Truth be told It does not matter what they call the leveling dungeons, they were made to level lower level folks as they pass through the content. What they have done now is turn the leveling dungeons into the *only* AD farm open to many folks. No longer can folks earn AD through the ways that were in the game before. Invocations, Professions, etc. And because the leveling dungeons are the fastest way to farm AD for those 70+ who can and should be running the epic dungeons, it makes the situation even worse. We can argue about labels and about who is hurt by the RQ system all day every day but it will not change the basic facts. The way it is now does not work for most folks, high or low level.
Truth be told It does not matter what they call the leveling dungeons, they were made to level lower level folks as they pass through the content. What they have done now is turn the leveling dungeons into the *only* AD farm open to many folks. No longer can folks earn AD through the ways that were in the game before. Invocations, Professions, etc. And because the leveling dungeons are the fastest way to farm AD for those 70+ who can and should be running the epic dungeons, it makes the situation even worse. We can argue about labels and about who is hurt by the RQ system all day every day but it will not change the basic facts. The way it is now does not work for most folks, high or low level.
I think you just clearly hit the nail on the head…
And because the leveling dungeons are the fastest way to farm AD for those 70+ who can and should be running the epic dungeons, it makes the situation even worse .
Many higher level and 70 level players can – or as you said “should” - access Epic dungeons and even if they cannot presently because of some required lockout, they probably would be able to complete the requirements necessary to be able to run Epic dungeons… but of course random epic level dungeons usually require more time and effort from a level 70 player than being able to easily and quickly run through content like the Cloak Tower.
The problem isn’t the random queue as far as I’m concerned it is and always has been player behavior during the random dungeon queue…
If you look closely at most of the complaints they are primarily about player behavior and how one player or another objects to how other randomly queued players in the party play.
For higher level players it often boils down to new and low level players keeping them from obtaining their astral diamonds from leveling dungeons as quickly and easily as they want to…
For lower level players it is often about upper level players trying to play as a solo entity instead of a party.
Sorry to wind up at opposite ends of an issue again but I happen to think the random queue system does work, I and a few people I know personally (not just in the game, but I’ve heard this from people I know only from the game as well) who have been randomly partied with more experienced players say we have learned many things we probably wouldn’t have learned running solo or only with the groups we usually queue with… We’ve also had the opportunity to randomly run with some lower level players who seemed to be genuinely interested and grateful for a little patience and suggestions from more experienced players.
Recently I ran with a level 26 character who had no idea they could pick up items in the Cloak Tower to open other chests following the final battle... though they said they’d run the Tower many times previously, it usually consisted of little more than trying to catch up with a party member or members running ahead and waiting for them at the final boss gate.
> @greywynd said: > Don’t you HAVE to complete Cloak Tower to get to another level of the game? Same holds true for most of those T1 dungeons, hence they are called leveling dungeons. > > No. None of the dungeons are mandatory for progress.
Really? I seem to remember having to go to the Cloak Tower as part of the early quest chain. Sooo long ago though...
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,458Arc User
> Don’t you HAVE to complete Cloak Tower to get to another level of the game? Same holds true for most of those T1 dungeons, hence they are called leveling dungeons.
>
> No. None of the dungeons are mandatory for progress.
Really? I seem to remember having to go to the Cloak Tower as part of the early quest chain. Sooo long ago though...
It is not a must do quest. None of the level dungeon is.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
Queues pop orders of magnitude faster, and earning AD has become significantly faster and doable on a larger range of toons. I'm quite sure there is a silent, contented majority of players using the RQ system daily, ignoring the vocal minority here.
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greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,158Arc User
It is not a must do quest. None of the level dungeon is.
Not sure why wintersmoke is disagreeing with this. The leveling dungeons tasks come at the end of the adventure zones' chains. As such the zone is completed without any need to do the dungeon except to 1) clear the dungeon for the various achievements (which is not mandatory) and 2) possibly for the 3rd Eye campaign currency/rewards (also not mandatory).
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
> Don’t you HAVE to complete Cloak Tower to get to another level of the game? Same holds true for most of those T1 dungeons, hence they are called leveling dungeons.
>
> No. None of the dungeons are mandatory for progress.
Really? I seem to remember having to go to the Cloak Tower as part of the early quest chain. Sooo long ago though...
It is not a must do quest. None of the level dungeon is.
True statement, there are no "must do" quests in the game...
For that matter a player doesn't need astral diamonds to play the game either - also a true statement.
But if a player wants to be able to obtain better gear, mounts or whatever then astral diamonds become an important part of their gaming experience... but still it is because they choose to do - not something they "must do".
