About GF v2

finalfantasyac7

There is something i just can't figure it out.
Without comps my tr's item level is 13.206.
125k hp. I know it's low cuz im using the defense boon instead of hp boon.
Defense 11.5k ( 35.8%)
Deflect 4.3k (47.3%)
Tenacity gives -
60% less armor penetration and critical severity.
Healing 75% less.
Taking 40% less damage from players.

Now all together.... how is it possible for a GF to take away 90% of my hp ?
We are same item level.. or perhaps he's 300 points higher.

This time i tried Courage Breaker which gives -
30% Damage reduction per rank ( 4 x 30 = 120% damage reduction)

Gf bullcharge takes away 70% - 90% of my hp with CB.

sh00termcl0vin

HP boon is better than def boon in PvP for a TR for the simple reason that any debuff coupled with the armor pen will negate the small amount of def you get from the boon. TRs naturally have low defense as well, which makes it even less important. Also piercing damage ignores def so any combat HR or TR will shred you with 125k hp.

Most gfs in PvP have at least 7k arp. GFs also get 1% arp for each additional point in dex. This is more than enough to overcome or mitigate most if not all of 11k def, even with the increase to suppression.

It does not make sense to stack def on any class (imo def loses in the def vs HP debate for pvp) that does not naturally have high def on armor or from feats, hence the PvP "trolls".

Edit

Fixed wrong stat

theguiido

sh00termcl0vin said:

HP boon is better than def boon in PvP for a TR for the simple reason that any debuff coupled with the armor pen will negate the small amount of def you get from the boon. TRs naturally have low defense as well, which makes it even less important. Also piercing damage ignores def so any combat HR or TR will shred you with 125k hp.



Most gfs in PvP have at least 7k arp. GFs also get 1% arp for each additional point in constitution. This is more than enough to overcome or mitigate most if not all of 11k def, even with the increase to suppression.



It does not make sense to stack def on any class (imo def loses in the def vs HP debate for pvp) that does not naturally have high def on armor or from feats, hence the PvP "trolls".

Dexterity*

Con is AP gain, and HP.

Dex is RI, Deflection Chance, and AoE resist.

kalina311

my guess i that your were not timing stealth / impossible to catch correctly
or the gf was using stealth reveal rings
maybe eat a caprese and guild food for +10~ more hitpoints as well as the boon one like suggested

regardless no one answered your question expect to say get more hit points really good advice guys lol
and not even what he asked at all.. nice deflection ..so lets assume he had +32,000 hitpoints more then the gf would be taking what 70%-80% of his health instead of 90% in one bull charge ..assuming it was not deflected ..we gonna play the semantics game and avoid answering his question ?

is this damage being taken as you are standing flat footed or proned not invisible and not itced like a target dummy ? :P or you are getting stunning by the broken sandy pants and broken jungle boons not fixed by the devs ..or does someone have drains and or overloads/ wards that are class specific that do more damage as well by the way
maybe slot in some gf wards if they are your bane

or thundering armor .. or something .. what is the arm or and weapon enchant the opponent is using also if they are buffed into the frey etc also effects things vs a true 1 v 1

and one of the resident expert gfs @theguiido also gives no advice at all except to correct someone else post
also..what does that have to do with what he asked ...nothing

@sh00termcl0vin will upping hit points really change his example by much

sh00termcl0vin

@kalina311

125k hp vs 195k+ hp which is achievable with full radiants in def sockets and hp boon to be more specific. 70k hp can be the difference between getting 1 shot and surviving. ITC provides all the defenses you need given enough recovery and proper cycling of cooldowns as @theguiido pointed out. Also makes your insignias and potions more effective.

In short yes hp makes a difference. New mod same story.

nem3ziss

In the same way should they nerf TR because i had 230k SoD procc on somebody or should they nerf Dc and GF who buffed me?

kalina311

sh00termcl0vin said:

@kalina311



125k hp vs 195k+ hp which is achievable with full radiants in def sockets and hp boon to be more specific. 70k hp can be the difference between getting 1 shot and surviving. ITC provides all the defenses you need given enough recovery and proper cycling of cooldowns as @theguiido pointed out. Also makes your insignias and potions more effective.



