hey, why don't we make a general NERF thread, collecting all powers feats etc etc we want to see "urgently" nerfed ---> especially in classes/builds we don't main?
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arcanjo86Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,093Arc User
edited February 2018
did you thought how it will kill devotion pally(support class that players still use) damage? protection pally have a 1 % hp buff power as cap from damage taken, + pally dont have ability score stats to boost its damage, all his damage comes from his hp, the problems is the game not having enough hardcore content for end game player with r14 enchantments and runes/r13 weapon/armor enchantment, and each time they add new campaign mobs and dungeons become trivial as you reach same level of the end game players.
the problems is the game not having enough hardcore content for end game player with r14 enchantments and runes/r13 weapon/armor enchantment, and each time they add new campaign mobs and dungeons become trivial as you reach same level of the end game players.
I have done TONG runs with players with all R13/R14's. Most of them went fine, 25-40 minutes or so depending.
I'm sorry, that video is not about having good gear. And it's not even about skill either, because despite your gear, you cannot beat TONG with poor skill. That video is about abusing 'undocumented features'. Like broken Aura of Courage and how it scales with buffs and power. THAT is what needs to be fixed. Not just "make stuff harder".
Now suppose the Radiant enchantment is used. There is no change to the Power, so the damage multiplier remains the same at 1.9205. The Aura of Courage base damage would increase to 0.01*153,000 = 1,530. So the total damage is now 2,530 * 1.9205 = 4858.89.
Now suppose the Azure enchantment is used. Using the above method of calculation, the new Power is 36,955.52, and so the new Power damage multiplier is 1.9260. The Aura of Courage base damage is the same as in the baseline case, of 1,500. So the total damage is now 2,500 * 1.9260 = 4,815.02.
And that's using base stats which are well below BiS. At BiS the difference narrows even more by larger base power and HP numbers.
And then with the claims that AoC is in some way responsible for speed runs. Sure it contributes... but not dramatically more than other support mechanics. Less, by a good margin.
I think OP has some kind of vendetta against AoC based on poor understanding. Others started out confused but are getting worried because the community sometimes aligns with demagogues preaching this kind of stuff.
It is not a "vendetta" against AoC. It is the disturbing trend that we are going to witness the whole Lostmauth fiasco all over again with the War Triceratops mount. The point of the above calculation was not to be quantitative for a BiS player (I don't give a damn about BiS). The point was to demonstrate that AoC incentivizes even GWFs to stack HP over Defense, even though GWFs have a feat that gives them bonus Power based on Defense.
Can you honestly argue that a situation in which players are incentivized to forego self-buffs in favor of a Paladin group buff is working as intended? That is absurd.
And AGAIN, the proof is in the pudding - go chat with your BIS DPS players, they are all walking around with tons of HP so as to take advantage of Aura of Courage. They aren't walking around with Azures or Black Ice enchants.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
It is not a "vendetta" against AoC. It is the disturbing trend that we are going to witness the whole Lostmauth fiasco all over again with the War Triceratops mount. The point of the above calculation was not to be quantitative for a BiS player (I don't give a damn about BiS). The point was to demonstrate that AoC incentivizes even GWFs to stack HP over Defense, even though GWFs have a feat that gives them bonus Power based on Defense.
Can you honestly argue that a situation in which players are incentivized to forego self-buffs in favor of a Paladin group buff is working as intended? That is absurd.
And AGAIN, the proof is in the pudding - go chat with your BIS DPS players, they are all walking around with tons of HP so as to take advantage of Aura of Courage. They aren't walking around with Azures or Black Ice enchants.
Then discuss and post actual truths without sprinkling it with hyperbole and soapbox level of demagoguery
So if nothing changes, this is what I predict will happen:
Players will rush to buy the War Triceratops in Mod 13.
These players will abuse the heck out of Aura of Courage, and trivialize the new Trial, Cradle of the Death God. (Much like the broken Anointed Army trivialized the Assault on Svardborg trial in Mod 10b.) All the work that you put into the mechanics of this trial will be for naught.
And that video, you repeatedly imply if not outright blame the fact that AoC account player HP and not OP HP is responsible for trivialization of content and those speed runs. While your own numbers disprove this.
1. An OP has more HP than the DPS classes -> A change for AoC to count OP HP will Increase the overall damage! 2. Per your own numbers the damage increase from the Trispetor is negligible.
So perhaps instead of creating FUD about AoC and try to self fulfill your own prophesy about people investing in that raptor by creating this noise about AoC, how about actually do what you claim you want to do and show that the numbers from the raptor are not gaining much to midlevel player and perhaps even less to BiS so it's not a good investment. You may also want to warn that the mechanics may be changed and there is a risk of loosing the investment over that minuscule gain.
And stop this agenda that AoC responsible for speed runs, and trivialization of content. If you want to prove that, sure, prove that it's the most significant factor in damage, because right now, I don't see myself buying any raptors, if something I need a snail. And more so, then it's an overall issue that has nothing to do with the mod13 and raptors specifically and correcting the AoC to be from OP HP will not solve that, as it will be higher damage.
> @chemjeff said: > > And AGAIN, the proof is in the pudding - go chat with your BIS DPS players, they are all walking around with tons of HP so as to take advantage of Aura of Courage. They aren't walking around with Azures or Black Ice enchants.
You are confusing 2 different 'slots' here. Mount equip bonus where 16k HP competes with 4K power and Defense slots where radiants compete with azures and black ice. AoC can be the determining factor in the defense slot and be sub optimal in the mount slot. Because someone chooses HP in their defense slots does not mean they will choose HP in their mount slot. The available options are different.
I am not interested in arguing if AoC is good or bad or whatever, just that stacking of HP in defense slots does not mean it is best to stack HP in mount slots. You can also consider the price of Dominance insignia (power) vs Prosperity (HP and gold gain).
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
The point of the above calculation was not to be quantitative for a BiS player (I don't give a damn about BiS).
*snip*
And AGAIN, the proof is in the pudding - go chat with your BIS DPS players, they are all walking around with tons of HP so as to take advantage of Aura of Courage. They aren't walking around with Azures or Black Ice enchants.
If you don't give a damn about them, stop using them as proof?