However if a player chooses to complete the game content as it was designed and reap the rewards and boons for completing tasks specified for those areas, they "must do" specific tasks, including doing the Cloak Tower to complete the game specified tasks for the Tower District.
What it appears we've been talking about here is different gaming styles and preferences, and what seems to be some players acceptance or lack of tolerance for the preferences and play styles of other players.
But the title of the thread was to address "freeloaders" and all I've come away with regarding that topic so far is a lot of people seem to have a different opinion (sometimes based on their own personal expectations of others) of what constitutes a freeloader. The majority of us don't have any way to determine if another player is actually a freeloader, a victim of circumstances beyond their control, or just chooses to play in a manner that doesn't meet their expectations of others.
My opinion: Just play the game – and allow others to do the same and don't even consider kicking anyone out simply because you disapprove of their choice of gear, speed or play style, but feel free to remove a player if it appears they are disconnected and have been for the time period that allows the kick option.
I was thinking more on the mistaken name "levelling dungeons" and it would probably be better if they were actually dungeons used to level so remove all rewards except experience points for anyone doing a "levelling dungeon"
This will fix the content previously known as "levelling dungeons" into their correct role and we can have random queue's for people who want AD.
This reminds me of the suggestion I saw made where they keep those how enter the dungeon for the first time with folks of the same level and the rest are open to anyone. I thried to find the suggestion post but failed.
I agree AD's are important to just about every Neverwinter player but I don't think anyone can deny there are also abuses with the current configuration (whether or not anyone wants to try to 'blame' the random dungeon configuration or individual player behavior) and if people can't moderate their own behavior, how they treat other players, perhaps the developers should consider doing something to moderate random dungeon behavior for them - instead of any consideration of just scrapping the random dungeon concept.
As a matter of fact I firmly believe (or at least sincerely hope) if people are persistently perceived as abusing the content, such as kicking out or harassing low level players in low level dungeons for "not being fast enough", eventually the developers will make changes to player abilities to force moderation of player behavior - just like they installed the vote to kick option and the timer because the kick feature was being abused.
As an alternative suggestion I would propose the difficulty for dungeons rewarding astral diamonds be scaled to a player's character level and item level for admittance... too high a level and those players are excluded from entering lower level dungeons - too low a level and those players are excluded from entering higher level dungeons.
I've specifically mentioned "item level" because even in the current content I've personally seen some low level characters with very high level enchantments, such as a level 20-something Trickster Rogue character with level 11 Dark enchantments in their utility slots and level 8+ enchantments in their other gear slots.
As to the suggestion of astral diamonds be removed from "leveling dungeons", to me that would seem to suggest a person thinks players actually leveling in leveling dungeons, don't need or deserve astral diamonds, an opinion I absolutely disagree with.
For all saying this is a result of the random que update, well that is just untrue altogether. It may have become more frequent now, but it was still happening before random ques. I remember leveling up alts and every time it came to doing a dungeon I would cringe at the sight of a 70 with an overpowered weapon enchant blasting off from the campfire, leaving everyone else behind. So you're pretty much left doing that walkthrough tour of the dungeon that is completely boring as hell, until you reach the little pink circle that he's waiting at impatiently, probably unaware that you equally despise him being there. Its been happening even when the reward was only around 5k ad to complete any low level dungeon. Farming reasons I'm sure, but for those looking forward to testing out their skills against non-trash mobs, its a bummer. Especially while leveling a tank or other support class, periodically I like to see if my build choices are correct or effective when needed.
Now, there was an option before the update to private que just yourself into the dungeon with nobody else for the same ad rewards, not sure if that's a possibility still.
The other side of it is, how many people are leveling new or alt characters? Its not very challenging to get to level 60 for sure, 60-70 takes a bit longer, but could you imagine how long the leveling players would be sitting in que for some barely revisited dungeon whether an overpowered 70 joined or didnt? Might be hours. So, I just roll with it. Even though I'm bummed out about not using or testing out my skills in a dungeon, sure beats waiting there for hours in que to complete a campaign.
Now, there was an option before the update to private que just yourself into the dungeon with nobody else for the same ad rewards, not sure if that's a possibility still.
Yes it was an option before, no it's not anymore. Forced into random queue.
I'm guessing that Cryptic want L70's in the levelling dungeons - probably due to a low amount of players below L70.
As 70's and pre-70's have different reasons for being in the dungeon it inevitably causes friction - and locking them in with the threat of a 30 min ban just puts petrol on the fire.
All of this was explained to the devs before they brought it in - it turned out exactly as predicted, and they have been silent on the subject ever since.
