No you are wrong sadly. It's about 1.balance should not be build arround stupid concepted auras 2.if build or balanced arround it, a DPS buff based on a defensive statt/boon, the moment things got corrected a big outcry and neverending ranting threads run down the river
I really can't tell why some of you argue 24/7 with perfect BIS setup player, if 99.99% in this game is not?
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
1.balance should not be build arround stupid concepted auras
2.if build or balanced arround it, a DPS buff based on a defensive statt/boon, the moment things got corrected a big outcry and neverending ranting threads run down the river
I really can't tell why some of you argue 24/7 with perfect BIS setup player, if 99.99% in this game is not?
1. Most external buffs in this game have range, and are in a from of static aura.
2. If you have bothered to read instead of pitchforking, you would have saw that there is nothing to build. You have HP, you get AoC. If you want to 'build' towards AoC it will give you only 5% dps. So what outcry? What you talk about ? Repeating a slogan doesn't make it truth, close, but not really real: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_truth_effect
3. Defensive stats to offense? You mean like Steely defense ? Or like HAMSTER-covenant? Or maybe Tenberous? Mod13 Mane of the Manticore? It's so new and unique !
4. Because BiS is not redacted or chosen to suit my needs or your needs, it is what it is, it what you aim to get and shows towards what the distribution scales. What BiS now, will be common or close to, in half-year, year, etc.. So if we see that BiS now doesn't benefit less than wet noodle from AoC, it means that as your 99.9% of wet noodles get gear and progress toward what will be the normal wet noodle gear in half year they will gain less from AoC. Simple.
5. 99.9% ? This is where 99.9% of the statistics on the internet are made up ?
6. People who are not BiS will not spend 25mil AD for 5% damage increase, nor non BiS people have enough power that these numbers when HP is viable as DPS. So this entire discussion only applies to BiS.
> @micky1p00 said: > No you are wrong sadly. > > It's about > > 1.balance should not be build arround stupid concepted auras > > 2.if build or balanced arround it, a DPS buff based on a defensive statt/boon, the moment things got corrected a big outcry and neverending ranting threads run down the river > > > > I really can't tell why some of you argue 24/7 with perfect BIS setup player, if 99.99% in this game is not? > > 1. Most external buffs in this game have range, and are in a from of static aura. > > 2. If you have bothered to read instead of pitchforking, you would have saw that there is nothing to build. You have HP, you get AoC. If you want to 'build' towards AoC it will give you only 5% dps. So what outcry? What you talk about ? Repeating a slogan doesn't make it truth, close, but not really real: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_truth_effect > > 3. Defensive stats to offense? You mean like Steely defense ? Or like <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>-covenant? Or maybe Tenberous? Mod13 Mane of the Manticore? It's so new and unique ! > > 4. Because BiS is not redacted or chosen to suit my needs or your needs, it is what it is, it what you aim to get and shows towards what the distribution scales. What BiS now, will be common or close to, in half-year, year, etc.. So if we see that BiS now doesn't benefit less than wet noodle from AoC, it means that as your 99.9% of wet noodles get gear and progress toward what will be the normal wet noodle gear in half year they will gain less from AoC. Simple. > > 5. 99.9% ? This is where 99.9% of the statistics on the internet are made up ? > > 6. People who are not BiS will not spend 25mil AD for 5% damage increase, nor non BiS people have enough power that these numbers when HP is viable as DPS. So this entire discussion only applies to BiS.
-w- Probably the most sense made in this discussion. Simply put majority of the players won’t find HP good for them, (due the groups, their class, General Power) The main issue I’d say is Power creep. ewe Reason why BiS players recommend other things over power, since anymore of it does little to aid us, also dependent on the class... cx Either way am I whiching over to the new mount? Likely no, I have more important things to spend AD on, and others may, sure. ^.^ Maybe you should direct attention to bugs with AoC rather than AoC itself~
I know player that build arround one companion spending a power related proc on non crits. The fix was painfull for some of them. I think devs should decide , if or if not a passive aura should be the top number one damage for some classes/builds or not. But I do think it is necessary to point at it in advance, since those kind of things repeatedly happened in this game before, and the awakening was pretty painful. This game is filled with errors and mistakes more than anything I met before. Every mod stuff get's created , leading to endless bugs and every single mod the devs forget to implement things like internal cooldowns leading to multiproccing BS. I am 100% sure they even don't know about this aura, the procrate, same as they don't know it is one reason why OP is the favoured tank/class atm.
I know player that build arround one companion spending a power related proc on non crits.
The fix was painfull for some of them.
I believe that they said the issue was that they didn't want a multi-million AD chase item to be essentially required for a class to function at the highest level. The fact that aura of courage is free and takes little very little investment is exactly why it is a better mechanic compared to the owlbear cub.
Even if aura of courage and all other "defense for offense" effects were suddenly deleted from the game, any investment into hit points is still one of the most efficient forms of defense in the game. If you have a very specific build that benefits more than a normal player from aura of courage, and you want to waste many millions of AD on a less than 1% increase in dungeon run speed from stacking a massive amount of HP instead of power, I have to wonder why you didn't just spend that same AD to reach best in slot on a normal build.
I think devs should decide , if or if not a passive aura should be the top number one damage for some classes/builds or not.
It's still in the game isn't it? The devs aren't going to permanently lock in or out an entire subset of features based on our classifications of them. The game will change in the future. The game will get adjusted in the future. People will get upset by these adjustments in the future.
Every mod stuff get's created , leading to endless bugs and every single mod the devs forget to implement things like internal cooldowns leading to multiproccing BS.
I do have to agree that they are a bit notorious for creating some effects that lead to a fairly serious mess, and then don't listen to play feedback before they hit live and destroy large parts of the game, but it's not like aura of courage is actually new.
I am 100% sure they even don't know about this aura, the procrate, same as they don't know it is one reason why OP is the favoured tank/class atm.
You are 100% sure even though you yourself don't even know why OP is the favored tank / cla ... wait ... favored class? Wait wait wait... have you heard of the cleric? You are here complaining about aura of courage as if it is the most overpowered feature/class in the game. You are complaining about a class that can increase someone's damage by (using your numbers) 40% or 50% or whatever, and you think it is more powerful than a class that can grant ALL of their allies, not just specific ones, more than double damage. A class that can be used multiple times in a party and stack for more than quadruple damage. A class whose power is not getting reduced by more than a couple percents in module 13. And you want to claim that this tiny aura of courage thing makes paladins overpowered. Hate to break this to you, but clerics hold #1 and #2 best buff class slots--paladin sits at #3.
Once again I have to plunge to the depths of the abyss in order to try and put some logic behind what this person preaches. I've yet to find a single person who contradicts himself this much.
Exactly the point in the discussion. Aura of Courage takes no effort, whatsoever, and gives way too much shared damage increase. That damage increase is higher than most Encounter spells as well as the Features which require time and effort to build, sometimes a build that takes years to build. If you can just slot it and everyone can do magnificent DPS, then it's not really reasonable to have THAT much dps to begin with, especially since everything in the game absolutely pales in comparison to that power. Do you understand that simple concept?
In fact, you just proved yourself completely void by posting the ACT log. Aura of Courage did absolutely horrendous amount of damage for no effort, whatsoever.
This alone implies that fastest possible runs will have a mandatory Outhbound Paladin as a must. I can't think of a TR giving this much shared power to everyone, constantly, for no effort. I can't think of a DC giving this much shared power to everyone constantly (DC needs to spam spells for that). I can't think of a CW giving this much shared power even with Prestigidation and all Renegade Chaos Magic (which is random, btw). I can't think of a GWF giving this much shared power to anyone. Nor SW. Nor HR. Nor GF.
Virtually no other class has this much benefition to give to other classes, thus making it UNBALANCED and ABSURD to not take OP into the account, thus leading to less balance between the class composition and furthermore less options to build.
Furthermore, if that is not enough, OP can heal far better than DC (which is a no-brainer) and can also tank. It's like winning a lottery if you have a Pally in your team and go to a dungeon., it is THAT good.
You don't care if you have any other lass, you just think "If we find pally we're good to go". Everyone smiles and is happy if Pally goes along because they know, by default, that even a lowly geared Pally will help to clear the dungeon far better to that of any other class which may or may not tank/heal/share power.
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More so, AoC is actually in some way balancing buff, the stronger the player without it the less it will add, the weaker it is the more significant it will be. In some ways similar to power share. This will benefit lower geared players, or non dps classes, more and scale down in terms of overall percentage as the player gear. That means it's a significant gap closer for players, as opposed to flat damage buff, which will just amplify any gap when looked in absolute numbers.
This is the poorest argument I've seen in a while, trying to give a purpose to the Pally's AoC as if it's a "balancing power", ergo it's "good as it is" and is "already balanced out". That's not how it works in the realm of the logic. Sorry.
Again, it deals way too much damage which makes it overpowered from a standpoint of the PARTY balance, meaning that you'd much rather have a paladin in your team than a trickster rogue.
I don't think that it can get much simpler in terms of the balance explanation and being unable to see it or constantly trying to use the argument that there are other BROKEN things in the game, ergo it should remain constant, is simply wrong. Once again you're trying to state that
- If a (1)broken thing exists and if a more (2)broken thing exists also, the (1)broken thing is fine.
Everything is bound to change and circle around the balance of the powers so that the gameplay is fair for everyone. Luckily, there are ACT numbers which portray just what and how much Aura of Courage deals. It's presposterous to think that a Feature should deal that much damage for no effort.
Many high damage features were nerfed to the ground and I really don't see the reason why AoC shouldn't be nerfed, especially since it is not only doing personal damage (like those feature were and were using a build in mind), but it gives shared power to everyone which is again supercrazy.
All the arguments that you're using are only showing the one simple truth - Paladin is way too good NOT to take in your team, and that is a problem in terms of the balance.
I rest my case.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Save the demagoguery, you were asked simple questions:
If HG was shown as seperate hit of it's full contribution, how much of the damage it would accounted for? If ITF was shown as seperate hit of it's full contribution, how much of the damage it would accounted for? If Longstrider was shown as seperate hit of it's full contribution, how much of the damage it would accounted for? If BtS..
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Virtually no other class has this much benefition to give to other classes, thus making it UNBALANCED and ABSURD to not take OP into the account, thus leading to less balance between the class composition and furthermore less options to build.