In short yes hp makes a difference. New mod same story.

you are forgetting one thing he is not best in slot ..and not his example ..and if he added +32k hitpoints he would be 157 hitpoints ...he is saying that classes at the same I level are not performing similarly and he is correct there ...but I still think he has a learn to adapt issue as he did not answer my questions either


he is saying that an equivalent i level gf is taking away most of his hit points instantly : d

+1 @sh00termcl0vin

"ITC provides all the defenses you need given enough recovery and proper cycling of cooldowns "

Yes ...assuming 25k-30k, recovery and 100% up time which you cannot have on a mid item level character as he is describing

sh00termcl0vin

@kalina311

125k hp in this mod is terrible for any class. The hp boon alone adds 32k.......

Since op didn't post what gear or enchants he has, I'm going to assume he has the wrong def enchants. If your read what I wrote this is pretty clear.

You don't have to be BIS to have radiants in your def sockets.......

At this point your arguing for the sake of argument.

finalfantasyac7

sh00termcl0vin said:

@kalina311



125k hp in this mod is terrible for any class. The hp boon alone adds 32k.......



Since op didn't post what gear or enchants he has, I'm going to assume he has the wrong def enchants. If your read what I wrote this is pretty clear.



You don't have to be BIS to have radiants in your def sockets.......



At this point your arguing for the sake of argument.

Trans negation, trans feytouched, rank 12 silvery and rank 13 silvery in offense and defense slot.

20k recovery, 24k in combat.
I've been hit very hard with bullcharge even with ITC hehe.
Next time i'll record and post the video.

This data is from domination solo.


21k with at-will (threatening rush)

kalina311

quite a bit of campaigns that are competed give hitpoints as thier boons ..where some may be missing from the character

rabbit

And why only 1 class TR have 75% deflect severity and with invoke potion its 85% more than GF can block, TR should have like all other classes 50% deflect severity. Maybe thats why in leaderboard all tr's have 5k kills and some 50 deaths? Please devs look on it.

finalfantasyac7

fatrabbitfart said:

And why only 1 class TR have 75% deflect severity and with invoke potion its 85% more than GF can block, TR should have like all other classes 50% deflect severity. Maybe thats why in leaderboard all tr's have 5k kills and some 50 deaths? Please devs look on it.

Burst damage ignores deflect.
your argument is invalid because deflect is useless when vs gf or gwf

rabbit

finalfantasyac7 said:

fatrabbitfart said:

And why only 1 class TR have 75% deflect severity and with invoke potion its 85% more than GF can block, TR should have like all other classes 50% deflect severity. Maybe thats why in leaderboard all tr's have 5k kills and some 50 deaths? Please devs look on it.

Piercing damage ignores deflect.
Burst damage ignores deflect.

your argument is invalid because deflect is useless when vs gf or gwf

Ohh u confused and not understand that GF dont have piercing and now u complaining about HR and another TR? Burst damage not ignore deflect lolz. Btw nice screenshots from IWD, why u not show screen from urself and gf, and what for pet u both have or not (im sure u not have it). I will not even ask u for ACT.

theguiido

finalfantasyac7 said:

fatrabbitfart said:

And why only 1 class TR have 75% deflect severity and with invoke potion its 85% more than GF can block, TR should have like all other classes 50% deflect severity. Maybe thats why in leaderboard all tr's have 5k kills and some 50 deaths? Please devs look on it.

