Mmmh...but while they are more vulnerable to CC compared to GWFs, when it comes to damage mitigation, they have a better tool (shield up is 80% DR on a different layer), while i noticed that GWFs get damage through sprint and unstoppable, even if there's some reduction. The damage they take is still noticeable.
As usal yes and no. Pando you are a nice person but in this you bias is shining through as you only look at it from one side of the storry.
Gf while blocking eat more damage sure but Gwf takes tons of more damage compared to a non blocking GF. Gf still cant do damage without letting block down and once cced Gf is quite easy to kill while Gwf well geared most certianly are not.
In Mod12b, with the self-healing reductions, GWFs go down way faster in my experience, since their survivability came mainly from self heals, while i noticed that unless they get ganged up by multiple enemies, GFs can survive a bit more. Also, most GFs i meet play in a very straight forward and predictable way: turtle, pop ITF and the go straight for bullcharge. More experienced ones pop ITF and fake bullcharge at least one time, using it when the GWF stops sprinting.
Mod 12(including 12b) did not hurt Gwf as much as Gf(and most others exluding Pal and some Cw) mainly because of 2 reasons. 1 Gwf has much faster and harder hitting at wills making tons of damage with good lifesteal return while Gf only makes few attacks between blocking. Gwf still has a good return from lifesteal while it is more or less waste on a Gf and 2 piercing damage which was the main danger for Gwf is severly cut down in total even counting in SoD. Before Gwf died from exe and Hr now they can at least run away from Tr and will surive first round of SoD while before exe was instant death.
But in a 1v1 fight on a node, GWF vs GF, the GWF has to work way more and is at a little disadvantage. Mainly because, as i mentioned, the defensive tools of GWFs get "pierced" and mitigate less damage than a GF shield. Also the self buffs on GWF take longer/ more sacrifice to build up (take damage, go unstoppable exc...+ destroyer stacks on single target being a % chance to proc).
Work more is not as same as difficult it is not a good argument as this is not a very advanced game when it come to combat. If you would go into lagg and ping playing very far from servers timing can be harder for some but thats about it. As long as Gf goes down while cought out of blocking and Gwf has unstoppable and can run away Gwf has the upper hand when it comes to being able to survive in pvp atm.
Gwf and Gf is today pretty much even at bis lvl Gf a bit better if low geared but I would say once bis GWF has the upper hand which also can be seen on the leaderboard if you compare best Gwf against best Gf.
You need to stop lining up every single advantage for Gf against every single weakness for Gwfs when you compare if you want to have some serious discussion otherwise it just becomes finger pointing leaving out all of the facts.
Pvp atm is so dominated by Trs that the rest is just filler ups. If you have 2 deacent Tr on your team and the other team has non you already won the game 9/10 times.
Every match has at the very least 2 tr most of the matches has 3-4 or when people get kicked 5. As it is now (and as it looks now Tr GETS BUFFED IN MOD 13!!!!!!!!!!!!) if nothing changes pvp is dead to all but some Trs that can run around more or less immortal with godly damage that can not be avoided and if you are a Gf Gwf or whatever it wont matter much as you will be hitting air and die to some damage you cant see or avoid any way .....
He's got a pally right next to him with Courage and Vengeance on, as well as Aura Gifts what do you think is going to happen.
And you didn't get "1 shot", you had a little more than 91,683 HP, and with all the stacks + those buffs from the OP, thats what happens.
Only question I have is wether or not your ITC proc'd because I saw you were immune to the BC, but not sure if it was up to the point of the Anvil.
93k with 1 hit.... buff or no buff that's broken ! Our itc is broken. It doesn't always proc.
It's not ok for a tr to 1 hit kill you with only lashing blade using first strike + buffs doing 100k damage in stealth but it's ok for a gf to 1 hit kill you with marking + pally buffs and anvil doing 100K+ damage ?
He's got a pally right next to him with Courage and Vengeance on, as well as Aura Gifts what do you think is going to happen.
And you didn't get "1 shot", you had a little more than 91,683 HP, and with all the stacks + those buffs from the OP, thats what happens.
Only question I have is wether or not your ITC proc'd because I saw you were immune to the BC, but not sure if it was up to the point of the Anvil.
93k with 1 hit.... buff or no buff that's broken ! Our itc is broken. It doesn't always proc.
It's not ok for a tr to 1 hit kill you with only lashing blade using first strike + buffs doing 100k damage in stealth but it's ok for a gf to 1 hit kill you with marking + pally buffs and anvil doing 100K+ damage ?
1 you see the Gf you have the chanse to dodge itc hide if deflect hits 85% deflect severity will save you. 2 You get hit from buffed SoD you die without seeing where it came from no chanse to dodge no deflect can save you and the damage is unresistable so even 1000% resist will not save you immunity will not save you YOU DIE.
100k hit buffed is doeble by pal gf gwf cw tr and even archery Hr in todays pvp is it to much maby maby not but that is NOT the issue only Tr damage can NOT be dodged deflected resisted in any way but going invisible and is most of the time delivered by a sourse you can not even see is that to much the answer is YES IT IS.
If you can not see the differance here I suggest this set up a fight between a good 14k + Tr against all other classes same geared and see what happens in 1-1 then put up 2 non Tr against same Tr followed up by 2 Tr against 1 of any other class and then count the number of wins for Trs compared to other classes after that I am pretty sure you will not come back here with your current arguments in fact am sure of it....
It's fun how some players are so fast to call "bias" when it comes to a discussion about classes, as usual, while i compared tools and discussed gameplay experience, without accusing anyone of anything. Accusing someone out of the blue of being bias to invalidate their post is sure much easier than reply to comparisons, with other comparisons. But no. Sorry to tell you, i'm not bias. I play actively 5 classes, and when in the past (long long time ago) GWF needed a nerf, i posted in favor of the nerf. Unlike players nowadays who defend broken stuff saying that their class "needs it".
First thing, i didn't "line up" stuff. I COMPARED shift mechanics, i compared damage and powers, o compared mobility. And in the end i said that GWF tools are outdated compared to GF, which is the reason why they perform well only at BiS level. And, while accusing me of being "bias", you guys say the same (GWF more dependent on gear), but then focus on "BiS vs BiS they are close". Too bad what i compare are the tools. My first post was pretty clear, and none of the replies focused on those comparisons. All you focused on was the conclusion on which class is more effective, but while i took into account whole iLvL range, you decide to conveniently focus on "BiS" level only, which is 1% of the players.
Second thing: you guys accuse me of being bias during a discussion where i simply compared tools and facts. You can disagree, as macjae did, and post your comparisons. But instead you decide to go personal. I'd say, as usual. I play multiple classes, in PvP too. I'm actually more active, lately, on my HR in PvP. Funny thing, one of the posters who accuse me of being "bias" face my glass cannon archer on his geared GF, and started attacking and insulting in PM when focused and killed, while his GF was killing everyone with ease. It's funny that a player playing one of the strongest classes in PvP, with both monster damage and survivability and CC, takes the time to get angry and attack a player playing a glass cannon build.
I also advocate for changes to TR. You guys would say i'm bias there too. Too bad i do it because current TR playstyle with passive SoD procs and stuff, is boring. Too easy, too passive. Which is the reason why i'm vocal against SoD. Because i'd like my TR to be more fun to play. I play my GF everyday. It would be weird if i was "bias" against a class i play everyday. But for you guys, it's always bias when someone says your class has some advantage.
You also assume that my idea about GWFs and GFs come from me playing a GWF and not a GF in PvP. Again, wrong. I play way less in PvP with my GWF, as i said, i'm more active with my alts. And my experience comes from facing GWFs and GFs at multiple iLvLs with multiple classes. GF included.
But again, you guys are not interested in a normal discussion. You only want to shut up everyone who posts something you don't like.
Last thing, more interesting: i wrote in multiple posts that "GWF tools are outdated". It's interesting, because you guys too admitted that GWF needs more gear and only talked about BiS. Basically confirming what i wrote. But in the end it's obviously bias. As discussed by the OP, i posted experience on how GF damage interacts with GWF defensive tools. But for you guys, this must be bias.
You guys should grow up and learn from macjae how to discuss matters on a forum. From now on, i'll ignore such posts. Same as i put on ignore the GF that in game was insulting me on my HR via private messages.
It's fun how some players are so fast to call "bias" when it comes to a discussion about classes, as usual, while i compared tools and discussed gameplay experience, without accusing anyone of anything. Accusing someone out of the blue of being bias to invalidate their post is sure much easier than reply to comparisons, with other comparisons. But no. Sorry to tell you, i'm not bias. I play actively 5 classes, and when in the past (long long time ago) GWF needed a nerf, i posted in favor of the nerf. Unlike players nowadays who defend broken stuff saying that their class "needs it".
First thing, i didn't "line up" stuff. I COMPARED shift mechanics, i compared damage and powers, o compared mobility. And in the end i said that GWF tools are outdated compared to GF, which is the reason why they perform well only at BiS level. And, while accusing me of being "bias", you guys say the same (GWF more dependent on gear), but then focus on "BiS vs BiS they are close". Too bad what i compare are the tools. My first post was pretty clear, and none of the replies focused on those comparisons. All you focused on was the conclusion on which class is more effective, but while i took into account whole iLvL range, you decide to conveniently focus on "BiS" level only, which is 1% of the players.
