I see this a more of a math question, I too would like to see how this maths out to a 100K hit and what is the hit, Bull Charge or Commanders strike? Whatever it is, it hits me harder than most GWF IBF...I am sort of curious and not that great at GF.
I don't think courage breaker does 120% damage reduction, that does not even make sense, I thought it was 30% plus a bit more each stack.
I just recorded a video. It's outside wall of iwp pvp area so no tenacity. Damage was insane without tenacity but with tenacity you wont see much difference anyway... but that wasn't the reason of recording it. It's more about ITC, bullcharge, proned and for some reason i couldn't dodge at 0.24
I just recorded a video. It's outside wall of iwp pvp area so no tenacity. Damage was insane without tenacity but with tenacity you wont see much difference anyway... but that wasn't the reason of recording it. It's more about ITC, bullcharge, proned and for some reason i couldn't dodge at 0.24
Alright lets see what we've learned from this excellent video.
-Companions
-Icewind Dale
-NOT BEHIND THE WALL
Only thing that I agree with you here is the prone times. That isn't just on the GF though, try rolling or dodging with any prones in this game and you will have the same/ similar effect. Same thing happens with my shield when I try to get up from a prone. It happens right after you momentarily get up from the prone. I don't know if it's done on purpose to secure a kill or a bug in general with prones in this game. Indomitable Strength does the same thing, Boar Charge, it's something to do with the prone behavior.
I just recorded a video. It's outside wall of iwp pvp area so no tenacity. Damage was insane without tenacity but with tenacity you wont see much difference anyway... but that wasn't the reason of recording it. It's more about ITC, bullcharge, proned and for some reason i couldn't dodge at 0.24
I just recorded a video. It's outside wall of iwp pvp area so no tenacity. Damage was insane without tenacity but with tenacity you wont see much difference anyway... but that wasn't the reason of recording it. It's more about ITC, bullcharge, proned and for some reason i couldn't dodge at 0.24
Mod edited link to video to a more trusted DVR site.
Ha ha you are Dark Nightmare
We just had a few games together in PvP... We had a game just a short while ago and the enemy team had 2 GF, 2 Pallys and a permastun HR... Complete joke of a game that was lol.
Main - Rydia (HR70) - Xbox One Player only Alts : Storm (SW70), Edge (TR70), AD Farm (CW70), Grunt (GF70), Rosa (DC70), AD AD AD (GWF70), Your Mum (OP70)
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kalina311Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,082Arc User
edited January 2018
Funny I also made a neutral comment about gf prones in a closed thread a long time ago and got shot down for siding with an unfair feedback member/ user even tho my comment was phrased neutrally in an thread about what was unfairly overpowered on a Gf .. ya there was / is an issue with prones in pvp on many classes and most powers that had them were nerfed and removed from game
Movement, steel grace plus into the fray = racehorse. Prone, bullcharge = send them flying, and apply crushing pin, follow up at leisure because, unlike boars charge, bull doesn't imobilize you as well. Tanky, even with my dps loadout, shield up = huge damage reduction, on top of my already great innate DR. Self buffs, again, Mark target, into the fray, crushing pin = orbital strike.
All of this, or variations of this are possible without having to respecc, just by switching powers on the fly.
Personally I don't really care about GF damage, or buffs, or damage resistance, or movement, but the prone could be given a balance pass with regard to duration without effecting GF PVE performance in the least.
Can anyone explain what happened in this video i recorded today in iwp lol. I didn't recorded because of 1 rotation kill since we are outside wall which means no tenacity + comps, etc, etc.
Can anyone explain what happened in this video i recorded today in iwp lol. I didn't recorded because of 1 rotation kill since we are outside wall which means no tenacity + comps, etc, etc.
ofcourse, you got hit by second strike of indomitable strenght, every experienced player know that he must make 2 dodges if you don't want to get hit by this daily even after dodge. This is also known bug, which i suggest to fix in GF's thread, to make fight against them more equal but i don't think this one will be ever fixed, devs have more important things to do like changing appearance of some stronghold bears for example.
By all means, buff the pve side of GFs, so they can better compete with OPs in tong, however, as has been said across multiple threads, by many respected posters, GF prones in PvP need a balance in line with the capabilities of other classes.
GF does not need a buff. Not in PvP at least. Is it a joke? Instead of comparing it to the most broken class in current PvP (TR), try to compare it to other classes. SW, GWF, HR, CW.
Let's compare GF and GWF. I play both.
Speed: GF can move as fast as a sprinting GWF, as mentioned by jon, using steel grace+ITF. Racehorse. GWF needs to sprint+bravery to achieve the same speed. In all truth, i have bravery feated and in PvP a feared GF could outrun my sprint. So it's possible for a GF, to move faster than a sprinting GWF with bravery. Amazing. Plus GWF sprint works as a gap closer, can't be used to move around fast at any time, or it's wasted. Because GWF does not have auto-gap closing encounters, but needs to reposition everytime using sprint to chase the enemy. GF have auto gap-closing powers in their rotation so they don't need to chase the enemy much, no cooldown on gap-closing at will Threat Rush, AND can run as fast as a sprinting GWF while buffing himself instantly. GWF have cooldown/charges on Threat Rush and to move as fast as a GF must use sprint, which is also needed to chase the enemy to get in melee range.
Survivability: GF can resist more thanks to the raw 80% DR on different layer(NOT PIERCED BY ARP/DRI) provided by shield. Can reposition and move around fast WITH SHIELD UP thanks to steel grace+ITF. If the enemy hits the shield, GF gets little to no damage. GWF can sprint to get 30% DR PIERCEABLE by ARP, go unstoppable AFTER TAKING DAMAGE to get another 30% PIERCEABLE DR for a few seconds. All pierced by capped DRI/high DRI and ARP. Reason why if a GWF hits GF shield= no damage, but if a GF hits a GWF in unstoppable or sprinting, the GWF still loses a noticeable chunk of HP. Also, while GF shield up is needed for defense only, GWF sprint is vital to try and get behind the GF.