Everything is bound to change and circle around the balance of the powers so that the gameplay is fair for everyone. Luckily, there are ACT numbers which portray just what and how much Aura of Courage deals. It's presposterous to think that a Feature should deal that much damage for no effort.
"Virtually no other class has this much benefition to give to other classes,"
Really?
"Luckily, there are ACT numbers which portray just what and how much Aura of Courage deals. It's presposterous to think that a Feature should deal that much damage for no effort. "
Unfortunately we don't have ACT for others, we have to use this thing above the neck, so please answer, if all DC buffs were displayd in ACT as second hit, what will be the damage proportion?
Hmm ok? You can keep resting, no one cares. The entire thread wasn't about class balance. If you want to win an argument with yourself please go on. As long as it makes you happy.
Save the demagoguery, you were asked simple questions:
If HG was shown as seperate hit of it's full contribution, how much of the damage it would accounted for? If ITF was shown as seperate hit of it's full contribution, how much of the damage it would accounted for? If Longstrider was shown as seperate hit of it's full contribution, how much of the damage it would accounted for? If BtS..
Now, let me ask you a question.
If you have a clear view of the problem and an ACT log which portrays the problem that leads to the unbalanced party composition and reminds anyone and their grandma that Pally's just too good not to take into the team damage-wise, health-wise and heal-wise, how come you support the problem's remaining simply because there are other problems which also were addressed many times?
Enter PRACTICALITY.
If you have a problem right in front of your eyes, you fix it.
You do not say "there are worse problems which we can't calculate now in the datachart" and leave the problem which you can fix.
I think that all you preach, logically, is connected to the sense of entitlement you possess for the Feature Aura of Courage. And you wrote that you were a mod in the channel for no-exploit gameplay, but you don't care when there's a feature that's so exploity that it makes no sense not to take it? Heh. Great.
I recommend thinking from another perspective, like
- Who should I take to the dungeon?
If you immediate answer is OP or DC, then you have a balance issue.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Save the demagoguery, you were asked simple questions:
If HG was shown as seperate hit of it's full contribution, how much of the damage it would accounted for? If ITF was shown as seperate hit of it's full contribution, how much of the damage it would accounted for? If Longstrider was shown as seperate hit of it's full contribution, how much of the damage it would accounted for? If BtS..
Now, let me ask you a question.
If you have a clear view of the problem and an ACT log which portrays the problem that leads to the unbalanced party composition and reminds anyone and their grandma that Pally's just too good not to take into the team damage-wise, health-wise and heal-wise, how come you support the problem's remaining simply because there are other problems which also were addressed many times?
Enter PRACTICALITY.
If you have a problem right in front of your eyes, you fix it.
You do not say "there are worse problems which we can't calculate now in the datachart" and leave the problem which you can fix.
I think that all you preach, logically, is connected to the sense of entitlement you possess for the Feature Aura of Courage. And you wrote that you were a mod in the channel for no-exploit gameplay, but you don't care when there's a feature that's so exploity that it makes no sense not to take it? Heh. Great.
Answer the simple questions. It's not complicated math that you need help with it. Go look up the numbers and do the simple task required.
But here, I'll help you, DC buff is about 2.2 multiplier, how much it would be as a portion of the damage if it was shown as separate hit?
Ad-homynem wont help you, or calling AoC exploit, or what not.
You were answered those silly questions if you cared enough to read, which you obviously didn't do.
Furthermore, comparing my arguments to demagoguery is a rather poor portrayal of argumentative skills, but that isn't surprising given your lack of logical reasoning behind your preaching to the choir.
Sorry, obviously you know the answer then, can you please re-post, unfortunately, not all of us have good reading comprehension, thanks, please add the one above for full DC.
I am 100% sure they even don't know about this aura, the procrate, same as they don't know it is one reason why OP is the favoured tank/class atm.
You are 100% sure even though you yourself don't even know why OP is the favored tank / cla ... wait ... favored class? Wait wait wait... have you heard of the cleric? You are here complaining about aura of courage as if it is the most overpowered feature/class in the game. You are complaining about a class that can increase someone's damage by (using your numbers) 40% or 50% or whatever, and you think it is more powerful than a class that can grant ALL of their allies, not just specific ones, more than double damage. A class that can be used multiple times in a party and stack for more than quadruple damage. A class whose power is not getting reduced by more than a couple percents in module 13. And you want to claim that this tiny aura of courage thing makes paladins overpowered. Hate to break this to you, but clerics hold #1 and #2 best buff class slots--paladin sits at #3.
Hm, can´t tell what you talk of. I wrote, AoC is ONE of the reasons why OP is favoured over GF, beside many others and did not talk about DC at all. OP is the tank and class at same time set in stone in actual meta (you can also combine that conqu GF with a devo pally), powerbuff+ temp HP+encounter reset+AoC+ solid mitigation tools, that´s it in the sum. The class can skip any points into defense atm and put every effort in offense due to that temp HP buff. There is no need to name all those tools every time again, if I talk about another one. And again AoC is no "tiny aura", try to understand, if that aura deals my main damage and that damage is 30%, it outperforms Hollowed Ground that moment considered as a buff. 70+30 >70 x 1.4 You can just deny that fact, but you could also run ACt and look up yourself. There where dozens of striker in the past I monitored that dealt +20% with their damage only by AoC, tiny.. small...? You get instant kicked the moment you turn of AoC and tell teammates it´s "tiny", lol. last tong from 1. boss upwards: GWF 16.6kIL https://i.imgur.com/QuUTByw.png 17k+IL SS/mof at bosses https://i.imgur.com/BNDbLBI.png and please, please save me from comments like: "That´s no hdps, my IBS deals 50 mio" I saw what it can deal in a high performing group, 30 mio in a row (and no perfect debuff setup involved) from that drunk´n monster from Norway it is what it is , only the next tong I posted, endless numbers before and following
No need to talk about DC, wich is overpowered same way, I play that class every day, but that does not lead to a onesided sight of things in my case. I point at stuff if it is obvious and looks broken bad underperforming, overpowered or too good in terms of balance, allways. Cryptic tries to readjust buffs, but they do it slowly, leading to another boring mod of omnipresent call for OP-DC-DC +xyz.
Somehow I get the impression you want to misinterpret stuff, but honestly I really don´t even understand your intentions. Only to be right? To prevent any solid discussion? When did you read lately: "lfm tong, need tank-GF prefered"... anyone? No that class is either a hdps (very few can act as that) or a funny "Buff-Clown" all through mod 12 I talk about balance, again balance ..... BALANCE in this game, wich is out of order.
Btw Guild Boon + radiants in def slots and you will feel the actual buff, some spend 1mio AD for a 1% buff, guild boon is for free and buffs for more... sry if you don´t have that boon
So if things should get adjusted please devs pull the right levers, things that do make less sense like AoC the way it works now. Done here, said enough in this case and every other word is wasted, thy for the try to discuss.
I do not feel obliged to work with the numbers with things that I'm familiar with and with the things that are not why I started conversation with another person to begin with. There are other topics dealing with the issue as well as people who're more knowledgeable regarding that issue, but all in due time. Right now my focus is neither of those things, my focus is on what I know and what I can confirm to be broken. I'm not a developer, I'm a player and I can see the difference between having a Paladin in the PT and not having a Paladin in the PT.
Furthermore, if you already feel like your argument regarding the acronyms you've described as far more important to fix rather than Aura of Courage, be my guest to explain to me as well as other what's their problem. Asking me to describe them and provide "numbers" won't somehow diminish the importance of Aura of Courage and there is a rather super-simple counter-question to your silly question - Who would you rather pick in a team? Paladin or Trickster Rogue? You needn't answer that because I know very well what you'll pick, unless you're somehow going to amuse the reasoning why picking a TR is better than picking a Paladin, to which I reckon I'd have a fun time reading and laughing.
Now, that other person wrote at least 10 highly important balance issues paragraphs which you completely overlooked, reminding me that you have a serious problem with the concentration, focus and observation, which leads towards the inability to grasp someone's arguments, thus leading you to make preposterous counter-arguments which stray away from the topic at hand. You may note these as ad-hominem, however I'm simply stating what's obvious to me after I've given explanations over and over again, as well as that other person, regarding some very simple things which are presenting a problem.
If you feel like someone is obliged to answer your question on the topic which isn't even regarding the Aura of Courage and only Aura of Courage, you are wrong. And again, it would be of a great help if you could explain it yourself as well as the purpose of your question.
I'll try again :
- Reminding you of the previous post regarding the practicality. Dealing with the problem that you can fix takes prevalence over the problem you can't be sure how to fix. Noted : both are problems. Noted : both need fixing. Noted : Data presentable to Aura of Courage, ergo, fix. Noted : Paladin > Other classes. - Reminding you of the perspective on the party composition balancing out. I've noted many arguments out of which you didn't even take the time to reply given the fact that you can't reply to them because even though you lack logical perception on many accounts in your arguments, you are still not going to say that it is better to take a TR in the dungeon rather than a Paladin.
You see, I can do that too far better than you. Who will you pick? TR or OP in the dungeon? Answer this "simple question". <--- you see, that sort of a thing is ambivalent, ambiguous and doesn't really prove anything worthwhile and can also lead to a significant jumping to conclusions, however in my case even with a question as silly as that I still hold Higher Ground (remembered your silly SW quotes back then) simply because my question is far more relevant to the balance than yours will ever be.
Your answer to my arguments is "really?" thus again portraying the poor argumentative skills, leaning back to your question which got destroyed in an instance. Great way to NOT argue properly.
Again, practicality and simplicity. If you will take Paladin over the Trickster rogue in the dungeon, or any other class for that matter, that means that Party composition is not balanced. Can you prove this wrong? If you can, then you have a valid point that Paladin and AC are fine as they are. If you can't, then you do not really have a case nor have anything to seek in arguing over some ambiguous results regarding the features.
Try to keep it simple and focus because there is a problem. If you do not want to acknowledge it, that is completely your right. If you want to prove how Aura of Courage is fine,then don't ask ME to prove it. Provide data charts which explain that AoC is fine as it is. So far you only buried yourself with the ACT log and I doubt that you can escape that one.
Any other discussion is really excessive and would be a terrible eyesore in the topic. So far you didn't prove anything worthwhile regarding the AoC, other than it deals way too much damage in comparison to other features.