Burst damage ignores deflect.
your argument is invalid because deflect is useless when vs gf or gwf

That is not even remotely true. Having deflect up and not is the difference between getting mutilated and surviving. TR's having more deflect severity than any other class investing in deflect is a must. You should never be dying to a GF or GWF. You need more recovery.

pando83

On a GWF point of view, GWF vsGF in PvP is like this: if you sprint (our shift mechanic) towards the GF and he hits you through your shift defensive mechanic, you still lose a big chunk of your HP. If you sprint AWAY from the GF when he tries to bull charge, you still lose a noticeable amount ofHP, but much less than if you were running towards the GF. For example, if the usual GF attack takes away 50% of my 175k HPs, if i sprint away it becomes 30% or so.
Can't figure out why, either. So when facing a GF on a GWF, for example, i have to perfectly time my sprint to move away from them when they bullcharge, to lose "only" 30% of my HPs and avoid the CC rotation. Then they will turtle behind their shift mechanic,shield, to get close to no damage.

So it's probably better to slot some ranged CC and anticipate them when they open up to bullcharge, interrupt and rotate them.

Current GF is not as invincible as top-tier SoD TRs, but it pretty easy-mode in PvP. Can still get gang-banged, unlike OPs (tanks a megaton of damage and can still burst enemies down) or TRs (can avoid most of the damage and just stealth+run away if cornered).

I play GWF,GF,HR,SW,DC and TR (less), and while playing GWF (currently very easy to kill compared to most classes, due to the outdated defensive mechanics, plus can get kited more easily and needs to build stacks and stacks and take damage to deal serious burst) and current glass-cannon HR build, i thought this: when it was Mod3 and GWFs were overpowered, the whole community was saying this: "you can't have the best of both worlds. You either deal lots of damage or you survive a lot". Very true. And with this reason, the devs nerfed GWFs a lot in mod4.

After that, i can't count the times other classes have been reworked and obtained both damage and survivability, or even the trinity (damage/survivability/CC). GF/TR/OP are just the last examples of classes in PvP that have top survivability and damage, and CC.

Where is the old "you can't have the best of both worlds"?

finalfantasyac7

pando83 said:

Current GF is not as invincible as top-tier SoD TRs, but it pretty easy-mode in PvP. Can still get gang-banged, unlike OPs (tanks a megaton of damage and can still burst enemies down) or TRs (can avoid most of the damage and just stealth+run away if cornered).

Incorrect. Doesn't matter what class you are. You can't do anything when proned.
Tr can't use ITC when proned. So 1 unlucky move and either you lose 50% or more of your hp or you're dead by 1 rotation.
Stealth ? You guys giving stealth too much credit.
Gf, gwf, hr, op can still see stealthed tr's by marking them

pando83

finalfantasyac7 said:

Incorrect. Doesn't matter what class you are. You can't do anything when proned.
Tr can't use ITC when proned. So 1 unlucky move and either you lose 50% or more of your hp or you're dead by 1 rotation.
Stealth ? You guys giving stealth too much credit.
Gf, gwf, hr, op can still see stealthed tr's by marking them

With one difference: TRs can non-stop chain stealth/ITC/smoke bomb leaving very, very small openings. If you fail your rotation you can die. If you get proned and lose 50% of your HP, you can stealth and roll roll roll then run away. Most TRs do that everytime, which is why it's the class with less deaths on leaderboard. If my GWF ends up with 50% HPs because he makes a wrong move and gets proned, it's dead a few seconds later. You can go unstoppable and try to sprint away, but while doing so, ranged classes can still kill you, because sprint does literally nothing to mitigate damage nowadays, and same unstoppable. A GF can rotate me through my unstoppable and still get away a huge chunk of my HPs. GFs if cornered and gang-banged, die. Same OPs. TRs are, and have been for most of the life of this game, the only class that can easily escape situations where most classes just die. Put a 15k GWF cornered by 3 other 15k enemies, and it will die (fast i'd say). Make the same with a 15k PvP TR, and he will kite and resist way, way longer.

TRs simply survive more than GWFs or GFs (which are supposed to be tankier/more survivable). Most TRs have also high HP pools, so the story that "we are squishy, if you catch us", is quite false.

35% DR on your TR. GWFs on same iLvL have what, 40% with def boon. Much difference...
75% deflect severity and high deflect makes your TR way more survivable than a 13k GWF. You might notice that 13k fellow GWFs die more quickly than you. It's not because you have more skills. It's because GWF DR on sprint and unstoppable is, pretty much, useless.