Damage: GF can burst as fast as a fully-stacked GWF. Differences: GF has this damage instantly with ITF self buff and mark. From the start of the fight. Plus, GF has a CC rotation starting with a auto gap-closing encounter. GWF, to obtain similar burst damage, must:
-mark the enemy (same as GF) - take a noticeable amount of damage to go unstoppable - hit the enemy X times while in unstoppable to build stacks - build destroyer stacks on single target with % chance to stack it on each hit
After that, the GWF can try to burst too. Obviously, if he can get behind the turtling GF.
In PvP, this translates in this: GF self buffs, (bullcharge instantaneus gap-closing encounter) to CC rotate the GWF, if it fails (GWF sprinting away with perfect timing when they bullcharge)/ does not one-rotate due to high HP pool of GWF, they turtle behind the shield and move around, usually with steel grace, fast enough to make GWFs consume a bit of their staming sprinting around, taking little to no damage (4-5% of total HP, or even less). Rinse and repeat until your one-rotating CC combo, hits the GWF. If they fail to CC, the other damage powers can still take away a noticeable chunk of GWF HPs. GWF must: perfectly time sprint to avoid bullcharge initial hit, sprinting away. Still lose 20-25% of your HPs (depends on how much HPs the GWF has). Avoid the other encounters, go unstoppable and try to get behind the GF to deal damage while building stacks (capstone/destroyer stacks exc...). After you've built all the stacks, you can deal the same burst the GF can deal pressing ITF and CC rotate you. If you face-tank, the GF takes almost no damage. Save some sprint for the next ITF--->bullcharge start of GF combo and try not to fail the timing of your dodge, or you're done. Can try to swap one encounter for Frontline Surge and try to hit the GF with it exactly when they drop the shield to ITF--->bullcharge. Again, must not fail the perfect timing. Also, can save the daily and again try to time it perfectly to hit the GF when he tries to bullcharge (fraction of a second).
Now, while it's not as unbalanced as GWF vs SoD TR, it's easy to see that GFs have the upper hande/ an easier time when facing a GWF. And i'd say also with SWs, CWs, HRs.
GF does not need a buff. Not in PvP at least. Is it a joke? Instead of comparing it to the most broken class in current PvP (TR), try to compare it to other classes. SW, GWF, HR, CW.
Let's compare GF and GWF. I play both.
Speed: GF can move as fast as a sprinting GWF, as mentioned by jon, using steel grace+ITF. Racehorse. GWF needs to sprint+bravery to achieve the same speed. In all truth, i have bravery feated and in PvP a feared GF could outrun my sprint. So it's possible for a GF, to move faster than a sprinting GWF with bravery. Amazing. Plus GWF sprint works as a gap closer, can't be used to move around fast at any time, or it's wasted. Because GWF does not have auto-gap closing encounters, but needs to reposition everytime using sprint to chase the enemy. GF have auto gap-closing powers in their rotation so they don't need to chase the enemy much, no cooldown on gap-closing at will Threat Rush, AND can run as fast as a sprinting GWF while buffing himself instantly. GWF have cooldown/charges on Threat Rush and to move as fast as a GF must use sprint, which is also needed to chase the enemy to get in melee range.
Survivability: GF can resist more thanks to the raw 80% DR on different layer(NOT PIERCED BY ARP/DRI) provided by shield. Can reposition and move around fast WITH SHIELD UP thanks to steel grace+ITF. If the enemy hits the shield, GF gets little to no damage. GWF can sprint to get 30% DR PIERCEABLE by ARP, go unstoppable AFTER TAKING DAMAGE to get another 30% PIERCEABLE DR for a few seconds. All pierced by capped DRI/high DRI and ARP. Reason why if a GWF hits GF shield= no damage, but if a GF hits a GWF in unstoppable or sprinting, the GWF still loses a noticeable chunk of HP. Also, while GF shield up is needed for defense only, GWF sprint is vital to try and get behind the GF.
Damage: GF can burst as fast as a fully-stacked GWF. Differences: GF has this damage instantly with ITF self buff and mark. From the start of the fight. Plus, GF has a CC rotation starting with a auto gap-closing encounter. GWF, to obtain similar burst damage, must:
-mark the enemy (same as GF) - take a noticeable amount of damage to go unstoppable - hit the enemy X times while in unstoppable to build stacks - build destroyer stacks on single target with % chance to stack it on each hit
After that, the GWF can try to burst too. Obviously, if he can get behind the turtling GF.
In PvP, this translates in this: GF self buffs, (bullcharge instantaneus gap-closing encounter) to CC rotate the GWF, if it fails (GWF sprinting away with perfect timing when they bullcharge)/ does not one-rotate due to high HP pool of GWF, they turtle behind the shield and move around, usually with steel grace, fast enough to make GWFs consume a bit of their staming sprinting around, taking little to no damage (4-5% of total HP, or even less). Rinse and repeat until your one-rotating CC combo, hits the GWF. If they fail to CC, the other damage powers can still take away a noticeable chunk of GWF HPs. GWF must: perfectly time sprint to avoid bullcharge initial hit, sprinting away. Still lose 20-25% of your HPs (depends on how much HPs the GWF has). Avoid the other encounters, go unstoppable and try to get behind the GF to deal damage while building stacks (capstone/destroyer stacks exc...). After you've built all the stacks, you can deal the same burst the GF can deal pressing ITF and CC rotate you. If you face-tank, the GF takes almost no damage. Save some sprint for the next ITF--->bullcharge start of GF combo and try not to fail the timing of your dodge, or you're done. Can try to swap one encounter for Frontline Surge and try to hit the GF with it exactly when they drop the shield to ITF--->bullcharge. Again, must not fail the perfect timing. Also, can save the daily and again try to time it perfectly to hit the GF when he tries to bullcharge (fraction of a second).
Now, while it's not as unbalanced as GWF vs SoD TR, it's easy to see that GFs have the upper hande/ an easier time when facing a GWF. And i'd say also with SWs, CWs, HRs.