You consistently are muddying the arguments, comparing things in a remarkably skewed way.
So perhaps instead of creating FUD about AoC and try to self fulfill your own prophesy about people investing in that raptor by creating this noise about AoC, how about actually do what you claim you want to do and show that the numbers from the raptor are not gaining much to midlevel player and perhaps even less to BiS so it's not a good investment. You may also want to warn that the mechanics may be changed and there is a risk of loosing the investment over that minuscule gain.
This! Rather than spreading misinformation about AoC, warn people about the risks of min/maxing builds around individual mechanics.
Can you honestly argue that a situation in which players are incentivized to forego self-buffs in favor of a Paladin group buff is working as intended? That is absurd.
That would be class / build synergy. I don't think it's absurd or inherently bad that I make build/gear decisions based on who I expect to run with. Class synergies can make a game deeper.
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,405Arc User
Can you honestly argue that a situation in which players are incentivized to forego self-buffs in favor of a Paladin group buff is working as intended? That is absurd.
That would be class / build synergy. I don't think it's absurd or inherently bad that I make build/gear decisions based on who I expect to run with. Class synergies can make a game deeper.
Yes, with loadout, it is common to have 2+ set of gears. Every character I play have 2 set of gear although that was not for this synergy reason.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
And that video, you repeatedly imply if not outright blame the fact that AoC account player HP and not OP HP is responsible for trivialization of content and those speed runs. While your own numbers disprove this.
When the DPS players themselves report that ~30% of their damage comes from AoC, what exactly am I supposed to conclude? That 30% is negligible? That they're wrong?
Once again the point of that calculation was not to demonstrate the actual damage increase in an actual fight. Obviously, since I neglected the presence of any buffs. It was to demonstrate how powerful AoC is compared to other similar choices. For heaven's sake, adding HP in a defense slot gives a greater DPS boost than adding Power in an offense slot. You cannot convince me that this is "working as intended", that a defensive stat should increase one's damage more than an offensive stat.
I am not trying to sell War Triceratops. I don't want people to buy it if it means AoC is going to be nerfed soon. But I think people will anyway, unfortunately.
Incidentally, it would be nice if the authors of that video came forward and said how much of their damage came from AoC. If they can post an ACT log that says AoC was only a few percent of their damage, then sure I'll shut up about it. But I don't think that is the case.
Ok so ive watched the video, those guys have an insane amount of buffs and powers running, how you can watch that and conclude that amoungst all that aoc is the reason theyre running Tong so quickly is beyond me. You dont even have access to the combat log and admit above you dont know how much damage aoc is contributing. Your rational seems to be theyre running Tong quicly, they have an OP, hes likely to be running aoc, aha tha must be to blame. Ill try to put it into perspective. I frequently run Tong in all 16k - 17k groups and yes were all stacking HP (amoungst other things) Aoc damages purely off Hp so there is no way the group in your video have a significant amount more HP than we do, they may even have less. What the group in your video have is that they are clearly synced to the max on all their powers, where as our runs are just made up if people on the friends list and we make minimal effort to sync outside standard class builds. With aoc running, dependent on several factors our Tong runs come in between 17 and 22 mins. Without aoc about 2 - 3 mins more. The group in your video shaved 5 mins off that. Aoc doesnt crit and isnt buffed. Baring in mind we are all near max il and take all the hp available, the aoc damage they are doing cant be noticibly more and is possibly less. So theyre getting 5 mins outside of aoc. This wont be down to one thing, they will be sqeezing every last drop out of every power and buff they have available, but what ever it is they are doing its saving them more than twice the amount of time aoc does. Of course aoc helps, all powers and buffs do thats the point, but compared to stacking power for example, are really fine tuning group synergys its negligable.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
And that video, you repeatedly imply if not outright blame the fact that AoC account player HP and not OP HP is responsible for trivialization of content and those speed runs. While your own numbers disprove this.
When the DPS players themselves report that ~30% of their damage comes from AoC, what exactly am I supposed to conclude? That 30% is negligible? That they're wrong?
So why you ask to increase it? Here your opening post:
Can we please have a fix to the OP's Aura of Courage? The tooltip states:
"You and allies within 30' of you deal 1% of your Maximum Hit Points as bonus Radiant Damage."
It is clearly supposed to refer to the OP's hit points for the source of the damage, but instead, AoC actually uses the attacker's hit points as the source of the damage.
As we know that OP HP is higher than DD HP and in fact this will increase AoC effectiveness.
Once again the point of that calculation was not to demonstrate the actual damage increase in an actual fight. Obviously, since I neglected the presence of any buffs. It was to demonstrate how powerful AoC is compared to other similar choices. For heaven's sake, adding HP in a defense slot gives a greater DPS boost than adding Power in an offense slot. You cannot convince me that this is "working as intended", that a defensive stat should increase one's damage more than an offensive stat.
Personally I don't care if it's WAI or not, I'm more annoyed by double intended posts, and the only reason I've posted is because of the contradictions on the posts and the bias.
If you brought up as your opinion that 30% of the damage is too much for single mechanics and it should be nerfed, or more correctly that you want to be based on OP HP because you are mid-geared semi-casual GWF that afraid to invest in HP because you think you will be left behind in terms of damage and on the other hand Cryptic has a very bad record of letting things foster and then nerfing it to the ground, then we could discuss, what it the investment, what is the gain and how it compares to other things.
Instead you bring claims that AoC is the major factor in speed runs and content trivialization with videos that prove nothing.
Lets address the first point first:
I'm sorry, but 30% of something, when it's out of $1 or 1billion $ is still the same 30% but in one case you are poor the other filthy rich, so what made you rich? What made the total large? And what is the 70%? Context.
First of all 30% is the high end, and for specific classes that have multiple procs, for the rest of us mortals it's closer to 20%, but still, why is a class contribution of about 40% buff ( something that is 30% of the damage means we need 42% buff to the rest to get the same result 0.7 * 1.42 = 0.994) Is something so unique ? DC HG is 40%, GF ITF is 30%, HR Longstrider 40%, TR buff GWF ego by at least 50%
So?
