As a relative newbie (came in about a week into 12b) to the game, I quickly learned that RQ dungeons are for AD. If you want to experience the dungeon, queue private (solo or with a buddy of like minds). RQ dungeons, to me, are where all the worst that players have to offer is on display. I've been kicked because the Level 70's decided not to help me with the mobs and got impatient, ignoring the fact that if they were in that much of a hurry, the mobs would have taken them just a few minutes to kill. We all could have gotten through, but ego and impatience won the day. Whatever the devs intended with the RQ system, it has turned out very differently than the intention and not anywhere close to being a good thing.
I have so come to hate RQ dungeons (or more accurately the poor behavior on display) that I have deliberately cut that AD revenue source out; and now all of my alts are Lvl 70 with ~9-10k item level. I can tolerate most RQ skirmishes because there is more of a team spirit at play. People support each other, revive fallen comrades and basically play nicer. Dungeons are the cesspits of Neverwinter. Digging through the muck isn't worth the AD at the end.
As a relative newbie (came in about a week into 12b) to the game, I quickly learned that RQ dungeons are for AD. If you want to ?experience the dungeon, queue private (solo or with a buddy of like minds). RQ dungeons, to me, are where all the worst that players have to offer is on display. I've been kicked because the Level 70's decided not to help me with the mobs and got impatient, ignoring the fact that if they were in that much of a hurry, the mobs would have taken them just a few minutes to kill. We all could have gotten through, but ego and impatience won the day. Whatever the devs intended with the RQ system, it has turned out very differently than the intention and not anywhere close to being a good thing.
I have so come to hate RQ dungeons (or more accurately the poor behavior on display) that I have deliberately cut that AD revenue source out; and now all of my alts are Lvl 70 with ~9-10k item level. I can tolerate most RQ skirmishes because there is more of a team spirit at play. People support each other, revive fallen comrades and basically play nicer. Dungeons are the cesspits of Neverwinter. Digging through the muck isn't worth the AD at the end.
Interesting perspective and I respect your opinion that RQ dungeons are a cesspit and not worth the AD at the end, but I don't happen to share that opinion. Though this brings to mind a question, how are new or low level players to make astral diamonds for their equipment upgrade and progression needs if not by running random dungeons? As you said random skirmishes are another option but then a player will only make a portion of the AD's per day they could be making by only doing half of the content available to them for earning AD's.
I also respect your decision to queue private to "experience" dungeons but then I have to wonder why players shouldn't be able to do both - have the opportunity to explore a dungeon if they desire and get an AD reward at the end?
Just because some players are in a hurry to collect their AD reward and leave - so they can do the same thing again with their other characters?
Your statement also appears to support the premise that the problem isn't with the nature of the random queue dungeons but rather "poor player behavior"... Thankfully that kind of behavior is only displayed from some players and not by any means the majority from my personal observations.
Specifically regarding your example of level 70 players running ahead, ignoring mobs, becoming upset with lower level and slower players and attempting to kick them out just because they are slower, we should keep in mind most higher level players have a choice in how they play. They don't have to run ahead of the rest of the party, they don't have to ignore mobs just because they are able to outrun them - they choose to do so.
On the other hand most new and lower level players often do not have the luxury of that choice, many new and lower level players cannot outrun or more quickly dispose of mobs they encounter and it should go without saying having to fight mobs other players have left behind will take more time slowing them down even more.
A few higher level players try to complain about new and lower level players not being able to keep up or those same new or lower level players confronting mobs instead of ignoring them, when the reality is most new and lower level players don't have the ability or means to move fast enough to outrun mobs or quickly dispose of them, so the few higher level players who run ahead - instead of staying with the slowest player, or who intentionally bypass mobs instead of eliminating them, are themselves creating the some of the unfavorable circumstances they try to complain about.
It has very little to do with the nature of random dungeons and a great deal to do with, as you said, "poor player behavior", "where all the worst {behavior} that players have to offer is on display" as far as I'm concerned.
Specifically regarding your example of level 70 players running ahead, ignoring mobs, becoming upset with lower level and slower players and attempting to kick them out just because they are slower, we should keep in mind most higher level players have a choice in how they play. They don't have to run ahead of the rest of the party, they don't have to ignore mobs just because they are able to outrun them - they choose to do so.
On the other hand most new and lower level players often do not have the luxury of that choice, many new and lower level players cannot outrun or more quickly dispose of mobs they encounter and it should go without saying having to fight mobs other players have left behind will take more time slowing them down even more.
A few higher level players try to complain about new and lower level players not being able to keep up or those same new or lower level players confronting mobs instead of ignoring them, when the reality is most new and lower level players don't have the ability or means to move fast enough to outrun mobs or quickly dispose of them, so the few higher level players who run ahead - instead of staying with the slowest player, or who intentionally bypass mobs instead of eliminating them, are themselves creating the some of the unfavorable circumstances they try to complain about.