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I believe there was another aspect for developing the randon queues other than more participation in different levels of dungeons... that being higher level players being able pass on the benefit of their advice and experience (beyond "just run faster") to lower level players.
This does happen on occasion, but probably not to the extent hoped for I'm guessing since quite a few higher level players only seem to be interested in collecting their astral diamonds as quickly and easily as possible and tend to resent any player or any thing that disrupts that.
I believe that's why so many are calling for the return to the old ways where players can mine their astral diamonds for themselves, without being 'inconvenienced' by other players.
It isn't about the game - it's about some player's ability (or lack of) to accumulate personal wealth, without having to spend any actual money... Something I don't think too many developers are too concerned about.
But that's just my opinion.
Personally I'd hate to see it but if AD runs were limited to one character, per day that would solve a lot of problems - except for the people only playing to accumulate as many AD's as possible - and it would separate the people who are actually trying to play the game from those just in it for the perceived profit.
If a player has an account with 2 characters they can do two astral diamond runs - if they have 50 characters in their account they can do AD runs 50 times for the payout... but regardless each character in a player's account is only able to collect astral diamonds from AD runs once per day.
... but regardless each character in a player's account is only able to collect astral diamonds from AD runs once per day.
Just to clerify, you do get RAD from the 2nd RQ, just a significantly lower amount because you do not get the bonus RAD. You will get like 10% of the first run. Thus the RAD to time spent is no longer worth it for most folks. But it is there.
I believe there was another aspect for developing the randon queues other than more participation in different levels of dungeons... that being higher level players being able pass on the benefit of their advice and experience (beyond "just run faster") to lower level players.
This does happen on occasion, but probably not to the extent hoped for I'm guessing since quite a few higher level players only seem to be interested in collecting their astral diamonds as quickly and easily as possible and tend to resent any player or any thing that disrupts that.
I believe that's why so many are calling for the return to the old ways where players can mine their astral diamonds for themselves, without being 'inconvenienced' by other players.
It isn't about the game - it's about some player's ability (or lack of) to accumulate personal wealth, without having to spend any actual money... Something I don't think too many developers are too concerned about.
But that's just my opinion.
Personally I'd hate to see it but if AD runs were limited to one character, per day that would solve a lot of problems - except for the people only playing to accumulate as many AD's as possible - and it would separate the people who are actually trying to play the game from those just in it for the perceived profit.
If a player has an account with 2 characters they can do two astral diamond runs - if they have 50 characters in their account they can do AD runs 50 times for the payout... but regardless each character in a player's account is only able to collect astral diamonds from AD runs once per day.
Advice and support should come from guild members. Relying on random people in short dungeons to take time out and help someone they'll probably never see again is somewhat naive and absolutely ignores typical human behaviour.
The occasional good Samaritan aside, people tend to invest time in those that are linked to them - such as friends or guild members. If that was the ultimate goal for the developers, then they needed to start with a basic understanding of which incentives work, not just dangle a little carrot and back it up with a large stick.
Forcing players to behave in ways that they don't want by threatening them with various punishments will quite simply push them away from the game.
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I believe there was another aspect for developing the randon queues other than more participation in different levels of dungeons... that being higher level players being able pass on the benefit of their advice and experience (beyond "just run faster") to lower level players.
This does happen on occasion, but probably not to the extent hoped for I'm guessing since quite a few higher level players only seem to be interested in collecting their astral diamonds as quickly and easily as possible and tend to resent any player or any thing that disrupts that.
I believe that's why so many are calling for the return to the old ways where players can mine their astral diamonds for themselves, without being 'inconvenienced' by other players.
It isn't about the game - it's about some player's ability (or lack of) to accumulate personal wealth, without having to spend any actual money... Something I don't think too many developers are too concerned about.
But that's just my opinion.
Personally I'd hate to see it but if AD runs were limited to one character, per day that would solve a lot of problems - except for the people only playing to accumulate as many AD's as possible - and it would separate the people who are actually trying to play the game from those just in it for the perceived profit.
If a player has an account with 2 characters they can do two astral diamond runs - if they have 50 characters in their account they can do AD runs 50 times for the payout... but regardless each character in a player's account is only able to collect astral diamonds from AD runs once per day.
Advice and support should come from guild members. Relying on random people in short dungeons to take time out and help someone they'll probably never see again is somewhat naive and absolutely ignores typical human behaviour.
The occasional good Samaritan aside, people tend to invest time in those that are linked to them - such as friends or guild members. If that was the ultimate goal for the developers, then they needed to start with a basic understanding of which incentives work, not just dangle a little carrot and back it up with a large stick.