Second thing: you guys accuse me of being bias during a discussion where i simply compared tools and facts. You can disagree, as macjae did, and post your comparisons. But instead you decide to go personal. I'd say, as usual. I play multiple classes, in PvP too. I'm actually more active, lately, on my HR in PvP. Funny thing, one of the posters who accuse me of being "bias" face my glass cannon archer on his geared GF, and started attacking and insulting in PM when focused and killed, while his GF was killing everyone with ease. It's funny that a player playing one of the strongest classes in PvP, with both monster damage and survivability and CC, takes the time to get angry and attack a player playing a glass cannon build.
I also advocate for changes to TR. You guys would say i'm bias there too. Too bad i do it because current TR playstyle with passive SoD procs and stuff, is boring. Too easy, too passive. Which is the reason why i'm vocal against SoD. Because i'd like my TR to be more fun to play. I play my GF everyday. It would be weird if i was "bias" against a class i play everyday. But for you guys, it's always bias when someone says your class has some advantage.
You also assume that my idea about GWFs and GFs come from me playing a GWF and not a GF in PvP. Again, wrong. I play way less in PvP with my GWF, as i said, i'm more active with my alts. And my experience comes from facing GWFs and GFs at multiple iLvLs with multiple classes. GF included.
But again, you guys are not interested in a normal discussion. You only want to shut up everyone who posts something you don't like.
Last thing, more interesting: i wrote in multiple posts that "GWF tools are outdated". It's interesting, because you guys too admitted that GWF needs more gear and only talked about BiS. Basically confirming what i wrote. But in the end it's obviously bias. As discussed by the OP, i posted experience on how GF damage interacts with GWF defensive tools. But for you guys, this must be bias.
You guys should grow up and learn from macjae how to discuss matters on a forum. From now on, i'll ignore such posts. Same as i put on ignore the GF that in game was insulting me on my HR via private messages.
We'll talk again when you grow up.
I see that you have a hard time when people do not agree with you and ignoring those that do not agree is a thing for children if you want to go into growing up.
Your examples are bias you refure to building stacks to do damage for Gwf but fail to mention Gf has to do the same, you refure to block being able to soak up more damage then Gwf but fail to mention Gwf being able to soak up more damage once unstoppable compared to Gf without block. In every situation you try to work out a situation where Gwf would have an dissadvantage toward Gfs but you leave out the opposite.
You focus on the absolute strenght of the Gf class and on those situations where Gf is at advantage and compare it with Gwf where they are weakest it is called being bias.
You also leave out i started with you are a nice person and then focus on being insulted where there is no insult my guess is that if some has to grow up and leave out the personal insults and reading insults into a post where there is non its not me in this case.
Just read up through you examples and try to find where you compare Gf and Gwf in a fair way not trying to prove a point = being bias..
That some classes are weaker and some stronger before becomming bis is another matter entirely and has nothing to do with my posts....
No videos shown, that speaks volumes as to what GF vs GWF is 1v1 at BiS which is what I requested you about.
I'm yet to see any video in which any of the best tier GFs ever had the upper hand when fighting Ruy and Icy, the very same reason you didn't provide any video eidence of that but there are plenty of videos of them owning GFs over and over again, Ryu has one absolutely destroying notable ones.
Video proof of BiS GWF (that knows his stuff) > BiS GF (that knows his stuff) > your clear bias post against GF, you showed zero video evidence on BiS GF having the upper hand on BiS Ryu's/Icy's GWF, no one has actually ever done that post ITF nerf from what I remember, no one has because they have no video proof.
BiS GWF that knows what he's doing > BiS GF that knows what he's doing.
Here's a video from yesterday. Best GWF v Best GF on Xbox. We both know our class very well. This was a lot of fun.
Side note: GWF is using a Valhalla set! I was impressed.
I want to see 1v1 between a GF and a CW, SW, DPS-DC and HR equally skilled. Showing a GF vs a GWF or OP is clash of overpowered classes all dominating the others.... Beware if they also buff other weaker classes...GFs may not like result of return of ray of death kind CW or similar buffs to SW DC HR. Buffing is not often desirable instead of nerfing because tables will be turned and others will be coming to QQ against death rays...
1) I don't. Proof is, macjae does not agree with me, yet we can discuss and i replied to him no problem. So your first point is BS.
2)I mentioned how GFs build stacks, i also said it's faster and easier/ costs less for GF to build stacks compared to GWF. I also explained why. You just need to READ. So your 2nd point is BS too.
3)I compared block to sprint because they are both shift mechanics. I also mentioned that in my experience, unstoppable does not mitigate much damage since, i'd say, module 4, and i also mentioned how usntoppable temp HPs are halved in PvP. I also mentioned how my post comes from playing both the classes mentioned and AGAINST the mentioned classes in PvP. I have covered all the aspects in my posts, but may be you have a hard time reading.
4)I mentioned where GF is at a disadvantage (group fights) and agreed with macjae that GF lacks the sprint to run away. Before mac posted, i already wrote about how TRs die less compared to GF because they can escape easily. But i also mentioned how sprint does not always grant GWFs an easy escape, since ranged damage from pretty much all ranged classes deals noticeable damage even through sprint.
5)I wrote A LOT about all the mechanics involved in GWFvs GF, and about the multiple tactics GWFs can use to damage/ kill the GF. But again, may be you suffer from selective reading. Go back and try to read again. You know, all that part where i wrote about sprinting away, about waiting for the GF to drop shield to daily+IBS, about using FS to CC the GF when he drops the shield, and so on. Also the part where i clearly stated "TRs dominate GWFs. GWF vs GF is still a fight exc...".
So your other points too, i can sum it up with a :"sorry pando, i didn't even read your posts, and now you have to re-post point by point to debunk all my BS".
In the end, not a single thing you wrote about my posts is right. More like you ignored most of the stuff i wrote just to prove your "point" about me being "bias". You're embarassing yourself, and honestly, i am not a charity, so if you can't read, i won't keep re-posting the stuff i wrote, just to have you ignoring it again on your next post. Try to focus more on what is written and less on personal attacks. Calling a player bias to invalidate his posts, instead of answering point by point, is a personal attack. It's something i've seen many times in these years. Most people do not reply about the subject. They prefer to ignore everything and just try to discredit the player who posted. Just like you did.
It does not matter if YOUR post was not about how classes scale with gear. My post was about:
1) how damage from GF interacts with GWF defensive tools, to answer the OP 2) how those tools are outdated, with proof being how GWF efficiency scales with gear. On a side note, other experienced players already mentioned, multiple times, how GWF tools are outdated. Expecially sprint.
You REPLIED TO MY POST. So, by logic, it's you who must talk about the matter that was discussed in said post. Instead you shifted the matter on how 1v1 is at BiS level, and then complain if i don't follow your change of matter.
Also: to be "bias" it means i try to favor one class over another. Too bad, as i mentioned, that i play all 5 classes of my alts, i develop all of them, i build boons for all of them, i even left behind my GWF chult campaign to work on my HR,SW,DC,GF and TR. And expecially on the GF, buying companions, mounts, insignia, exc...which costs quite a bit.
Sorry to tell you this dude, but all that bias stuff is in your mind only, because, for the 10th time, i play all the above classes every day i can play, and develop all of them, often leaving my GWF behind.
Now you can go on with this bias stuff and look like a clown, or understand that i'm simply discussing my point of view on the class mentioned by the OP, based on my experience on all the 5 classes i play, as i already mentioned in the previous post (but you ignored this simple fact that i play GF and spend a lot of ADs to develop it, since at least 2 modules.
Now you can discuss bringing your experience/ knowledge, or you can keep repeating your "bias" mantra. Your choice.
I will correct myself however. You don't need to grow up. You probably just need to learn how to read...
No videos shown, that speaks volumes as to what GF vs GWF is 1v1 at BiS which is what I requested you about.
I'm yet to see any video in which any of the best tier GFs ever had the upper hand when fighting Ruy and Icy, the very same reason you didn't provide any video eidence of that but there are plenty of videos of them owning GFs over and over again, Ryu has one absolutely destroying notable ones.
Video proof of BiS GWF (that knows his stuff) > BiS GF (that knows his stuff) > your clear bias post against GF, you showed zero video evidence on BiS GF having the upper hand on BiS Ryu's/Icy's GWF, no one has actually ever done that post ITF nerf from what I remember, no one has because they have no video proof.
BiS GWF that knows what he's doing > BiS GF that knows what he's doing.
Here's a video from yesterday. Best GWF v Best GF on Xbox. We both know our class very well. This was a lot of fun.
Side note: GWF is using a Valhalla set! I was impressed.
Want to see 1v1 of BiS GF vs CW, SW, DPS-DC, HR equally skilled. Showing GF vs OP or GWF just shows clash of overpowered classes. Buffing other classes will come if overpowered ones are unwilling to take nerf...return of the ray of death CW or similar powers for SW, DC, HR...tables will turn and QQ will start against death rays CW. Then CWs will also post videos against OP and say "see? we have death ray but we are still killed easily". Not a great way t illustrate point...