It has very little to do with the nature of random dungeons and a great deal to do with, as you said, "poor player behavior", "where all the worst {behavior} that players have to offer is on display" as far as I'm concerned.
OMG, yes! I understand wanting to rush through the daily RD, but what really grinds my gears are those players who rush through kiting everything in an effort to reach the next big boss. And by the time the mobs give up the chase to return back to their starting point, guess who's stumbling by? The slowest and/or lowest member of the group. And guess what happens?
Prior to hitting 70 my hunter was one of the slowest things moving and I would end up swarmed with "trash mobs", but now even if he is slower, he had better range than almost anyone in the group and I use that to the fullest (please don't tell me combat HRs are the only way to play that class, I like taking mobs down from a distance, thanks). But even when I'm the fastest (my SW moves disgustingly fast in short burst), I'll still make sure to keep in a group.
Because of randomsess of PUGs in RD, no one bothered explaining what the chest quest in The Cloak Tower was about, I just stumbled on it. And Caverns of Karrundax just makes me cringe because no matter which 'toon I'm on, I know that by the time I've loaded into the dungeon, there's that one person (usually a TR or GWF) that's already a room ahead and kiting along like they're the only person in the dungeon.
And I'm sorry, but this whole "git guud or go home" attitude I've been seeing on these boards just makes me sick. How are new people supposed to know how to "get better", or "faster", or what works or doesn't, if the ones that know all this are zooming ahead to the endboss? Saying "go join a guild for answers" isn't a solution when you're in the middle of the dungeon, btw. Someone who's just joined the game doesn't know the ins and outs of the game the same way you "experts" know it.
Just glad I'm not the only one who's a bit annoyed at people who exhibit poor playing attitudes.
@nightmayne#6667 every movement buffed player has a choice to either run ahead of the slowest party member or to stick close to other party memers - to eliminate mobs or ignore them - not every player in the content has that option. Kudos for opting to be a "party member" instead of trying to run the content solo.
Speed runners who don't stick with the slowest party members, who don't communicate with other party members and especially those who tend to ignore mobs leaving them for the slower member(s) to contend with, just exacerbates their own so-called 'problems' with slow players so I tend to ignore complaints from those kinds of players.
One drastic change (that probably can be done with little programming effort) is to standardize the movement speed for every character in content like random queue dungeons and skirmishes regardless of enchantment or boon enhancements, fast runners get nurfed and slow movers are enhanced upwardly so all players can move at the same speed. I personally hope it never comes to this, but if some players don't seem to be willing to modify their own behavior the programmers probably have the option to find a way to modify a player's behavior for them and it would I think elevate at least one of the problems some players have been complaining about.
Additionally having some kind of game programmed way to automatically remove any player who is gets disconnected from content (for what ever reason), would eliminate another of the problems people seem to be complaining about, it would be inconvenient for players disconnected legitimately to have to requeue for a different run but it would completely eliminate the problem of some players intentionally disconnecting then trying to reconnect later to get a reward they haven't earned.
Since the content already allows for a kick vote for AFK players (after a cooldown period) that 'problem' seems to be a non-issue as far as I'm concerned.
One drastic change (that probably can be done with little programming effort) is to standardize the movement speed for every character in content like random queue dungeons and skirmishes regardless of enchantment or boon enhancements, fast runners get nurfed and slow movers are enhanced upwardly so all players can move at the same speed. I personally hope it never comes to this, but if some players don't seem to be willing to modify their own behavior the programmers probably have the option to find a way to modify a player's behavior for them and it would I think elevate at least one of the problems some players have been complaining about.
I don't mind the running ahead a little bit... I mean, technically rogues were supposed to scout ahead. But it is the "zoomers" I have issue with. As a test, I rolled up a rogue last night and I noticed that even their "at rest" movements seem like they're always in rush. No wonder they always run through everything if their animation subconsciously sends the message to "keep moving". lol
I'm getting better on my hunter in picking out the "team players" from the "zoomers" - If I'm doing one of the Gauntlgrym skirmish (for example), the "players" tend to divide into 2 groups (usually tank+dps in each) and let me stick back and pull things off me when I hit too hard. "Zoomers" start off running (in the clocktower), but as soon as they see my range/damage, they run through trash mobs so they can get to the big bosses faster. Guess which group I enjoy joining more?
So as I'm getting more comfortable with the game, I'm seeing my 3 mains have 3 styles of play (HR makes pincusion squishies, OP is the wall the squishies have to try and pass and DC tries to keep everyone healthy). Yeah, I'm coming into the game with an actual D&D playing mindset, but that's why I chose to start playing neverwinter. If I didn't want to play D&D, I'd go back to LotR Online or Elder Scrolls Online. Thankfully I did find a guild that (from what I can tell) allows everyone their playstyle, as long as we remember we're all in this together.
Limit speed of characters based on lowest common denominator? As a tank, I get that runners are a pain but come on. Just don't PUG, or pray to RNGesus. Works both ways, want AD, just don't PUG. PUGs in NW are the worst.