In pvp good gf use IV not SM meaning movement is not super duper as you put it. Gwf has a very good turn out of lifesteal compared to Gf which in pvp is a huge factor after they nerfed all healing.
Yes by all means change bull to stun no need for it to be kb otherwise leave it.
You to and fight bis Gwf in pvp with Gf and then come back and say its easy after you been one shot by IBS.
Gwf has unstoppable as a life saver in pvp when you get jumped by 2-3 good players, Gf die as they can not attack without being cced.
Block is good and at times better then unstoppable but then again unstoppable is better at other times, in pvp gwf and gf are about in the same spot not much differ at all it is mostly how the other team is set up which of them is the better.
If you use SM you gimp your damage due for better survivability and higher movement but of the top 10 Gf all is IV for a reason....
I think it's funny that all these guys talking about steel grace like every gf uses it in PvP. I have news for you, they don't. Most PvP gfs are vanguard which doesn't even have this class feature. All steel grace gives you is movement speed and crit percentage. As any PvP gf will tell you crit is bad to stack in PvP for a guardian because of the severity reduction. So if you want to be a troll that does subpar damage, by all means use steel grace. There are much better class features to choose from that should be slotted over steel grace (shield warriors wrath, combat superiority) if your running a swordmaster build.
No GFs don't have "instant" access to damage. Shield Warriors wrath and the conqueror capstone (which every DPS gf is) both require you to be hit numerous times to fully stack. Combat superiority requires you to be hit to activate as well. Also you talk about two different paragon paths on the gf like both have access to the same class features, which they don't. Threatening rush is IV only. Steel grace is SM only. Trample is IV only.
Also if your going to attack high damage on a gf, things like double marking and bugged feats on the vanguard are better targets because this is usually the one that leads to the dreaded "one shot" hit. Honestly the double marking mechanic is the worst and leads to multiple problems with glitches, lag, and sudden deaths in pvp. Marks shouldn't stack IMO and should be shared across GWFs and GFs. Hopefully they took a look at the issues that arise at some point when you have 3 people marking a target and rework the whole way this system works.
I didn't put it as if they were in the same paragon. I wrote that GF can have high speed with steel grace+ITF, and that threat rush has no cooldown. So no matter how you look at it, they get same mobility as a GWF, considering they can either have high speed (SM) or at-will gap closer with no cooldown. Hope this is more clear. I was speaking of the class as a whole. I've seen SM GFs in PvP. May be it's not the rule, but they still have pretty good tools, as mentioned. IV does not have steel grace but the infinite threat rush at-will and auto gap-closing encounters allow them, together with ITF, to have same mobility of a GWF that must use sprint to get in melee range and has limited threat rush charges. It's not rocket science. Both builds have very good mobility, despite being a shield tank.
News for you: Unstoppable does very little to make you survive in PvP. Temp HPs are halved cause it's under healing depression, if you didn't know. Lifesteal is under healing depression too. So the "GWF has lifesteal" argument is, sorry to say, not valid. GWF got hit a lot more by mod 12b changes becuase it used to rely on self healing to survive, more than life steal, cause the defensive tools of GWFs (sprint and unstoppable "normal" DR, supposed higher DR from armor) are all outdated.
DR on a seprate layer makes a HUGE difference. If gangbanged, GWFs go down as fast as a GF, with the difference that in 1v1, GF has the upper hand. Even in group fights, if the GF knows how to position, he can avoid a lot of damage thanks to shield. GWFs, on the other hand, eat all the damage that comes at them. Which is the reason why they become good only with high HP pool. In 12b GWFs sacrificed some HPs for more damage, due to the fact that ppl dies faster, so being able to kill faster is worth sacrificing 15-20k HPs. It's a huge difference when it comes to stacks: GF builds stacks "taking damage", but it's damage they receive through their shield (if they are good players). GWFs, instead, at the start of the fight eat all the damage. GF with ITF alone can burst more than a GWF at 0 stacks (beginning of the fight), and the price they pay to build stacks is smaller. GWFs usually have to lose 25%+ of their HPs to just go unstoppable the first time.
If you get one-shotted by IBS in a 1v1 with no CC involved...then you do something wrong. IBS is literally the easiest encounter to dodge. It's not some insta-cast auto gap-closing power. Good players don't even have to "dodge" to avoid IBS. Often it's enough to just bunnyhop around/ move away. It's that slow.
In my experience, GWF 1v1 is the easiest class to kite. The tools the class has are so outdated that until they reach a very high iLvL, they are an easy prey. A GF i talked to, referred to GWFs saying "GWFs are made of paper, but if they can build stacks they can deal some serious damage".
Made of paper.
I agree on one thing: GFs die if gangbanged, while other classes like TRs die much less because they have the tools to escape pretty much any situation. But 1v1, GF has the tools to dominate a GWF. I remember only 1 GF which was not BiS but he was the most skilled GF i've ever faced. Don't remember the name, but he used to post YT videos. He studied a way to move with shield up that made close to impossible to get behind him. GFs nowadays just move in circle most of the time...
Please show us videos of any pvp GF dominating @xsayajinx1 's and/or Icidrakes's GWF.
Even better: grab yourself a GWF and go vs some decent GF who knows what he's doing. No need for them to be BiS monsters. What i wrote, the mechanics involved in PvP when those classes clash, is pretty clear. Go test it yourself. Some stuff is not debatable. Shift shield is 80% DR on a different layer, to use only as defense. Shift sprint is 30% pierceable, and must be used as a gap closer. Speed and movement is as described, not much to add. The tools are there. You can also build your own 10kish GWF and come practice with me, since my GF alt is still low in gear/iLvL.