1) I don't. Proof is, macjae does not agree with me, yet we can discuss and i replied to him no problem. So your first point is BS.
2)I mentioned how GFs build stacks, i also said it's faster and easier/ costs less for GF to build stacks compared to GWF. I also explained why. You just need to READ. So your 2nd point is BS too.
3)I compared block to sprint because they are both shift mechanics. I also mentioned that in my experience, unstoppable does not mitigate much damage since, i'd say, module 4, and i also mentioned how usntoppable temp HPs are halved in PvP. I also mentioned how my post comes from playing both the classes mentioned and AGAINST the mentioned classes in PvP. I have covered all the aspects in my posts, but may be you have a hard time reading.
4)I mentioned where GF is at a disadvantage (group fights) and agreed with macjae that GF lacks the sprint to run away. Before mac posted, i already wrote about how TRs die less compared to GF because they can escape easily. But i also mentioned how sprint does not always grant GWFs an easy escape, since ranged damage from pretty much all ranged classes deals noticeable damage even through sprint.
5)I wrote A LOT about all the mechanics involved in GWFvs GF, and about the multiple tactics GWFs can use to damage/ kill the GF. But again, may be you suffer from selective reading. Go back and try to read again. You know, all that part where i wrote about sprinting away, about waiting for the GF to drop shield to daily+IBS, about using FS to CC the GF when he drops the shield, and so on. Also the part where i clearly stated "TRs dominate GWFs. GWF vs GF is still a fight exc...".
So your other points too, i can sum it up with a :"sorry pando, i didn't even read your posts, and now you have to re-post point by point to debunk all my BS".
In the end, not a single thing you wrote about my posts is right. More like you ignored most of the stuff i wrote just to prove your "point" about me being "bias". You're embarassing yourself, and honestly, i am not a charity, so if you can't read, i won't keep re-posting the stuff i wrote, just to have you ignoring it again on your next post. Try to focus more on what is written and less on personal attacks. Calling a player bias to invalidate his posts, instead of answering point by point, is a personal attack. It's something i've seen many times in these years. Most people do not reply about the subject. They prefer to ignore everything and just try to discredit the player who posted. Just like you did.
It does not matter if YOUR post was not about how classes scale with gear. My post was about:
1) how damage from GF interacts with GWF defensive tools, to answer the OP 2) how those tools are outdated, with proof being how GWF efficiency scales with gear. On a side note, other experienced players already mentioned, multiple times, how GWF tools are outdated. Expecially sprint.
You REPLIED TO MY POST. So, by logic, it's you who must talk about the matter that was discussed in said post. Instead you shifted the matter on how 1v1 is at BiS level, and then complain if i don't follow your change of matter.
Also: to be "bias" it means i try to favor one class over another. Too bad, as i mentioned, that i play all 5 classes of my alts, i develop all of them, i build boons for all of them, i even left behind my GWF chult campaign to work on my HR,SW,DC,GF and TR. And expecially on the GF, buying companions, mounts, insignia, exc...which costs quite a bit.
Sorry to tell you this dude, but all that bias stuff is in your mind only, because, for the 10th time, i play all the above classes every day i can play, and develop all of them, often leaving my GWF behind.
Now you can go on with this bias stuff and look like a clown, or understand that i'm simply discussing my point of view on the class mentioned by the OP, based on my experience on all the 5 classes i play, as i already mentioned in the previous post (but you ignored this simple fact that i play GF and spend a lot of ADs to develop it, since at least 2 modules.
Now you can discuss bringing your experience/ knowledge, or you can keep repeating your "bias" mantra. Your choice.
I will correct myself however. You don't need to grow up. You probably just need to learn how to read...
Fact is your argument was built around proving your point using argument ONLY to support them Gf>Gwf using situations that was to support your argument leaving out the other facts = bias nm how you put it.
I play Hr, Sw, Pal, Gf, Gwf myself played since beta but that is beside the point.
You use personal insults trying to misscredit somebody (several in earlier posts) because somebody says you are bias?
You obviously see ghost where there is non and are both overreacting and namecalling in such a way somebody that lost all valid argument does.
Your argument about playing different classes trying to sound missunderstod has nothing to do with the issue at hand and deflecting and insulting will not make it more so.
Just a piece of advice most people writing dont care about you as a person but the topic at hand so in future leave your personal ego issues out of it nobody is interested if you think other are clowns or if YOU think their argument is based on feelings mkay...
As usual, your answer does not adress my points. Your last post starts with a statement that is already invalidated by points 1 to 5 i posted in the post above, about my previous posts.
Facts are those posted in my post you quoted above. Your first statement of your last post, instead, has no facts in it. You completely ignored all the points and all the facts i posted. Good job :'D I didn't insult anyone. I told you that posting ignoring what the other person writes, makes you look like a clown. An example:
In points 1 to 5 of the post i quoted, i underlined all the comparisons i made, the fact i talked about GF weak points, and the fact i extensively talked about GWF tactics to beat GFs. Those points are FACTS. Things i wrote. And you replied with NO FACTS. You simply repeated, like a mantra "you wanted to prove GF>GWF, you are bias", aven though the points 1 to 5 of the post you quoted, prove that it's not like that at all.
If you want, i can tell you that such behaviour makes you look smart. Also, i didn't say i was "misunderstood". What i wrote is pretty clear. I said you do not read at all even the posts you quote. And your last post is a good enough proof of this.
Your last statement is also funny. Before you guys started calling me "bias", i was discussing mechanics and the discussion was free from any personal attack. Then YOU started talking about about me (pando you're a good guy, but you're bias) instead of simply discussing the points like macjae did.
Sorry dude. Posts are there. Won't waste more time re-posting the same stuff again and again, just to see you ignore it.
I don't think courage breaker does 120% damage reduction, that does not even make sense, I thought it was 30% plus a bit more each stack.
You are not the first person to notice that CB's damage debuff seems weaker than advertised. I never did testing for CB but me along with several other players have noticed for mods now that something isn't quite right about CB's debuff. I can count many incidents where I have been killed by CBed players.
You are right, courage breaker doesn't reduce the target's attack damage by the 120% stated on the tooltip. @rustlord, a good PVP WK TR, did some testing on it several months ago and found that CB's debuff is actually 54.54%.
Nowadays, I treat CB like the debuff isn't even there when I PVP. The only time I ever use CB specifically for its debuff is to try to help PVE groups that are taking too much damage.
-- PVP Rogue, --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]-- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin) Ingame Handle: trgluestickz Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563 Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud Platform: PC
Nerfing GF damage will hurt them in Pve, which I wouldn't wish on any class. Nerfing the prone will go a long way towards balance, and not affect their performance in Pve.
No idea what my toon is now.
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
It's fun how some players are so fast to call "bias" when it comes to a discussion about classes, as usual, while i compared tools and discussed gameplay experience, without accusing anyone of anything. Accusing someone out of the blue of being bias to invalidate their post is sure much easier than reply to comparisons, with other comparisons. But no. Sorry to tell you, i'm not bias. I play actively 5 classes, and when in the past (long long time ago) GWF needed a nerf, i posted in favor of the nerf. Unlike players nowadays who defend broken stuff saying that their class "needs it".
First thing, i didn't "line up" stuff. I COMPARED shift mechanics, i compared damage and powers, o compared mobility. And in the end i said that GWF tools are outdated compared to GF, which is the reason why they perform well only at BiS level. And, while accusing me of being "bias", you guys say the same (GWF more dependent on gear), but then focus on "BiS vs BiS they are close". Too bad what i compare are the tools. My first post was pretty clear, and none of the replies focused on those comparisons. All you focused on was the conclusion on which class is more effective, but while i took into account whole iLvL range, you decide to conveniently focus on "BiS" level only, which is 1% of the players.
Second thing: you guys accuse me of being bias during a discussion where i simply compared tools and facts. You can disagree, as macjae did, and post your comparisons. But instead you decide to go personal. I'd say, as usual. I play multiple classes, in PvP too. I'm actually more active, lately, on my HR in PvP. Funny thing, one of the posters who accuse me of being "bias" face my glass cannon archer on his geared GF, and started attacking and insulting in PM when focused and killed, while his GF was killing everyone with ease. It's funny that a player playing one of the strongest classes in PvP, with both monster damage and survivability and CC, takes the time to get angry and attack a player playing a glass cannon build.
I also advocate for changes to TR. You guys would say i'm bias there too. Too bad i do it because current TR playstyle with passive SoD procs and stuff, is boring. Too easy, too passive. Which is the reason why i'm vocal against SoD. Because i'd like my TR to be more fun to play. I play my GF everyday. It would be weird if i was "bias" against a class i play everyday. But for you guys, it's always bias when someone says your class has some advantage.
You also assume that my idea about GWFs and GFs come from me playing a GWF and not a GF in PvP. Again, wrong. I play way less in PvP with my GWF, as i said, i'm more active with my alts. And my experience comes from facing GWFs and GFs at multiple iLvLs with multiple classes. GF included.
But again, you guys are not interested in a normal discussion. You only want to shut up everyone who posts something you don't like.