About the second part of investment, an average player will have 150k HP more or less without investing in it specifically. Guilds have it because it's the best defensive stat (especially in PvP) and gear has it because, otherwise we will be dead. Bondings do not transfer HP, so that leaves us with 4? defensive slots, which is 16k HP maximum. That will make it what DPS increase? Is it comparable to lostmauth 20% DPS increase? No. Same with the mount, lostmouth was a couple millions for large increase, which turned it into a must have. In this case we have 16k HP which make it much less for much more AD.
So just don't buy it. And if someone want to squeze that additional 3% and can afford Possibly nerfed mechanics, lets warn them. "Consider yourself warned dear reader"
Once again the point of that calculation was not to demonstrate the actual damage increase in an actual fight. Obviously, since I neglected the presence of any buffs. It was to demonstrate how powerful AoC is compared to other similar choices. For heaven's sake, adding HP in a defense slot gives a greater DPS boost than adding Power in an offense slot. You cannot convince me that this is "working as intended", that a defensive stat should increase one's damage more than an offensive stat.
We went from an almost defensible "switching from defensive stats to HP helps dps" to "HP in a defense slot gives a greater DPS boost than power in an offense slot". That's just false. Do you realize what you're doing escalating your rhetoric with more falsehood? It's not helping your case.
Incidentally, it would be nice if the authors of that video came forward and said how much of their damage came from AoC. If they can post an ACT log that says AoC was only a few percent of their damage, then sure I'll shut up about it. But I don't think that is the case.
Incidentally, it would be nice if the burden of proof lay with the party making outlandish claims, rather than some stranger who posted a speedrun video.
You have offered no evidence that AoC is responsible for speedruns, but you expect others will offer you evidence to the contrary.
When others attempt to give some evidence to show you that you are not understanding the mechanic completely, you dismiss them with hyperbolic language and falsehoods... what are you trying to accomplish here?
Once again the point of that calculation was not to demonstrate the actual damage increase in an actual fight. Obviously, since I neglected the presence of any buffs. It was to demonstrate how powerful AoC is compared to other similar choices. For heaven's sake, adding HP in a defense slot gives a greater DPS boost than adding Power in an offense slot. You cannot convince me that this is "working as intended", that a defensive stat should increase one's damage more than an offensive stat.
We went from an almost defensible "switching from defensive stats to HP helps dps" to "HP in a defense slot gives a greater DPS boost than power in an offense slot". That's just false. Do you realize what you're doing escalating your rhetoric with more falsehood? It's not helping your case.
It is not false. Consider: DPSer, 30,000 Power, 150,000 HP. Power damage multiplier is 1.9205. AoC base damage is 1,500. For a hit with base damage of 1,000, then total damage is (1,000 + 1,500) * 1.9205 = 4,821.07.
Adding a Rank 12 Radiant as Power: Power damage multiplier is 1.9402. AoC base damage is 1,500. For a hit with base damage of 1,000, then total damage is (1,000 + 1,500) * 1.9402 = 4,850.38.
Adding a Rank 12 Radiant as HP: Power damage multiplier is 1.9205. AoC base damage is 1,530. For a hit with base damage of 1,000, then total damage is (1,000 + 1,530) * 1.9205 = 4,858.89.
Incidentally, it would be nice if the authors of that video came forward and said how much of their damage came from AoC. If they can post an ACT log that says AoC was only a few percent of their damage, then sure I'll shut up about it. But I don't think that is the case.
Incidentally, it would be nice if the burden of proof lay with the party making outlandish claims, rather than some stranger who posted a speedrun video.
You have offered no evidence that AoC is responsible for speedruns, but you expect others will offer you evidence to the contrary.
When others attempt to give some evidence to show you that you are not understanding the mechanic completely, you dismiss them with hyperbolic language and falsehoods... what are you trying to accomplish here?
I don't do speedruns. I can't tell you what the precise damage sources are from. But the DPSers themselves claim that AoC damage is ~30% of their total damage. Incidentally, I have NEVER claimed that AoC is the ONLY REASON for speedruns. Only that it is a substantial factor. And that is backed up by what the DPSers themselves claim.
And what am I trying to accomplish? I am trying to avoid another Lostmauth nerf fiasco. And another Bondings nerf fiasco, as well. The devs at the time were accused of intentionally profiting from broken mechanics by continuing to feed the brokenness with more and more ways to use it, and letting it fester for longer and longer. They are continuing down the same path by allowing the broken AoC to continue while deliberately introducing items that will feed the brokenness. @asterdahl please don't do this. You will have a lot MORE angry players on your hands.
So either they will listen to me, and others, who want broken things like AoC fixed, and retain happy customers. Or they won't, and people will run out and buy more and more HP-granting items, like War Triceratops - which I have shown is *better* than a 4,000 Power mount, under the same broken AoC mechanics - and then when the inevitable fix to AoC finally comes, we will repeat history all over again.
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arcanjo86Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,093Arc User
aura of courage: 31%(4points) of the player hp as radiant damage(it never crits), its an added damage like fire buff from wheel of elements.
It is not false. Consider: DPSer, 30,000 Power, 150,000 HP. Power damage multiplier is 1.9205. AoC base damage is 1,500. For a hit with base damage of 1,000, then total damage is (1,000 + 1,500) * 1.9205 = 4,821.07.
Adding a Rank 12 Radiant as Power: Power damage multiplier is 1.9402. AoC base damage is 1,500. For a hit with base damage of 1,000, then total damage is (1,000 + 1,500) * 1.9402 = 4,850.38.
Adding a Rank 12 Radiant as HP: Power damage multiplier is 1.9205. AoC base damage is 1,530. For a hit with base damage of 1,000, then total damage is (1,000 + 1,530) * 1.9205 = 4,858.89.
Your math only works because now you have mysteriously modeled AoC as dealing 60% of the damage on the hit (1500/(1000+1500))... I don't even know if you're trolling or just really misguided. You can't just make up math that justifies your belief!