Note also that i did not write that GFs "dominate" GWFs. I wrote that they have the upper hand. TRs "dominate" GWFs with all the nonsense stuff the devs gave them. GF vs GWF is still a fight (at same iLvL), but a 1v1 works as i described. GF has the upper hand. The GWF must flawlessly time sprint with GF bullcharge, AND sprint away, to get "only" 20%ish of their total HPs taken away, then be skilled to build stacks AND catch the GF from behind/ in the gap between turtling and bullcharging. Moret than getting behind the GF, usually it all comes down to waiting for the GF to drop the shield and use daily IS+IBS, or sprint away when he bullcharges, then turn around and IS+IBS the unguarded GF, if he doesn't raise his shield up right after failing to Bullcharge. As i said, for GF it's much easier and comes down to basically insta bull charge the GWF out of their sprint, and turtle if they fail, until all the powers are up again. Shield grants perfect defense, prone rotation grants easy-to-use, fast burst damage. GWF, instead, must: time sprint with bullcharge (aka: predict if the GF is going to bullcharge), still take more damage due to sprint and unstoppable being way less effective than shield as defense, do not waste stamina (or you're dead in the next rotation), use unstoppable efficiently to build stacks, wait for daily to be up, time your daily perfectly because you have 1 chance to CC and rotate the GF (unlike the GF, that does not need to wait for the daily to be up). As a GWF you have to work way more. GF can shot his rotation right on an unstoppable/sprinting GWF and still deal some noticeable damage. If GWF facetanks the GF, he deals no damage and soon dies. To defend, GWF must time perfectly sprint to sprint away from instantaneus bullcharge. GF must raise his shield and keep it up while moving around.
Since you talked about icy however, just watch his old video of 2 modules ago vs GF, and you'll notice that the vs works exactly as i described, except for the fact that 2 modules ago the GWF could self heal way more and received less damage, compared to mod 12b PvP.
Please show us videos of any pvp GF dominating @xsayajinx1 's and/or Icidrakes's GWF.
Even better: grab yourself a GWF and go vs some decent GF who knows what he's doing. No need for them to be BiS monsters. What i wrote, the mechanics involved in PvP when those classes clash, is pretty clear. Go test it yourself. Some stuff is not debatable. Shift shield is 80% DR on a different layer, to use only as defense. Shift sprint is 30% pierceable, and must be used as a gap closer. Speed and movement is as described, not much to add. The tools are there. You can also build your own 10kish GWF and come practice with me, since my GF alt is still low in gear/iLvL.
Note also that i did not write that GFs "dominate" GWFs. I wrote that they have the upper hand. TRs "dominate" GWFs with all the nonsense stuff the devs gave them. GF vs GWF is still a fight (at same iLvL), but a 1v1 works as i described. GF has the upper hand. The GWF must flawlessly time sprint with GF bullcharge, AND sprint away, to get "only" 20%ish of their total HPs taken away, then be skilled to build stacks AND catch the GF from behind/ in the gap between turtling and bullcharging. Moret than getting behind the GF, usually it all comes down to waiting for the GF to drop the shield and use daily IS+IBS, or sprint away when he bullcharges, then turn around and IS+IBS the unguarded GF, if he doesn't raise his shield up right after failing to Bullcharge. As i said, for GF it's much easier and comes down to basically insta bull charge the GWF out of their sprint, and turtle if they fail, until all the powers are up again. Shield grants perfect defense, prone rotation grants easy-to-use, fast burst damage. GWF, instead, must: time sprint with bullcharge (aka: predict if the GF is going to bullcharge), still take more damage due to sprint and unstoppable being way less effective than shield as defense, do not waste stamina (or you're dead in the next rotation), use unstoppable efficiently to build stacks, wait for daily to be up, time your daily perfectly because you have 1 chance to CC and rotate the GF (unlike the GF, that does not need to wait for the daily to be up). As a GWF you have to work way more. GF can shot his rotation right on an unstoppable/sprinting GWF and still deal some noticeable damage. If GWF facetanks the GF, he deals no damage and soon dies. To defend, GWF must time perfectly sprint to sprint away from instantaneus bullcharge. GF must raise his shield and keep it up while moving around.
Since you talked about icy however, just watch his old video of 2 modules ago vs GF, and you'll notice that the vs works exactly as i described, except for the fact that 2 modules ago the GWF could self heal way more and received less damage, compared to mod 12b PvP.
When I read your text it is clear that we either dont play the same game or that you compare 10kIL gf and gwfs. Now once you move up to rank 13 enchants bis with lion etc etc its a hole new ballpark.
First Gwf use 150ish arpen and have feats that greatly improve their stats compared to other classes including Gfs. Gwf extremely fast and hard hitting at wills makes lifesteal work even with new healing nerf.
Domination is not 1-1 and yes you get wrecked and on shotted by Ibs quite a lot becuase Tr, CW, Hr and SW tend to focus cc on Gfs making them quite easy targets for IBS.
And you are wrong 1-1 bis Gwf has he upper hand against Gfs one wrong move as Gf you die to daily Ibs to the contrary to Gwf that will eat quite a few full cc rotations before they die.
What you write is maby true in the 10k IL range but most certainly not at bis IL.
Too bad my GWF is 14k+ and what i write comes from a ton of node fights 1v1 with 14k+ GFs. My alt GF is 10k. Never said all my toons are at that iLvL.
But what you wrote is important. Once you move to rank 13s lions exc..., you say. Which is exactly the issue. GWF needs gear. Tons of gear. It's the proof that the TOOLS the class has, are outdated. Because their efficiency scales with gear way, way more than for other classes. I'm pretty sure i wrote somewhere in my posts here already, and your words confirm it. Every simgle time someone speaks about GWFs, they say "eh, but if you become BiS then it changes....". News: if a class goes from weak to strong only when becoming BiS, something is wrong.
GF tools allow them to be effective at any iLvL, way before they become "BiS".
What i write is true at least up to 14k iLvL. Can't say at BiS, but you know, 99% of NW players don't play at BiS level, and classes must be balanced through the whole range of gear/iLvLs. If you want to see BiS GWF and GF clash, you should ask to some of the BiS players in-game how it works for them.