Last thing, more interesting: i wrote in multiple posts that "GWF tools are outdated". It's interesting, because you guys too admitted that GWF needs more gear and only talked about BiS. Basically confirming what i wrote. But in the end it's obviously bias. As discussed by the OP, i posted experience on how GF damage interacts with GWF defensive tools. But for you guys, this must be bias.
You guys should grow up and learn from macjae how to discuss matters on a forum. From now on, i'll ignore such posts. Same as i put on ignore the GF that in game was insulting me on my HR via private messages.
We'll talk again when you grow up.
I see that you have a hard time when people do not agree with you and ignoring those that do not agree is a thing for children if you want to go into growing up.
Your examples are bias you refure to building stacks to do damage for Gwf but fail to mention Gf has to do the same, you refure to block being able to soak up more damage then Gwf but fail to mention Gwf being able to soak up more damage once unstoppable compared to Gf without block. In every situation you try to work out a situation where Gwf would have an dissadvantage toward Gfs but you leave out the opposite.
You focus on the absolute strenght of the Gf class and on those situations where Gf is at advantage and compare it with Gwf where they are weakest it is called being bias.
You also leave out i started with you are a nice person and then focus on being insulted where there is no insult my guess is that if some has to grow up and leave out the personal insults and reading insults into a post where there is non its not me in this case.
Just read up through you examples and try to find where you compare Gf and Gwf in a fair way not trying to prove a point = being bias..
That some classes are weaker and some stronger before becomming bis is another matter entirely and has nothing to do with my posts....
We cant put the in same category the gf and gwf stacks. Great weapon fighter destroyer up for 4 seconds and it has chance. destroyer focus after he enter unstopable. that lasts 25 seconds. both need damage dealing. wrathfull determination full value only at the full unstopable.
GF: shield warrior wrath 20% damage if he block 5 attacks (easily can get this every hit count being an enchantment attack or any source of damage). duration 15 seconds and the most important: x5 stack will refresh for the next block again back to 15 sec. reckless attacker by just taking damage dont need block . duration 10 seconds the most important : x5 stack will refresh by taking damage back to 10 seconds.
When a gwf fight a gf is possible gwf to not even go to unstopable! And this because gf blocking the damage make great weapon to deal lesser damage while he gets damage and gets and the shield warrior wrath- and the reckless atttacker.
That detail gives the upperhand to the guardian fighter you cant tell to the great weapon fighter do not attack guardian fighter, because great weapon fighter needs to attack to get his stacks.
And this put any class that need to attack to build stacks-damage bonuses in problem vs a gf.
It's CC+damage always the issue. When in mod3 GWFs could roar+burst, the issue was the mix of the 2.
GFs can have the CC chain combo, but it should not be able to one-ritate enemies. Either way, they can have the high burst, but not together with a full CC rotation.
To be honest, playing HR archer in PvP is something fresh, because for once there's a build that works but that does not allow you to have the best of both worlds (or 3 worlds), which was the mantra back in old modules. You can either tank a lot, deal high burst or CC a lot. You can't have all 3. Or 2 of them.
CC should be a matter of CC builds and classes mainly, in PvP, at the cost of tankiness and damage. And should be an effective tool to support (for example, you CC a powerful enemy to protect your team mates or create an opening for them to focus and kill the guy). DPS classes/builds should deal high burst, similar to current archer HR, but also die quickly when focused, similar to current HR archer. Tank classes should survive a lot but have little to no CC and damage. Then you can create hybrid builds too.
Defensive tools like dodge, shift and shield, should provide noticeable protection if timed right. For example, current GWF could self heal way less, but have Sprint/unstoppable DR on a different layer, to reward the player if he manages to time the shift mechanic with the enemy attack. If a HR,TR,CW,GF,DC exc... time his/her shift mechanic correctly, they are rewarded, usually, with a huge reducion of incoming damage. If an enemy times his attack out of the enemy's shift, he is rewarded with more damage.
People got used a lot to play toons that are both tanky and deal damage, or even survive a lot+deal lots of damage+CC a lot.
Nerfing GF damage will hurt them in Pve, which I wouldn't wish on any class. Nerfing the prone will go a long way towards balance, and not affect their performance in Pve.
GF should't be main DPS in this game, this is not their role.
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feanor70118Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,170Arc User
GF has one of the best prones in the game. GF, self buffed, has the second best burst damage in the game. GF, with shield up, is very tanky. GF is also, because cryptic, one of the fastest movers in the game. GF has all these things in one build, without major sacrifices.
Can you deny any of the above things are true..?
It is the consensus of all the other classes that this is a wee bit too much of an advantage, and the GF class should get a balance pass.
Except 1st all others not true. Self buff have all classes and HR have one of the best with trapper/archery path. Try to shield up while dazing with hr or with smoke bomb or with CB, shield bugged as hell, always drop, visual active but in real its not block, they never gonna fix it. Best movers? its just lol not true. Im for balance, but than balance all others classes. HR dazing/piercing(remove it from game) tr perma stealth/dazing smoke bomb, deflect severity. Soon in new mod im sure many gonna complain about new CW wich gonna SS crit again and idk if still CW ignores 66% of tenacy.
Whiny GFs are priceless. Sure, we simultaneously control players with undodgeable abilities and deal ludicrous amounts of damage, BUT DID YOU KNOW WE AREN'T INVULNERABLE? So you're saying GFs aren't tanky with their shields up. Riiiiiiiiiiiiight. You're saying that GF doesn't have the second-best burst damage in the game? In what world? You're saying that a class that can move fast enough (while sometimes abusing target lock) to keep any other class from getting behind its shield isn't one of the best movers in the game? Riiiiiiiiiiiight.
As I've said in many other threads, there are some easy fixes here: 1) Hard cooldowns on dailies in pvp only. 2) Dodges should dodge both damage and control effects. 3) Elven battle should actually work as advertised and allow other classes to break the one-rotation faceroll wonder kill. 4) Classes in heavy armor should move slower than other classes.
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feanor70118Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,170Arc User
GF has to sacrifice EVERYTHING unlike most classes to do the damage it can just to be viable in PvP. You have to sacrifice everything survivability wise and go straight damage. You can't move like a Sword-master if you want to do maximum damage so you lose mobility, you can't be as tanky as a Protector, so you lose survivability you have very long cool-downs, no temp hp like a paladin, no 360 CC resistant shield like a paladin, our shields can be flanked very easily unlike a Oath bound Paladins Sanctuary, DPS GF's are one of the squishiest types of classes in PvP. (unlike the DPS)
Actual Facts:
-GF with shield up is decently tanky at best. Very tanky is not true. (SoD, HR Piercing Damage, GWF's Atwills, CW Ray of Enfeeblement+ Disintegrate aren't even all of the examples I can give to show you how "tanky" a GF is with shield up.) You get shredded even with it up.
Only if by "Shredded" you mean "occasionally take about 30% HP damage, which class abilities restore almost immediately.
-Bull Charge is nice prone yes, but HR's have Boar Charge too which prones longer than GF Bull Charge. TR's Hateful Knifes lasts waaaay longer than Bull Charge, and CW's Ice Storm lasts way more than a Bull Charge. I'm not going to continue this list because I'd be here for awhile.
The idea that Boar Charge prones longer than Bull Charge is completely hilarious. Boar Charge freezes the HR for a second at the end of the animation, which is often longer than it prones the target. It's a near-useless ability, which HRs use because they have so few useful abilities.
-GF already received a rework in MOD 10 Which destroyed (Knights Challenge, Combat Superiority, Bull Charge, Into The Fray, Tide of Iron, Enforced Threat, Lunging Strike, Commanders Strike, Villains Menace, Nerfed the AP gain from Crushing Surge, Anvil of Doom). Or did people forget??
And yet the class still does ludicrous damage while simultaneously doing effective control.
-Lets not forget GF shield still doesn't work, and that after you are prone or CC'd at all their is a huge time frame where GF shield isn't up. (When it's supposed to).
I don't have any idea what you mean when you say it doesn't work. Plainly it does. And by 'huge time frame' you appear to mean about 1/4 second.
So yeah, it shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone if it has no tanking abilities. It's an Off Tank, Tanking Qualities, but makes up for everything it loses which is A LOT and turns it into either self buffs, or damage. GF is not a Paladin. It's a Melee Fighter that is a Buffer. Melee= More Damage than Range.
I'm sorry you don't know what your class' tanking abilities are, but I promise you that with a little reading you can find them.
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feanor70118Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,170Arc User
GF has to sacrifice EVERYTHING unlike most classes to do the damage it can just to be viable in PvP. You have to sacrifice everything survivability wise and go straight damage. You can't move like a Sword-master if you want to do maximum damage so you lose mobility, you can't be as tanky as a Protector, so you lose survivability you have very long cool-downs, no temp hp like a paladin, no 360 CC resistant shield like a paladin, our shields can be flanked very easily unlike a Oath bound Paladins Sanctuary, DPS GF's are one of the squishiest types of classes in PvP. (unlike the DPS)
Nothing about that paragraph is true. You obviously aren't very good at building your toon.
-GF with shield up is decently tanky at best. Very tanky is not true. (SoD, HR Piercing Damage, GWF's Atwills, CW Ray of Enfeeblement+ Disintegrate aren't even all of the examples I can give to show you how "tanky" a GF is with shield up.) You get shredded even with it up.