Forcing players to behave in ways that they don't want by threatening them with various punishments will quite simply push them away from the game.
Not everyone has the desire to join a guild and many guilds kick out players they don't think are contributing sufficiently to the 'guild cause', whether it be by adding to the guild coffers, participating in guild events or just signing on every day...
Without knowing what I know, on the surface I'd say you offered an excellent suggestion - however knowing the reality of the matter, not so much.
The nice thing about “human behavior” is that it can evolve and be changed for the better – that is if a person is inclined to allow it to happen or sometimes even if they aren’t. If we didn’t force some people to behave in a way they didn’t want to, we’d still have a nobility-peasant class system, feudalism, slavery and segregation and I think most people would probably agree that wouldn’t be a good thing.
Also as I keep trying to point out no one in this game is indispensible, if someone actually quits playing – instead of just repeatedly threatening to do so – chances are their absence will largely go unnoticed, so I don’t think too many on the operational side of the Neverwinter are all that concerned by claims of some players thinking they are being pushed away from the game.
Players will either choose to adapt or they will leave, and if the choose to leave, probably a half a dozen or more players will take their place and many of them completely happy with the game content.
I tend to think there are a lot more “good Samaritans” out there than not and it is the dominant human nature to try to help out the disadvantaged, especially if by doing so it also serves their own purposes – like not having to play with inexperienced players who sometimes tend to hamper things people wish to accomplish.
Advice and support should come from guild members. Relying on random people in short dungeons to take time out and help someone they'll probably never see again is somewhat naive and absolutely ignores typical human behaviour.
The occasional good Samaritan aside, people tend to invest time in those that are linked to them - such as friends or guild members. If that was the ultimate goal for the developers, then they needed to start with a basic understanding of which incentives work, not just dangle a little carrot and back it up with a large stick.
Forcing players to behave in ways that they don't want by threatening them with various punishments will quite simply push them away from the game.
Like, for example, forcing them to join a guild to get advice?
Also as I keep trying to point out no one in this game is indispensible, if someone actually quits playing – instead of just repeatedly threatening to do so – chances are their absence will largely go unnoticed, so I don’t think too many on the operational side of the Neverwinter are all that concerned by claims of some players thinking they are being pushed away from the game.
On this, I would point out that two years ago many people pointed out that the introduction of drains & invisibility rings would have a negative impact on pvp and many players said they would quit. This was at a time that it had a decent population.
Now look at it, it is almost dead.
We were right, they were wrong. They ruined a decent aspect of the game and 2 years later it still hasn't recovered.
I don't know how long you've played the game but I've been here since mod 4 and I can say that we've had some changes that have had an impact on the player population that we've never recovered from.
If you believe that such a cost is worth it to enforce a myopically ignorant ideology on people, then, well I'm lost for words. Your suggestions ignore the history of the game - I'm including your suggestions on AD earnings etc which show a lack of understanding of the economy etc.
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Like, for example, forcing them to join a guild to get advice?
People don't 'have' to join a guild to get advice. My reason for joining these forums nearly 3 years ago was for precisely this reason. I didn't join a guild for my first 6 months in the game so I sought advice elsewhere.
I'm saying this as one of those 'good samaritans' I mentioned previously. I often offer advice to newer players and often give them enchantments, mounts, companions, links to builds, suggestions on rotations etc. Sometimes the help/advice is appreciated but just as often they respond negatively. I'm sure many people have had their fingers burned when trying to help someone.
Yes, there are guilds that demand a constant flow of donations, but there are quite a few that don't. Casual Gamers are the first example that spring to mind but there are many others that follow a similar philosophy.
Should a player be 'forced' to join a guild? Absolutely not - player freedom is very important. Should a player be forced to sit in a dungeon for 30 minutes whilst someone goes 'sightseeing' because they'll get banned from dungeons if they leave? Absolutely not - player freedom is very important.
You cannot apply 'freedom' to one aspect on the player base without applying the principle across the board. A player should be 'free' to run a dungeon however they like, but of equal importance, another player should be 'free' to leave if they want.
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Also as I keep trying to point out no one in this game is indispensible, if someone actually quits playing – instead of just repeatedly threatening to do so – chances are their absence will largely go unnoticed, so I don’t think too many on the operational side of the Neverwinter are all that concerned by claims of some players thinking they are being pushed away from the game.
On this, I would point out that two years ago many people pointed out that the introduction of drains & invisibility rings would have a negative impact on pvp and many players said they would quit. This was at a time that it had a decent population.