Limit speed of characters based on lowest common denominator? As a tank, I get that runners are a pain but come on. Just don't PUG, or pray to RNGesus. Works both ways, want AD, just don't PUG. PUGs in NW are the worst.
The problem I see with that argument is for new players who have no real choice. Only groups you can join for dungeons/skirmishes are PUGs. I was lucky enough that one of my first ones I met someone who introduced me to their guild and I eventually joined. But for that to have happened, guess what? PUG was the only option.
Ok, I was a new player too and I either ran the 3 man dungeons or just skipped them. The main thing you learn in a 3 man dungeon with a runner is that this is the future. At 70 everyone just rushes head first from fight to fight with little regard for anyone else. I know that sounds mean, but as someone who has PUGed EToS and CN more times than I can count this is the rule. As the tank I have to charge blindly to ensure I get and keep aggro so my buffs are better. Those GWF and SW guys are pretty fast too.
I've been around on and off since Beta weekends. I have always loved the game, but admit that the dungeon situation has become toxic in many cases, and painfully frustrating for level appropriate characters.
Look, I understand the reasons that speedy 70s want it done. I really do. On the other hand, I wish that those runners would consider the situation that lower level players are in as well. The Dungeons were designed to challenge THREE level appropriate characters. Now it is boring when the speederruns through and kills everything in sight, but it's a crapfest when those players DON'T kill stuff and run on by, aggroeing the natives. As has been said, that means that the level appropriate players are going to get mobbed by mobs that they are NOT supposed to be able to solo. As I have said to players that left me behind and griped when I got killed by a mob or sub boss, "If you leave a level appropriate player behind to solo the dungeon and you don't kill everything, you might as well be killing that player yourself!"
That said, I also see that the speeders should not have to wait until the lower player has gone sightseeing, and stopped at every chest and resource node in the dungeon.
There IS a bit of a middle ground here that no one has suggested, however: Players who are slower and want to explore the dungeon CAN turn around and go back through the dungeon after the end Boss is dead. (With the exception of the Pirates dungeon). I used to hate going through a dungeon like the Grey Wolf Den and speeding past all the resources so that I would not get kicked. True, some monsters might respawn, and missed monsters might still be there, but It's not going to be the nightmare that being left behind can be. Don't forget that you can always leave the dungeon through the front entrance.
So... suggest to slower players that they can always go back for treasure. It makes the dungeon longer but not for the speeder. I can't tell you how much less frustrating dungeons can be if you can just turn around and go back and explore everything at your own pace is. It also helps you know what and where to hit if you don't want to go back. (I learned how to grab the gems and plants in Cloak Tower and barely slow down groups by doing so, as all but one can be grabbed on the run)
Personally, I would love to see the system changed so that 70s are locked to Epic Dungeons (Like they are with skirmishes), I don't think it would be that bad for lower levels, but I could be wrong, depending on numbers.
No matter what, though. It never hurts anyone to be kind.
What if i want bosses that don't die instantly, what if i want actual content instead of these 'leveling' dungeons, it could be actual content, but they're gonna have to remove levels 70's from the queue. No, they arent needed either, you have no proof that queue times will suck, they could of balanced the leveling dungeons, they didn't. Now any new player sees trash dungeons and no balance pvp, if i saw this stuff when i was new i wouldn't of continued.
greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,152Arc User
Actually, they had plenty of data as to the queue times sucked. That was one of the reasons for the random; to get the queues to pop in a more timely manner.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
What I don't get is in those dungeons mob drops, chests and various other interactive items were put there for a reason. To suggest that stopping to examine drops, open chests or exploring is somehow wrong just doesn't make any sense at all.
Those drops are there for players to examine to see if they want to pick them up, those chests are there for players to open if they want to and sometimes exploring is the only way to find cleverly concealed items that players who aren't there just for the astral diamones might actually need.
I get it... some players are only in dungeons and skirmishes to get astral diamonds - but not everyone goes in with no other purpose than to get the goods at the end, as a matter of fact I would venture to guess the primary reason for the developers creating dungeons and skirmishes wasn't for players to blaze through them for no other purpose than to get to the end. The astral diamonds are a bonus for completing those dungeons and skirmishes, not the primary reason for their existance.
People running dungeons and skirmishes just for the astral diamonds need to get over themselves and allow the people who want to go through dungeons and skirmishes the way the developers intended players to go through dungeons and skirmishes to do so, which includes stopping to examine drops, opening chests and exploring to see what else they can find.
Actually, they had plenty of data as to the queue times sucked. That was one of the reasons for the random; to get the queues to pop in a more timely manner.
But what did they sacrifice to get them to pop faster this way?
There IS a bit of a middle ground here that no one has suggested, however: Players who are slower and want to explore the dungeon CAN turn around and go back through the dungeon after the end Boss is dead.
Was suggested months ago. The special snowflakes took it as an insult.