Also, I do not mind the DC's power sharing because DC BUILDS it and it takes a lot of Power for it to function properly. In the same vein I do not mind the Masterwork gear with the 2%+ damage share because people took TIME and effort to build it, which you can't really say for Aura of Courage. In fact, I can't think of a single one spell or item in the game that gives you as much as Aura of Courage does. Everything else takes time and effort to build efficiently.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
I am 100% sure they even don't know about this aura, the procrate, same as they don't know it is one reason why OP is the favoured tank/class atm.
You are 100% sure even though you yourself don't even know why OP is the favored tank / cla ... wait ... favored class? Wait wait wait... have you heard of the cleric? You are here complaining about aura of courage as if it is the most overpowered feature/class in the game. You are complaining about a class that can increase someone's damage by (using your numbers) 40% or 50% or whatever, and you think it is more powerful than a class that can grant ALL of their allies, not just specific ones, more than double damage. A class that can be used multiple times in a party and stack for more than quadruple damage. A class whose power is not getting reduced by more than a couple percents in module 13. And you want to claim that this tiny aura of courage thing makes paladins overpowered. Hate to break this to you, but clerics hold #1 and #2 best buff class slots--paladin sits at #3.
Hm, can´t tell what you talk of. I wrote, AoC is ONE of the reasons why OP is favoured over GF, beside many others and did not talk about DC at all. OP is the tank and class at same time set in stone in actual meta (you can also combine that conqu GF with a devo pally, powerbuff+ temp HP+encounter reset+AoC+ solid mitigation tools, that´s it in the sum. The class can skip any points into defense atm and put every effort in offense by that temp HP buff. No need to talk about DC, wich is overpowerde same way. Cryptic tries to readjuyt buffs, but they do it slowly, leading to another boring mod of omnipresent call for OP-DC-DC +xyz
Look, the original post, asked to buff AoC and OP, by making the AoC count from OP HP, this would have made both AoC stronger because OP has much more HP than DPS class, and shift class balance more because then OP can stack HP on purpose. It was because the poster didn't understood the mechanics, HAMSTER happens, we argued against it, it was corrected, it could have been water under the bridge. ITF is more or less at the same level as AoC, especially where it's important, on a DPS, it's better in some aspect, and worse in others, but in the big picture it's in the same region. OP has other benefits (and power share), but at the non BiS levels, it's most likely the fact that it's easier to tank with than the other things.
No one says that classes are balanced and everything great, nor this thread was about class comparison. The comparison came from the stipulation that AoC is so much greater than other mechanics of other classes, when the major difference is not that it is higher buff or unique but that is shows on ACT while others are direct multiplier and wont show, and this is a very bad reason to balance power for, for where it displayed or not.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
I do not feel obliged to work with the numbers with things that I'm familiar with and with the things that are not why I started conversation with another person to begin with. There are other topics dealing with the issue as well as people who're more knowledgeable regarding that issue, but all in due time. Right now my focus is neither of those things, my focus is on what I know and what I can confirm to be broken. I'm not a developer, I'm a player and I can see the difference between having a Paladin in the PT and not having a Paladin in the PT.
Furthermore, if you already feel like your argument regarding the acronyms you've described as far more important to fix rather than Aura of Courage, be my guest to explain to me as well as other what's their problem. Asking me to describe them and provide "numbers" won't somehow diminish the importance of Aura of Courage and there is a rather super-simple counter-question to your silly question - Who would you rather pick in a team? Paladin or Trickster Rogue? You needn't answer that because I know very well what you'll pick, unless you're somehow going to amuse the reasoning why picking a TR is better than picking a Paladin, to which I reckon I'd have a fun time reading and laughing.
Now, that other person wrote at least 10 highly important balance issues paragraphs which you completely overlooked, reminding me that you have a serious problem with the concentration, focus and observation, which leads towards the inability to grasp someone's arguments, thus leading you to make preposterous counter-arguments which stray away from the topic at hand. You may note these as ad-hominem, however I'm simply stating what's obvious to me after I've given explanations over and over again, as well as that other person, regarding some very simple things which are presenting a problem.
If you feel like someone is obliged to answer your question on the topic which isn't even regarding the Aura of Courage and only Aura of Courage, you are wrong. And again, it would be of a great help if you could explain it yourself as well as the purpose of your question.
I'll try again :
- Reminding you of the previous post regarding the practicality. Dealing with the problem that you can fix takes prevalence over the problem you can't be sure how to fix. Noted : both are problems. Noted : both need fixing. Noted : Data presentable to Aura of Courage, ergo, fix. Noted : Paladin > Other classes. - Reminding you of the perspective on the party composition balancing out. I've noted many arguments out of which you didn't even take the time to reply given the fact that you can't reply to them because even though you lack logical perception on many accounts in your arguments, you are still not going to say that it is better to take a TR in the dungeon rather than a Paladin.
Your answer to my arguments is "really?" thus again portraying the poor argumentative skills, leaning back to your question which got destroyed in an instance. Great way to NOT argue properly.
Again, practicality and simplicity. If you will take Paladin over the Trickster rogue in the dungeon, or any other class for that matter, that means that Party composition is not balanced. Can you prove this wrong? If you can, then you have a valid point that Paladin and AC are fine as they are. If you can't, then you do not really have a case nor have anything to seek in arguing over some ambiguous results regarding the features.
Try to keep it simple and focus because there is a problem. If you do not want to acknowledge it, that is completely your right. If you want to prove how Aura of Courage is fine,then don't ask ME to prove it. Provide data charts which explain that AoC is fine as it is. So far you only buried yourself with the ACT log and I doubt that you can escape that one.
Any other discussion is really excessive and would be a terrible eyesore in the topic. So far you didn't prove anything worthwhile regarding the AoC, other than it deals way too much damage in comparison to other features.
Also, I do not mind the DC's power sharing because DC BUILDS it and it takes a lot of Power for it to function properly. In the same vein I do not mind the Masterwork gear with the 2%+ damage share because people took TIME and effort to build it, which you can't really say for Aura of Courage. In fact, I can't think of a single one spell or item in the game that gives you as much as Aura of Courage does. Everything else takes time and effort to build efficiently.
You've said that you answered it already, or it was answered. Please then just copy the numbers again. Thanks.
"So far you didn't prove anything worthwhile regarding the AoC, other than it deals way too much damage in comparison to other features"
This is your stipulation, as youv'e said that the questions was answered, please provide the numbers for comparison. Ah and you can take DO DC for the comparison, no need to involve power share.
I do not feel obliged to work with the numbers with things that I'm familiar with and with the things that are not why I started conversation with another person to begin with. There are other topics dealing with the issue as well as people who're more knowledgeable regarding that issue, but all in due time. Right now my focus is neither of those things, my focus is on what I know and what I can confirm to be broken. I'm not a developer, I'm a player and I can see the difference between having a Paladin in the PT and not having a Paladin in the PT.
Furthermore, if you already feel like your argument regarding the acronyms you've described as far more important to fix rather than Aura of Courage, be my guest to explain to me as well as other what's their problem. Asking me to describe them and provide "numbers" won't somehow diminish the importance of Aura of Courage and there is a rather super-simple counter-question to your silly question - Who would you rather pick in a team? Paladin or Trickster Rogue? You needn't answer that because I know very well what you'll pick, unless you're somehow going to amuse the reasoning why picking a TR is better than picking a Paladin, to which I reckon I'd have a fun time reading and laughing.
Now, that other person wrote at least 10 highly important balance issues paragraphs which you completely overlooked, reminding me that you have a serious problem with the concentration, focus and observation, which leads towards the inability to grasp someone's arguments, thus leading you to make preposterous counter-arguments which stray away from the topic at hand. You may note these as ad-hominem, however I'm simply stating what's obvious to me after I've given explanations over and over again, as well as that other person, regarding some very simple things which are presenting a problem.
If you feel like someone is obliged to answer your question on the topic which isn't even regarding the Aura of Courage and only Aura of Courage, you are wrong. And again, it would be of a great help if you could explain it yourself as well as the purpose of your question.
I'll try again :
- Reminding you of the previous post regarding the practicality. Dealing with the problem that you can fix takes prevalence over the problem you can't be sure how to fix. Noted : both are problems. Noted : both need fixing. Noted : Data presentable to Aura of Courage, ergo, fix. Noted : Paladin > Other classes. - Reminding you of the perspective on the party composition balancing out. I've noted many arguments out of which you didn't even take the time to reply given the fact that you can't reply to them because even though you lack logical perception on many accounts in your arguments, you are still not going to say that it is better to take a TR in the dungeon rather than a Paladin.
You see, I can do that too far better than you. Who will you pick? TR or OP in the dungeon? Answer this "simple question". <--- you see, that sort of a thing is ambivalent, ambiguous and doesn't really prove anything worthwhile and can also lead to a significant jumping to conclusions, however in my case even with a question as silly as that I still hold Higher Ground (remembered your silly SW quotes back then) simply because my question is far more relevant to the balance than yours will ever be.
Your answer to my arguments is "really?" thus again portraying the poor argumentative skills, leaning back to your question which got destroyed in an instance. Great way to NOT argue properly.
Again, practicality and simplicity. If you will take Paladin over the Trickster rogue in the dungeon, or any other class for that matter, that means that Party composition is not balanced. Can you prove this wrong? If you can, then you have a valid point that Paladin and AC are fine as they are. If you can't, then you do not really have a case nor have anything to seek in arguing over some ambiguous results regarding the features.
Try to keep it simple and focus because there is a problem. If you do not want to acknowledge it, that is completely your right. If you want to prove how Aura of Courage is fine,then don't ask ME to prove it. Provide data charts which explain that AoC is fine as it is. So far you only buried yourself with the ACT log and I doubt that you can escape that one.
Any other discussion is really excessive and would be a terrible eyesore in the topic. So far you didn't prove anything worthwhile regarding the AoC, other than it deals way too much damage in comparison to other features.
Also, I do not mind the DC's power sharing because DC BUILDS it and it takes a lot of Power for it to function properly. In the same vein I do not mind the Masterwork gear with the 2%+ damage share because people took TIME and effort to build it, which you can't really say for Aura of Courage. In fact, I can't think of a single one spell or item in the game that gives you as much as Aura of Courage does. Everything else takes time and effort to build efficiently. </p>
Is there anything else that you want to address to me that is not relevant in any way to the thread?
This is the level of your arguments: "Once again I have to plunge to the depths of the abyss in order to try and put some logic behind what this person preaches. I've yet to find a single person who contradicts himself this much. "
Keep on going..