Now look at it, it is almost dead.
We were right, they were wrong. They ruined a decent aspect of the game and 2 years later it still hasn't recovered.
I don't know how long you've played the game but I've been here since mod 4 and I can say that we've had some changes that have had an impact on the player population that we've never recovered from.
If you believe that such a cost is worth it to enforce a myopically ignorant ideology on people, then, well I'm lost for words. Your suggestions ignore the history of the game - I'm including your suggestions on AD earnings etc which show a lack of understanding of the economy etc.
I've been playing never since before the first Protector's Jubilee.
2 years ago Neverwinter was 2-years-old and there weren't a lot of other "free to play" MMO's like Neverwinter out there, granted game changes probably had something to do with a decline in the player census but despite those changes when Neverwinter added additional platforms it claimed a landmark "15 million players" just last year and Neverwinter is still listed as one of the most popular free to play PC games according to several gamer magazines.
Also as I keep trying to point out no one in this game is indispensible, if someone actually quits playing – instead of just repeatedly threatening to do so – chances are their absence will largely go unnoticed, so I don’t think too many on the operational side of the Neverwinter are all that concerned by claims of some players thinking they are being pushed away from the game.
On this, I would point out that two years ago many people pointed out that the introduction of drains & invisibility rings would have a negative impact on pvp and many players said they would quit. This was at a time that it had a decent population.
Now look at it, it is almost dead.
We were right, they were wrong. They ruined a decent aspect of the game and 2 years later it still hasn't recovered.
I don't know how long you've played the game but I've been here since mod 4 and I can say that we've had some changes that have had an impact on the player population that we've never recovered from.
If you believe that such a cost is worth it to enforce a myopically ignorant ideology on people, then, well I'm lost for words. Your suggestions ignore the history of the game - I'm including your suggestions on AD earnings etc which show a lack of understanding of the economy etc.
I've been playing never since before the first Protector's Jubilee.
2 years ago Neverwinter was 2-years-old and there weren't a lot of other "free to play" MMO's like Neverwinter out there, granted game changes probably had something to do with a decline in the player census but despite those changes when Neverwinter added additional platforms it claimed a landmark of "15 million players" just last year and Neverwinter is still listed as one of the most popular free to play PC games according to several gamer magazines.
Yes it was, I believe he is deliberately taking things out of context to support his position.
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As to what an experienced player can teach a newbie in dungeons, the locations of the crystals and other items in the Cloak Tower to open chests after defeating the boss in that content, in the temple of the spider shortcuts and tactics to avoid a couple of mobs, and of course there are more. One thing I find myself reminding a lot of less experienced players about is the advantages of "combat advantage" instead of everyone in the party attacking from the same positions. In the Cloak Tower especially but other places as well, I've also summoned my Aurora's catalog merchant, for players needing potions, injury kits or inventory space which usually leads to "how can I get one of those?"... I've also given away a rank5 enchantment or two and that is just a paltry example of how higher level players can help lower level players, give them the opportunity to enjoy the content and hopefully become interested, long time loyal players.
Honestly I missed the specific PVP reference as I've never been interested in PVP and from what I hear and see with the amount of players presently overpowered by way of add-on buffs, enchantments and gear very few new players or less experienced players are thrilled about going to PVP and repeatedly having their butts handed to them by those over powered types of characters either... just strike up or watch some of the conversations about PVP by people in PE Zone chat if you want to see for yourself.
Want to know why so few people seem to be interested in PVP anymore... my thoughts are a PVP advocate doesn't need to look beyond their gear score -vs- the gear scores for other players, particularly new players who sign in to try it out.
If a new or low level PVP player repeated looses there is zero incentive to go back, if any PVP player feels they are basically spectators because all of the over-powered players are dominating the content they have zero incentive to go back... PVP has turned into the Neverwinter version of a school yard; "look at me and what I can do" as far as I'm concerned and speaking for myself as well as several players I know personally - we have no interest in anything like that.
No chat about tactics or teamwork no suggestions about how best to play the content, just basically a free for all with over powered and experienced players duking it out and everyone else there is just 'fodder' as far as they're concerned.
PVP isn't 'dying', it is being slowly 'killed' by people who seek to dominate the content and don't appear to be interested in playing as a team the way it was intended... at least that's my opinion.
Want to see some life pumped into PVP? My suggestion would be every high level character knocked down to the level of the lowest queued player, all of there gear, enhancements and enchantments negated to an equal level for all players on both teams and put the emphasis back on cooperation, teamwork and tactics... that's what would prompt a resurgence in the interest of PVP as far as I'm concerned.