I know, right! It's almost as if the dingeons weren't designed to be run backwards, or something!?!?
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greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,152Arc User
Some of them you can't. You go into the boss fight and the only way out is the exit.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
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greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,152Arc User
But what did they sacrifice to get them to pop faster this way?
Some beers on the weekends and adding frustration to players, apparently.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
There IS a bit of a middle ground here that no one has suggested, however: Players who are slower and want to explore the dungeon CAN turn around and go back through the dungeon after the end Boss is dead.
Was suggested months ago. The special snowflakes took it as an insult.
Don't some have blocks along the path or at the final boss so you can't go backwards? I am thinking of the drops in Spellplague Cavern or the final boss fight of Cragmire Crypts. Or are they all open once the boss is defeated?
Don't some have blocks along the path or at the final boss so you can't go backwards? I am thinking of the drops in Spellplague Cavern or the final boss fight of Cragmire Crypts. Or are they all open once the boss is defeated?
They were talking about actual new to dungeons players in Cloak Tower because it was in the whine thread about the guy who got kicked from CT for messing about too long. Pretty easy to turn around and go look about in CT.
Sorry, I missed it was only about Clock Tower. I withdraw my question. I have gone back in CT to look around and pick up the extra treasure chests.
But the thought does now make me curious, what other dungeons can I go back in and how far in each.
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greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,152Arc User
I've gone all the way back through Castle Never. That places tries to kick you out.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
this is what happens why you try to force people to play together. Before the recent change and the addition of the random queue system we could just pick any dungeon we wanted to run and run it to earn some AD. You could even use private queue and run the low level and epic dungeons alone to earn AD. This was really good since it stopped me and others from having to help bots earn AD in said low level dungeons or being an inconvenience to low level players since we just want to fly through the dungeons to get our rewards fast so we can go do other stuff.
But the powers that be decided that forcing players to play together and not allowing them to pick which dungeons they want to run to earn AD would be a good thing and everyone would merrily get along.. must be wonderful to live in such a dream world.
Instead the random queue has become a source of dread for most players. Will I get a dungeon I absolutely hate running.. again? Will I get IG and be held hostage while the rest of the team decides to go for gold.. again? Will my requirement meeting but obviously under geared character get FBI with other requirement meeting but obviously under geared players... again? Will I have to waste my time either repeatedly failing a dungeon because the team refuses to give up or waste my time by abandoning it and getting a leaver penalty.. again?
So you see, the random queue system is an inconvenience to us all regardless of level.
According to the devs this is "efficiency" not "inconvenience."
This is the most efficient way to earn AD instead of running ETOS or Shores. They didn't like that the players only ran that skirmish and dungeon for AD. So they decided to put a stop to it. Anything you like doing in this game the devs are most likely to stop it.
Rogue - Setsuna F Seiei (PC) Rogue - Setsuna F Seiei (XB1) Rogue - Serenity (PS4)
All the data you have about queue times were from a time when they werent rewarding, theres 3 things they did, they made the dungeons 3 man, they added level 70's and made them more rewarding. They only needed to make them more rewarding and sure the 3man wouldnt of been my first idea but if they have balanced it correctly then sure. The non-scaled level 70's shouldn't be in these dungeon runs, it ruins any sort of new player experience of dungeons. I got to level 70 on a GF, had 0 tanking experience due to no dungeons, the nthey're like go tank these non scaled normals or get kicked for being a noob tank.
I think the only people who would suggest "players can go back through dungeons after they're finished" are the ones who have never tried to do that.
Aside from the fact already mention that there is some content where going back just isn't possible, most of the drops disappear quickly and are no longer available after the boss fight is over so ignoring them and trying to go back for them is also impossible. Then there are some items that just aren't there after the boss fight, like the crystals and other pickups in the Cloak Tower for the two non AD chests at the end. People can go back through the Cloak Tower after the boss fight but the items needed to make those chests appear just aren't there anymore.
Having random queues for the dungeons to pop faster was just one of the reasons for the change, another reason stated in the post about random dungeon changes was to attempt to get more experienced higher level players to share their experience and tactics with newer or less experienced players... which it seems some higher level players think is beneath them as some complain they object to "having to carry" new or lower level players... But me, I tend to think there were some players repeatedly grinding specific dungeons farming AD's and that tended to make those queues much longer, a problem that was solved by the way by the random queues much to the disappointment and displeasure of those who used to repeatedly farm private queues for AD's.
As usual it seems everyone is having to pay for the inconsiderate motivations of some few, you want someone to blame - it's not the developers or lower level players who are to blame in my opinion.
I still think some kind of tiered system where if a player has a high character level and item score, they are restricted from entering some lower level content - and players with a lower character level and item score, would be restricted from entering some higher level content, much like the system they already have in place for some skirmishes and epics.
I still think some kind of tiered system where if a player has a high character level and item score, they are restricted from entering some lower level content - and players with a lower character level and item score, would be restricted from entering some higher level content, much like the system they already have in place for some skirmishes and epics.