Sorry if getting focused makes you angry, but everyone gets focused in PvP, expecially if able to tank a lot with a shield and one rotate your team mates. It's not a valid argument. My GWF gets focused the same when the enemies realize i am the one in my team that deals the most damage...
Getting focused in PvP is normal. Getting focused is not an excuse to ask for both tankiness and insane burst and chain CC all in the same class/build. But GFs are so used to walk around one-rotating people and then tanking with shield up, that when focused, for example, by my archer HR, and killed, they get angry. Very angry.
Well I'm top 2 GF right now and I use SM But I don't use Steel Grace, I need the damage from SWW so your point stands. More people needs to play GF before complaining. @macjae 's post here shows it really well.
While at it, make it so that block blocks all damage 360 degree arc and make stealth last forever.
A more reasonable suggestion would be to stop Indomitable Strength from applying a 2nd prone after you dodge the first and perhaps reducing its damage.
The main reason to focus a GF isn't just their damage capability, but the fact that they are overall much more vulnerable than other toons that do similar damage, like GWFs and TRs. They lack the chicken-run escape abilities those classes have, and are usually less tanky than those classes are once they get CCed. Keeping them focused also makes it harder for them to attack, since it's risky for them to drop their block, whereas GWFs are just fine with people giving them Unstoppable.
And while it may be somewhat true that GWFs are more gear-dependent, even middling GWFs can either be fairly tanky or have pack a decent of damage, but not both at once. That's true for any class.
On average, from the players on page 1, GWFs and GFs score about the same average number of kills per match, but GFs have an average of a little more than twice as many deaths as GWFs do. I'd say they are probably a little more used to dying than GWFs are.
Mmmh...but while they are more vulnerable to CC compared to GWFs, when it comes to damage mitigation, they have a better tool (shield up is 80% DR on a different layer), while i noticed that GWFs get damage through sprint and unstoppable, even if there's some reduction. The damage they take is still noticeable.
Players on page 1 are a bit misleading in my opinion, since there are only 2 (if i am not mistaken) GWFs, and one of them is very carefully controlling his K/D ratio. One reason is also probably because, as you mentioned, they lack the escape ability of sprint.
In Mod12b, with the self-healing reductions, GWFs go down way faster in my experience, since their survivability came mainly from self heals, while i noticed that unless they get ganged up by multiple enemies, GFs can survive a bit more. Also, most GFs i meet play in a very straight forward and predictable way: turtle, pop ITF and the go straight for bullcharge. More experienced ones pop ITF and fake bullcharge at least one time, using it when the GWF stops sprinting.
But in a 1v1 fight on a node, GWF vs GF, the GWF has to work way more and is at a little disadvantage. Mainly because, as i mentioned, the defensive tools of GWFs get "pierced" and mitigate less damage than a GF shield. Also the self buffs on GWF take longer/ more sacrifice to build up (take damage, go unstoppable exc...+ destroyer stacks on single target being a % chance to proc).
No videos shown, that speaks volumes as to what GF vs GWF is 1v1 at BiS which is what I requested you about.
I'm yet to see any video in which any of the best tier GFs ever had the upper hand when fighting Ruy and Icy, the very same reason you didn't provide any video eidence of that but there are plenty of videos of them owning GFs over and over again, Ryu has one absolutely destroying notable ones.
Video proof of BiS GWF (that knows his stuff) > BiS GF (that knows his stuff) > your clear bias post against GF, you showed zero video evidence on BiS GF having the upper hand on BiS Ryu's/Icy's GWF, no one has actually ever done that post ITF nerf from what I remember, no one has because they have no video proof.
BiS GWF that knows what he's doing > BiS GF that knows what he's doing.
No videos shown, that speaks volumes as to what GF vs GWF is 1v1 at BiS which is what I requested you about.
I'm yet to see any video in which any of the best tier GFs ever had the upper hand when fighting Ruy and Icy, the very same reason you didn't provide any video eidence of that but there are plenty of videos of them owning GFs over and over again, Ryu has one absolutely destroying notable ones.
Video proof of BiS GWF (that knows his stuff) > BiS GF (that knows his stuff) > your clear bias post against GF, you showed zero video evidence on BiS GF having the upper hand on BiS Ryu's/Icy's GWF, no one has actually ever done that post ITF nerf from what I remember, no one has because they have no video proof.
BiS GWF that knows what he's doing > BiS GF that knows what he's doing.
Here's a video from yesterday. Best GWF v Best GF on Xbox. We both know our class very well. This was a lot of fun.
Side note: GWF is using a Valhalla set! I was impressed.
No videos shown, that speaks volumes as to what GF vs GWF is 1v1 at BiS which is what I requested you about.
I'm yet to see any video in which any of the best tier GFs ever had the upper hand when fighting Ruy and Icy, the very same reason you didn't provide any video eidence of that but there are plenty of videos of them owning GFs over and over again, Ryu has one absolutely destroying notable ones.
Video proof of BiS GWF (that knows his stuff) > BiS GF (that knows his stuff) > your clear bias post against GF, you showed zero video evidence on BiS GF having the upper hand on BiS Ryu's/Icy's GWF, no one has actually ever done that post ITF nerf from what I remember, no one has because they have no video proof.
BiS GWF that knows what he's doing > BiS GF that knows what he's doing.
Here's a video from yesterday. Best GWF v Best GF on Xbox. We both know our class very well. This was a lot of fun.
Side note: GWF is using a Valhalla set! I was impressed.
Ha ha is that the clip where you both died at the same time after a long fight? I saw a clip pop up yesterday that you made and the fight was epic
Main - Rydia (HR70) - Xbox One Player only Alts : Storm (SW70), Edge (TR70), AD Farm (CW70), Grunt (GF70), Rosa (DC70), AD AD AD (GWF70), Your Mum (OP70)
Comments
I don't think courage breaker does 120% damage reduction, that does not even make sense, I thought it was 30% plus a bit more each stack.