Some people who have previously run dungeons or skirmishes see no personal benefit to the 'extras' different content provides so they choose to ignore those extras just wanting to get their astral diamonds quickly and get out, often so they can just do it all over again.
The unfortunate side of that is for other players who actually want or need to explore the content a little deeper, are perceived as hampering some players who are only interested in mining dungeons for astral diamonds.
So what it appears to boil down to is people who actually want to play and experience the content -vs- players only wanting to run that content for astral diamonds and personally I will continue to side with those who want to play and experience the game content over those playing just to accumulate more in game wealth for themselves.
I too look forward to running dungeons and skirmishes for an astral diamond reward at the end, but instead of complaining about or attempting to inhibit any other player from running a dungeon or skirmish to actually experience it, I try to help them if I can... different players - different attitudes.
Those who only seem to be running content to farm astral diamonds who try to impugn or condemn anyone or anything that keeps them from expediently doing so – I have very little sympathy for when they complain about someone or something keeping them from getting their AD's quickly enough… but that’s just speaking for myself.
People tend to side with those they identify with, espousing the virtues of their position whereas in reality they are exhibiting a form of selfishness because they benefit more from things going the way they are promoting.
To my mind the fairest position is one that creates a win-win for ALL players, both new and veteran.
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Answers
The problem isn’t the random queue as far as I’m concerned it is and always has been player behavior during the random dungeon queue…
If you look closely at most of the complaints they are primarily about player behavior and how one player or another objects to how other randomly queued players in the party play.
For higher level players it often boils down to new and low level players keeping them from obtaining their astral diamonds from leveling dungeons as quickly and easily as they want to…
For lower level players it is often about upper level players trying to play as a solo entity instead of a party.
Sorry to wind up at opposite ends of an issue again but I happen to think the random queue system does work, I and a few people I know personally (not just in the game, but I’ve heard this from people I know only from the game as well) who have been randomly partied with more experienced players say we have learned many things we probably wouldn’t have learned running solo or only with the groups we usually queue with… We’ve also had the opportunity to randomly run with some lower level players who seemed to be genuinely interested and grateful for a little patience and suggestions from more experienced players.
Recently I ran with a level 26 character who had no idea they could pick up items in the Cloak Tower to open other chests following the final battle... though they said they’d run the Tower many times previously, it usually consisted of little more than trying to catch up with a party member or members running ahead and waiting for them at the final boss gate.
> Don’t you HAVE to complete Cloak Tower to get to another level of the game? Same holds true for most of those T1 dungeons, hence they are called leveling dungeons.
>
> No. None of the dungeons are mandatory for progress.
Really? I seem to remember having to go to the Cloak Tower as part of the early quest chain. Sooo long ago though...
For that matter a player doesn't need astral diamonds to play the game either - also a true statement.
But if a player wants to be able to obtain better gear, mounts or whatever then astral diamonds become an important part of their gaming experience... but still it is because they choose to do - not something they "must do".
However if a player chooses to complete the game content as it was designed and reap the rewards and boons for completing tasks specified for those areas, they "must do" specific tasks, including doing the Cloak Tower to complete the game specified tasks for the Tower District.
What it appears we've been talking about here is different gaming styles and preferences, and what seems to be some players acceptance or lack of tolerance for the preferences and play styles of other players.
But the title of the thread was to address "freeloaders" and all I've come away with regarding that topic so far is a lot of people seem to have a different opinion (sometimes based on their own personal expectations of others) of what constitutes a freeloader. The majority of us don't have any way to determine if another player is actually a freeloader, a victim of circumstances beyond their control, or just chooses to play in a manner that doesn't meet their expectations of others.
My opinion: Just play the game – and allow others to do the same and don't even consider kicking anyone out simply because you disapprove of their choice of gear, speed or play style, but feel free to remove a player if it appears they are disconnected and have been for the time period that allows the kick option.
As a matter of fact I firmly believe (or at least sincerely hope) if people are persistently perceived as abusing the content, such as kicking out or harassing low level players in low level dungeons for "not being fast enough", eventually the developers will make changes to player abilities to force moderation of player behavior - just like they installed the vote to kick option and the timer because the kick feature was being abused.
As an alternative suggestion I would propose the difficulty for dungeons rewarding astral diamonds be scaled to a player's character level and item level for admittance... too high a level and those players are excluded from entering lower level dungeons - too low a level and those players are excluded from entering higher level dungeons.
