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T9 and CoDG - 16K is not good enough

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  • hercules125hercules125 Member Posts: 427 Arc User
    Yeah, I've noticed that when T9G first came out, everyone was wanting 15k+. Now it's inched its way up to 16k. Not at all surprising that it will increase even more - the leets want to run with leets. Unfortunately, when Castle Ravenloft comes out, T9G will rarely be run, and the leets will want even more IL for that dungeon.
  • icingdeath1#7564 icingdeath1 Member Posts: 14 Arc User
    Pretty much. I'm a 14.4k IL hunter ranger in a GH 14. Waiting on summer sale for huge improvement to character. I think I do pretty good damage, have run both FBI and MSP pretty well in guild/alliance and PUG groups. Have yet to run T9 or CoDG. I guess I need to be looking for GH 20 for max boons.
  • pitshadepitshade Member Posts: 5,590 Arc User
    It helps to think of it as this, people don't base IL requirements on what is necessary to complete the content. Not even to complete the content in a short time. They are simply asking for the highest number they think they can get away with and still get people.
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User

    There is an ever widening gap between those that will always be BIS within day or weeks, and those that will never be able to achieve this. I don't have a problem with lfg looking for very high IL entrance requirements, the problem is that its nigh on impossible to ever do this content with anything but maxed IL and the meta, anything else leads to failure. It's as if all the new content is made for less than 1% of the player base, and the rest of the players will never be able to complete even a single one of these new crazy dungeons.

    Meta group is over rated. A few minutes is all that is shaved off the time of any content vs. running a different setup. In fact, some runs I did without running the meta had faster and better results. Typically I can do T9 with a meta group in under 20 minutes. Some none meta groups we were hitting 15 minutes - sometimes extra damage does outweigh extra buffing if you bring along the right player with the correct build.

    It is all about how players view things and what they feel they require to beat content. In other games more DPS are required as buffs and debuffs do not stack encouraging more DPS vs. more buffers and debuffers. This game offers stacking and it is why buffing is so important and why the devs are slowly trying to remove double class stacking buffs such as Weapon of Light and Beart your Sin for example. These changes open the door for some group makeup changes but the double DC setup still outweighs bringing along a buffing CW or SW.

    I rarely use LFG to get into content. I just wanted to see if things have changed over the past year or so or if overall players are still looking at IL as a way to measure a player ability to produce damage in content. IL is still a driving factor to form groups and it is sad to see this. I mean after witnessing a 14K GWF doubling the damage of a 18K GWF in FBI and than doing the same in T9 without either one taking the damage buff on Orcus. IL means jack if you cannot play your class effectively.
  • wintersmokewintersmoke Member Posts: 1,641 Arc User
    adinosii said:

    > @clericalist said:

    > ... the problem is that its nigh on impossible to ever do this content with anything but maxed IL and the meta, anything else leads to failure. It's as if all the new content is made for less than 1% of the player base, and the rest of the players will never be able to complete even a single one of these new crazy dungeons.



    While I am personally close to BiS (well, over 18K IL), I strongly disagree with this. Sure, a top-end group can burn through the content faster (say, do ToNG in 18 minutes or less). but a more "average" group can do the content just fine...it will just take longer. Knowing what to do is simply more important than the stats of the players.



    To be fair, a group of inexperienced players with minimal gear and substandard skills will have problems, and probably not be able to finish at all - but that is just perfect and absolutely fine.



    Unless the game is changed to allow players to select the difficulty (and reward) level of each dungeon, this is how it has to be.

    And the new players are supposed to get experience... how, exactly? They used to get it from LFG. According to OP, that is impossible now.
  • spidey#3367 spidey Member Posts: 400 Arc User
    edited May 2018


    And the new players are supposed to get experience... how, exactly?