OP - Sunshine: 16000 IL
Casual Dailies
http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/FinalFantasyAC7/video/42863129
Mod edited link to video to a more trusted DVR site.
¨˜ˆ”°¹~•-.„¸ρℓαуιиg иєνєяωιитєя ѕιи¢є 2015¸„.-•~¹°”ˆ˜¨
Alright lets see what we've learned from this excellent video.
-Companions
-Icewind Dale
-NOT BEHIND THE WALL
Only thing that I agree with you here is the prone times. That isn't just on the GF though, try rolling or dodging with any prones in this game and you will have the same/ similar effect. Same thing happens with my shield when I try to get up from a prone. It happens right after you momentarily get up from the prone. I don't know if it's done on purpose to secure a kill or a bug in general with prones in this game. Indomitable Strength does the same thing, Boar Charge, it's something to do with the prone behavior.
Guardian Fighter
TLO
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1221446/the-future-of-the-gf/p1 Existing Problems Still In The Guardian Fighter
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/comment/12984912m
Feat Changes I'd like to see in The Guardian Fighter
Same with TRs
We just had a few games together in PvP... We had a game just a short while ago and the enemy team had 2 GF, 2 Pallys and a permastun HR... Complete joke of a game that was lol.
Alts :
Storm (SW70), Edge (TR70), AD Farm (CW70), Grunt (GF70), Rosa (DC70), AD AD AD (GWF70), Your Mum (OP70)
Member of Q-Snipe
ya there was / is an issue with prones in pvp on many classes and most powers that had them were nerfed and removed from game
Movement, steel grace plus into the fray = racehorse.
Prone, bullcharge = send them flying, and apply crushing pin, follow up at leisure because, unlike boars charge, bull doesn't imobilize you as well.
Tanky, even with my dps loadout, shield up = huge damage reduction, on top of my already great innate DR.
Self buffs, again, Mark target, into the fray, crushing pin = orbital strike.
All of this, or variations of this are possible without having to respecc, just by switching powers on the fly.
Personally I don't really care about GF damage, or buffs, or damage resistance, or movement, but the prone could be given a balance pass with regard to duration without effecting GF PVE performance in the least.
I didn't recorded because of 1 rotation kill since we are outside wall which means no tenacity + comps, etc, etc.
http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/FinalFantasyAC7/video/42872783
¨˜ˆ”°¹~•-.„¸ρℓαуιиg иєνєяωιитєя ѕιи¢є 2015¸„.-•~¹°”ˆ˜¨
Let's compare GF and GWF. I play both.
Speed: GF can move as fast as a sprinting GWF, as mentioned by jon, using steel grace+ITF. Racehorse. GWF needs to sprint+bravery to achieve the same speed. In all truth, i have bravery feated and in PvP a feared GF could outrun my sprint. So it's possible for a GF, to move faster than a sprinting GWF with bravery. Amazing. Plus GWF sprint works as a gap closer, can't be used to move around fast at any time, or it's wasted. Because GWF does not have auto-gap closing encounters, but needs to reposition everytime using sprint to chase the enemy. GF have auto gap-closing powers in their rotation so they don't need to chase the enemy much, no cooldown on gap-closing at will Threat Rush, AND can run as fast as a sprinting GWF while buffing himself instantly. GWF have cooldown/charges on Threat Rush and to move as fast as a GF must use sprint, which is also needed to chase the enemy to get in melee range.
Survivability: GF can resist more thanks to the raw 80% DR on different layer(NOT PIERCED BY ARP/DRI) provided by shield. Can reposition and move around fast WITH SHIELD UP thanks to steel grace+ITF. If the enemy hits the shield, GF gets little to no damage. GWF can sprint to get 30% DR PIERCEABLE by ARP, go unstoppable AFTER TAKING DAMAGE to get another 30% PIERCEABLE DR for a few seconds. All pierced by capped DRI/high DRI and ARP. Reason why if a GWF hits GF shield= no damage, but if a GF hits a GWF in unstoppable or sprinting, the GWF still loses a noticeable chunk of HP. Also, while GF shield up is needed for defense only, GWF sprint is vital to try and get behind the GF.
Damage: GF can burst as fast as a fully-stacked GWF. Differences: GF has this damage instantly with ITF self buff and mark. From the start of the fight. Plus, GF has a CC rotation starting with a auto gap-closing encounter. GWF, to obtain similar burst damage, must:
-mark the enemy (same as GF)
- take a noticeable amount of damage to go unstoppable
- hit the enemy X times while in unstoppable to build stacks
- build destroyer stacks on single target with % chance to stack it on each hit
After that, the GWF can try to burst too. Obviously, if he can get behind the turtling GF.
In PvP, this translates in this: GF self buffs, (bullcharge instantaneus gap-closing encounter) to CC rotate the GWF, if it fails (GWF sprinting away with perfect timing when they bullcharge)/ does not one-rotate due to high HP pool of GWF, they turtle behind the shield and move around, usually with steel grace, fast enough to make GWFs consume a bit of their staming sprinting around, taking little to no damage (4-5% of total HP, or even less). Rinse and repeat until your one-rotating CC combo, hits the GWF. If they fail to CC, the other damage powers can still take away a noticeable chunk of GWF HPs.
GWF must: perfectly time sprint to avoid bullcharge initial hit, sprinting away. Still lose 20-25% of your HPs (depends on how much HPs the GWF has). Avoid the other encounters, go unstoppable and try to get behind the GF to deal damage while building stacks (capstone/destroyer stacks exc...). After you've built all the stacks, you can deal the same burst the GF can deal pressing ITF and CC rotate you. If you face-tank, the GF takes almost no damage. Save some sprint for the next ITF--->bullcharge start of GF combo and try not to fail the timing of your dodge, or you're done.
Can try to swap one encounter for Frontline Surge and try to hit the GF with it exactly when they drop the shield to ITF--->bullcharge. Again, must not fail the perfect timing.
Also, can save the daily and again try to time it perfectly to hit the GF when he tries to bullcharge (fraction of a second).