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
This only shows how little you know, answer me the numbers from my question. But ofc I can answer, unlike you, obviously TR, why would I make a party and wont bring myself....
Another portrayal of your poor reasoning. If it is not relevant, then why you went to great lengths discussing it? And poorly while at that I may add...
I can destroy your arguments all day and night long, but I think it's far enough. We disagree, move on. I wasn't even talking to you. I want to talk with people who know what are the main issues in the Neverwinter in terms of the balance. That ain't you. Sorry micky.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Another portrayal of your poor reasoning. If it is not relevant, then why you went to great lengths discussing it? And poorly while at that I may add...
I can destroy your arguments all day and night long, but I think it's far enough. We disagree, move on. I wasn't even talking to you. I want to talk with people who know what are the main issues in the Neverwinter in terms of the balance. That ain't you. Sorry micky.
I didn't, no one discussed class balance, we discussed a single mechanics and waste of AD to build around it. The only one that did go into some argument about class balance is you, others only touched it briefly, and you won that argument clearly, against yourself. You still failed to answer a simple question, do numbers frighten you? Don't be afraid, we will correct you if you will get it wrong. Only those that do not try will never do mistakes. Why do you add the name of my dog/account at the end of your posts?
BTW, you should get some sleep, sitting on the forums all day and all night long can't be healthy for you.
BTW, you should get some sleep, sitting on the forums all day and all night long can't be healthy for you.
I do not want to hear that from you. Also, I only come once or twice in a week. Heck, I took a two year pause from the game... Like, seriously, stop embarrassing yourself like this. You can't "win" against me, but I will gladly amuse your necessity for attention seeking.
Also, the topic is called "FIX AURA OF COURAGE" and the 99.99% of my writing was directed towards that. I do not care what you and "someone else" discusses regarding the topic you may want to discuss about. That's not my focus. At least you may do, as any reasonable human being who's capable of civility, is to ignore me if you find me unreasonable and/or whatever else you may conjecture from my writing.
I sincerely do not care for what you have to write nor I read your posts whenever I come to the topic because you've proven yourself to be completely unreasonable in any possible discussion and completely unreasonable for any serious talk. This is the opinion I have of you currently and I've had it since the topic regarding the, I believe, 2xDC topic, where you also were talking how it's fine and I were taking how it needs to die out.
Obviously, I was correct and developers saw reasoning behind balancing the party composition which makes me happy to see that developers care for the status of the game. I do not think that you care for the party composition and to make things even sadder, you didn't even take a hint that I'm asking for TR buffs in a somewhat salient way. You are simply far too vitriolic in the way you behave and discuss things and it also doesn't help that you lead astray from the problem that I've talked about with some person.
The good person I am, I tried to talk to you yet again knowing that it's going to fail miserably trying to put some sense into you, but I can stoically confirm that I've tried and I do not see that as my failure. I can only hope that you will see some reasoning in the future, although I think it's slim pickings.
Next time I doubt I will talk to you since it's bothersome.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
BTW, you should get some sleep, sitting on the forums all day and all night long can't be healthy for you.
I do not want to hear that from you. Also, I only come once or twice in a week. Heck, I took a two year pause from the game... Like, seriously, stop embarrassing yourself like this. You can't "win" against me, but I will gladly amuse your necessity for attention seeking.
Also, the topic is called "FIX AURA OF COURAGE" and the 99.99% of my writing was directed towards that. I do not care what you and "someone else" discusses regarding the topic you may want to discuss about. That's not my focus. At least you may do, as any reasonable human being who's capable of civility, is to ignore me if you find me unreasonable and/or whatever else you may conjecture from my writing.
I sincerely do not care for what you have to write nor I read your posts whenever I come to the topic because you've proven yourself to be completely unreasonable in any possible discussion and completely unreasonable for any serious talk. This is the opinion I have of you currently and I've had it since the topic regarding the, I believe, 2xDC topic, where you also were talking how it's fine and I were taking how it needs to die out.
Obviously, I was correct and developers saw reasoning behind balancing the party composition which makes me happy to see that developers care for the status of the game. I do not think that you care for the party composition and to make things even more sad, you didn't even take a hint that I'm asking for TR buffs in a somewhat salient way. You are simply far too vitriolic in the way you behave and discuss things and it also doesn't help that you lead astray from the problem that I've talked about with some person.
The good person I am, I tried to talk to you yet again knowing that it's going to fail miserably trying to put some sense into you, but I can stoically confirm that I've tried and I do not see that as my failure. I can only hope that you will see some reasoning in the future, although I think it's slim pickings.
Next time I doubt I will talk to you since it's bothersome.
It's a shame that you don't read, as I've said to begin with that buffs should be reworked. Keep on discussing me, as 99.99% of your word count is me.
But "unreasonable" ? You can do better, I'm sure, be creative, the abyss one was a good start.
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unknowndramaMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 115Arc User
And the LARGER POINT here, before it gets obscured by all this math:
It is completely stupid to be talking about whether HP - hit points! - should be boosting damage in the same vicinity as much as Power does, *especially* since it arises from a completely passive Paladin feature that just stands there in order to provide the buff.
This is just stupid..how about the free power from DC and CW mof and GF that just press a key and you got free dmg buff whitout doing nothing...how about that 195% bonus stats from bondings whit rank 14 enchants..how about tenser..snail and other legendary mounts that give you free stats and bonus dmg whitout doing shiit..all just pasive..and wheel 30% dmg ..soul crystal 50% dmg how about reducing/changing another word for nerfing this first before you touch OP AoC.. or why not reducing bonding bonus stats to 140% add a cooldown on them after they proc for 60 seconds like glyps..this will fix your power creep...will not just great??
And the LARGER POINT here, before it gets obscured by all this math:
It is completely stupid to be talking about whether HP - hit points! - should be boosting damage in the same vicinity as much as Power does, *especially* since it arises from a completely passive Paladin feature that just stands there in order to provide the buff.
This is just stupid..how about the free power from DC and CW mof and GF that just press a key and you got free dmg buff whitout doing nothing...how about that 195% bonus stats from bondings whit rank 14 enchants..how about tenser..snail and other legendary mounts that give you free stats and bonus dmg whitout doing shiit..all just pasive..and wheel 30% dmg ..soul crystal 50% dmg how about reducing/changing another word for nerfing this first before you touch OP AoC.. or why not reducing bonding bonus stats to 140% add a cooldown on them after they proc for 60 seconds like glyps..this will fix your power creep...will not just great??
- The bonding runestones were already nerfed before, and furthermore they are applying a direct boost to the solitary person's attributes. The idea was to make them viable since MOD2-MOD3 so that people may choose different companions for their bonuses. Unfortunately, pets never had that much bonuses on them alone, so bondings didn't really see the light of the day until major overhauls took place postMOD6.
Personally, I was always against the Bondings due to how overused they were, however lately I do feel like many people like them and do not mind having them slotted. The game simply went towards that direction, so that's good. The bondings got a tremendous nerf which I predicted will happen. I also predict yet another, smaller, nerf to the Bondings and a bit of an upscale to the Augments.
- The power from the DC does not come "for free". It scales. A DC needs to be well equipped, and most of the DCs went into more Recovery builds in the past couple of mods. Furthermore, it is not as if the DC power sharing isn't representing a problem, of course, but the status of the game is such that a Devoted Cleric was always the GO-TO support class. It is questionable just what or how much the DC should be molded by since the lass already saw some high ups and downs. It is tricky, to say the least.
Personally, I'm all for DC being able to heal and deal the most damage to the Undead type of the enemies. However, the players got used to the premise of DC being a powersharing debuffing powerhouse, so it wouldn't make much sense to return the role to the DC as Heal-Only capability. Now, this intrinsically leads to the problem known as "healadin". now, this explicitly portrays how a Pally's Daily can make an entire other class role obsolete! Now that's how important it is to balance out the classes.
- Tenser's Floating Disc is a major puzzle for me in terms of the lore. Lore only. Mounts that give some bonuses are completely fine in my opinion because they are also very expensive. In terms of what you'd build with your character first, you don't say "Tenser's Floating disc'. Now, from a lore standpoint it's puzzling that Tenser's Floating Disc doesn't give INT buff since Tenser is a super-famous mage. Like, why? Oh, well. Tenser's Floating Disc was introduced at one time as the most expensive, rare and cool looking mount at the time. After the Tenser other legendary mounts emerged with their own bonuses. I also think that Tenser changed some of it's description along the line. I do not remember that you needed to activate its power in order for it to be useful. All in all a simple Elixir of Fate can do as much as Tenser's floating disc for a much, much longer time.
- Debuffing enemies in a party composition and hitting when all the buffs are present takes great amount of skill, timing and precision. DC and CW especially. CW even more than DC since Chaos magic is randomized. Now, Chaos magic is one of the best buffing options, but got reworked at least twice so far. I mainly use it on a lower geared CW that I main for the sake of the heals at times. If Life-Steal was a bit more prominent, I'd probably keep a Renegade CW simply because I like that class due to the randomness of the Chaos Magic. I like it's aesthetics and features even though it's not the most reliable spell. So, you can't have it as the most reliable buff option. Furthermore, the Aura of Courage gets all those buffs and scales alongside with them. Those buffs do not scale with eachother, at least not anymore.
I personally think that DC is a bit too powerful in terms of the debuffs and I avoid talking about the GF because that class is so broken that I wouldn't know where to start with. Paladins are something I'm more familiar with and Aura of Courage has that ease of access so that fixing it can be simple, quick and beneficial for anyone. The less possible alternative would be to make other classes to do the same so that it doesn't matter which class you bring, they all bring something to the table for no effort whatsoever. That's far less likely to happen, so a nerf to the Aura of Courage is the next most logical step for the developers from my experience of the game.
Please note, if you do main a Paladin or anyone else, you have to understand that this is the way MMOs go along and change over the time. The class I main went through some serious nerfs over the time and some serious buffs over the time. It's finally settling, so the focus comes on the spells which do far more than they should.
Aura of Courage doesn't fit anything be it by its name or by it's power sharing or by it's scaling with the debuffs or by it's mandatory position. It's just such an explicit feature that it may potentially ruin the game, if that didn't happen already for many.
The main problem is - people took time and dedication to build paladins. It became a trend to have a paladin. The changes come slow. You finally finalize something and thing you gonna play it, but then - nerf.