Assuming the BEST CASE that AoC makes up roughly 30% of your damage (even though 20% is more typical for a DPS class), we get some different results
If 1,500 represents 30% of your damage, that means that the non-AoC portion is 3500 (1500/(1500+3500)=0.3)
Power damage multiplier is 1.9205. AoC base damage is 1,500. For a hit with base damage of 3,500, then total damage is (3,500 + 1,500) * 1.9205 = 9602.5
Adding a Rank 12 Radiant as Power: Power damage multiplier is 1.9402. AoC base damage is 1,500. For a hit with base damage of 3,500, then total damage is (3,500 + 1,500) * 1.9402 = 9701
Adding a Rank 12 Radiant as HP: Power damage multiplier is 1.9205. AoC base damage is 1,530. For a hit with base damage of 3,500, then total damage is (3,500 + 1,530) * 1.9205 = 9660.115
See? If we model AoC as you yourself have suggested it (30% of damage) then Power is better than HP by a good bit (+1% dps vs 0.6% dps... almost twice as good in this hypothetical set-up).
And what am I trying to accomplish? I am trying to avoid another Lostmauth nerf fiasco. And another Bondings nerf fiasco, as well. The devs at the time were accused of intentionally profiting from broken mechanics by continuing to feed the brokenness with more and more ways to use it, and letting it fester for longer and longer. They are continuing down the same path by allowing the broken AoC to continue while deliberately introducing items that will feed the brokenness. @asterdahl please don't do this. You will have a lot MORE angry players on your hands.
So either they will listen to me, and others, who want broken things like AoC fixed, and retain happy customers. Or they won't, and people will run out and buy more and more HP-granting items, like War Triceratops - which I have shown is *better* than a 4,000 Power mount, under the same broken AoC mechanics - and then when the inevitable fix to AoC finally comes, we will repeat history all over again.
That is noble and desirable if it's done based on informed discourse, using facts and logic to make a case for something.
What you are doing is spreading misinformation and spewing hyperbolic claims to try to elicit an emotional response in people. I hope you're unsuccessful, because what you're doing is not good for the game or the community.
Your math only works because now you have mysteriously modeled AoC as dealing 60% of the damage on the hit (1500/2500)... I don't even know if you're just trolling or just really misguided. You can't just make up math that justifies your belief!
So where is the error in my math? I used 1,000 deliberately because that is the value from the test weapon on preview, and so can be easily tested.
Assuming the BEST CASE that AoC makes up roughly 30% of your damage (even though 20% is more typical for a DPS class), we get some different results
Well at least you acknowledge that AoC can make up a substantial fraction of a DPSer's damage. Thank you for that.
So is it really so unreasonable to surmise that in a speed-run such as I posted, that AoC represents a substantial fraction of the damage? I never said AoC was the ONLY reason! And that if AoC was toned down, we would have fewer absurd 5-second boss burns especially for end-game final bosses, and that overall that would be a good thing? CONVERSELY, that by adding more and more HP sources in the game (such as War Tyrannosaurus), that AoC will become a larger and larger part of the problem?
I cannot provide numerical proof in the form of ACT logs. The only people who can are the speed-runners who are understandably unwilling to share their ACT logs in public. I can only make a logical inference that AoC is a not-insignificant part of the problem, based on simple calculations, and based on what the DPSers are themselves saying and doing.
If 1500 represents 30% of your damage, that means that the non-AoC portion is 3500 (1500/(1500+3500)=0.3)
Power damage multiplier is 1.9205. AoC base damage is 1,500. For a hit with base damage of 3,500, then total damage is (3,500 + 1,500) * 1.9205 = 9602.5
Adding a Rank 12 Radiant as Power: Power damage multiplier is 1.9402. AoC base damage is 1,500. For a hit with base damage of 3,500, then total damage is (3,500 + 1,500) * 1.9402 = 9701
Adding a Rank 12 Radiant as HP: Power damage multiplier is 1.9205. AoC base damage is 1,530. For a hit with base damage of 3,500, then total damage is (3,500 + 1,530) * 1.9205 = 9660.115
See? If we model AoC as you yourself have suggested it (30% of damage) then Power is better than HP by a good bit (+1% dps vs 0.6% dps... almost twice as good).
You are right. For small hits, HP beats Power. For larger hits, Power beats HP. I would argue that the fact that adding HP to boost damage is even competitive, even in the same ballpark, with adding Power to boost damage, is absurd.
So is it really so unreasonable to surmise that in a speed-run such as I posted, that AoC represents a substantial fraction of the damage? I never said AoC was the ONLY reason! And that if AoC was toned down, we would have fewer absurd 5-second boss burns especially for end-game final bosses, and that overall that would be a good thing? CONVERSELY, that by adding more and more HP sources in the game (such as War Tyrannosaurus), that AoC will become a larger and larger part of the problem?
If we assume that we have a 5-second boss burn. And we (generously) assume that AoC makes up 30% of your damage. What would happen to burn time if we removed AoC?
Math tells us 7.14-second boss burn.
Amazingly, that's roughly the same effect as if we say removed any combination of support mechanics increasing damage by roughly 42%.
My point?
AoC is not disproportionately strong. It's not contributing more than other stuff.
It's the combination of all of the buffs multiplying together that results in massive damage. Removing any one buff won't change the result dramatically. If you want to actually cut down on 5-second burns, you'd need to change the way that buffs interact and multiply.
I cannot provide numerical proof in the form of ACT logs. The only people who can are the speed-runners who are understandably unwilling to share their ACT logs in public. I can only make a logical inference that AoC is a not-insignificant part of the problem, based on simple calculations, and based on what the DPSers are themselves saying and doing.
But you're not making logical inferences. You're using cherrypicked / misleading examples and dismissing logical explanations. And now you've started referencing mysterious "DPSers" who admit AoC is a problem but won't share their ACT logs to prove it.
So is it really so unreasonable to surmise that in a speed-run such as I posted, that AoC represents a substantial fraction of the damage? I never said AoC was the ONLY reason! And that if AoC was toned down, we would have fewer absurd 5-second boss burns especially for end-game final bosses, and that overall that would be a good thing? CONVERSELY, that by adding more and more HP sources in the game (such as War Tyrannosaurus), that AoC will become a larger and larger part of the problem?
If we assume that we have a 5-second boss burn. And we (generously) assume that AoC makes up 30% of your damage. What would happen to burn time if we removed AoC?