Sure, if by "shredded" you mean "occasionally take some damage." As for SoD, we all know it's broken. TRs respond to that complaint about the same way GFs respond to any complaint about the pile of unfair advantages their class has.
-Bull Charge is nice prone yes, but HR's have Boar Charge too which prones longer than GF Bull Charge. TR's Hateful Knifes lasts waaaay longer than Bull Charge, and CW's Ice Storm lasts way more than a Bull Charge. I'm not going to continue this list because I'd be here for awhile.
Boar Charge is a near-useless ability that freezes the user at the end of the animation for, most of the time, longer than it prones the target. HRs only use it because they have so few abilities that are of any use at all. So no, that isn't an actual fact. The issue with Bull Charge, as you well know, is that it's part of the One Rotation Faceroll Wonder Kill.
-GF already received a rework in MOD 10 Which destroyed (Knights Challenge, Combat Superiority, Bull Charge, Into The Fray, Tide of Iron, Enforced Threat, Lunging Strike, Commanders Strike, Villains Menace, Nerfed the AP gain from Crushing Surge, Anvil of Doom). Or did people forget??
No one forgot. We all noticed that the nerf had no real effect in pvp.
-Lets not forget GF shield still doesn't work, and that after you are prone or CC'd at all their is a huge time frame where GF shield isn't up. (When it's supposed to).
No one knows what you mean when you say the shield doesn't work. Plainly, it does. And I have no sympathy for the class not being invulnerable after being knocked over.
So yeah, it shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone if it has no tanking abilities. It's an Off Tank, Tanking Qualities, but makes up for everything it loses which is A LOT and turns it into either self buffs, or damage. GF is not a Paladin. It's a Melee Fighter that is a Buffer. Melee= More Damage than Range.
1) I promise you, the class has tanking abilities. I'm sorry you haven't discovered them, but fortunately you can ask on the class forums. 2) There is no reason at all for melee classes to do more damage than ranged ones.
What are people going to say next, nerf the weapon damage? good luck holding agro anymore in PvE, and doing any damage at all. Want to go back to mod 5?
Well, in mod 5 we had dungeon delves, more or less enjoyable and balanced pvp (except for TR being broken, which it has been ever since then), and none of the pointless mod 6 power and HP creep, so yeah, actually, that would be nice.
GF has to sacrifice EVERYTHING unlike most classes to do the damage it can just to be viable in PvP. You have to sacrifice everything survivability wise and go straight damage. You can't move like a Sword-master if you want to do maximum damage so you lose mobility, you can't be as tanky as a Protector, so you lose survivability you have very long cool-downs, no temp hp like a paladin, no 360 CC resistant shield like a paladin, our shields can be flanked very easily unlike a Oath bound Paladins Sanctuary, DPS GF's are one of the squishiest types of classes in PvP. (unlike the DPS)
Nothing about that paragraph is true. You obviously aren't very good at building your toon.
-GF with shield up is decently tanky at best. Very tanky is not true. (SoD, HR Piercing Damage, GWF's Atwills, CW Ray of Enfeeblement+ Disintegrate aren't even all of the examples I can give to show you how "tanky" a GF is with shield up.) You get shredded even with it up.
Sure, if by "shredded" you mean "occasionally take some damage." As for SoD, we all know it's broken. TRs respond to that complaint about the same way GFs respond to any complaint about the pile of unfair advantages their class has.
-Bull Charge is nice prone yes, but HR's have Boar Charge too which prones longer than GF Bull Charge. TR's Hateful Knifes lasts waaaay longer than Bull Charge, and CW's Ice Storm lasts way more than a Bull Charge. I'm not going to continue this list because I'd be here for awhile.
Boar Charge is a near-useless ability that freezes the user at the end of the animation for, most of the time, longer than it prones the target. HRs only use it because they have so few abilities that are of any use at all. So no, that isn't an actual fact. The issue with Bull Charge, as you well know, is that it's part of the One Rotation Faceroll Wonder Kill.
-GF already received a rework in MOD 10 Which destroyed (Knights Challenge, Combat Superiority, Bull Charge, Into The Fray, Tide of Iron, Enforced Threat, Lunging Strike, Commanders Strike, Villains Menace, Nerfed the AP gain from Crushing Surge, Anvil of Doom). Or did people forget??
No one forgot. We all noticed that the nerf had no real effect in pvp.
-Lets not forget GF shield still doesn't work, and that after you are prone or CC'd at all their is a huge time frame where GF shield isn't up. (When it's supposed to).
No one knows what you mean when you say the shield doesn't work. Plainly, it does. And I have no sympathy for the class not being invulnerable after being knocked over.
So yeah, it shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone if it has no tanking abilities. It's an Off Tank, Tanking Qualities, but makes up for everything it loses which is A LOT and turns it into either self buffs, or damage. GF is not a Paladin. It's a Melee Fighter that is a Buffer. Melee= More Damage than Range.
1) I promise you, the class has tanking abilities. I'm sorry you haven't discovered them, but fortunately you can ask on the class forums. 2) There is no reason at all for melee classes to do more damage than ranged ones.
What are people going to say next, nerf the weapon damage? good luck holding agro anymore in PvE, and doing any damage at all. Want to go back to mod 5?
Well, in mod 5 we had dungeon delves, more or less enjoyable and balanced pvp (except for TR being broken, which it has been ever since then), and none of the pointless mod 6 power and HP creep, so yeah, actually, that would be nice.
1. Clearly you've never seen my gameplay. Sheep are sheep as usual. I don't expect you to understand.
2. No. If you ever played a GF, you'd know exactly what I am talking about, not just TR's. Marks casting time depending on how much you have to move means that during that small frame you can hit the GF with full damage as the back/ sides are exposed. If you've ever faced TR's, GWF's, Combat/Archery HR's, and even other GF's you'd KNOW exactly what i'm talking about. Your shield helps obviously but it is not the god tier protection everyone on here thinks.
3. You can animation cancel Boar Charge at the end by dodging. Clearly you don't know how to use it correctly because you can decimate who ever has been hit by it recently cannot hit their defensive ability and is still considered prone. This just like Bull Charge, can be used in conjunction with your other moves and team to kill an enemy.
5. Clearly they did. Clearly a lot of people forgot. Everyone focuses on what the GF is strong at but not what it lost. GF's back then we're dumb OP because of the fray defense scaling. Don't blame the class for power-creep issues. Their is a huge difference from old weapons and new ones. I don't care what argument or how many times to the Moon you say it. Take the Water Weapons on a GF v the Titan Steel Weapons. Huge difference.
6. No one said OP is ludicrously "Overpowered" What I did say though is the advantages and differences from the OP v GF and in tank builds such as Protector path and moves like Iron Warrior, do need a buff and updates. This goes with every class though. Every class needs an update to feats and powers as some of them for all classes are just useless and aren't picked on purpose. They are either forced to pick it out of having no choice to go to the capstone, or can't pick anything else because they have spare feat points.
7. If you do not know what I'm talking about (clearly you haven't PvP'd at all) but refer to point 3 where I mentioned "you can decimate who ever has been hit by it recently cannot hit their defensive ability and is still considered prone." All prone moves in this game do the same thing after you clearly see yourself get up, you cannot hit your sprint, dodge, or block mechanic.
8. 1. Should of rephrased what I said. Yes the class has tanking abilities but due to the limited number of how many there are on the class, especially when compared to the OP it's as an off tank. Can it be used as a Tank? Yes. But OP does a much better job. That cannot be argued. 2. Yes there's a reason why Melee Classes do more damage and should do more damage for the simple fact you are risking a lot more survivability and putting yourself in harms way a lot more than a ranged character is. On top of that, it is much harder to land a successful melee hit than a ranged hit.
2) There is no reason at all for melee classes to do more damage than ranged ones.I
There is several reasons for melee doing higher damage then ranged classes.
Range classes can start doing damage earlier from distance and as long as they can keep the distance they can deliver damage making considerable more damge over time then somebody that has to be up close to do damage.
Melee damage is always at dissadvantage in pvp toward ranged classes. Now hp defence and healing can offset some of that damage but look at Hr class combat path you have a good example on a melee depending set up that do not work because they do to little damage with to little survivability.
Melee depends on high burst toward ranged classer or/and a good cc:s.
If you you mean range do not have burst damage and melee does and over time they do the same damage it might be the case but I hardly think that is something range wants as burst is the best option in almost any pvp.
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feanor70118Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,170Arc User
3. You can animation cancel Boar Charge at the end by dodging. Clearly you don't know how to use it correctly because you can decimate who ever has been hit by it recently cannot hit their defensive ability and is still considered prone. This just like Bull Charge, can be used in conjunction with your other moves and team to kill an enemy.
Yeah, I dodged at the end every time I used it when I was playing a combat build, but animation canceling doesn't work as well for HR as it does for other classes. Also, animation canceling should be coded out of the game, but that's a whole other discussion.
Apart from xboxclips being buggy and not showing the whole video, I can see what you're complaining about there, but that's probably a description issue, i.e. what Cryptic means by 'disabling abilities' isn't what we mean by them. Anyhow, Disruptive Shot doesn't do a heck of a lot for non-trapper builds. I constantly see it fail to have any effect whatsoever.