When I first took Lightning enchantment after a 2 year pause and saw what it does on CW I immediately knew it's going to be nerfed. And MOD13 did just that.
So, as a general rule in this video-game, if something is too good to be true, it probably is. Do not rush into building something because there's a very good chance it won't work over the long periods of time. I made that mistake twice, which is why I finally understand how development functions around here.
Some powers stand out too much and such is the Aura of Courage feature. It needs to lose between 25%-50% of it's overall power, same like Lostmauth set lost it's power, same like bondings lost their power, same like 2 x DC lost their power.
Always count on it that it may happen and that weaker classes might get boosts. Such is the case, for instance, with the TR and the correspondence with the Lostmauth set bonus which affects the encounter Path of Blades. It calls for a valid build since neither Path of Blades nor Lostmauth set aren't exponentially hard-hitting powers, but together with some effort and valid weapon sets, they can be such a good combo for the dungeon clearing without the necessity to play the most damaging class. In such a scenario you build Weapon sets and you Build Lostmauth set bonus, so the overall sum of it adds up to your future encounter use and all its ticks alongside. That makes for a fun gameplay, something that's not meta, something that's interesting to see.
Cheers
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
3. Defensive stats to offense? You mean like Steely defense ? Or like HAMSTER-covenant? Or maybe Tenberous? Mod13 Mane of the Manticore? It's so new and unique !
I keep seeing this argument pop up.
Assassin's Covenant is a *tradeoff* - a player has to *lose* defensive stats in order to gain offensive stats.
You of all people know the problems behind Tenebrous - they were so strong in the past that they were nerfed into the ground. Now almost no one uses it. Tenebrous should be an object lesson on why it's a bad idea to use HP as an offensive weapon.
As for Steely Defense (Power increases by 20% of Defense) - the GWF is the *only class* that has this type of feat, which turns a defensive stat into an offensive stat, without any sort of defensive tradeoff needed. That is because, one might surmise, that GWF is a berserker glass-cannon fighter class. Moreover, Defense is a worse defensive stat than HP (in most cases), so to take best advantage of this feat, a GWF has to purposefully stack a worse defensive stat. I think everyone would cry bloody murder if Steely Defense feat was changed to be based off of the GWF's HP instead of Defense. But suddenly the equivalent mechanic in terms of Aura of Courage is okay - for everyone, not just glass cannon melee fighters?
Edit: Assume for the purpose of discussion that 20% of damage comes from Aura of Courage. That means 80% does not, and if Aura of Courage were to suddenly go away, then that fighter would have to increase other sources of damage by 25% (1/0.8) in order to compensate for its loss. What would be the equivalent in terms of Power?
Let P1 be the fighter's Power with AoC, and let P2 be the fighter's power without AoC, that would have to be higher in order to replace AoC's loss.
From the damage formula: (1+P1/39908.4)(1+0.25) = (1+P2/39908.4)
Solving for P2: P2 = P1 + 0.25*(P1+39908.4)
The fractional increase in Power, (P2-P1)/P1, required to replace AoC:
(P2-P1)/P1 = 0.25*(1+39908.4/P1)
Substituting P1 = 200,000 for "BIS" levels of Power, we get (P2-P1)/P1 = 0.30 = 30%. So AoC represents a *free*, *buffed* Steely Defense feat for *everyone*, using the *better* defensive stat, HP, as its base. Now do you see the problem?
Post edited by chemjeff on
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
3. Defensive stats to offense? You mean like Steely defense ? Or like HAMSTER-covenant? Or maybe Tenberous? Mod13 Mane of the Manticore? It's so new and unique !
I keep seeing this argument pop up.
Assassin's Covenant is a *tradeoff* - a player has to *lose* defensive stats in order to gain offensive stats.
You of all people know the problems behind Tenebrous - they were so strong in the past that they were nerfed into the ground. Now almost no one uses it. Tenebrous should be an object lesson on why it's a bad idea to use HP as an offensive weapon.
As for Steely Defense (Power increases by 20% of Defense) - the GWF is the *only class* that has this type of feat, which turns a defensive stat into an offensive stat, without any sort of defensive tradeoff needed. That is because, one might surmise, that GWF is a berserker glass-cannon fighter class. Moreover, Defense is a worse defensive stat than HP (in most cases), so to take best advantage of this feat, a GWF has to purposefully stack a worse defensive stat. I think everyone would cry bloody murder if Steely Defense feat was changed to be based off of the GWF's HP instead of Defense. But suddenly the equivalent mechanic in terms of Aura of Courage is okay - for everyone, not just glass cannon melee fighters?
Edit: Assume for the purpose of discussion that 20% of damage comes from Aura of Courage. That means 80% does not, and if Aura of Courage were to suddenly go away, then that fighter would have to increase other sources of damage by 25% (1/0.8) in order to compensate for its loss. What would be the equivalent in terms of Power?
Let P1 be the fighter's Power with AoC, and let P2 be the fighter's power without AoC, that would have to be higher in order to replace AoC's loss.
From the damage formula: (1+P1/39908.4)(1+0.25) = (1+P2/39908.4)
Solving for P2: P2 = P1 + 0.25*(P1+39908.4)
The fractional increase in Power, (P2-P1)/P1, required to replace AoC:
(P2-P1)/P1 = 0.25*(1+39908.4/P1)
Substituting P1 = 200,000 for "BIS" levels of Power, we get (P2-P1)/P1 = 0.30 = 30%. So AoC represents a *free*, *buffed* Steely Defense feat for *everyone*, using the *better* defensive stat, HP, as its base. Now do you see the problem?
You mixed several separate arguments and I'm not sure what you are proving.
You are showing that AoC is on average 30% buff? Ok, no argument, I think we well established that it's there more or less. What the difference is from ITF, HG, etc... ? You can compare those with and without, call it HG aura, and compare to power, so what the issue here? The fact that you need HP? You already have HP, you can't get rid of HP, unless you strip and you wont.. You always repeat about stacking defensive stats, but what is that stacking? How much HP is the non stacking version, and how much is the stacked? From what I saw it's about 20k-32k HP difference for DPS class, where the non-stacked is about 200k HP. So what is this tacking all about? it's 4 radiant and a mount, maybe an artifact, there are no more slots...
What is the bottom line? That HP based mechanics is worse than direct buff? No, sorry you didn't prove that, on the contrary, it looks like a valid mechanics with diminished scaling. Nothing exceptional as compared to multiplicative buff. If there is procing issue for some classes, then it's a bug issue not mechanics.
If you want to show that buffs are evil? Ok, lets discuss this separately, for all I care cut all external buffs by about half, or diminished returns, or additive + modifier function, or plenty of solutions as long as you do it for everyone and with thought out proportion, and not create a pitchfork campaign per class, powershare today, DO tomorrow, AoC next week, longstrider on the weekends. Base it on the right reasons, not because ti's big numbers on ACT, that say nothing except that they are big. Like it was popular in powershare threads "OMG OMG OMG 30k power. NEEEERRRFFF!!!!!1111" when it's was less than any normal buff. (No, I'm not saying that power-share is in great place, I'm saying that shouting because it's 30k and not 30% and 30k looks bigger is just wrong) And without forgetting that every nerf suggestion is a person who plays a class. Every suggestion shouldn't kill a class on a whim, and somehow people forget that suggestions have repercussions, this is mostly how we end up with heavy handed nerfs, that throw classes into uselessness for years. Mostly because most (not talking about specific people) do not bother to understand the basic mechanics of what they shout about.
So what's the bottom line of this long thread in bug reports? I don't think that 'fixing' it to be from OP HP is a desired outcome. Do you want it turned to flat 30% buff, instead of HP based? Will this solve your HP concerns mechanics? Though please do take into consideration the questions above, and look into what is that investment, because all this 'investment' is summed up as very little, arguable, questionable, conditional, with diminished gains as gear improve, and for a lot of AD. I don't see anyone buy into this, and if some do, this is not comparable to bondings or lostmauth in terms of gain/cost and 'must have' factor.
Will it be a valid warning to warn people to nor rely on single mechanics, spend 10mil on a mount for perhaps 1.5-2% gain in DPS (and even that in specific stat conditions and not for most classes), when Cryptic known to nerf things. Sure valid warning, feel free to post one, probably best not in a bug section and not addressed to a dev. What I saw in those posts is creating hysteria from the wrong reasons, maybe well intentioned, maybe self serving, I don't know, but the result is the same, the basis is wrong and the suggestions of the fix either wrong (contradict to the displayed problem) or non-existant.
I'm a little confused. Despite the wording on the tooltip, and despite the posted ACT showing it contributes a fair bit to overall damage, doesn't Aura of Courage work as intended and if so, why is this suggestion in the bug reports since its clearly not a bug? Why not in another part of the forums? If the intention is to get it nerfed @chemjeff, why not just suggest readjustments to downscale its direct benefit to the party (which from what I read, you did), but also, since its a nerf, provide some form of change to a skill, power or ability to compensate for the loss of utility? Personally, I think this would be (and is) a fascinating discussion to have in PvE Discussion or the Player Feedback or the Class forums where the merits and demerits of the arguement could continue to be debated vice the Bug reports...which it...does not...seem to be. My two coppers.
I have to agree partially with the main post: Spending millions for putting Radiant in every defense slot in-case of OP in the team is ridicoulus. Buying a 5-10 million AD mount for that too. But yes, if AoC remains like that, this will happen.
Does AoC need to work as the tooltip states? -Yes.
Should it be nerfed? -Not yet.
Should it be toned down because the OP's have way more HP? -Definitely, but not entirely. OP's who built on it highly should perform better after the fix, while with an "average OP" (whatever it means) should feel the same as prefix.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
I have to agree partially with the main post: Spending millions for putting Radiant in every defense slot in-case of OP in the team is ridicoulus. Buying a 5-10 million AD mount for that too. But yes, if AoC remains like that, this will happen.
Does AoC need to work as the tooltip states? -Yes.
Should it be nerfed? -Not yet.
Should it be toned down because the OP's have way more HP? -Definitely, but not entirely. OP's who built on it highly should perform better after the fix, while with an "average OP" (whatever it means) should feel the same as prefix.
What you planned to put in those 4 slots otherwise ? Wouldn't it be HP & LS anyway for most classes? And aren't radiants actually cheaper than BI & friends?