Math tells us 7.14-second boss burn.
Amazingly, that's roughly the same effect as if we say removed any combination of support mechanics increasing damage by roughly 42%.
My point?
AoC is not disproportionately strong. It's not contributing more than other stuff.
It's the combination of all of the buffs multiplying together that results in massive damage. Removing any one buff won't change the result dramatically. If you want to actually cut down on 5-second burns, you'd need to change the way that buffs interact and multiply.
Wait wait wait. So based on your rough calculations, AoC damage is equivalent to a 42% buff? Empowered Break the Spirit is only a 30% buff. Empowered Forgemaster's Flame is a 15% buff. AoC is a passive class feature and it is almost as strong as BtS and FF combined? Yeah I think that is a real problem. I AGREE that the reason why there are 5-second burns is not due EXCLUSIVELY to AoC. I never said it was! I never said fixing AoC meant that we would get rid of speed runs altogether. I never suggested that fixing AoC would lead to everything being balanced. But it is a part of the problem, a not-insignificant part of the problem.
It seems like you don't want any fix to anything unless everything is fixed all at once. I say don't make the perfect the enemy of the good. I think we both agree that AoC needs some sort of fix, and with the new 16k HP mount coming, and with the memory of the Lostmauth fiasco and the Bondings fiasco in our minds, let's ask that the devs fix AoC now and work on fixing the other stuff along the way.
I cannot provide numerical proof in the form of ACT logs. The only people who can are the speed-runners who are understandably unwilling to share their ACT logs in public. I can only make a logical inference that AoC is a not-insignificant part of the problem, based on simple calculations, and based on what the DPSers are themselves saying and doing.
But you're not making logical inferences. You're using cherrypicked / misleading examples and dismissing logical explanations. And now you've started referencing mysterious "DPSers" who admit AoC is a problem but won't share their ACT logs to prove it.
Seriously.
No, that is not what I said. But I can see how you might infer that, so let me clarify. I do not claim that speed-runners think "AoC is a problem". I have no idea what speed-runners think about AoC. Maybe they think it is fine, maybe they don't. I have never done a speed run. I don't have any speed-runners on my friend's list (that I know of). You probably know more of them than I do. What I mean is, *by their actions* - choosing HP over all other defensive stats, even though those other defensive stats would result in self-buffs - they are signaling that they too view AoC as strong enough so as to forego those self-buffs. They (and you) are the ones who say that AoC makes up a substantial fraction of their damage. By their words and deeds they view AoC as indispensable. And I don't actually *know* that they won't share their ACT logs. I said that it is understandable if they don't, because I'm sure they don't want their competitors finding out their secrets. I would love to see their ACT logs as I'm sure lots of other people would too, but I am not holding my breath.
If speed-runners did not view AoC as a very necessary component of their success, they would not make so many other tradeoffs in order to utilize it. They would not forego so many self-buffs (Assassin's Covenant, Steely Defense, and others) in order to stack HP. That is my point. If you want to know their opinions on AoC, then go ask them.
And that video, you repeatedly imply if not outright blame the fact that AoC account player HP and not OP HP is responsible for trivialization of content and those speed runs. While your own numbers disprove this.
When the DPS players themselves report that ~30% of their damage comes from AoC, what exactly am I supposed to conclude? That 30% is negligible? That they're wrong?
So why you ask to increase it? Here your opening post:
@dupeks was right, I didn't quite understand how AoC worked initially. So my initial request was off the mark. I would suggest that AoC remain unchanged for how it works for the Paladin, but that the damage from allies should be reduced by some factor (say, a factor of 5). That would allow Paladins who are soloing to still retain the benefit of the status quo, while working to reduce the broken status as it is applied to allies. But that is just one idea among many for fixing it.
If you brought up as your opinion that 30% of the damage is too much for single mechanics and it should be nerfed, or more correctly that you want to be based on OP HP because you are mid-geared semi-casual GWF that afraid to invest in HP because you think you will be left behind in terms of damage and on the other hand Cryptic has a very bad record of letting things foster and then nerfing it to the ground, then we could discuss, what it the investment, what is the gain and how it compares to other things.
Instead you bring claims that AoC is the major factor in speed runs and content trivialization with videos that prove nothing.
Okay, first off, I did not start this discussion because I wanted OP's to carry my supposedly weak-HAMSTER GWF through content. If I wanted to be carried by broken OP features, I would have kept my mouth shut!
Second, I never claimed that AoC is "the major factor". I have said all along it is a substantial factor, and I'm right.
However after re-reading my comments I do see how you could have come to the conclusion that I was focusing on AoC above all else. It was not because I thought AoC was the only buff. It was because that particular buff was going to be most directly affected by the upcoming changes.
I'm sorry, but 30% of something, when it's out of $1 or 1billion $ is still the same 30% but in one case you are poor the other filthy rich, so what made you rich? What made the total large? And what is the 70%? Context.
First of all 30% is the high end, and for specific classes that have multiple procs, for the rest of us mortals it's closer to 20%, but still, why is a class contribution of about 40% buff ( something that is 30% of the damage means we need 42% buff to the rest to get the same result 0.7 * 1.42 = 0.994) Is something so unique ? DC HG is 40%, GF ITF is 30%, HR Longstrider 40%, TR buff GWF ego by at least 50%
So?
No, AoC is not so unique. There are plenty of strong buffs in the game. But the new 16k HP mount will affect AoC most directly, hence the urgency to fix it sooner rather than later.
Open question: what portion of damage would be acceptable for a supporting class to provide to a main damage dealer?
I ask this because it's a central question to deciding how AoC should be changed.
Well, it is a class feature. So a Paladin doesn't actually have to do anything except stand there in order for the party members to receive this buff. The only other class feature that I can think of that is even remotely like this is the DO DC's Terrifying Insight, and that is a 20% buff, and I think you could make the case that TI is too strong. As a rule of thumb I don't think any passive should grant anything higher than a 10% buff if the player doesn't actually have to do anything for the party to receive the buffs. That would not be the case for, say, MoF CW, since in order for the party to receive buffs arising from, say, Swath of Destruction, the MoF CW actually has to do something to apply Smolder.