    And why excactly should a new player try to join the highest dungeon? I think a "new" player should get dungeon experiences in lower dungeons. Dont you think?
    I allways thought the LFG channel is for ppl who dont like to be in a guild or in a FL. They prefare to play this game in single player modus. I dont get why, bc this is a MMOPRG and so i assume you have to play with ppl instead to try to archieve everything ingame solo...
    And......whats the problem to try to build your own group in LFG Channel like: "Need help. Got enough GS for TONG but i was never in there. Someone can help me plz?" Believe me...if i read such thing in LFG i will replay to him/her and try to help. But tbh also....i still dont get it what does this help in long terms of playing, if the player dont try to get some friends or a guild ingame...
  • wintersmokewintersmoke Member Posts: 1,641 Arc User


    And the new players are supposed to get experience... how, exactly?

    And why excactly should a new player try to join the highest dungeon? I think a "new" player should get dungeon experiences in lower dungeons. Dont you think?
    I allways thought the LFG channel is for ppl who dont like to be in a guild or in a FL. They prefare to play this game in single player modus. I dont get why, bc this is a MMOPRG and so i assume you have to play with ppl instead to try to archieve everything ingame solo...
    And......whats the problem to try to build your own group in LFG Channel like: "Need help. Got enough GS for TONG but i was never in there. Someone can help me plz?" Believe me...if i read such thing in LFG i will replay to him/her and try to help. But tbh also....i still dont get it what does this help in long terms of playing, if the player dont try to get some friends or a guild ingame...
    My bad. I should have phrased that better. Newly 16k, or whatever the requirement is, and fresh of the chult hunts. In other words, new to ToNG.
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User
    edited May 2018

    adinosii said:

    > @clericalist said:

    > ... the problem is that its nigh on impossible to ever do this content with anything but maxed IL and the meta, anything else leads to failure. It's as if all the new content is made for less than 1% of the player base, and the rest of the players will never be able to complete even a single one of these new crazy dungeons.



    While I am personally close to BiS (well, over 18K IL), I strongly disagree with this. Sure, a top-end group can burn through the content faster (say, do ToNG in 18 minutes or less). but a more "average" group can do the content just fine...it will just take longer. Knowing what to do is simply more important than the stats of the players.



    To be fair, a group of inexperienced players with minimal gear and substandard skills will have problems, and probably not be able to finish at all - but that is just perfect and absolutely fine.



    Unless the game is changed to allow players to select the difficulty (and reward) level of each dungeon, this is how it has to be.

    And the new players are supposed to get experience... how, exactly? They used to get it from LFG. According to OP, that is impossible now.
    anyone that is actually capable of completing tong gear wise. (there is a dps check. unless you have someone carrying you who is super buff (and even then) you're not going to be able to get past orcus if you are under geared/strong) is probably going to be part of a guild. so guild runs are going to be the answer. if you're under geared lfg is still going to find you some failed runs where you can kind of learn the mechanics.
  • clericalistclericalist Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 595 Arc User
    I don't know if this was mentioned already by somebody here, if not I have to add that with the next module tong and codg will be practically dead zones (codg is arguably already dead as one can queue for an hour and still not find a pug). The people that could do these will move on, and then you will have content that basically nobody will be doing, the same applies to the spellplague, fangbreaker and svaborg.
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,560 Arc User

    I don't know if this was mentioned already by somebody here, if not I have to add that with the next module tong and codg will be practically dead zones (codg is arguably already dead as one can queue for an hour and still not find a pug). The people that could do these will move on, and then you will have content that basically nobody will be doing, the same applies to the spellplague, fangbreaker and svaborg.

    Not PUGing it doesn't mean not doing it.
    Why would anyone PUG end-game content when there are better alternatives?
  • namelesshero347namelesshero347 Member Posts: 2,109 Arc User
    Why would ToNG and CoDG be dead zones when it is the only place you can grind UES.
  • heraldfayez#8520 heraldfayez Member Posts: 227 Arc User

    I decided to check on how long it took to form a group or join a group for T9 and CoDG on my 16K CW.

    Trying to join a group was a nightmare. Apparently 16K is not good enough for the community as a CW even if you play as a Buff CW.

    Forming groups were just as bad. I always go for the DC and tank first. Every tank or DC I picked up would quit and when I asked why, many stated, you are not 17K.