If you mean that someone will make an enchant loadout with r14 enchants just in the case there is OP, I think we really discuss the minor percent of the BiS population who can afford this for the minor DPS increase, for those that even that exists. I know directly, or know of quite a few BiS players and I don't think anyone will have a separate set if enchants just for AoC and another for without.
But that's for points sake, not from real objection.
I don't think that there is objection to make it to work from OP HP and even adjusting it accordingly to lets say 0.8% of HP (from 0.9%). Except that you will probably see "OP LFG Tomb 900000 HP". Personally I don't see what is the noise and hysteria about 1% here or 2% there. There are much more pressuring and high priority issues than this, and even entire buff system is one of those issues. 6 forum pages over 2% dps....
Comments
It's about
1.balance should not be build arround stupid concepted auras
2.if build or balanced arround it, a DPS buff based on a defensive statt/boon, the moment things got corrected a big outcry and neverending ranting threads run down the river
I really can't tell why some of you argue 24/7 with perfect BIS setup player, if 99.99% in this game is not?
2. If you have bothered to read instead of pitchforking, you would have saw that there is nothing to build. You have HP, you get AoC. If you want to 'build' towards AoC it will give you only 5% dps. So what outcry? What you talk about ? Repeating a slogan doesn't make it truth, close, but not really real: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_truth_effect
3. Defensive stats to offense? You mean like Steely defense ? Or like HAMSTER-covenant? Or maybe Tenberous? Mod13 Mane of the Manticore? It's so new and unique !
4. Because BiS is not redacted or chosen to suit my needs or your needs, it is what it is, it what you aim to get and shows towards what the distribution scales. What BiS now, will be common or close to, in half-year, year, etc.. So if we see that BiS now doesn't benefit less than wet noodle from AoC, it means that as your 99.9% of wet noodles get gear and progress toward what will be the normal wet noodle gear in half year they will gain less from AoC. Simple.
5. 99.9% ? This is where 99.9% of the statistics on the internet are made up ?
6. People who are not BiS will not spend 25mil AD for 5% damage increase, nor non BiS people have enough power that these numbers when HP is viable as DPS. So this entire discussion only applies to BiS.
> No you are wrong sadly.
>
> It's about
>
> 1.balance should not be build arround stupid concepted auras
>
> 2.if build or balanced arround it, a DPS buff based on a defensive statt/boon, the moment things got corrected a big outcry and neverending ranting threads run down the river
>
>
>
> I really can't tell why some of you argue 24/7 with perfect BIS setup player, if 99.99% in this game is not?
>
> 1. Most external buffs in this game have range, and are in a from of static aura.
>
> 2. If you have bothered to read instead of pitchforking, you would have saw that there is nothing to build. You have HP, you get AoC. If you want to 'build' towards AoC it will give you only 5% dps. So what outcry? What you talk about ? Repeating a slogan doesn't make it truth, close, but not really real: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_truth_effect
>
> 3. Defensive stats to offense? You mean like Steely defense ? Or like <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>-covenant? Or maybe Tenberous? Mod13 Mane of the Manticore? It's so new and unique !
>
> 4. Because BiS is not redacted or chosen to suit my needs or your needs, it is what it is, it what you aim to get and shows towards what the distribution scales. What BiS now, will be common or close to, in half-year, year, etc.. So if we see that BiS now doesn't benefit less than wet noodle from AoC, it means that as your 99.9% of wet noodles get gear and progress toward what will be the normal wet noodle gear in half year they will gain less from AoC. Simple.
>
> 5. 99.9% ? This is where 99.9% of the statistics on the internet are made up ?
>
> 6. People who are not BiS will not spend 25mil AD for 5% damage increase, nor non BiS people have enough power that these numbers when HP is viable as DPS. So this entire discussion only applies to BiS.
-w- Probably the most sense made in this discussion. Simply put majority of the players won’t find HP good for them, (due the groups, their class, General Power) The main issue I’d say is Power creep. ewe Reason why BiS players recommend other things over power, since anymore of it does little to aid us, also dependent on the class... cx Either way am I whiching over to the new mount? Likely no, I have more important things to spend AD on, and others may, sure. ^.^ Maybe you should direct attention to bugs with AoC rather than AoC itself~
The fix was painfull for some of them.
I think devs should decide , if or if not a passive aura should be the top number one damage for some classes/builds or not.
But I do think it is necessary to point at it in advance, since those kind of things repeatedly happened in this game before, and the awakening was pretty painful.
This game is filled with errors and mistakes more than anything I met before.
Every mod stuff get's created , leading to endless bugs and every single mod the devs forget to implement things like internal cooldowns leading to multiproccing BS.
I am 100% sure they even don't know about this aura, the procrate, same as they don't know it is one reason why OP is the favoured tank/class atm.
Even if aura of courage and all other "defense for offense" effects were suddenly deleted from the game, any investment into hit points is still one of the most efficient forms of defense in the game. If you have a very specific build that benefits more than a normal player from aura of courage, and you want to waste many millions of AD on a less than 1% increase in dungeon run speed from stacking a massive amount of HP instead of power, I have to wonder why you didn't just spend that same AD to reach best in slot on a normal build. It's still in the game isn't it? The devs aren't going to permanently lock in or out an entire subset of features based on our classifications of them. The game will change in the future. The game will get adjusted in the future. People will get upset by these adjustments in the future.
I do have to agree that they are a bit notorious for creating some effects that lead to a fairly serious mess, and then don't listen to play feedback before they hit live and destroy large parts of the game, but it's not like aura of courage is actually new. You are 100% sure even though you yourself don't even know why OP is the favored tank / cla ... wait ... favored class? Wait wait wait... have you heard of the cleric? You are here complaining about aura of courage as if it is the most overpowered feature/class in the game. You are complaining about a class that can increase someone's damage by (using your numbers) 40% or 50% or whatever, and you think it is more powerful than a class that can grant ALL of their allies, not just specific ones, more than double damage. A class that can be used multiple times in a party and stack for more than quadruple damage. A class whose power is not getting reduced by more than a couple percents in module 13. And you want to claim that this tiny aura of courage thing makes paladins overpowered. Hate to break this to you, but clerics hold #1 and #2 best buff class slots--paladin sits at #3.
In fact, you just proved yourself completely void by posting the ACT log. Aura of Courage did absolutely horrendous amount of damage for no effort, whatsoever.
This alone implies that fastest possible runs will have a mandatory Outhbound Paladin as a must. I can't think of a TR giving this much shared power to everyone, constantly, for no effort. I can't think of a DC giving this much shared power to everyone constantly (DC needs to spam spells for that). I can't think of a CW giving this much shared power even with Prestigidation and all Renegade Chaos Magic (which is random, btw). I can't think of a GWF giving this much shared power to anyone. Nor SW. Nor HR. Nor GF.
Virtually no other class has this much benefition to give to other classes, thus making it UNBALANCED and ABSURD to not take OP into the account, thus leading to less balance between the class composition and furthermore less options to build.
Furthermore, if that is not enough, OP can heal far better than DC (which is a no-brainer) and can also tank. It's like winning a lottery if you have a Pally in your team and go to a dungeon., it is THAT good.
You don't care if you have any other lass, you just think "If we find pally we're good to go". Everyone smiles and is happy if Pally goes along because they know, by default, that even a lowly geared Pally will help to clear the dungeon far better to that of any other class which may or may not tank/heal/share power.
Again, it deals way too much damage which makes it overpowered from a standpoint of the PARTY balance, meaning that you'd much rather have a paladin in your team than a trickster rogue.
I don't think that it can get much simpler in terms of the balance explanation and being unable to see it or constantly trying to use the argument that there are other BROKEN things in the game, ergo it should remain constant, is simply wrong. Once again you're trying to state that
- If a (1)broken thing exists and if a more (2)broken thing exists also, the (1)broken thing is fine.
Everything is bound to change and circle around the balance of the powers so that the gameplay is fair for everyone. Luckily, there are ACT numbers which portray just what and how much Aura of Courage deals. It's presposterous to think that a Feature should deal that much damage for no effort.
Many high damage features were nerfed to the ground and I really don't see the reason why AoC shouldn't be nerfed, especially since it is not only doing personal damage (like those feature were and were using a build in mind), but it gives shared power to everyone which is again supercrazy.
All the arguments that you're using are only showing the one simple truth - Paladin is way too good NOT to take in your team, and that is a problem in terms of the balance.
I rest my case.
If HG was shown as seperate hit of it's full contribution, how much of the damage it would accounted for?
If ITF was shown as seperate hit of it's full contribution, how much of the damage it would accounted for?
If Longstrider was shown as seperate hit of it's full contribution, how much of the damage it would accounted for?
If BtS..
Really?
"Luckily, there are ACT numbers which portray just what and how much Aura of Courage deals. It's presposterous to think that a Feature should deal that much damage for no effort. "
Unfortunately we don't have ACT for others, we have to use this thing above the neck, so please answer, if all DC buffs were displayd in ACT as second hit, what will be the damage proportion? Hmm ok? You can keep resting, no one cares. The entire thread wasn't about class balance. If you want to win an argument with yourself please go on. As long as it makes you happy.
If you have a clear view of the problem and an ACT log which portrays the problem that leads to the unbalanced party composition and reminds anyone and their grandma that Pally's just too good not to take into the team damage-wise, health-wise and heal-wise, how come you support the problem's remaining simply because there are other problems which also were addressed many times?
Enter PRACTICALITY.
If you have a problem right in front of your eyes, you fix it.
You do not say "there are worse problems which we can't calculate now in the datachart" and leave the problem which you can fix.
I think that all you preach, logically, is connected to the sense of entitlement you possess for the Feature Aura of Courage.
And you wrote that you were a mod in the channel for no-exploit gameplay, but you don't care when there's a feature that's so exploity that it makes no sense not to take it? Heh. Great.
I recommend thinking from another perspective, like
- Who should I take to the dungeon?
If you immediate answer is OP or DC, then you have a balance issue.
But here, I'll help you, DC buff is about 2.2 multiplier, how much it would be as a portion of the damage if it was shown as separate hit?
Ad-homynem wont help you, or calling AoC exploit, or what not. Sorry, obviously you know the answer then, can you please re-post, unfortunately, not all of us have good reading comprehension, thanks, please add the one above for full DC.
OP is the tank and class at same time set in stone in actual meta (you can also combine that conqu GF with a devo pally), powerbuff+ temp HP+encounter reset+AoC+ solid mitigation tools, that´s it in the sum.