2. Yes there's a reason why Melee Classes do more damage and should do more damage for the simple fact you are risking a lot more survivability and putting yourself in harms way a lot more than a ranged character is. On top of that, it is much harder to land a successful melee hit than a ranged hit.
None of that amounts to a logical reason why a melee attack should do more damage than a ranged one. There's a reason why the longbow was the dominant weapon of its age and allowed a small group of archers to slaughter the gathered might of France at Crecy, or why Mongol horseback archers conquered most of the world. I don't see the melee classes in Neverwinter giving up anything that they should in pvp (mobility, for instance) in return for the enormous damage they do and their other survivability advantages. And in Neverwinter, there really aren't many melee abilities that miss. GWFs hit blindly even in the total absence of any sprite-to-sprite collision. You can miss with TR at-wills if you try really hard.
Which is why it's completely fair to keep picking them off from a distance. I think the current model of pvp with everyone fighting on a node has been boring for a long time. It shouldn't be easy to stand on a node and survive when someone's aiming an arrow or a spell at your face. If melee classes sometimes have to start running away (which is what GWFS do most of the time anyway with Sprint, which is an abomination), that just makes the game more interesting.
It's not melee damage vs ranged damage. They can deal the same damage. But melee classes simply must tank more than a glass cannon ranged DPS. If the ranged DPS (for example, my archer HR) takes away 80% of my HP before i reach him, i should then be able to take away the same amount of HPs if i hit him in melee range. It's called balance. So it's more like "a high burst ranged DPS toon must be more squishy than a melee DPS toon". Reason being, one is ranged and hits from safety, the other needs to eat damage before he gets in melee range.
Melee abilities that miss: IBS, Restoring Strike (which nobody uses in PvP anymore), takedown (no used anymore), even sure strike, all you need to do is bunnyhop non-stop. Sure strike roots the GWF in place. High mobility and a couple of jumps, and you're out of melee range. It's more like "there are plenty melee powers of GF and GWFs that can easily miss, which is why nobody uses them in PvP. Players go for maximum efficiency. Ranged powers, on the other hand, all come with assisted aiming. They can be dodged or the enemy can get out of range, but you can't miss the target just because it's moving or bunnyhopping.
I do agree that PvP is not only for on-node fighters. The devs put pillars and upper parts of the map, for a reason. For ranged classes to play support. You must then balance your time off-node and on-node. Yesterday i was playing HR archer in PvP, for example, and ended up with macjae in multiple matches. I tried to mix ranged DPS from off node/pillars, with time on node to contest/ cap. In one match i realized too late that i should have focused the enemy OP, while instead i kept trying to take down the enemy DPS classes. In another match a SW jumped on another pillar to attack me while i was taking down some of his team mates. If a enemy is capping, some classes/builds can jump on node and contest, while others might simply be enough of a threat when shooting/CCing from off-node, that the enemy is forced to leave the node and go after them.
Let's say strategies other than node fighting might have more room in PvP. One being ranged support builds that can damage/CC your team a lot if let alone. Teams would be forced to keep an eye on pillars, and would add another layer of strategy to domination, other than the usual node-capping. The devs already did a good change, in my opinion, when they changed the rule to node-capping. It made the ability to just stand on a node and survive, without killing, more useful. Before that, a tank would be less useful, because standing on a node with another enemy, would just make it "contested" and give no points. Now it's important to run on a node that is being capped and just protect it. Or, if you're a ranged support, get there and kill the capper or force the enemy to jump off-node to chase you.
Its such a detriment to neverwinter pvp from anyone defending the balance of ENDGAME GF TR OP GWF compared to the rest of the classes which happen to be ranged , because ranged cant fight on nodes without getting blown up in seconds the win rates from the melee classes are far and above ranged, GFs for example must be the most skilled players in the game because I have over a hundred games of played and there win and K/d rates is amazing most times any gf over 13k is usually 10-2, 7-0. Xbox pvp is all about the SS right now stealth and shields the god damn third reich of neverwinter
The Xbox players that are posting in this thread that play TR OP and GF have some of the most lopsided K/d rates. Do you ever think hey maybe its not that good for the game that I can tank three players and systematically kill them one by one or I can keep the team occupied by staying in stealth and waiting for SOD. Do you ever stop and think maybe going 20-0 isn't the best thing for this game and maybe my class is a little out of balance, or maybe you guys are just that good
The Xbox players that are posting in this thread that play TR OP and GF have some of the most lopsided K/d rates. Do you ever think hey maybe its not that good for the game that I can tank three players and systematically kill them one by one or I can keep the team occupied by staying in stealth and waiting for SOD. Do you ever stop and think maybe going 20-0 isn't the best thing for this game and maybe my class is a little out of balance, or maybe you guys are just that good
no, they are thinking they are a skiled player like this dude---> ShockWave who are just using daily and waiting for 150k SoD and saying that every class is broken expect of his. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7K7lUUJi0&t=348s
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As usal yes and no. Pando you are a nice person but in this you bias is shining through as you only look at it from one side of the storry.
Gf while blocking eat more damage sure but Gwf takes tons of more damage compared to a non blocking GF. Gf still cant do damage without letting block down and once cced Gf is quite easy to kill while Gwf well geared most certianly are not.
In Mod12b, with the self-healing reductions, GWFs go down way faster in my experience, since their survivability came mainly from self heals, while i noticed that unless they get ganged up by multiple enemies, GFs can survive a bit more. Also, most GFs i meet play in a very straight forward and predictable way: turtle, pop ITF and the go straight for bullcharge. More experienced ones pop ITF and fake bullcharge at least one time, using it when the GWF stops sprinting.
Mod 12(including 12b) did not hurt Gwf as much as Gf(and most others exluding Pal and some Cw) mainly because of 2 reasons. 1 Gwf has much faster and harder hitting at wills making tons of damage with good lifesteal return while Gf only makes few attacks between blocking. Gwf still has a good return from lifesteal while it is more or less waste on a Gf and 2 piercing damage which was the main danger for Gwf is severly cut down in total even counting in SoD. Before Gwf died from exe and Hr now they can at least run away from Tr and will surive first round of SoD while before exe was instant death.
But in a 1v1 fight on a node, GWF vs GF, the GWF has to work way more and is at a little disadvantage. Mainly because, as i mentioned, the defensive tools of GWFs get "pierced" and mitigate less damage than a GF shield. Also the self buffs on GWF take longer/ more sacrifice to build up (take damage, go unstoppable exc...+ destroyer stacks on single target being a % chance to proc).
Work more is not as same as difficult it is not a good argument as this is not a very advanced game when it come to combat. If you would go into lagg and ping playing very far from servers timing can be harder for some but thats about it.
As long as Gf goes down while cought out of blocking and Gwf has unstoppable and can run away Gwf has the upper hand when it comes to being able to survive in pvp atm.
Gwf and Gf is today pretty much even at bis lvl Gf a bit better if low geared but I would say once bis GWF has the upper hand which also can be seen on the leaderboard if you compare best Gwf against best Gf.
You need to stop lining up every single advantage for Gf against every single weakness for Gwfs when you compare if you want to have some serious discussion otherwise it just becomes finger pointing leaving out all of the facts.
Pvp atm is so dominated by Trs that the rest is just filler ups. If you have 2 deacent Tr on your team and the other team has non you already won the game 9/10 times.
Every match has at the very least 2 tr most of the matches has 3-4 or when people get kicked 5.
As it is now (and as it looks now Tr GETS BUFFED IN MOD 13!!!!!!!!!!!!) if nothing changes pvp is dead to all but some Trs that can run around more or less immortal with godly damage that can not be avoided and if you are a Gf Gwf or whatever it wont matter much as you will be hitting air and die to some damage you cant see or avoid any way .....
Our itc is broken. It doesn't always proc.
It's not ok for a tr to 1 hit kill you with only lashing blade using first strike + buffs doing 100k damage in stealth but it's ok for a gf to 1 hit kill you with marking + pally buffs and anvil doing 100K+ damage ?
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2 You get hit from buffed SoD you die without seeing where it came from no chanse to dodge no deflect can save you and the damage is unresistable so even 1000% resist will not save you immunity will not save you YOU DIE.
100k hit buffed is doeble by pal gf gwf cw tr and even archery Hr in todays pvp is it to much maby maby not but that is NOT the issue only Tr damage can NOT be dodged deflected resisted in any way but going invisible and is most of the time delivered by a sourse you can not even see is that to much the answer is YES IT IS.
If you can not see the differance here I suggest this set up a fight between a good 14k + Tr against all other classes same geared and see what happens in 1-1 then put up 2 non Tr against same Tr followed up by 2 Tr against 1 of any other class and then count the number of wins for Trs compared to other classes after that I am pretty sure you will not come back here with your current arguments in fact am sure of it....
First thing, i didn't "line up" stuff. I COMPARED shift mechanics, i compared damage and powers, o compared mobility. And in the end i said that GWF tools are outdated compared to GF, which is the reason why they perform well only at BiS level. And, while accusing me of being "bias", you guys say the same (GWF more dependent on gear), but then focus on "BiS vs BiS they are close". Too bad what i compare are the tools. My first post was pretty clear, and none of the replies focused on those comparisons. All you focused on was the conclusion on which class is more effective, but while i took into account whole iLvL range, you decide to conveniently focus on "BiS" level only, which is 1% of the players.