Or maybe we can admit the RQ system is not working as ti is designed now and allow folks beyond a perticular level to private queue to get their RAD runs.
In my opinion, no matter how much we want to point the finger at the high level or low level characters, it can't be ignored the negative impact the RQ has had on the game for many folks of all levels.
Oh I admit the random queue system isn't working the way it was intended to, but through no fault of the random queue IMO...
The random queue doesn't make some few more experienced and higher level players run off and leave other party members to fend for themselves, the random queue doesn't encourage some players to queue and immediately, intentionally disconnect to try to reconnect later to get their astral diamonds nor does the random queue necessitate some players to log in with sub par characters (even for a leveling dungeon) and just hang out until they can claim their AD's... that's all player behavior - not the nature or fault of the random dungeons.
The majority of players are doing what they're supposed to do with just a few trouble makers, probably the same trouble makers that used to repeatedly grind private dungeons to mine astral diamonds which may be why the developers thought the system needed to be changed in the first place. I seriously doubt because some people are abusing random queues the Cryptic people would go back to the previous method that people were abusing.
And it's just a feeling but I think if some people continue to abuse and complain about what they have now the developers will try another 'experiment' to make those players who's primary purpose in the game seems to be grinding for AD's even more difficult - like they did when they eliminated the private queue AD runs for the random queue AD runs and again everyone is going to be made to suffer because of the lack of consideration of some few.
Someone just suggested to me today to remove all (or most) AD rewards from dungeons and skirmishes and instead give players an AD reward for actually playing the game content.
Every quest at every level gives a reward upon completion whether that be experience, gold, a piece of gear or whatever and the more difficult the quest the greater the reward. Just add a few astral diamonds onto those already existing rewards and more people would have to actually play the game instead of trying to figure out a way to just run or in some cases, scam dungeons and skirmishes for quick and easy AD's, with "quick and easy" being the key words here. I don't think there would be any argument that it is much easier and quicker to run a skirmish or a dungeon than it is to have to go to an area and actually complete the quests assigned to those areas.
I'm still in favor of the tiered system for dungeons and skirmishes depending on a player's character level and item level as I believe it would be the most fair and provide a less annoying system for players of all levels, but with enough scamming and complaining who knows what will be next in the developer's efforts to slow down some players attempt to exploit the system... one thing I'm pretty sure of though is they probably won't go back to previous method that was already being exploited, just because the current system is being exploited.
Oh I admit the random queue system isn't working the way it was intended to, but through no fault of the random queue IMO...
The random queue doesn't make some few more experienced and higher level players run off and leave other party members to fend for themselves, the random queue doesn't encourage some players to queue and immediately, intentionally disconnect to try to reconnect later to get their astral diamonds nor does the random queue necessitate some players to log in with sub par characters (even for a leveling dungeon) and just hang out until they can claim their AD's... that's all player behavior - not the nature or fault of the random dungeons.
That is a problem with what the RQ forces. Would you mix Pro (name your sport) with recreational folks and expect it to be fun or smooth for anyone?
The bottom line is the RQ forces you to PUG and throws together players of significantly different skills/equipment. Why should players change their behavior just because the developers decided to force them into specific content that they don't want to do anyway.
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greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,152Arc User
Right. I mean why would players cooperate when it is much easier to be an HAMSTER?
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
It's called consideration for other than one's self. I feel I'm always repeating myself to saying the random queue is a "party" function not designed to be solo content and even though some members of that party are capable of soloing the content, that doesn't mean they have to solo the content.
As a matter of fact not every party is going to have those who would object to a more experienced, better equipped player forging ahead but some kind of head's up or at least warning would be nice. As it often is you have three players in a dungeon each sometimes capable of traversing the content at different speeds, one forging ahead, one just trying to keep up and one lagging behind because that is the best speed they can manage given their character build.
There will be some who appear to be lower level players just mining for AD but the way legit new and low level characters become faster and more powerful in their character build is by doing content like dungeons and skirmishes, getting better gear, needed supplies, refining gems and the AD payout at the end. Why should any faster and more powerful character object to affording other players what they already have?
Every fast moving character has the option to remain close to other party members, not every slow moving character has the option to speed up and remain with the fast movers. Usually and fortunately most players consider it common sense and common courtesy for their faster and stronger characters to help out less powerful party members to see them through a dungeon, or even periodically wait or backtrack if another party falls behind – but then there are those who don’t apparently thinking something like that is beneath them.
Each player strung out in a dungeon, each doing their own thing and with no care or consideration for other members – that’s not a D&D “party”, but then maybe I’m too old school on the usual mechanics of the D&D processes but then Neverwinter is supposed to be D&D style game.
That is a problem with what the RQ forces. Would you mix Pro (name your sport) with recreational folks and expect it to be fun or smooth for anyone?