I've specifically mentioned "item level" because even in the current content I've personally seen some low level characters with very high level enchantments, such as a level 20-something Trickster Rogue character with level 11 Dark enchantments in their utility slots and level 8+ enchantments in their other gear slots.
As to the suggestion of astral diamonds be removed from "leveling dungeons", to me that would seem to suggest a person thinks players actually leveling in leveling dungeons, don't need or deserve astral diamonds, an opinion I absolutely disagree with.
For all saying this is a result of the random que update, well that is just untrue altogether. It may have become more frequent now, but it was still happening before random ques. I remember leveling up alts and every time it came to doing a dungeon I would cringe at the sight of a 70 with an overpowered weapon enchant blasting off from the campfire, leaving everyone else behind. So you're pretty much left doing that walkthrough tour of the dungeon that is completely boring as hell, until you reach the little pink circle that he's waiting at impatiently, probably unaware that you equally despise him being there. Its been happening even when the reward was only around 5k ad to complete any low level dungeon. Farming reasons I'm sure, but for those looking forward to testing out their skills against non-trash mobs, its a bummer. Especially while leveling a tank or other support class, periodically I like to see if my build choices are correct or effective when needed.
Now, there was an option before the update to private que just yourself into the dungeon with nobody else for the same ad rewards, not sure if that's a possibility still.
The other side of it is, how many people are leveling new or alt characters? Its not very challenging to get to level 60 for sure, 60-70 takes a bit longer, but could you imagine how long the leveling players would be sitting in que for some barely revisited dungeon whether an overpowered 70 joined or didnt? Might be hours. So, I just roll with it. Even though I'm bummed out about not using or testing out my skills in a dungeon, sure beats waiting there for hours in que to complete a campaign.
As 70's and pre-70's have different reasons for being in the dungeon it inevitably causes friction - and locking them in with the threat of a 30 min ban just puts petrol on the fire.
All of this was explained to the devs before they brought it in - it turned out exactly as predicted, and they have been silent on the subject ever since.
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This does happen on occasion, but probably not to the extent hoped for I'm guessing since quite a few higher level players only seem to be interested in collecting their astral diamonds as quickly and easily as possible and tend to resent any player or any thing that disrupts that.
I believe that's why so many are calling for the return to the old ways where players can mine their astral diamonds for themselves, without being 'inconvenienced' by other players.
It isn't about the game - it's about some player's ability (or lack of) to accumulate personal wealth, without having to spend any actual money... Something I don't think too many developers are too concerned about.
But that's just my opinion.
Personally I'd hate to see it but if AD runs were limited to one character, per day that would solve a lot of problems - except for the people only playing to accumulate as many AD's as possible - and it would separate the people who are actually trying to play the game from those just in it for the perceived profit.
If a player has an account with 2 characters they can do two astral diamond runs - if they have 50 characters in their account they can do AD runs 50 times for the payout... but regardless each character in a player's account is only able to collect astral diamonds from AD runs once per day.
The occasional good Samaritan aside, people tend to invest time in those that are linked to them - such as friends or guild members. If that was the ultimate goal for the developers, then they needed to start with a basic understanding of which incentives work, not just dangle a little carrot and back it up with a large stick.
Forcing players to behave in ways that they don't want by threatening them with various punishments will quite simply push them away from the game.
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Without knowing what I know, on the surface I'd say you offered an excellent suggestion - however knowing the reality of the matter, not so much.
The nice thing about “human behavior” is that it can evolve and be changed for the better – that is if a person is inclined to allow it to happen or sometimes even if they aren’t. If we didn’t force some people to behave in a way they didn’t want to, we’d still have a nobility-peasant class system, feudalism, slavery and segregation and I think most people would probably agree that wouldn’t be a good thing.
Also as I keep trying to point out no one in this game is indispensible, if someone actually quits playing – instead of just repeatedly threatening to do so – chances are their absence will largely go unnoticed, so I don’t think too many on the operational side of the Neverwinter are all that concerned by claims of some players thinking they are being pushed away from the game.
Players will either choose to adapt or they will leave, and if the choose to leave, probably a half a dozen or more players will take their place and many of them completely happy with the game content.
I tend to think there are a lot more “good Samaritans” out there than not and it is the dominant human nature to try to help out the disadvantaged, especially if by doing so it also serves their own purposes – like not having to play with inexperienced players who sometimes tend to hamper things people wish to accomplish.
Advice and support should come from guild members. Relying on random people in short dungeons to take time out and help someone they'll probably never see again is somewhat naive and absolutely ignores typical human behaviour.