    So 16K is not acceptable now for T9 or CoDG apparently. And players leave the Q rather quickly if you are not 17K forming the group, even if you are running as a buffer.

    This is unacceptable behavior and it is why many players quit the game, because the community mindset is IL = ability to complete content. I beat t9 on my GF with a group that was all under 15K. It took us an hour but we did it with no wipes on Orcus.

    lmao my entire runs were never with full 17K team ( rarely it ever happen) and we only do speed runsfor the dungeon if someone leaves party because of item level then i'm so glad they did that ^^ as it proves they are not worth wasting time with in dungeon item level has and will always be an inaccurate measure for player's skill specially on classes that require no gearing up like DO DC practicly all support except AC DC who needs good amount of base power don't need that much of a gear to function properly
  • dressrobadressroba Member Posts: 70 Arc User
    you can run tong with 11 k groupe but you need exp ppl + right builds and right set of powers.
    i had faster runs with 12 k than with 16 k groupes .
    exp metter alot and having the builds and using the right powers tooo . i did 19 min tong with a groupe of 12-14k il and i was the only one 16k as main dps . and had groupe of full 15 k + that did it in 40 min + .
    a 12k-14k groupe can do tong in 20-30 min they just need to know what to do .
  • adinosiiadinosii Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,294 Arc User

    I don't know if this was mentioned already by somebody here, if not I have to add that with the next module tong and codg will be practically dead zones

    I disagree. Sure, I (and many others will switch over to the Mod 14 content when it is released, but that is just to finish the campaign and get the boons - then it is back to ToNG and CoDG for me.

    The reason, well
    • Castle Ravenloft does not have anything that would be a real upgrade for me.
    • What I mostly need now to upgrade my gear are some UES - and ToNG/CoDG will give me those.
    • Other content in Barovia may be fun - the hunts are a big improvement over the Chult hunts, for example, but the rewards are just not interesting - not worth doing for me.
    Of course, there are classes/builds where some of the new Barovia gear is effectively BiS - and there will be player focusing on obtaining that gear, bot for many players, getting all the UES you need for a full set of R14 enchants is a time-consuming task, and farming CoDG may be the most effective way to get those.

    Hoping for improvements...
  • asterotgasterotg Member Posts: 1,742 Arc User
    How comes, that someone 'has to do X' or is an elitist bc he does not do Y. I play for fun, as should everyone else do. If a friend asks for help and I have time on my hands, I will try to carry a bunch of low IL players in Tong and waste a few hours. If I want a few quick farm runs, I will look at my FL and in my guild for a well build and geared group. To put it bluntly, I dont have to do HAMSTER and other players likewise.

    I hate this entitlement some players feel and express against other players. My main was a 17k+ CW, due to the fact, that we lacked GFs and DCs I equipped these two classes with similar gear. WHY should I HAVE to run with a 11k IL DPS, when I own a 17k DPS? I Knew some players, who exclusively grouped with other BIS players, arguing, that they did spent hours grinding and equipping their chars for maximum effect and they expect the same level of dedication and gear from the other players. While I dont share this belief, I can respect it and some ppl would have a better experience, if they would show other ppl the same tolerance they want to be shown. I wont spent my nights crying about other ppl building groups without me, dont claim, someone is XYZ, bc he does not want to group with you.
    Chars: CW, DC, GF, GWF, HR and TR.
  • wintersmokewintersmoke Member Posts: 1,641 Arc User
    asterotg said:

    How comes, that someone 'has to do X' or is an elitist bc he does not do Y. I play for fun, as should everyone else do. If a friend asks for help and I have time on my hands, I will try to carry a bunch of low IL players in Tong and waste a few hours. If I want a few quick farm runs, I will look at my FL and in my guild for a well build and geared group. To put it bluntly, I dont have to do HAMSTER and other players likewise.