Now, while it's not as unbalanced as GWF vs SoD TR, it's easy to see that GFs have the upper hande/ an easier time when facing a GWF. And i'd say also with SWs, CWs, HRs.
Gwf has a very good turn out of lifesteal compared to Gf which in pvp is a huge factor after they nerfed all healing.
Yes by all means change bull to stun no need for it to be kb otherwise leave it.
You to and fight bis Gwf in pvp with Gf and then come back and say its easy after you been one shot by IBS.
Gwf has unstoppable as a life saver in pvp when you get jumped by 2-3 good players, Gf die as they can not attack without being cced.
Block is good and at times better then unstoppable but then again unstoppable is better at other times, in pvp gwf and gf are about in the same spot not much differ at all it is mostly how the other team is set up which of them is the better.
If you use SM you gimp your damage due for better survivability and higher movement but of the top 10 Gf all is IV for a reason....
@pando83
No GFs don't have "instant" access to damage. Shield Warriors wrath and the conqueror capstone (which every DPS gf is) both require you to be hit numerous times to fully stack. Combat superiority requires you to be hit to activate as well. Also you talk about two different paragon paths on the gf like both have access to the same class features, which they don't. Threatening rush is IV only. Steel grace is SM only. Trample is IV only.
Also if your going to attack high damage on a gf, things like double marking and bugged feats on the vanguard are better targets because this is usually the one that leads to the dreaded "one shot" hit. Honestly the double marking mechanic is the worst and leads to multiple problems with glitches, lag, and sudden deaths in pvp. Marks shouldn't stack IMO and should be shared across GWFs and GFs. Hopefully they took a look at the issues that arise at some point when you have 3 people marking a target and rework the whole way this system works.
News for you: Unstoppable does very little to make you survive in PvP. Temp HPs are halved cause it's under healing depression, if you didn't know. Lifesteal is under healing depression too. So the "GWF has lifesteal" argument is, sorry to say, not valid. GWF got hit a lot more by mod 12b changes becuase it used to rely on self healing to survive, more than life steal, cause the defensive tools of GWFs (sprint and unstoppable "normal" DR, supposed higher DR from armor) are all outdated.
DR on a seprate layer makes a HUGE difference. If gangbanged, GWFs go down as fast as a GF, with the difference that in 1v1, GF has the upper hand. Even in group fights, if the GF knows how to position, he can avoid a lot of damage thanks to shield. GWFs, on the other hand, eat all the damage that comes at them. Which is the reason why they become good only with high HP pool. In 12b GWFs sacrificed some HPs for more damage, due to the fact that ppl dies faster, so being able to kill faster is worth sacrificing 15-20k HPs.
It's a huge difference when it comes to stacks: GF builds stacks "taking damage", but it's damage they receive through their shield (if they are good players). GWFs, instead, at the start of the fight eat all the damage. GF with ITF alone can burst more than a GWF at 0 stacks (beginning of the fight), and the price they pay to build stacks is smaller. GWFs usually have to lose 25%+ of their HPs to just go unstoppable the first time.
If you get one-shotted by IBS in a 1v1 with no CC involved...then you do something wrong. IBS is literally the easiest encounter to dodge. It's not some insta-cast auto gap-closing power. Good players don't even have to "dodge" to avoid IBS. Often it's enough to just bunnyhop around/ move away. It's that slow.
In my experience, GWF 1v1 is the easiest class to kite. The tools the class has are so outdated that until they reach a very high iLvL, they are an easy prey. A GF i talked to, referred to GWFs saying "GWFs are made of paper, but if they can build stacks they can deal some serious damage".
Made of paper.
I agree on one thing: GFs die if gangbanged, while other classes like TRs die much less because they have the tools to escape pretty much any situation.
But 1v1, GF has the tools to dominate a GWF. I remember only 1 GF which was not BiS but he was the most skilled GF i've ever faced. Don't remember the name, but he used to post YT videos. He studied a way to move with shield up that made close to impossible to get behind him. GFs nowadays just move in circle most of the time...
Please show us videos of any pvp GF dominating @xsayajinx1 's and/or Icidrakes's GWF.
they can easy mark you and gain advantage bonus. strong pron combo to give extra damage as well.
at some level you can't make mistakes with GF, like TR.
don't forget you need to win, seprate the GF is sometime TR job
Note also that i did not write that GFs "dominate" GWFs. I wrote that they have the upper hand. TRs "dominate" GWFs with all the nonsense stuff the devs gave them. GF vs GWF is still a fight (at same iLvL), but a 1v1 works as i described. GF has the upper hand. The GWF must flawlessly time sprint with GF bullcharge, AND sprint away, to get "only" 20%ish of their total HPs taken away, then be skilled to build stacks AND catch the GF from behind/ in the gap between turtling and bullcharging. Moret than getting behind the GF, usually it all comes down to waiting for the GF to drop the shield and use daily IS+IBS, or sprint away when he bullcharges, then turn around and IS+IBS the unguarded GF, if he doesn't raise his shield up right after failing to Bullcharge. As i said, for GF it's much easier and comes down to basically insta bull charge the GWF out of their sprint, and turtle if they fail, until all the powers are up again. Shield grants perfect defense, prone rotation grants easy-to-use, fast burst damage. GWF, instead, must: time sprint with bullcharge (aka: predict if the GF is going to bullcharge), still take more damage due to sprint and unstoppable being way less effective than shield as defense, do not waste stamina (or you're dead in the next rotation), use unstoppable efficiently to build stacks, wait for daily to be up, time your daily perfectly because you have 1 chance to CC and rotate the GF (unlike the GF, that does not need to wait for the daily to be up).
As a GWF you have to work way more. GF can shot his rotation right on an unstoppable/sprinting GWF and still deal some noticeable damage. If GWF facetanks the GF, he deals no damage and soon dies. To defend, GWF must time perfectly sprint to sprint away from instantaneus bullcharge. GF must raise his shield and keep it up while moving around.