The bottom line is the RQ forces you to PUG and throws together players of significantly different skills/equipment. Why should players change their behavior just because the developers decided to force them into specific content that they don't want to do anyway.
No I wouldn't mix pros and armatures together in a contest and expect the content to run smoothly, but I would - and even in sports they do - have pros train with armatures to help them become stronger and faster and more capable.
Dungeons and skirmishes aren’t real battles like the River District or Chult they are in essence training sessions to teach players how to become better at what they do and hopefully learn how to work together as a team instead of a solo entity. At least that’s the way I see it… the unfortunate part is that so many people seem to think Neverwinter is all about the random queue being THE game as the only thing they appear to care about is the accumulation of more astral diamonds seems unfortunate to me.
Answers
I have so come to hate RQ dungeons (or more accurately the poor behavior on display) that I have deliberately cut that AD revenue source out; and now all of my alts are Lvl 70 with ~9-10k item level. I can tolerate most RQ skirmishes because there is more of a team spirit at play. People support each other, revive fallen comrades and basically play nicer. Dungeons are the cesspits of Neverwinter. Digging through the muck isn't worth the AD at the end.
I also respect your decision to queue private to "experience" dungeons but then I have to wonder why players shouldn't be able to do both - have the opportunity to explore a dungeon if they desire and get an AD reward at the end?
Just because some players are in a hurry to collect their AD reward and leave - so they can do the same thing again with their other characters?
Your statement also appears to support the premise that the problem isn't with the nature of the random queue dungeons but rather "poor player behavior"... Thankfully that kind of behavior is only displayed from some players and not by any means the majority from my personal observations.
Specifically regarding your example of level 70 players running ahead, ignoring mobs, becoming upset with lower level and slower players and attempting to kick them out just because they are slower, we should keep in mind most higher level players have a choice in how they play. They don't have to run ahead of the rest of the party, they don't have to ignore mobs just because they are able to outrun them - they choose to do so.
On the other hand most new and lower level players often do not have the luxury of that choice, many new and lower level players cannot outrun or more quickly dispose of mobs they encounter and it should go without saying having to fight mobs other players have left behind will take more time slowing them down even more.
A few higher level players try to complain about new and lower level players not being able to keep up or those same new or lower level players confronting mobs instead of ignoring them, when the reality is most new and lower level players don't have the ability or means to move fast enough to outrun mobs or quickly dispose of them, so the few higher level players who run ahead - instead of staying with the slowest player, or who intentionally bypass mobs instead of eliminating them, are themselves creating the some of the unfavorable circumstances they try to complain about.
It has very little to do with the nature of random dungeons and a great deal to do with, as you said, "poor player behavior", "where all the worst {behavior} that players have to offer is on display" as far as I'm concerned.
Prior to hitting 70 my hunter was one of the slowest things moving and I would end up swarmed with "trash mobs", but now even if he is slower, he had better range than almost anyone in the group and I use that to the fullest (please don't tell me combat HRs are the only way to play that class, I like taking mobs down from a distance, thanks). But even when I'm the fastest (my SW moves disgustingly fast in short burst), I'll still make sure to keep in a group.
Because of randomsess of PUGs in RD, no one bothered explaining what the chest quest in The Cloak Tower was about, I just stumbled on it. And Caverns of Karrundax just makes me cringe because no matter which 'toon I'm on, I know that by the time I've loaded into the dungeon, there's that one person (usually a TR or GWF) that's already a room ahead and kiting along like they're the only person in the dungeon.
And I'm sorry, but this whole "git guud or go home" attitude I've been seeing on these boards just makes me sick. How are new people supposed to know how to "get better", or "faster", or what works or doesn't, if the ones that know all this are zooming ahead to the endboss? Saying "go join a guild for answers" isn't a solution when you're in the middle of the dungeon, btw. Someone who's just joined the game doesn't know the ins and outs of the game the same way you "experts" know it.
Just glad I'm not the only one who's a bit annoyed at people who exhibit poor playing attitudes.
Speed runners who don't stick with the slowest party members, who don't communicate with other party members and especially those who tend to ignore mobs leaving them for the slower member(s) to contend with, just exacerbates their own so-called 'problems' with slow players so I tend to ignore complaints from those kinds of players.
One drastic change (that probably can be done with little programming effort) is to standardize the movement speed for every character in content like random queue dungeons and skirmishes regardless of enchantment or boon enhancements, fast runners get nurfed and slow movers are enhanced upwardly so all players can move at the same speed. I personally hope it never comes to this, but if some players don't seem to be willing to modify their own behavior the programmers probably have the option to find a way to modify a player's behavior for them and it would I think elevate at least one of the problems some players have been complaining about.
Additionally having some kind of game programmed way to automatically remove any player who is gets disconnected from content (for what ever reason), would eliminate another of the problems people seem to be complaining about, it would be inconvenient for players disconnected legitimately to have to requeue for a different run but it would completely eliminate the problem of some players intentionally disconnecting then trying to reconnect later to get a reward they haven't earned.