The class can skip any points into defense atm and put every effort in offense due to that temp HP buff. There is no need to name all those tools every time again, if I talk about another one.
And again AoC is no "tiny aura", try to understand, if that aura deals my main damage and that damage is 30%, it outperforms Hollowed Ground that moment considered as a buff. 70+30 >70 x 1.4
You can just deny that fact, but you could also run ACt and look up yourself. There where dozens of striker in the past I monitored that dealt +20% with their damage only by AoC, tiny.. small...?
You get instant kicked the moment you turn of AoC and tell teammates it´s "tiny", lol.
last tong from 1. boss upwards:
GWF 16.6kIL https://i.imgur.com/QuUTByw.png
17k+IL SS/mof at bosses https://i.imgur.com/BNDbLBI.png
and please, please save me from comments like: "That´s no hdps, my IBS deals 50 mio"
I saw what it can deal in a high performing group, 30 mio in a row (and no perfect debuff setup involved) from that drunk´n monster from Norway
it is what it is , only the next tong I posted, endless numbers before and following
No need to talk about DC, wich is overpowered same way, I play that class every day, but that does not lead to a onesided sight of things in my case. I point at stuff if it is obvious and looks broken bad underperforming, overpowered or too good in terms of balance, allways.
Cryptic tries to readjust buffs, but they do it slowly, leading to another boring mod of omnipresent call for OP-DC-DC +xyz.
Somehow I get the impression you want to misinterpret stuff, but honestly I really don´t even understand your intentions. Only to be right? To prevent any solid discussion?
When did you read lately: "lfm tong, need tank-GF prefered"... anyone?
No that class is either a hdps (very few can act as that) or a funny "Buff-Clown" all through mod 12
I talk about balance, again balance ..... BALANCE in this game, wich is out of order.
Btw Guild Boon + radiants in def slots and you will feel the actual buff, some spend 1mio AD for a 1% buff, guild boon is for free and buffs for more... sry if you don´t have that boon
So if things should get adjusted please devs pull the right levers, things that do make less sense like AoC the way it works now.
Done here, said enough in this case and every other word is wasted, thy for the try to discuss.
Furthermore, if you already feel like your argument regarding the acronyms you've described as far more important to fix rather than Aura of Courage, be my guest to explain to me as well as other what's their problem. Asking me to describe them and provide "numbers" won't somehow diminish the importance of Aura of Courage and there is a rather super-simple counter-question to your silly question - Who would you rather pick in a team? Paladin or Trickster Rogue? You needn't answer that because I know very well what you'll pick, unless you're somehow going to amuse the reasoning why picking a TR is better than picking a Paladin, to which I reckon I'd have a fun time reading and laughing.
Now, that other person wrote at least 10 highly important balance issues paragraphs which you completely overlooked, reminding me that you have a serious problem with the concentration, focus and observation, which leads towards the inability to grasp someone's arguments, thus leading you to make preposterous counter-arguments which stray away from the topic at hand. You may note these as ad-hominem, however I'm simply stating what's obvious to me after I've given explanations over and over again, as well as that other person, regarding some very simple things which are presenting a problem.
If you feel like someone is obliged to answer your question on the topic which isn't even regarding the Aura of Courage and only Aura of Courage, you are wrong. And again, it would be of a great help if you could explain it yourself as well as the purpose of your question.
I'll try again :
- Reminding you of the previous post regarding the practicality. Dealing with the problem that you can fix takes prevalence over the problem you can't be sure how to fix. Noted : both are problems. Noted : both need fixing. Noted : Data presentable to Aura of Courage, ergo, fix. Noted : Paladin > Other classes.
- Reminding you of the perspective on the party composition balancing out. I've noted many arguments out of which you didn't even take the time to reply given the fact that you can't reply to them because even though you lack logical perception on many accounts in your arguments, you are still not going to say that it is better to take a TR in the dungeon rather than a Paladin.
You see, I can do that too far better than you. Who will you pick? TR or OP in the dungeon? Answer this "simple question". <--- you see, that sort of a thing is ambivalent, ambiguous and doesn't really prove anything worthwhile and can also lead to a significant jumping to conclusions, however in my case even with a question as silly as that I still hold Higher Ground (remembered your silly SW quotes back then) simply because my question is far more relevant to the balance than yours will ever be.
Your answer to my arguments is "really?" thus again portraying the poor argumentative skills, leaning back to your question which got destroyed in an instance. Great way to NOT argue properly.
Again, practicality and simplicity. If you will take Paladin over the Trickster rogue in the dungeon, or any other class for that matter, that means that Party composition is not balanced. Can you prove this wrong? If you can, then you have a valid point that Paladin and AC are fine as they are. If you can't, then you do not really have a case nor have anything to seek in arguing over some ambiguous results regarding the features.
Try to keep it simple and focus because there is a problem. If you do not want to acknowledge it, that is completely your right. If you want to prove how Aura of Courage is fine,then don't ask ME to prove it. Provide data charts which explain that AoC is fine as it is. So far you only buried yourself with the ACT log and I doubt that you can escape that one.
Any other discussion is really excessive and would be a terrible eyesore in the topic. So far you didn't prove anything worthwhile regarding the AoC, other than it deals way too much damage in comparison to other features.
Also, I do not mind the DC's power sharing because DC BUILDS it and it takes a lot of Power for it to function properly.
In the same vein I do not mind the Masterwork gear with the 2%+ damage share because people took TIME and effort to build it, which you can't really say for Aura of Courage. In fact, I can't think of a single one spell or item in the game that gives you as much as Aura of Courage does. Everything else takes time and effort to build efficiently.
It was because the poster didn't understood the mechanics, HAMSTER happens, we argued against it, it was corrected, it could have been water under the bridge.
ITF is more or less at the same level as AoC, especially where it's important, on a DPS, it's better in some aspect, and worse in others, but in the big picture it's in the same region. OP has other benefits (and power share), but at the non BiS levels, it's most likely the fact that it's easier to tank with than the other things.
No one says that classes are balanced and everything great, nor this thread was about class comparison. The comparison came from the stipulation that AoC is so much greater than other mechanics of other classes, when the major difference is not that it is higher buff or unique but that is shows on ACT while others are direct multiplier and wont show, and this is a very bad reason to balance power for, for where it displayed or not.
"So far you didn't prove anything worthwhile regarding the AoC, other than it deals way too much damage in comparison to other features"
This is your stipulation, as youv'e said that the questions was answered, please provide the numbers for comparison. Ah and you can take DO DC for the comparison, no need to involve power share.
who you gonna picky micky?
This is the level of your arguments:
"Once again I have to plunge to the depths of the abyss in order to try and put some logic behind what this person preaches. I've yet to find a single person who contradicts himself this much. "
Keep on going..
But ofc I can answer, unlike you, obviously TR, why would I make a party and wont bring myself....
I can destroy your arguments all day and night long, but I think it's far enough. We disagree, move on. I wasn't even talking to you. I want to talk with people who know what are the main issues in the Neverwinter in terms of the balance. That ain't you. Sorry micky.
You still failed to answer a simple question, do numbers frighten you? Don't be afraid, we will correct you if you will get it wrong. Only those that do not try will never do mistakes.
Why do you add the name of my dog/account at the end of your posts?
BTW, you should get some sleep, sitting on the forums all day and all night long can't be healthy for you.
Also, the topic is called "FIX AURA OF COURAGE" and the 99.99% of my writing was directed towards that. I do not care what you and "someone else" discusses regarding the topic you may want to discuss about. That's not my focus. At least you may do, as any reasonable human being who's capable of civility, is to ignore me if you find me unreasonable and/or whatever else you may conjecture from my writing.
I sincerely do not care for what you have to write nor I read your posts whenever I come to the topic because you've proven yourself to be completely unreasonable in any possible discussion and completely unreasonable for any serious talk. This is the opinion I have of you currently and I've had it since the topic regarding the, I believe, 2xDC topic, where you also were talking how it's fine and I were taking how it needs to die out.
Obviously, I was correct and developers saw reasoning behind balancing the party composition which makes me happy to see that developers care for the status of the game. I do not think that you care for the party composition and to make things even sadder, you didn't even take a hint that I'm asking for TR buffs in a somewhat salient way. You are simply far too vitriolic in the way you behave and discuss things and it also doesn't help that you lead astray from the problem that I've talked about with some person.
The good person I am, I tried to talk to you yet again knowing that it's going to fail miserably trying to put some sense into you, but I can stoically confirm that I've tried and I do not see that as my failure. I can only hope that you will see some reasoning in the future, although I think it's slim pickings.
Next time I doubt I will talk to you since it's bothersome.
Keep on discussing me, as 99.99% of your word count is me.
But "unreasonable" ? You can do better, I'm sure, be creative, the abyss one was a good start.
whitout doing nothing...how about that 195% bonus stats from bondings
whit rank 14 enchants..how about tenser..snail and other legendary mounts that give you free stats
and bonus dmg whitout doing shiit..all just pasive..and wheel 30% dmg ..soul crystal 50% dmg how about reducing/changing another
word for nerfing this first before you touch OP AoC..
or why not reducing bonding bonus stats to 140% add a cooldown on them after they proc for 60 seconds like glyps..this will fix your power creep...will not just great??
Personally, I was always against the Bondings due to how overused they were, however lately I do feel like many people like them and do not mind having them slotted. The game simply went towards that direction, so that's good. The bondings got a tremendous nerf which I predicted will happen. I also predict yet another, smaller, nerf to the Bondings and a bit of an upscale to the Augments.
- The power from the DC does not come "for free". It scales. A DC needs to be well equipped, and most of the DCs went into more Recovery builds in the past couple of mods. Furthermore, it is not as if the DC power sharing isn't representing a problem, of course, but the status of the game is such that a Devoted Cleric was always the GO-TO support class. It is questionable just what or how much the DC should be molded by since the lass already saw some high ups and downs. It is tricky, to say the least.
Personally, I'm all for DC being able to heal and deal the most damage to the Undead type of the enemies. However, the players got used to the premise of DC being a powersharing debuffing powerhouse, so it wouldn't make much sense to return the role to the DC as Heal-Only capability. Now, this intrinsically leads to the problem known as "healadin". now, this explicitly portrays how a Pally's Daily can make an entire other class role obsolete! Now that's how important it is to balance out the classes.
