PS4 look like, but they seem to do a poor job , same as CW is not the worst class to counter a TR and some feats seem to be broken too on CW´s side if you look at those videos carefully.

    The same cookie cutter TR build has been posted online awhile ago. Any TR can find it. TR is also a easy class to use/figure out compared to others (especially a PvP TR), but im not here to defend a class. His videos are a representation of mod 15. Nothing is broken on CW, our base damage has increased. From the PvE side CWs are likely tied for worst with TRs (don't really know as I fully quit pve after River District).

    Regardless mitigation actually matters. But people for some reason have not figured it out. 100% deflect chance with high hp is not better than high DR + high deflect. You need to have the DR to go with the deflect. If it is true that when you receive damage it first hits your DR then Chance Deflect before your hp that means the following:

    assume a 100k hit to a 80% DR + 50% Deflect chance toon:

    100k hit is reduced by 80%. It is now down to 20k hit. That 20k damage now has a 50% chance to be deflected with 60% severity. If you fail to deflect you take all 20k damage, if you deflect then you only take 8k damage.

    alternatively lets assume you have the typical 30% DR but 100% deflect chance on the same 100k hit.

    100k hit is reduced by 30%. It is now down to 70k. 100% deflect means it will succeed. At 60% severity take 40% of that 70k meaning you take 28k damage.

    High DR = 20k hit maximum (if you deflect 8k hit)
    High deflect = 28k hit

    Which of the two is better for survivability? Again, all damage on my CW is baby dps. Only high burst crits, and piercing can deal 5-10% of my HP as damage and even then I typically heal through it. Proper mitigation isnt stacking against one particular class. Proper mitigation counters high burst damage. GWFs, SWs, OPs, other CWs, DCs, GFs, HRs, and all but 2 TRs thus far cannot kill me solo. It is at a point where for me to die (if im using my tank build) it requires a gank. That is attainable with proper mitigation and works vs trs and high burst gfs.
    Stormfury, maybe not broken but obviously the go for CW vs TR ->video "I skip it, if it´s too strong"
    leonidrex said:

    TR can put all efforts into Power and recovery without much punishment, many player stopped building into DR but into deflect+HP for those reasons.
    If I can ignore Arp and crit, I get rewarded by stuff like Shepards Devotion far more having 50k+ power, lifesteal deals higher numbers, sure I forgot 10 other pro effects..., same as daily chaining having 20k recovery favours me on top, being invulnerable through BB (look at those "zeros").
    Atm a TR does not even need to invest much into deflect due to overpowered defense like ITC, dodge, BB, maybe that´s gonna change on mod 15, no clue.
    If a TR goes for max deflect +85% deflectseverity, those videos would look different.Not sure what deflect Brollax runs with, a video without knowing defense stats does not tell me everything about balance, same as I can´t tell what the good olf BB-SoD-build will be like in mod 15. Please build a TR with optimal defense and restart that test, like deflect 70%+
    At least they fixed double procs + from Invisible Infiltrator, but missed to fix Infiltrators Action/Razors Action .... half of the job as usual.

    *@slysnow not sure what TR´s in PS4 look like, but they seem to do a poor job , same as CW is not the worst class to counter a TR and some feats seem to be broken too on CW´s side if you look at those videos carefully.

    The same cookie cutter TR build has been posted online awhile ago. Any TR can find it. TR is also a easy class to use/figure out compared to others (especially a PvP TR), but im not here to defend a class. His videos are a representation of mod 15. Nothing is broken on CW, our base damage has increased. From the PvE side CWs are likely tied for worst with TRs (don't really know as I fully quit pve after River District).

    Regardless mitigation actually matters. But people for some reason have not figured it out. 100% deflect chance with high hp is not better than high DR + high deflect. You need to have the DR to go with the deflect. If it is true that when you receive damage it first hits your DR then Chance Deflect before your hp that means the following:

    assume a 100k hit to a 80% DR + 50% Deflect chance toon:

    100k hit is reduced by 80%. It is now down to 20k hit. That 20k damage now has a 50% chance to be deflected with 60% severity. If you fail to deflect you take all 20k damage, if you deflect then you only take 8k damage.

    alternatively lets assume you have the typical 30% DR but 100% deflect chance on the same 100k hit.

    100k hit is reduced by 30%. It is now down to 70k. 100% deflect means it will succeed. At 60% severity take 40% of that 70k meaning you take 28k damage.

    High DR = 20k hit maximum (if you deflect 8k hit)
    High deflect = 28k hit

    Which of the two is better for survivability? Again, all damage on my CW is baby dps. Only high burst crits, and piercing can deal 5-10% of my HP as damage and even then I typically heal through it. Proper mitigation isnt stacking against one particular class. Proper mitigation counters high burst damage. GWFs, SWs, OPs, other CWs, DCs, GFs, HRs, and all but 2 TRs thus far cannot kill me solo. It is at a point where for me to die (if im using my tank build) it requires a gank. That is attainable with proper mitigation and works vs trs and high burst gfs.
    tell that to my 190% damage res paladin getting hit for 200k+ by tr with 800 armor pen. o/ brolax.
    as i said in earlier posts. my damage res is more usefull against gwf with 25k armor pen then against tR with 0.

    Maybe due to SoD bug? mark tank and slay tht noob with zero defence.
    Guess there are other ways for TR to ignore your defence from feats, same as the class itself can mulitplie his damage from feats to pretty high numbers.


    What I think in general, or what I miss are posts about a class known to be broken in PVP for ages and known to have bugs on top.
    I can´t take anyone serious that runs arround with zero defence or deflect on his class, showing once 200k+ hits with one "At Will" and trying to make me believe the other day everything is fine, being killed by coincidence or by simply missing the needed attention/defense.
    Just pointing in 110% of my posts how superior my knowledge and playstyle is but remaining silent about mayor issues of the class, regarding bugs and tons of other stuff doesn`t look like "knowledge" at all.

    TR needs attention, but to get to a solution there is more needed than this.
    Actual rework and nerf is not related to PVP issues.
    I think, all that needed to be done was "fix bugs/malfunctions first and balance class afterwards". In PVE the class is nerfed due to an overperforming powerloop. Whirlwind of Blades or others did not take basepower into account leading to 800k+power in some constellations.
    Statinflation due to malfunctions or not adressed issues about a classpower, you can see the same effects in power scaling with insignia boni, leading to silly stats like 20k DR/Dflect etc.
    In the end devs think : "Ahhhh, all classes are tanky as HAMSTER, hmmm 80% DR + 40k Deflect is standart.. Bob maybe go and give Strahd the option to hit everyone in the group for 800k, I think that might solve the issue in short"
    There might have been other solutions if small things would have been adressed first.
    But devs thought: "Ahhh, ALL TR´s run with 800k power all day long ", since they monitored 600mio+SoD hits and many hdps builds popped up same as onephase videos, despite everyone in official forum denies that there is an issue....
    Uhmm yah, you don't know what you are talking about mate..
    all that post that essentialy shows me how little you about the tr class.

  • kreatyve
    kreatyve Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 10,539 Community Moderator
    edited October 2018
    The thread has been cleaned (obviously). Please keep the PvP in game and not on the forums. If you can not provide your feedback without insulting your fellow players, then please provide your feedback somewhere else. Thanks.

    Edit: After some discussion with my fellow mods, we have decided to just close the thread, as it has been taking up too much time to continuously clean.


    Post edited by kreatyve on
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