Since you talked about icy however, just watch his old video of 2 modules ago vs GF, and you'll notice that the vs works exactly as i described, except for the fact that 2 modules ago the GWF could self heal way more and received less damage, compared to mod 12b PvP.
Now once you move up to rank 13 enchants bis with lion etc etc its a hole new ballpark.
First Gwf use 150ish arpen and have feats that greatly improve their stats compared to other classes including Gfs.
Gwf extremely fast and hard hitting at wills makes lifesteal work even with new healing nerf.
Domination is not 1-1 and yes you get wrecked and on shotted by Ibs quite a lot becuase Tr, CW, Hr and SW tend to focus cc on Gfs making them quite easy targets for IBS.
And you are wrong 1-1 bis Gwf has he upper hand against Gfs one wrong move as Gf you die to daily Ibs to the contrary to Gwf that will eat quite a few full cc rotations before they die.
What you write is maby true in the 10k IL range but most certainly not at bis IL.
But what you wrote is important. Once you move to rank 13s lions exc..., you say. Which is exactly the issue. GWF needs gear. Tons of gear. It's the proof that the TOOLS the class has, are outdated. Because their efficiency scales with gear way, way more than for other classes. I'm pretty sure i wrote somewhere in my posts here already, and your words confirm it.
Every simgle time someone speaks about GWFs, they say "eh, but if you become BiS then it changes....". News: if a class goes from weak to strong only when becoming BiS, something is wrong.
GF tools allow them to be effective at any iLvL, way before they become "BiS".
What i write is true at least up to 14k iLvL. Can't say at BiS, but you know, 99% of NW players don't play at BiS level, and classes must be balanced through the whole range of gear/iLvLs. If you want to see BiS GWF and GF clash, you should ask to some of the BiS players in-game how it works for them.
Sorry if getting focused makes you angry, but everyone gets focused in PvP, expecially if able to tank a lot with a shield and one rotate your team mates. It's not a valid argument. My GWF gets focused the same when the enemies realize i am the one in my team that deals the most damage...
Getting focused in PvP is normal. Getting focused is not an excuse to ask for both tankiness and insane burst and chain CC all in the same class/build. But GFs are so used to walk around one-rotating people and then tanking with shield up, that when focused, for example, by my archer HR, and killed, they get angry. Very angry.
But I don't use Steel Grace, I need the damage from SWW so your point stands.
More people needs to play GF before complaining. @macjae 's post here shows it really well.
See 1.27 - Prone shouldn't be in game
¨˜ˆ”°¹~•-.„¸ρℓαуιиg иєνєяωιитєя ѕιи¢є 2015¸„.-•~¹°”ˆ˜¨
While at it, make it so that block blocks all damage 360 degree arc and make stealth last forever.
A more reasonable suggestion would be to stop Indomitable Strength from applying a 2nd prone after you dodge the first and perhaps reducing its damage.
Players on page 1 are a bit misleading in my opinion, since there are only 2 (if i am not mistaken) GWFs, and one of them is very carefully controlling his K/D ratio. One reason is also probably because, as you mentioned, they lack the escape ability of sprint.
In Mod12b, with the self-healing reductions, GWFs go down way faster in my experience, since their survivability came mainly from self heals, while i noticed that unless they get ganged up by multiple enemies, GFs can survive a bit more. Also, most GFs i meet play in a very straight forward and predictable way: turtle, pop ITF and the go straight for bullcharge. More experienced ones pop ITF and fake bullcharge at least one time, using it when the GWF stops sprinting.
But in a 1v1 fight on a node, GWF vs GF, the GWF has to work way more and is at a little disadvantage. Mainly because, as i mentioned, the defensive tools of GWFs get "pierced" and mitigate less damage than a GF shield. Also the self buffs on GWF take longer/ more sacrifice to build up (take damage, go unstoppable exc...+ destroyer stacks on single target being a % chance to proc).
No videos shown, that speaks volumes as to what GF vs GWF is 1v1 at BiS which is what I requested you about.
I'm yet to see any video in which any of the best tier GFs ever had the upper hand when fighting Ruy and Icy, the very same reason you didn't provide any video eidence of that but there are plenty of videos of them owning GFs over and over again, Ryu has one absolutely destroying notable ones.
Video proof of BiS GWF (that knows his stuff) > BiS GF (that knows his stuff) > your clear bias post against GF, you showed zero video evidence on BiS GF having the upper hand on BiS Ryu's/Icy's GWF, no one has actually ever done that post ITF nerf from what I remember, no one has because they have no video proof.
BiS GWF that knows what he's doing > BiS GF that knows what he's doing.
Side note: GWF is using a Valhalla set! I was impressed.
http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/Ghostaga/video/42960567
Guardian Fighter
TLO
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1221446/the-future-of-the-gf/p1 Existing Problems Still In The Guardian Fighter
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/comment/12984912m
Feat Changes I'd like to see in The Guardian Fighter
Alts :
Storm (SW70), Edge (TR70), AD Farm (CW70), Grunt (GF70), Rosa (DC70), AD AD AD (GWF70), Your Mum (OP70)
Member of Q-Snipe
http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/FinalFantasyAC7/video/42968178
Here is my stats
http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/FinalFantasyAC7/screenshot/8136254.
¨˜ˆ”°¹~•-.„¸ρℓαуιиg иєνєяωιитєя ѕιи¢є 2015¸„.-•~¹°”ˆ˜¨
He's got a pally right next to him with Courage and Vengeance on, as well as Aura Gifts what do you think is going to happen.
And you didn't get "1 shot", you had a little more than 91,683 HP, and with all the stacks + those buffs from the OP, thats what happens.
Only question I have is wether or not your ITC proc'd because I saw you were immune to the BC, but not sure if it was up to the point of the Anvil.
Guardian Fighter
TLO
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1221446/the-future-of-the-gf/p1 Existing Problems Still In The Guardian Fighter
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/comment/12984912m
Feat Changes I'd like to see in The Guardian Fighter