    I hate this entitlement some players feel and express against other players. My main was a 17k+ CW, due to the fact, that we lacked GFs and DCs I equipped these two classes with similar gear. WHY should I HAVE to run with a 11k IL DPS, when I own a 17k DPS? I Knew some players, who exclusively grouped with other BIS players, arguing, that they did spent hours grinding and equipping their chars for maximum effect and they expect the same level of dedication and gear from the other players. While I dont share this belief, I can respect it and some ppl would have a better experience, if they would show other ppl the same tolerance they want to be shown. I wont spent my nights crying about other ppl building groups without me, dont claim, someone is XYZ, bc he does not want to group with you.

    First of all... This thread is not about you. This thread is about LFG pug runs, mostly in PE, and the unrealistic expectations that players that are not BIS find there. I can't help but wonder, when was the last time you participated in one of those runs?

    Second of all, You don't have to do anything. You can play any way you choose. But, I doubt you started the game BIS. I would be willing to bet you were carried through a lot of content before you became end-game ready. You have no obligation to pay that forward. But it might be nice.

    Speaking of entitlement, why are players entitled to a 17k IL group for 12k IL content? Or an 18k Il group for 15k IL content? That doesn't sound elitist to you? Not even a little bit?

    Happy Memorial Day

  • pteriaspterias Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 661 Arc User
    I don't really blame the players, I blame the devs. The players are just doing what human nature does (sadly) with the judging tools the devs have provided. Most people look down their nose at anyone they perceive as beneath them (either by IL or non-optimal spec) unless they have some other personal investment in them like being in the same "tribe" (like a guild). People are people, for better or worse. You can't really blame a coyote for acting like a coyote. Blame whoever made the coyote.

    By the devs only providing people with a number called "Item Level" to judge others by, it recreates the same ugliness you see in the real world where most people judge your worth by the contents of your bank account instead of the quality of your character.

    If the devs could provide more metrics, that actually work, to demonstrate your value beyond a single score, it could help a lot. I don't have the answers, but I am cynical enough about human nature to know that the current way inevitably leads to this outcome.
  • nl54#3191 nl54 Member Posts: 145 Arc User
    They want to burn the dungeon as fast as possible. Period. The higher the item level the more potential dps. IL says nothing about the skill of the player, but when it's a random group they're going to judge your value based on a cursory glance.
    Ninurta - 16.1k Half-Orc GWF

    Ereshkigal - 12k Tiefling SW

    Aurora Ravensong - 11.6k Drow CW
  • spidey#3367 spidey Member Posts: 400 Arc User


    That doesn't sound elitist to you? Not even a little bit?

    Not at all.
  • adinosiiadinosii Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,294 Arc User
    edited May 2018


    My bad. I should have phrased that better. Newly 16k, or whatever the requirement is, and fresh of the chult hunts. In other words, new to ToNG.

    Anyone who is new to ToNG should really try to get some experience with friends first - typically through a guild/alliance run. Now, I don't know how other guilds/alliances do this, but we frequently organize a run for people who want to try new/hard content for the first time - usually just one "newbie" in a 5-man party, and voice communication is highly recommended to make it easier to provide instructions like "Jump down into the dino pit on the left side - not in the middle, so you avoid triggering the demilich".

    After a "teaching" run like that, people can usually handle a "regular" group (assuming they have a decent build, decent gear and use the right powers/tactics).

    Now, as we know, some classes are more sought-after for end-game content than others. This is in particular an issue for someone like a, say a 15-16K DPS player, with some experience in running the dungeon in question, but a problem getting into groups because of the sheer number of 17-18K players competing for the same "spot".

    Currently the best solution to that issue is to build up a good friend list and get a reputation of being a "good" player - really knowing how to play your class. I know a few 14-15K players I will much rather play with than some of the 17K (and in one instance one particular 18K) players I have been in a party with in the past. (Of course, if you are 14-15K, and not good at your job, you have a problem, but that is nothing I can help with).

    Being a 14-15K DPS player and attempting to get into a group through the /lfg (or various "elite") channels is just a recipe for frustration.