Second thing: you guys accuse me of being bias during a discussion where i simply compared tools and facts. You can disagree, as macjae did, and post your comparisons. But instead you decide to go personal. I'd say, as usual.
I play multiple classes, in PvP too. I'm actually more active, lately, on my HR in PvP. Funny thing, one of the posters who accuse me of being "bias" face my glass cannon archer on his geared GF, and started attacking and insulting in PM when focused and killed, while his GF was killing everyone with ease. It's funny that a player playing one of the strongest classes in PvP, with both monster damage and survivability and CC, takes the time to get angry and attack a player playing a glass cannon build.
I also advocate for changes to TR. You guys would say i'm bias there too. Too bad i do it because current TR playstyle with passive SoD procs and stuff, is boring. Too easy, too passive. Which is the reason why i'm vocal against SoD. Because i'd like my TR to be more fun to play.
I play my GF everyday. It would be weird if i was "bias" against a class i play everyday. But for you guys, it's always bias when someone says your class has some advantage.
You also assume that my idea about GWFs and GFs come from me playing a GWF and not a GF in PvP. Again, wrong. I play way less in PvP with my GWF, as i said, i'm more active with my alts. And my experience comes from facing GWFs and GFs at multiple iLvLs with multiple classes. GF included.
But again, you guys are not interested in a normal discussion. You only want to shut up everyone who posts something you don't like.
Last thing, more interesting: i wrote in multiple posts that "GWF tools are outdated". It's interesting, because you guys too admitted that GWF needs more gear and only talked about BiS. Basically confirming what i wrote. But in the end it's obviously bias. As discussed by the OP, i posted experience on how GF damage interacts with GWF defensive tools. But for you guys, this must be bias.
You guys should grow up and learn from macjae how to discuss matters on a forum.
From now on, i'll ignore such posts. Same as i put on ignore the GF that in game was insulting me on my HR via private messages.
We'll talk again when you grow up.
Your examples are bias you refure to building stacks to do damage for Gwf but fail to mention Gf has to do the same, you refure to block being able to soak up more damage then Gwf but fail to mention Gwf being able to soak up more damage once unstoppable compared to Gf without block. In every situation you try to work out a situation where Gwf would have an dissadvantage toward Gfs but you leave out the opposite.
You focus on the absolute strenght of the Gf class and on those situations where Gf is at advantage and compare it with Gwf where they are weakest it is called being bias.
You also leave out i started with you are a nice person and then focus on being insulted where there is no insult my guess is that if some has to grow up and leave out the personal insults and reading insults into a post where there is non its not me in this case.
Just read up through you examples and try to find where you compare Gf and Gwf in a fair way not trying to prove a point = being bias..
That some classes are weaker and some stronger before becomming bis is another matter entirely and has nothing to do with my posts....
2)I mentioned how GFs build stacks, i also said it's faster and easier/ costs less for GF to build stacks compared to GWF. I also explained why. You just need to READ. So your 2nd point is BS too.
3)I compared block to sprint because they are both shift mechanics. I also mentioned that in my experience, unstoppable does not mitigate much damage since, i'd say, module 4, and i also mentioned how usntoppable temp HPs are halved in PvP. I also mentioned how my post comes from playing both the classes mentioned and AGAINST the mentioned classes in PvP.
I have covered all the aspects in my posts, but may be you have a hard time reading.
4)I mentioned where GF is at a disadvantage (group fights) and agreed with macjae that GF lacks the sprint to run away. Before mac posted, i already wrote about how TRs die less compared to GF because they can escape easily. But i also mentioned how sprint does not always grant GWFs an easy escape, since ranged damage from pretty much all ranged classes deals noticeable damage even through sprint.
5)I wrote A LOT about all the mechanics involved in GWFvs GF, and about the multiple tactics GWFs can use to damage/ kill the GF. But again, may be you suffer from selective reading. Go back and try to read again. You know, all that part where i wrote about sprinting away, about waiting for the GF to drop shield to daily+IBS, about using FS to CC the GF when he drops the shield, and so on. Also the part where i clearly stated "TRs dominate GWFs. GWF vs GF is still a fight exc...".
So your other points too, i can sum it up with a :"sorry pando, i didn't even read your posts, and now you have to re-post point by point to debunk all my BS".
In the end, not a single thing you wrote about my posts is right. More like you ignored most of the stuff i wrote just to prove your "point" about me being "bias". You're embarassing yourself, and honestly, i am not a charity, so if you can't read, i won't keep re-posting the stuff i wrote, just to have you ignoring it again on your next post.
Try to focus more on what is written and less on personal attacks. Calling a player bias to invalidate his posts, instead of answering point by point, is a personal attack. It's something i've seen many times in these years. Most people do not reply about the subject. They prefer to ignore everything and just try to discredit the player who posted. Just like you did.
It does not matter if YOUR post was not about how classes scale with gear. My post was about:
1) how damage from GF interacts with GWF defensive tools, to answer the OP
2) how those tools are outdated, with proof being how GWF efficiency scales with gear. On a side note, other experienced players already mentioned, multiple times, how GWF tools are outdated. Expecially sprint.
You REPLIED TO MY POST. So, by logic, it's you who must talk about the matter that was discussed in said post. Instead you shifted the matter on how 1v1 is at BiS level, and then complain if i don't follow your change of matter.
Also: to be "bias" it means i try to favor one class over another. Too bad, as i mentioned, that i play all 5 classes of my alts, i develop all of them, i build boons for all of them, i even left behind my GWF chult campaign to work on my HR,SW,DC,GF and TR. And expecially on the GF, buying companions, mounts, insignia, exc...which costs quite a bit.
Sorry to tell you this dude, but all that bias stuff is in your mind only, because, for the 10th time, i play all the above classes every day i can play, and develop all of them, often leaving my GWF behind.
Now you can go on with this bias stuff and look like a clown, or understand that i'm simply discussing my point of view on the class mentioned by the OP, based on my experience on all the 5 classes i play, as i already mentioned in the previous post (but you ignored this simple fact that i play GF and spend a lot of ADs to develop it, since at least 2 modules.
Now you can discuss bringing your experience/ knowledge, or you can keep repeating your "bias" mantra. Your choice.
I will correct myself however. You don't need to grow up. You probably just need to learn how to read...
Want to see 1v1 of BiS GF vs CW, SW, DPS-DC, HR equally skilled. Showing GF vs OP or GWF just shows clash of overpowered classes. Buffing other classes will come if overpowered ones are unwilling to take nerf...return of the ray of death CW or similar powers for SW, DC, HR...tables will turn and QQ will start against death rays CW. Then CWs will also post videos against OP and say "see? we have death ray but we are still killed easily". Not a great way t illustrate point...
I play Hr, Sw, Pal, Gf, Gwf myself played since beta but that is beside the point.
You use personal insults trying to misscredit somebody (several in earlier posts) because somebody says you are bias?
You obviously see ghost where there is non and are both overreacting and namecalling in such a way somebody that lost all valid argument does.
Your argument about playing different classes trying to sound missunderstod has nothing to do with the issue at hand and deflecting and insulting will not make it more so.
Just a piece of advice most people writing dont care about you as a person but the topic at hand so in future leave your personal ego issues out of it nobody is interested if you think other are clowns or if YOU think their argument is based on feelings mkay...
Facts are those posted in my post you quoted above. Your first statement of your last post, instead, has no facts in it. You completely ignored all the points and all the facts i posted. Good job :'D
I didn't insult anyone. I told you that posting ignoring what the other person writes, makes you look like a clown. An example:
In points 1 to 5 of the post i quoted, i underlined all the comparisons i made, the fact i talked about GF weak points, and the fact i extensively talked about GWF tactics to beat GFs.
Those points are FACTS. Things i wrote.
And you replied with NO FACTS. You simply repeated, like a mantra "you wanted to prove GF>GWF, you are bias", aven though the points 1 to 5 of the post you quoted, prove that it's not like that at all.
If you want, i can tell you that such behaviour makes you look smart.
Also, i didn't say i was "misunderstood". What i wrote is pretty clear. I said you do not read at all even the posts you quote. And your last post is a good enough proof of this.
Your last statement is also funny. Before you guys started calling me "bias", i was discussing mechanics and the discussion was free from any personal attack. Then YOU started talking about about me (pando you're a good guy, but you're bias) instead of simply discussing the points like macjae did.
Sorry dude. Posts are there. Won't waste more time re-posting the same stuff again and again, just to see you ignore it.
Have fun, see you in game.
You are right, courage breaker doesn't reduce the target's attack damage by the 120% stated on the tooltip. @rustlord, a good PVP WK TR, did some testing on it several months ago and found that CB's debuff is actually 54.54%.
Nowadays, I treat CB like the debuff isn't even there when I PVP. The only time I ever use CB specifically for its debuff is to try to help PVE groups that are taking too much damage.