If my suggestion is taken - leave AoC as is for the Paladin, but reduce the buff for allies by some factor, say a factor of 5 - it would be far more in line with DC's TI and all other passive buffs.
I cant believe this discussion is still ongoing lol. To be fair i do get the sense you are genuinely concerned about a perceived issue and are trying to help. That said i still disagree with you, and you have to admit that basing assumptions on hearsay and backing it up with easilly disproved facts such as you need to do pvp to get the hp boon isnt helping your cause.
Im going to make some final observations, no facts justs questions to whomever reads this and then leave it alone? The premise of this thread is that aoc turns the dial on damage so much dps classes are sacrificing all other stats, even power to reap maximum benefit from it. If ths is the case: Are dps classes all slotting the chult rings that provide the high hp boost, because i think theyre still taking either the power or crit ones? If theyre lucky enough to find a +5 double offence slot ring are they salvaging it because giving up the hp they gain from a defence slot is too much? Are dps classes all running the op class sigal artifact that gives 1000 power and 4000 hp? Do dps classes all have an energon as an active pet, given theyre so easy to obtain and give a 5% uplift on hp? I honestly dont think theyre doing any of that, which says to me hp and the aoc damage it provides are a nice to have 3rd or 4th choice stat that makes significantly less difference than the power and crit they choose to slot over the above options. Maybe someone who mains a hdps will tell me im wrong
I looked at my last 8 logged TONG runs to try to get some idea of what AoC actually looks like outside of fairy tales.
They ranged in times from 17min - 25min. I was sometimes OP, sometimes DC. All setups included DC/DC/OP + MoF CW or GF or SW + dps (mostly GWF, sometimes HR).
Aura of Courage was 14-20% of a DPS's damage.
On bosses, AoC from the whole party made up 18-23% of the damage.
So in terms of improving the damage output of a decently end-game party, AoC is better than DO's TI but not as good as either empowered BtS or HG, for example. Oooh, it's quite comparable to GF's ITF.
This is just a sample of my runs, not some hard truth. I'm sure you could contrive situations to yield higher numbers. Just wanted to offer up the anecdote to help put things in perspective.
Post edited by dupeks on
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arcanjo86Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,093Arc User
31%(4points) of the player hp as radiant damage(it never crits)
??????????????
max ranked aura of courage , dam you really dont know the max percentage value of the aura of courage class feature, lol. @nitocris83 this is a fail post to nerf things that dont exist. can this be closed?
31%(4points) of the player hp as radiant damage(it never crits)
??????????????
max ranked aura of courage , dam you really dont know the max percentage value of the aura of courage class feature, lol. @nitocris83 this is a fail post to nerf things that dont exist. can this be closed?
I am pretty sure Aura of Courage does not deal 31% of HP as damage at max rank FOR ALLIES.
The premise of this thread is that aoc turns the dial on damage so much dps classes are sacrificing all other stats, even power to reap maximum benefit from it. If ths is the case:
No. Due to AoC, DPS classes sacrifice all other defensive stats for HP. AoC makes HP competitive even for some offensive stats under some conditions, and I showed that.
Comments
But THEN there are TONG runs like this:
I'm sorry, that video is not about having good gear. And it's not even about skill either, because despite your gear, you cannot beat TONG with poor skill. That video is about abusing 'undocumented features'. Like broken Aura of Courage and how it scales with buffs and power. THAT is what needs to be fixed. Not just "make stuff harder".
And that's using base stats which are well below BiS. At BiS the difference narrows even more by larger base power and HP numbers.
And then with the claims that AoC is in some way responsible for speed runs. Sure it contributes... but not dramatically more than other support mechanics. Less, by a good margin.
I think OP has some kind of vendetta against AoC based on poor understanding. Others started out confused but are getting worried because the community sometimes aligns with demagogues preaching this kind of stuff.
Can you honestly argue that a situation in which players are incentivized to forego self-buffs in favor of a Paladin group buff is working as intended? That is absurd.
And AGAIN, the proof is in the pudding - go chat with your BIS DPS players, they are all walking around with tons of HP so as to take advantage of Aura of Courage. They aren't walking around with Azures or Black Ice enchants.
1. An OP has more HP than the DPS classes -> A change for AoC to count OP HP will Increase the overall damage!
2. Per your own numbers the damage increase from the Trispetor is negligible.
So perhaps instead of creating FUD about AoC and try to self fulfill your own prophesy about people investing in that raptor by creating this noise about AoC, how about actually do what you claim you want to do and show that the numbers from the raptor are not gaining much to midlevel player and perhaps even less to BiS so it's not a good investment. You may also want to warn that the mechanics may be changed and there is a risk of loosing the investment over that minuscule gain.
And stop this agenda that AoC responsible for speed runs, and trivialization of content. If you want to prove that, sure, prove that it's the most significant factor in damage, because right now, I don't see myself buying any raptors, if something I need a snail. And more so, then it's an overall issue that has nothing to do with the mod13 and raptors specifically and correcting the AoC to be from OP HP will not solve that, as it will be higher damage.
PS: AoC can't crit.
>
> And AGAIN, the proof is in the pudding - go chat with your BIS DPS players, they are all walking around with tons of HP so as to take advantage of Aura of Courage. They aren't walking around with Azures or Black Ice enchants.
You are confusing 2 different 'slots' here. Mount equip bonus where 16k HP competes with 4K power and Defense slots where radiants compete with azures and black ice. AoC can be the determining factor in the defense slot and be sub optimal in the mount slot. Because someone chooses HP in their defense slots does not mean they will choose HP in their mount slot. The available options are different.
I am not interested in arguing if AoC is good or bad or whatever, just that stacking of HP in defense slots does not mean it is best to stack HP in mount slots. You can also consider the price of Dominance insignia (power) vs Prosperity (HP and gold gain).
You consistently are muddying the arguments, comparing things in a remarkably skewed way. This! Rather than spreading misinformation about AoC, warn people about the risks of min/maxing builds around individual mechanics.
That would be class / build synergy. I don't think it's absurd or inherently bad that I make build/gear decisions based on who I expect to run with. Class synergies can make a game deeper.