    I do not expect that to change, unless the content changes in a way that it becomes less feasible to have groups with just one DPS and 4 supports. Maybe if you have 2-3 enemies that you must take down at the same time - then a 2/3 DPS group might be preferred, but as things are (or as they will be in Mod 14), I do not see this changing in the near future.
    Hoping for improvements...
  • wintersmokewintersmoke Member Posts: 1,641 Arc User


    That doesn't sound elitist to you? Not even a little bit?

    Not at all.
    Agree to disagree.
  • wintersmokewintersmoke Member Posts: 1,641 Arc User
    adinosii said:


    My bad. I should have phrased that better. Newly 16k, or whatever the requirement is, and fresh of the chult hunts. In other words, new to ToNG.

    Anyone who is new to ToNG should really try to get some experience with friends first - typically through a guild/alliance run. Now, I don't know how other guilds/alliances do this, but we frequently organize a run for people who want to try new/hard content for the first time - usually just one "newbie" in a 5-man party, and voice communication is highly recommended to make it easier to provide instructions like "Jump down into the dino pit on the left side - not in the middle, so you avoid triggering the demilich".

    After a "teaching" run like that, people can usually handle a "regular" group (assuming they have a decent build, decent gear and use the right powers/tactics).

    Now, as we know, some classes are more sought-after for end-game content than others. This is in particular an issue for someone like a, say a 15-16K DPS player, with some experience in running the dungeon in question, but a problem getting into groups because of the sheer number of 17-18K players competing for the same "spot".

    Currently the best solution to that issue is to build up a good friend list and get a reputation of being a "good" player - really knowing how to play your class. I know a few 14-15K players I will much rather play with than some of the 17K (and in one instance one particular 18K) players I have been in a party with in the past. (Of course, if you are 14-15K, and not good at your job, you have a problem, but that is nothing I can help with).

    Being a 14-15K DPS player and attempting to get into a group through the /lfg (or various "elite") channels is just a recipe for frustration.

    I do not expect that to change, unless the content changes in a way that it becomes less feasible to have groups with just one DPS and 4 supports. Maybe if you have 2-3 enemies that you must take down at the same time - then a 2/3 DPS group might be preferred, but as things are (or as they will be in Mod 14), I do not see this changing in the near future.
    Agreed, but...

    You are the first player in your guild to qualify for Tong/Cotdg/whateva. Or..

    You work 2 part time jobs. While going to college. And you have several friends, and a couple pf family members that you try to see once a month. And...

    You don't play at the same time every day, so your friends are never all on at the same time.

    Sometimes PUG is the only way players can learn how to do something. And as the game has progressed, getting into a PUG group unless you are BIS has gotten harder. Getting to BIS if you don't do the Biggest, Newest, Bestest! has also gotten harder.
  • spidey#3367 spidey Member Posts: 400 Arc User
    Dont look for excuses, look for solutions.
  • fightdawalrus#5058 fightdawalrus Member Posts: 114 Arc User
    Agreed, but...
    >
    > You are the first player in your guild to qualify for Tong/Cotdg/whateva. Or..
    >
    > You work 2 part time jobs. While going to college. And you have several friends, and a couple pf family members that you try to see once a month. And...
    >
    > You don't play at the same time every day, so your friends are never all on at the same time.
    >
    > Sometimes PUG is the only way players can learn how to do something. And as the game has progressed, getting into a PUG group unless you are BIS has gotten harder. Getting to BIS if you don't do the Biggest, Newest, Bestest! has also gotten harder.

    It seems you are trying to make any excuse for players who run PUG.

    "You are stationed on the moon and you are working on mars part time all while going to school on pluto"

    Everyone who plays this game has some sort of responsibilities (unless you are 10 years old) so that doesn't mean you are forced to run PUG groups with randoms. This game forces you to socialize and that's not a bad thing. The problem is that a lot players want to take the easy route and just call out for certain content instead of making their own group and getting upset when people don't invite them. Make your own groups with your own judgement, if you are 15k then look for other 15ks to run with you but what I've noticed is the hypocritical trend of players at 15k calling out for content but only wanting people higher item level than they are and not inviting people closer to their item level. There's plenty of non BiS players out there but calling out "lf codg" all day isn't going to help you find em.
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