The occasional good Samaritan aside, people tend to invest time in those that are linked to them - such as friends or guild members. If that was the ultimate goal for the developers, then they needed to start with a basic understanding of which incentives work, not just dangle a little carrot and back it up with a large stick.
Forcing players to behave in ways that they don't want by threatening them with various punishments will quite simply push them away from the game.
Like, for example, forcing them to join a guild to get advice?
Now look at it, it is almost dead.
We were right, they were wrong. They ruined a decent aspect of the game and 2 years later it still hasn't recovered.
I don't know how long you've played the game but I've been here since mod 4 and I can say that we've had some changes that have had an impact on the player population that we've never recovered from.
If you believe that such a cost is worth it to enforce a myopically ignorant ideology on people, then, well I'm lost for words. Your suggestions ignore the history of the game - I'm including your suggestions on AD earnings etc which show a lack of understanding of the economy etc.
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I'm saying this as one of those 'good samaritans' I mentioned previously. I often offer advice to newer players and often give them enchantments, mounts, companions, links to builds, suggestions on rotations etc. Sometimes the help/advice is appreciated but just as often they respond negatively. I'm sure many people have had their fingers burned when trying to help someone.
Yes, there are guilds that demand a constant flow of donations, but there are quite a few that don't. Casual Gamers are the first example that spring to mind but there are many others that follow a similar philosophy.
Should a player be 'forced' to join a guild? Absolutely not - player freedom is very important. Should a player be forced to sit in a dungeon for 30 minutes whilst someone goes 'sightseeing' because they'll get banned from dungeons if they leave? Absolutely not - player freedom is very important.
You cannot apply 'freedom' to one aspect on the player base without applying the principle across the board. A player should be 'free' to run a dungeon however they like, but of equal importance, another player should be 'free' to leave if they want.
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2 years ago Neverwinter was 2-years-old and there weren't a lot of other "free to play" MMO's like Neverwinter out there, granted game changes probably had something to do with a decline in the player census but despite those changes when Neverwinter added additional platforms it claimed a landmark "15 million players" just last year and Neverwinter is still listed as one of the most popular free to play PC games according to several gamer magazines.
I certainly wouldn't call it "almost dead".
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W, A, S, D?
Honestly I missed the specific PVP reference as I've never been interested in PVP and from what I hear and see with the amount of players presently overpowered by way of add-on buffs, enchantments and gear very few new players or less experienced players are thrilled about going to PVP and repeatedly having their butts handed to them by those over powered types of characters either... just strike up or watch some of the conversations about PVP by people in PE Zone chat if you want to see for yourself.
Want to know why so few people seem to be interested in PVP anymore... my thoughts are a PVP advocate doesn't need to look beyond their gear score -vs- the gear scores for other players, particularly new players who sign in to try it out.
If a new or low level PVP player repeated looses there is zero incentive to go back, if any PVP player feels they are basically spectators because all of the over-powered players are dominating the content they have zero incentive to go back... PVP has turned into the Neverwinter version of a school yard; "look at me and what I can do" as far as I'm concerned and speaking for myself as well as several players I know personally - we have no interest in anything like that.
No chat about tactics or teamwork no suggestions about how best to play the content, just basically a free for all with over powered and experienced players duking it out and everyone else there is just 'fodder' as far as they're concerned.
PVP isn't 'dying', it is being slowly 'killed' by people who seek to dominate the content and don't appear to be interested in playing as a team the way it was intended... at least that's my opinion.
Want to see some life pumped into PVP? My suggestion would be every high level character knocked down to the level of the lowest queued player, all of there gear, enhancements and enchantments negated to an equal level for all players on both teams and put the emphasis back on cooperation, teamwork and tactics... that's what would prompt a resurgence in the interest of PVP as far as I'm concerned.
The unfortunate side of that is for other players who actually want or need to explore the content a little deeper, are perceived as hampering some players who are only interested in mining dungeons for astral diamonds.
So what it appears to boil down to is people who actually want to play and experience the content -vs- players only wanting to run that content for astral diamonds and personally I will continue to side with those who want to play and experience the game content over those playing just to accumulate more in game wealth for themselves.
I too look forward to running dungeons and skirmishes for an astral diamond reward at the end, but instead of complaining about or attempting to inhibit any other player from running a dungeon or skirmish to actually experience it, I try to help them if I can... different players - different attitudes.
Those who only seem to be running content to farm astral diamonds who try to impugn or condemn anyone or anything that keeps them from expediently doing so – I have very little sympathy for when they complain about someone or something keeping them from getting their AD's quickly enough… but that’s just speaking for myself.
To my mind the fairest position is one that creates a win-win for ALL players, both new and veteran.
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