Once again the point of that calculation was not to demonstrate the actual damage increase in an actual fight. Obviously, since I neglected the presence of any buffs. It was to demonstrate how powerful AoC is compared to other similar choices. For heaven's sake, adding HP in a defense slot gives a greater DPS boost than adding Power in an offense slot. You cannot convince me that this is "working as intended", that a defensive stat should increase one's damage more than an offensive stat.
I am not trying to sell War Triceratops. I don't want people to buy it if it means AoC is going to be nerfed soon. But I think people will anyway, unfortunately.
Incidentally, it would be nice if the authors of that video came forward and said how much of their damage came from AoC. If they can post an ACT log that says AoC was only a few percent of their damage, then sure I'll shut up about it. But I don't think that is the case.
Your rational seems to be theyre running Tong quicly, they have an OP, hes likely to be running aoc, aha tha must be to blame.
Ill try to put it into perspective. I frequently run Tong in all 16k - 17k groups and yes were all stacking HP (amoungst other things) Aoc damages purely off Hp so there is no way the group in your video have a significant amount more HP than we do, they may even have less.
What the group in your video have is that they are clearly synced to the max on all their powers, where as our runs are just made up if people on the friends list and we make minimal effort to sync outside standard class builds.
With aoc running, dependent on several factors our Tong runs come in between 17 and 22 mins. Without aoc about 2 - 3 mins more.
The group in your video shaved 5 mins off that. Aoc doesnt crit and isnt buffed. Baring in mind we are all near max il and take all the hp available, the aoc damage they are doing cant be noticibly more and is possibly less. So theyre getting 5 mins outside of aoc. This wont be down to one thing, they will be sqeezing every last drop out of every power and buff they have available, but what ever it is they are doing its saving them more than twice the amount of time aoc does.
Of course aoc helps, all powers and buffs do thats the point, but compared to stacking power for example, are really fine tuning group synergys its negligable.
Personally I don't care if it's WAI or not, I'm more annoyed by double intended posts, and the only reason I've posted is because of the contradictions on the posts and the bias.
If you brought up as your opinion that 30% of the damage is too much for single mechanics and it should be nerfed, or more correctly that you want to be based on OP HP because you are mid-geared semi-casual GWF that afraid to invest in HP because you think you will be left behind in terms of damage and on the other hand Cryptic has a very bad record of letting things foster and then nerfing it to the ground, then we could discuss, what it the investment, what is the gain and how it compares to other things.
Instead you bring claims that AoC is the major factor in speed runs and content trivialization with videos that prove nothing.
Lets address the first point first:
I'm sorry, but 30% of something, when it's out of $1 or 1billion $ is still the same 30% but in one case you are poor the other filthy rich, so what made you rich? What made the total large? And what is the 70%? Context.
First of all 30% is the high end, and for specific classes that have multiple procs, for the rest of us mortals it's closer to 20%, but still, why is a class contribution of about 40% buff ( something that is 30% of the damage means we need 42% buff to the rest to get the same result 0.7 * 1.42 = 0.994)
Is something so unique ?
DC HG is 40%,
GF ITF is 30%,
HR Longstrider 40%,
TR buff GWF ego by at least 50%
So?
About the second part of investment, an average player will have 150k HP more or less without investing in it specifically. Guilds have it because it's the best defensive stat (especially in PvP) and gear has it because, otherwise we will be dead.
Bondings do not transfer HP, so that leaves us with 4? defensive slots, which is 16k HP maximum.
That will make it what DPS increase?
Is it comparable to lostmauth 20% DPS increase? No.
Same with the mount, lostmouth was a couple millions for large increase, which turned it into a must have. In this case we have 16k HP which make it much less for much more AD.
So just don't buy it. And if someone want to squeze that additional 3% and can afford Possibly nerfed mechanics, lets warn them. "Consider yourself warned dear reader"
You have offered no evidence that AoC is responsible for speedruns, but you expect others will offer you evidence to the contrary.
When others attempt to give some evidence to show you that you are not understanding the mechanic completely, you dismiss them with hyperbolic language and falsehoods... what are you trying to accomplish here?
DPSer, 30,000 Power, 150,000 HP.
Power damage multiplier is 1.9205. AoC base damage is 1,500.
For a hit with base damage of 1,000, then total damage is (1,000 + 1,500) * 1.9205 = 4,821.07.
Adding a Rank 12 Radiant as Power:
Power damage multiplier is 1.9402. AoC base damage is 1,500.
For a hit with base damage of 1,000, then total damage is (1,000 + 1,500) * 1.9402 = 4,850.38.
Adding a Rank 12 Radiant as HP:
Power damage multiplier is 1.9205. AoC base damage is 1,530.
For a hit with base damage of 1,000, then total damage is (1,000 + 1,530) * 1.9205 = 4,858.89. I don't do speedruns. I can't tell you what the precise damage sources are from. But the DPSers themselves claim that AoC damage is ~30% of their total damage. Incidentally, I have NEVER claimed that AoC is the ONLY REASON for speedruns. Only that it is a substantial factor. And that is backed up by what the DPSers themselves claim.
And what am I trying to accomplish? I am trying to avoid another Lostmauth nerf fiasco. And another Bondings nerf fiasco, as well. The devs at the time were accused of intentionally profiting from broken mechanics by continuing to feed the brokenness with more and more ways to use it, and letting it fester for longer and longer. They are continuing down the same path by allowing the broken AoC to continue while deliberately introducing items that will feed the brokenness. @asterdahl please don't do this. You will have a lot MORE angry players on your hands.
So either they will listen to me, and others, who want broken things like AoC fixed, and retain happy customers. Or they won't, and people will run out and buy more and more HP-granting items, like War Triceratops - which I have shown is *better* than a 4,000 Power mount, under the same broken AoC mechanics - and then when the inevitable fix to AoC finally comes, we will repeat history all over again.
??????????????
Assuming the BEST CASE that AoC makes up roughly 30% of your damage (even though 20% is more typical for a DPS class), we get some different results
If 1,500 represents 30% of your damage, that means that the non-AoC portion is 3500 (1500/(1500+3500)=0.3)
Power damage multiplier is 1.9205. AoC base damage is 1,500.