Since the content already allows for a kick vote for AFK players (after a cooldown period) that 'problem' seems to be a non-issue as far as I'm concerned.
I'm getting better on my hunter in picking out the "team players" from the "zoomers" - If I'm doing one of the Gauntlgrym skirmish (for example), the "players" tend to divide into 2 groups (usually tank+dps in each) and let me stick back and pull things off me when I hit too hard. "Zoomers" start off running (in the clocktower), but as soon as they see my range/damage, they run through trash mobs so they can get to the big bosses faster. Guess which group I enjoy joining more?
So as I'm getting more comfortable with the game, I'm seeing my 3 mains have 3 styles of play (HR makes pincusion squishies, OP is the wall the squishies have to try and pass and DC tries to keep everyone healthy). Yeah, I'm coming into the game with an actual D&D playing mindset, but that's why I chose to start playing neverwinter. If I didn't want to play D&D, I'd go back to LotR Online or Elder Scrolls Online. Thankfully I did find a guild that (from what I can tell) allows everyone their playstyle, as long as we remember we're all in this together.
Look, I understand the reasons that speedy 70s want it done. I really do. On the other hand, I wish that those runners would consider the situation that lower level players are in as well. The Dungeons were designed to challenge THREE level appropriate characters. Now it is boring when the speederruns through and kills everything in sight, but it's a crapfest when those players DON'T kill stuff and run on by, aggroeing the natives. As has been said, that means that the level appropriate players are going to get mobbed by mobs that they are NOT supposed to be able to solo. As I have said to players that left me behind and griped when I got killed by a mob or sub boss, "If you leave a level appropriate player behind to solo the dungeon and you don't kill everything, you might as well be killing that player yourself!"
That said, I also see that the speeders should not have to wait until the lower player has gone sightseeing, and stopped at every chest and resource node in the dungeon.
There IS a bit of a middle ground here that no one has suggested, however: Players who are slower and want to explore the dungeon CAN turn around and go back through the dungeon after the end Boss is dead. (With the exception of the Pirates dungeon). I used to hate going through a dungeon like the Grey Wolf Den and speeding past all the resources so that I would not get kicked. True, some monsters might respawn, and missed monsters might still be there, but It's not going to be the nightmare that being left behind can be. Don't forget that you can always leave the dungeon through the front entrance.
So... suggest to slower players that they can always go back for treasure. It makes the dungeon longer but not for the speeder. I can't tell you how much less frustrating dungeons can be if you can just turn around and go back and explore everything at your own pace is. It also helps you know what and where to hit if you don't want to go back. (I learned how to grab the gems and plants in Cloak Tower and barely slow down groups by doing so, as all but one can be grabbed on the run)
Personally, I would love to see the system changed so that 70s are locked to Epic Dungeons (Like they are with skirmishes), I don't think it would be that bad for lower levels, but I could be wrong, depending on numbers.
No matter what, though. It never hurts anyone to be kind.
Now any new player sees trash dungeons and no balance pvp, if i saw this stuff when i was new i wouldn't of continued.
Those drops are there for players to examine to see if they want to pick them up, those chests are there for players to open if they want to and sometimes exploring is the only way to find cleverly concealed items that players who aren't there just for the astral diamones might actually need.
I get it... some players are only in dungeons and skirmishes to get astral diamonds - but not everyone goes in with no other purpose than to get the goods at the end, as a matter of fact I would venture to guess the primary reason for the developers creating dungeons and skirmishes wasn't for players to blaze through them for no other purpose than to get to the end. The astral diamonds are a bonus for completing those dungeons and skirmishes, not the primary reason for their existance.
People running dungeons and skirmishes just for the astral diamonds need to get over themselves and allow the people who want to go through dungeons and skirmishes the way the developers intended players to go through dungeons and skirmishes to do so, which includes stopping to examine drops, opening chests and exploring to see what else they can find.
Some beers on the weekends and adding frustration to players, apparently.
But the thought does now make me curious, what other dungeons can I go back in and how far in each.
This is the most efficient way to earn AD instead of running ETOS or Shores. They didn't like that the players only ran that skirmish and dungeon for AD. So they decided to put a stop to it. Anything you like doing in this game the devs are most likely to stop it.
Rogue - Setsuna F Seiei (XB1)
Rogue - Serenity (PS4)
Aside from the fact already mention that there is some content where going back just isn't possible, most of the drops disappear quickly and are no longer available after the boss fight is over so ignoring them and trying to go back for them is also impossible. Then there are some items that just aren't there after the boss fight, like the crystals and other pickups in the Cloak Tower for the two non AD chests at the end. People can go back through the Cloak Tower after the boss fight but the items needed to make those chests appear just aren't there anymore.