- Tenser's Floating Disc is a major puzzle for me in terms of the lore. Lore only. Mounts that give some bonuses are completely fine in my opinion because they are also very expensive. In terms of what you'd build with your character first, you don't say "Tenser's Floating disc'. Now, from a lore standpoint it's puzzling that Tenser's Floating Disc doesn't give INT buff since Tenser is a super-famous mage. Like, why? Oh, well. Tenser's Floating Disc was introduced at one time as the most expensive, rare and cool looking mount at the time. After the Tenser other legendary mounts emerged with their own bonuses. I also think that Tenser changed some of it's description along the line. I do not remember that you needed to activate its power in order for it to be useful. All in all a simple Elixir of Fate can do as much as Tenser's floating disc for a much, much longer time.
- Debuffing enemies in a party composition and hitting when all the buffs are present takes great amount of skill, timing and precision. DC and CW especially. CW even more than DC since Chaos magic is randomized. Now, Chaos magic is one of the best buffing options, but got reworked at least twice so far. I mainly use it on a lower geared CW that I main for the sake of the heals at times. If Life-Steal was a bit more prominent, I'd probably keep a Renegade CW simply because I like that class due to the randomness of the Chaos Magic. I like it's aesthetics and features even though it's not the most reliable spell. So, you can't have it as the most reliable buff option. Furthermore, the Aura of Courage gets all those buffs and scales alongside with them. Those buffs do not scale with eachother, at least not anymore.
I personally think that DC is a bit too powerful in terms of the debuffs and I avoid talking about the GF because that class is so broken that I wouldn't know where to start with. Paladins are something I'm more familiar with and Aura of Courage has that ease of access so that fixing it can be simple, quick and beneficial for anyone. The less possible alternative would be to make other classes to do the same so that it doesn't matter which class you bring, they all bring something to the table for no effort whatsoever. That's far less likely to happen, so a nerf to the Aura of Courage is the next most logical step for the developers from my experience of the game.
Please note, if you do main a Paladin or anyone else, you have to understand that this is the way MMOs go along and change over the time. The class I main went through some serious nerfs over the time and some serious buffs over the time. It's finally settling, so the focus comes on the spells which do far more than they should.
Aura of Courage doesn't fit anything be it by its name or by it's power sharing or by it's scaling with the debuffs or by it's mandatory position. It's just such an explicit feature that it may potentially ruin the game, if that didn't happen already for many.
The main problem is - people took time and dedication to build paladins. It became a trend to have a paladin. The changes come slow. You finally finalize something and thing you gonna play it, but then - nerf.
When I first took Lightning enchantment after a 2 year pause and saw what it does on CW I immediately knew it's going to be nerfed. And MOD13 did just that.
So, as a general rule in this video-game, if something is too good to be true, it probably is. Do not rush into building something because there's a very good chance it won't work over the long periods of time. I made that mistake twice, which is why I finally understand how development functions around here.
Some powers stand out too much and such is the Aura of Courage feature. It needs to lose between 25%-50% of it's overall power, same like Lostmauth set lost it's power, same like bondings lost their power, same like 2 x DC lost their power.
Always count on it that it may happen and that weaker classes might get boosts. Such is the case, for instance, with the TR and the correspondence with the Lostmauth set bonus which affects the encounter Path of Blades. It calls for a valid build since neither Path of Blades nor Lostmauth set aren't exponentially hard-hitting powers, but together with some effort and valid weapon sets, they can be such a good combo for the dungeon clearing without the necessity to play the most damaging class.
In such a scenario you build Weapon sets and you Build Lostmauth set bonus, so the overall sum of it adds up to your future encounter use and all its ticks alongside. That makes for a fun gameplay, something that's not meta, something that's interesting to see.
Cheers
Assassin's Covenant is a *tradeoff* - a player has to *lose* defensive stats in order to gain offensive stats.
You of all people know the problems behind Tenebrous - they were so strong in the past that they were nerfed into the ground. Now almost no one uses it. Tenebrous should be an object lesson on why it's a bad idea to use HP as an offensive weapon.
As for Steely Defense (Power increases by 20% of Defense) - the GWF is the *only class* that has this type of feat, which turns a defensive stat into an offensive stat, without any sort of defensive tradeoff needed. That is because, one might surmise, that GWF is a berserker glass-cannon fighter class. Moreover, Defense is a worse defensive stat than HP (in most cases), so to take best advantage of this feat, a GWF has to purposefully stack a worse defensive stat. I think everyone would cry bloody murder if Steely Defense feat was changed to be based off of the GWF's HP instead of Defense. But suddenly the equivalent mechanic in terms of Aura of Courage is okay - for everyone, not just glass cannon melee fighters?
Edit: Assume for the purpose of discussion that 20% of damage comes from Aura of Courage. That means 80% does not, and if Aura of Courage were to suddenly go away, then that fighter would have to increase other sources of damage by 25% (1/0.8) in order to compensate for its loss. What would be the equivalent in terms of Power?
Let P1 be the fighter's Power with AoC, and let P2 be the fighter's power without AoC, that would have to be higher in order to replace AoC's loss.
From the damage formula:
(1+P1/39908.4)(1+0.25) = (1+P2/39908.4)
Solving for P2:
P2 = P1 + 0.25*(P1+39908.4)
The fractional increase in Power, (P2-P1)/P1, required to replace AoC:
(P2-P1)/P1 = 0.25*(1+39908.4/P1)
Substituting P1 = 200,000 for "BIS" levels of Power, we get (P2-P1)/P1 = 0.30 = 30%. So AoC represents a *free*, *buffed* Steely Defense feat for *everyone*, using the *better* defensive stat, HP, as its base. Now do you see the problem?
You are showing that AoC is on average 30% buff? Ok, no argument, I think we well established that it's there more or less. What the difference is from ITF, HG, etc... ? You can compare those with and without, call it HG aura, and compare to power, so what the issue here? The fact that you need HP? You already have HP, you can't get rid of HP, unless you strip and you wont..
You always repeat about stacking defensive stats, but what is that stacking? How much HP is the non stacking version, and how much is the stacked?
From what I saw it's about 20k-32k HP difference for DPS class, where the non-stacked is about 200k HP. So what is this tacking all about? it's 4 radiant and a mount, maybe an artifact, there are no more slots...
What is the bottom line? That HP based mechanics is worse than direct buff? No, sorry you didn't prove that, on the contrary, it looks like a valid mechanics with diminished scaling. Nothing exceptional as compared to multiplicative buff. If there is procing issue for some classes, then it's a bug issue not mechanics.
If you want to show that buffs are evil? Ok, lets discuss this separately, for all I care cut all external buffs by about half, or diminished returns, or additive + modifier function, or plenty of solutions as long as you do it for everyone and with thought out proportion, and not create a pitchfork campaign per class, powershare today, DO tomorrow, AoC next week, longstrider on the weekends.
Base it on the right reasons, not because ti's big numbers on ACT, that say nothing except that they are big. Like it was popular in powershare threads "OMG OMG OMG 30k power. NEEEERRRFFF!!!!!1111" when it's was less than any normal buff. (No, I'm not saying that power-share is in great place, I'm saying that shouting because it's 30k and not 30% and 30k looks bigger is just wrong)
And without forgetting that every nerf suggestion is a person who plays a class. Every suggestion shouldn't kill a class on a whim, and somehow people forget that suggestions have repercussions, this is mostly how we end up with heavy handed nerfs, that throw classes into uselessness for years. Mostly because most (not talking about specific people) do not bother to understand the basic mechanics of what they shout about.
So what's the bottom line of this long thread in bug reports? I don't think that 'fixing' it to be from OP HP is a desired outcome.
Do you want it turned to flat 30% buff, instead of HP based? Will this solve your HP concerns mechanics? Though please do take into consideration the questions above, and look into what is that investment, because all this 'investment' is summed up as very little, arguable, questionable, conditional, with diminished gains as gear improve, and for a lot of AD. I don't see anyone buy into this, and if some do, this is not comparable to bondings or lostmauth in terms of gain/cost and 'must have' factor.
Will it be a valid warning to warn people to nor rely on single mechanics, spend 10mil on a mount for perhaps 1.5-2% gain in DPS (and even that in specific stat conditions and not for most classes), when Cryptic known to nerf things. Sure valid warning, feel free to post one, probably best not in a bug section and not addressed to a dev.
What I saw in those posts is creating hysteria from the wrong reasons, maybe well intentioned, maybe self serving, I don't know, but the result is the same, the basis is wrong and the suggestions of the fix either wrong (contradict to the displayed problem) or non-existant.
House Miliskeera in exile (NW)
Sereska Miliskeera, Lvl 70 OP - Devotion (Just.)/Protection (Just.)
Shizlee Miliskeera, Lvl 70 DC - Divine Oracle (Right.)/Anoited Champion (Faith.)
Finithey Miliskeera, Lvl 70 HR - Stormwarden (Combat)/Pathfinder (Trapper)
Maya Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 CW - Spellstorm
Irae Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 TR - Master Inflitrator
Member - Houseclan t'Charvon (STO)
Shiarrael e'Tal'Aura t'Charvon, LvL 60, Rom Sci
S'aana ir'Virinat t'Charvon, Lvl 60, Rom Eng
T'Lyra, LvL 60, Fed, Vul Sci
Ta'el, Lvl 60, Rom Tac
Aura of Courage is clearly the problem with these runs right?
Does AoC need to work as the tooltip states?
-Yes.
Should it be nerfed?
-Not yet.
Should it be toned down because the OP's have way more HP?
-Definitely, but not entirely. OP's who built on it highly should perform better after the fix, while with an "average OP" (whatever it means) should feel the same as prefix.
And aren't radiants actually cheaper than BI & friends?
If you mean that someone will make an enchant loadout with r14 enchants just in the case there is OP, I think we really discuss the minor percent of the BiS population who can afford this for the minor DPS increase, for those that even that exists. I know directly, or know of quite a few BiS players and I don't think anyone will have a separate set if enchants just for AoC and another for without.
But that's for points sake, not from real objection.
I don't think that there is objection to make it to work from OP HP and even adjusting it accordingly to lets say 0.8% of HP (from 0.9%). Except that you will probably see "OP LFG Tomb 900000 HP".
Personally I don't see what is the noise and hysteria about 1% here or 2% there. There are much more pressuring and high priority issues than this, and even entire buff system is one of those issues. 6 forum pages over 2% dps....