For a hit with base damage of 3,500, then total damage is (3,500 + 1,500) * 1.9205 = 9602.5
Adding a Rank 12 Radiant as Power:
Power damage multiplier is 1.9402. AoC base damage is 1,500.
For a hit with base damage of 3,500, then total damage is (3,500 + 1,500) * 1.9402 = 9701
Adding a Rank 12 Radiant as HP:
Power damage multiplier is 1.9205. AoC base damage is 1,530.
For a hit with base damage of 3,500, then total damage is (3,500 + 1,530) * 1.9205 = 9660.115
See? If we model AoC as you yourself have suggested it (30% of damage) then Power is better than HP by a good bit (+1% dps vs 0.6% dps... almost twice as good in this hypothetical set-up). That is noble and desirable if it's done based on informed discourse, using facts and logic to make a case for something.
What you are doing is spreading misinformation and spewing hyperbolic claims to try to elicit an emotional response in people. I hope you're unsuccessful, because what you're doing is not good for the game or the community.
So is it really so unreasonable to surmise that in a speed-run such as I posted, that AoC represents a substantial fraction of the damage? I never said AoC was the ONLY reason! And that if AoC was toned down, we would have fewer absurd 5-second boss burns especially for end-game final bosses, and that overall that would be a good thing? CONVERSELY, that by adding more and more HP sources in the game (such as War Tyrannosaurus), that AoC will become a larger and larger part of the problem?
I cannot provide numerical proof in the form of ACT logs. The only people who can are the speed-runners who are understandably unwilling to share their ACT logs in public. I can only make a logical inference that AoC is a not-insignificant part of the problem, based on simple calculations, and based on what the DPSers are themselves saying and doing. You are right. For small hits, HP beats Power. For larger hits, Power beats HP. I would argue that the fact that adding HP to boost damage is even competitive, even in the same ballpark, with adding Power to boost damage, is absurd.
Math tells us 7.14-second boss burn.
Amazingly, that's roughly the same effect as if we say removed any combination of support mechanics increasing damage by roughly 42%.
My point?
AoC is not disproportionately strong. It's not contributing more than other stuff.
It's the combination of all of the buffs multiplying together that results in massive damage. Removing any one buff won't change the result dramatically. If you want to actually cut down on 5-second burns, you'd need to change the way that buffs interact and multiply. But you're not making logical inferences. You're using cherrypicked / misleading examples and dismissing logical explanations. And now you've started referencing mysterious "DPSers" who admit AoC is a problem but won't share their ACT logs to prove it.
Seriously.
It seems like you don't want any fix to anything unless everything is fixed all at once. I say don't make the perfect the enemy of the good. I think we both agree that AoC needs some sort of fix, and with the new 16k HP mount coming, and with the memory of the Lostmauth fiasco and the Bondings fiasco in our minds, let's ask that the devs fix AoC now and work on fixing the other stuff along the way. No, that is not what I said. But I can see how you might infer that, so let me clarify. I do not claim that speed-runners think "AoC is a problem". I have no idea what speed-runners think about AoC. Maybe they think it is fine, maybe they don't. I have never done a speed run. I don't have any speed-runners on my friend's list (that I know of). You probably know more of them than I do. What I mean is, *by their actions* - choosing HP over all other defensive stats, even though those other defensive stats would result in self-buffs - they are signaling that they too view AoC as strong enough so as to forego those self-buffs. They (and you) are the ones who say that AoC makes up a substantial fraction of their damage. By their words and deeds they view AoC as indispensable. And I don't actually *know* that they won't share their ACT logs. I said that it is understandable if they don't, because I'm sure they don't want their competitors finding out their secrets. I would love to see their ACT logs as I'm sure lots of other people would too, but I am not holding my breath.
If speed-runners did not view AoC as a very necessary component of their success, they would not make so many other tradeoffs in order to utilize it. They would not forego so many self-buffs (Assassin's Covenant, Steely Defense, and others) in order to stack HP. That is my point. If you want to know their opinions on AoC, then go ask them.
Second, I never claimed that AoC is "the major factor". I have said all along it is a substantial factor, and I'm right.
However after re-reading my comments I do see how you could have come to the conclusion that I was focusing on AoC above all else. It was not because I thought AoC was the only buff. It was because that particular buff was going to be most directly affected by the upcoming changes. No, AoC is not so unique. There are plenty of strong buffs in the game. But the new 16k HP mount will affect AoC most directly, hence the urgency to fix it sooner rather than later.
If my suggestion is taken - leave AoC as is for the Paladin, but reduce the buff for allies by some factor, say a factor of 5 - it would be far more in line with DC's TI and all other passive buffs.
Im going to make some final observations, no facts justs questions to whomever reads this and then leave it alone?
The premise of this thread is that aoc turns the dial on damage so much dps classes are sacrificing all other stats, even power to reap maximum benefit from it. If ths is the case:
Are dps classes all slotting the chult rings that provide the high hp boost, because i think theyre still taking either the power or crit ones?
If theyre lucky enough to find a +5 double offence slot ring are they salvaging it because giving up the hp they gain from a defence slot is too much?
Are dps classes all running the op class sigal artifact that gives 1000 power and 4000 hp?
Do dps classes all have an energon as an active pet, given theyre so easy to obtain and give a 5% uplift on hp?
I honestly dont think theyre doing any of that, which says to me hp and the aoc damage it provides are a nice to have 3rd or 4th choice stat that makes significantly less difference than the power and crit they choose to slot over the above options. Maybe someone who mains a hdps will tell me im wrong
They ranged in times from 17min - 25min. I was sometimes OP, sometimes DC. All setups included DC/DC/OP + MoF CW or GF or SW + dps (mostly GWF, sometimes HR).
Aura of Courage was 14-20% of a DPS's damage.
On bosses, AoC from the whole party made up 18-23% of the damage.
So in terms of improving the damage output of a decently end-game party, AoC is better than DO's TI but not as good as either empowered BtS or HG, for example. Oooh, it's quite comparable to GF's ITF.
This is just a sample of my runs, not some hard truth. I'm sure you could contrive situations to yield higher numbers. Just wanted to offer up the anecdote to help put things in perspective.