Having random queues for the dungeons to pop faster was just one of the reasons for the change, another reason stated in the post about random dungeon changes was to attempt to get more experienced higher level players to share their experience and tactics with newer or less experienced players... which it seems some higher level players think is beneath them as some complain they object to "having to carry" new or lower level players... But me, I tend to think there were some players repeatedly grinding specific dungeons farming AD's and that tended to make those queues much longer, a problem that was solved by the way by the random queues much to the disappointment and displeasure of those who used to repeatedly farm private queues for AD's.
As usual it seems everyone is having to pay for the inconsiderate motivations of some few, you want someone to blame - it's not the developers or lower level players who are to blame in my opinion.
I still think some kind of tiered system where if a player has a high character level and item score, they are restricted from entering some lower level content - and players with a lower character level and item score, would be restricted from entering some higher level content, much like the system they already have in place for some skirmishes and epics.
In my opinion, no matter how much we want to point the finger at the high level or low level characters, it can't be ignored the negative impact the RQ has had on the game for many folks of all levels.
The random queue doesn't make some few more experienced and higher level players run off and leave other party members to fend for themselves, the random queue doesn't encourage some players to queue and immediately, intentionally disconnect to try to reconnect later to get their astral diamonds nor does the random queue necessitate some players to log in with sub par characters (even for a leveling dungeon) and just hang out until they can claim their AD's... that's all player behavior - not the nature or fault of the random dungeons.
The majority of players are doing what they're supposed to do with just a few trouble makers, probably the same trouble makers that used to repeatedly grind private dungeons to mine astral diamonds which may be why the developers thought the system needed to be changed in the first place. I seriously doubt because some people are abusing random queues the Cryptic people would go back to the previous method that people were abusing.
The AD dungeon runs were changed from they way they were to the way they are presently for a reason - yes - to make queue times "pop faster" because you had fewer players repeatedly grinding the same content over and over just to farm AD's.
And it's just a feeling but I think if some people continue to abuse and complain about what they have now the developers will try another 'experiment' to make those players who's primary purpose in the game seems to be grinding for AD's even more difficult - like they did when they eliminated the private queue AD runs for the random queue AD runs and again everyone is going to be made to suffer because of the lack of consideration of some few.
Someone just suggested to me today to remove all (or most) AD rewards from dungeons and skirmishes and instead give players an AD reward for actually playing the game content.
Every quest at every level gives a reward upon completion whether that be experience, gold, a piece of gear or whatever and the more difficult the quest the greater the reward. Just add a few astral diamonds onto those already existing rewards and more people would have to actually play the game instead of trying to figure out a way to just run or in some cases, scam dungeons and skirmishes for quick and easy AD's, with "quick and easy" being the key words here. I don't think there would be any argument that it is much easier and quicker to run a skirmish or a dungeon than it is to have to go to an area and actually complete the quests assigned to those areas.
I'm still in favor of the tiered system for dungeons and skirmishes depending on a player's character level and item level as I believe it would be the most fair and provide a less annoying system for players of all levels, but with enough scamming and complaining who knows what will be next in the developer's efforts to slow down some players attempt to exploit the system... one thing I'm pretty sure of though is they probably won't go back to previous method that was already being exploited, just because the current system is being exploited.
But that's just my opinion.
The bottom line is the RQ forces you to PUG and throws together players of significantly different skills/equipment. Why should players change their behavior just because the developers decided to force them into specific content that they don't want to do anyway.
As a matter of fact not every party is going to have those who would object to a more experienced, better equipped player forging ahead but some kind of head's up or at least warning would be nice. As it often is you have three players in a dungeon each sometimes capable of traversing the content at different speeds, one forging ahead, one just trying to keep up and one lagging behind because that is the best speed they can manage given their character build.
There will be some who appear to be lower level players just mining for AD but the way legit new and low level characters become faster and more powerful in their character build is by doing content like dungeons and skirmishes, getting better gear, needed supplies, refining gems and the AD payout at the end. Why should any faster and more powerful character object to affording other players what they already have?
Every fast moving character has the option to remain close to other party members, not every slow moving character has the option to speed up and remain with the fast movers. Usually and fortunately most players consider it common sense and common courtesy for their faster and stronger characters to help out less powerful party members to see them through a dungeon, or even periodically wait or backtrack if another party falls behind – but then there are those who don’t apparently thinking something like that is beneath them.
Each player strung out in a dungeon, each doing their own thing and with no care or consideration for other members – that’s not a D&D “party”, but then maybe I’m too old school on the usual mechanics of the D&D processes but then Neverwinter is supposed to be D&D style game. No I wouldn't mix pros and armatures together in a contest and expect the content to run smoothly, but I would - and even in sports they do - have pros train with armatures to help them become stronger and faster and more capable.
Dungeons and skirmishes aren’t real battles like the River District or Chult they are in essence training sessions to teach players how to become better at what they do and hopefully learn how to work together as a team instead of a solo entity. At least that’s the way I see it… the unfortunate part is that so many people seem to think Neverwinter is all about the random queue being THE game as the only thing they appear to care about is the accumulation of more astral diamonds seems unfortunate to me.