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC
¨˜ˆ”°¹~•-.„¸ρℓαуιиg иєνєяωιитєя ѕιи¢є 2015¸„.-•~¹°”ˆ˜¨
Great weapon fighter destroyer up for 4 seconds and it has chance.
destroyer focus after he enter unstopable. that lasts 25 seconds.
both need damage dealing.
wrathfull determination full value only at the full unstopable.
GF:
shield warrior wrath 20% damage if he block 5 attacks (easily can get this every hit count being an enchantment attack or any source of damage). duration 15 seconds and the most important: x5 stack will refresh for the next block again back to 15 sec.
reckless attacker by just taking damage dont need block . duration 10 seconds the most important : x5 stack will refresh by taking damage back to 10 seconds.
When a gwf fight a gf is possible gwf to not even go to unstopable! And this because gf blocking the damage make great weapon to deal lesser damage while he gets damage and gets and the shield warrior wrath- and the reckless atttacker.
That detail gives the upperhand to the guardian fighter you cant tell to the great weapon fighter do not attack guardian fighter,
because great weapon fighter needs to attack to get his stacks.
And this put any class that need to attack to build stacks-damage bonuses in problem vs a gf.
GFs can have the CC chain combo, but it should not be able to one-ritate enemies. Either way, they can have the high burst, but not together with a full CC rotation.
To be honest, playing HR archer in PvP is something fresh, because for once there's a build that works but that does not allow you to have the best of both worlds (or 3 worlds), which was the mantra back in old modules. You can either tank a lot, deal high burst or CC a lot. You can't have all 3. Or 2 of them.
CC should be a matter of CC builds and classes mainly, in PvP, at the cost of tankiness and damage. And should be an effective tool to support (for example, you CC a powerful enemy to protect your team mates or create an opening for them to focus and kill the guy).
DPS classes/builds should deal high burst, similar to current archer HR, but also die quickly when focused, similar to current HR archer.
Tank classes should survive a lot but have little to no CC and damage.
Then you can create hybrid builds too.
Defensive tools like dodge, shift and shield, should provide noticeable protection if timed right. For example, current GWF could self heal way less, but have Sprint/unstoppable DR on a different layer, to reward the player if he manages to time the shift mechanic with the enemy attack.
If a HR,TR,CW,GF,DC exc... time his/her shift mechanic correctly, they are rewarded, usually, with a huge reducion of incoming damage. If an enemy times his attack out of the enemy's shift, he is rewarded with more damage.
People got used a lot to play toons that are both tanky and deal damage, or even survive a lot+deal lots of damage+CC a lot.
It's wrong.
Sure, we simultaneously control players with undodgeable abilities and deal ludicrous amounts of damage, BUT DID YOU KNOW WE AREN'T INVULNERABLE? So you're saying GFs aren't tanky with their shields up. Riiiiiiiiiiiiight. You're saying that GF doesn't have the second-best burst damage in the game? In what world? You're saying that a class that can move fast enough (while sometimes abusing target lock) to keep any other class from getting behind its shield isn't one of the best movers in the game? Riiiiiiiiiiiight.
As I've said in many other threads, there are some easy fixes here:
1) Hard cooldowns on dailies in pvp only.
2) Dodges should dodge both damage and control effects.
3) Elven battle should actually work as advertised and allow other classes to break the one-rotation faceroll wonder kill.
4) Classes in heavy armor should move slower than other classes.
No one forgot. We all noticed that the nerf had no real effect in pvp. If you're saying that paladins are ludicrously overpowered and all class' feat paths should be made viable, I agree with you.
No one knows what you mean when you say the shield doesn't work. Plainly, it does. And I have no sympathy for the class not being invulnerable after being knocked over. 1) I promise you, the class has tanking abilities. I'm sorry you haven't discovered them, but fortunately you can ask on the class forums.
2) There is no reason at all for melee classes to do more damage than ranged ones. Well, in mod 5 we had dungeon delves, more or less enjoyable and balanced pvp (except for TR being broken, which it has been ever since then), and none of the pointless mod 6 power and HP creep, so yeah, actually, that would be nice.
2. No. If you ever played a GF, you'd know exactly what I am talking about, not just TR's. Marks casting time depending on how much you have to move means that during that small frame you can hit the GF with full damage as the back/ sides are exposed. If you've ever faced TR's, GWF's, Combat/Archery HR's, and even other GF's you'd KNOW exactly what i'm talking about. Your shield helps obviously but it is not the god tier protection everyone on here thinks.
3. You can animation cancel Boar Charge at the end by dodging. Clearly you don't know how to use it correctly because you can decimate who ever has been hit by it recently cannot hit their defensive ability and is still considered prone. This just like Bull Charge, can be used in conjunction with your other moves and team to kill an enemy.
4. https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1237643/villains-menace-shield-and-cc-immunity-stacks-not-working
5. Clearly they did. Clearly a lot of people forgot. Everyone focuses on what the GF is strong at but not what it lost. GF's back then we're dumb OP because of the fray defense scaling. Don't blame the class for power-creep issues. Their is a huge difference from old weapons and new ones. I don't care what argument or how many times to the Moon you say it. Take the Water Weapons on a GF v the Titan Steel Weapons. Huge difference.
6. No one said OP is ludicrously "Overpowered" What I did say though is the advantages and differences from the OP v GF and in tank builds such as Protector path and moves like Iron Warrior, do need a buff and updates. This goes with every class though. Every class needs an update to feats and powers as some of them for all classes are just useless and aren't picked on purpose. They are either forced to pick it out of having no choice to go to the capstone, or can't pick anything else because they have spare feat points.
7. If you do not know what I'm talking about (clearly you haven't PvP'd at all) but refer to point 3 where I mentioned "you can decimate who ever has been hit by it recently cannot hit their defensive ability and is still considered prone." All prone moves in this game do the same thing after you clearly see yourself get up, you cannot hit your sprint, dodge, or block mechanic.
8. 1. Should of rephrased what I said. Yes the class has tanking abilities but due to the limited number of how many there are on the class, especially when compared to the OP it's as an off tank. Can it be used as a Tank? Yes. But OP does a much better job. That cannot be argued.
2. Yes there's a reason why Melee Classes do more damage and should do more damage for the simple fact you are risking a lot more survivability and putting yourself in harms way a lot more than a ranged character is. On top of that, it is much harder to land a successful melee hit than a ranged hit.
9. I respect your opinion.
Guardian Fighter
TLO
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1221446/the-future-of-the-gf/p1 Existing Problems Still In The Guardian Fighter
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/comment/12984912m
Feat Changes I'd like to see in The Guardian Fighter
There is several reasons for melee doing higher damage then ranged classes.
Range classes can start doing damage earlier from distance and as long as they can keep the distance they can deliver damage making considerable more damge over time then somebody that has to be up close to do damage.
Melee damage is always at dissadvantage in pvp toward ranged classes.
Now hp defence and healing can offset some of that damage but look at Hr class combat path you have a good example on a melee depending set up that do not work because they do to little damage with to little survivability.
Melee depends on high burst toward ranged classer or/and a good cc:s.
If you you mean range do not have burst damage and melee does and over time they do the same damage it might be the case but I hardly think that is something range wants as burst is the best option in almost any pvp.
Which is why it's completely fair to keep picking them off from a distance. I think the current model of pvp with everyone fighting on a node has been boring for a long time. It shouldn't be easy to stand on a node and survive when someone's aiming an arrow or a spell at your face. If melee classes sometimes have to start running away (which is what GWFS do most of the time anyway with Sprint, which is an abomination), that just makes the game more interesting.
Melee abilities that miss: IBS, Restoring Strike (which nobody uses in PvP anymore), takedown (no used anymore), even sure strike, all you need to do is bunnyhop non-stop. Sure strike roots the GWF in place. High mobility and a couple of jumps, and you're out of melee range. It's more like "there are plenty melee powers of GF and GWFs that can easily miss, which is why nobody uses them in PvP. Players go for maximum efficiency. Ranged powers, on the other hand, all come with assisted aiming. They can be dodged or the enemy can get out of range, but you can't miss the target just because it's moving or bunnyhopping.
I do agree that PvP is not only for on-node fighters. The devs put pillars and upper parts of the map, for a reason. For ranged classes to play support. You must then balance your time off-node and on-node. Yesterday i was playing HR archer in PvP, for example, and ended up with macjae in multiple matches. I tried to mix ranged DPS from off node/pillars, with time on node to contest/ cap. In one match i realized too late that i should have focused the enemy OP, while instead i kept trying to take down the enemy DPS classes. In another match a SW jumped on another pillar to attack me while i was taking down some of his team mates. If a enemy is capping, some classes/builds can jump on node and contest, while others might simply be enough of a threat when shooting/CCing from off-node, that the enemy is forced to leave the node and go after them.
Let's say strategies other than node fighting might have more room in PvP. One being ranged support builds that can damage/CC your team a lot if let alone. Teams would be forced to keep an eye on pillars, and would add another layer of strategy to domination, other than the usual node-capping. The devs already did a good change, in my opinion, when they changed the rule to node-capping. It made the ability to just stand on a node and survive, without killing, more useful. Before that, a tank would be less useful, because standing on a node with another enemy, would just make it "contested" and give no points. Now it's important to run on a node that is being capped and just protect it. Or, if you're a ranged support, get there and kill the capper or force the enemy to jump off-node to chase you.