Ask yourself why TRs are the class that dies less in PvP, since 6-7 modules.

But back on topic: GF damage seems indeed to work in a weird way. Why do i get 20% less damage from them if i sprint away, compared to sprinting towards them? They are still hitting my shift mechanic.

kalina311

also on another note tenacious concealment gets nerfed next mod so its harder to maintain perma stealth

kalina311

finalfantasyac7 said:

pando83 said:

Current GF is not as invincible as top-tier SoD TRs, but it pretty easy-mode in PvP. Can still get gang-banged, unlike OPs (tanks a megaton of damage and can still burst enemies down) or TRs (can avoid most of the damage and just stealth+run away if cornered).

Incorrect. Doesn't matter what class you are. You can't do anything when proned.
Tr can't use ITC when proned. So 1 unlucky move and either you lose 50% or more of your hp or you're dead by 1 rotation.
Stealth ? You guys giving stealth too much credit.
Gf, gwf, hr, op can still see stealthed tr's by marking them

cws can see tr too by marking them with icy rays ...provided they dont go out of range
or casting a fully charged storm pillar at will entity also arcd lightning and knock them out of stealth
aside from the obvious stealth reveal rings

kalina311

pando83 said:

finalfantasyac7 said:

Incorrect. Doesn't matter what class you are. You can't do anything when proned.
Tr can't use ITC when proned. So 1 unlucky move and either you lose 50% or more of your hp or you're dead by 1 rotation.
Stealth ? You guys giving stealth too much credit.
Gf, gwf, hr, op can still see stealthed tr's by marking them

With one difference: TRs can non-stop chain stealth/ITC/smoke bomb leaving very, very small openings. If you fail your rotation you can die. If you get proned and lose 50% of your HP, you can stealth and roll roll roll then run away. Most TRs do that everytime, which is why it's the class with less deaths on leaderboard. If my GWF ends up with 50% HPs because he makes a wrong move and gets proned, it's dead a few seconds later. You can go unstoppable and try to sprint away, but while doing so, ranged classes can still kill you, because sprint does literally nothing to mitigate damage nowadays, and same unstoppable. A GF can rotate me through my unstoppable and still get away a huge chunk of my HPs. GFs if cornered and gang-banged, die. Same OPs. TRs are, and have been for most of the life of this game, the only class that can easily escape situations where most classes just die. Put a 15k GWF cornered by 3 other 15k enemies, and it will die (fast i'd say). Make the same with a 15k PvP TR, and he will kite and resist way, way longer.

TRs simply survive more than GWFs or GFs (which are supposed to be tankier/more survivable). Most TRs have also high HP pools, so the story that "we are squishy, if you catch us", is quite false.

35% DR on your TR. GWFs on same iLvL have what, 40% with def boon. Much difference...
75% deflect severity and high deflect makes your TR way more survivable than a 13k GWF. You might notice that 13k fellow GWFs die more quickly than you. It's not because you have more skills. It's because GWF DR on sprint and unstoppable is, pretty much, useless.

Ask yourself why TRs are the class that dies less in PvP, since 6-7 modules.

But back on topic: GF damage seems indeed to work in a weird way. Why do i get 20% less damage from them if i sprint away, compared to sprinting towards them? They are still hitting my shift mechanic.

hmm do gf have powers or feats that do more damaged or less based on range / proximity or combat advanage ..only thing i can thing of to account for the damage discrepancy while sprinting away vs twords ..or that you cant be marked as well for an at will combo while retreating ..or some lag window

theguiido

kalina311 said:

pando83 said:

finalfantasyac7 said:

Incorrect. Doesn't matter what class you are. You can't do anything when proned.
Tr can't use ITC when proned. So 1 unlucky move and either you lose 50% or more of your hp or you're dead by 1 rotation.
Stealth ? You guys giving stealth too much credit.
Gf, gwf, hr, op can still see stealthed tr's by marking them

With one difference: TRs can non-stop chain stealth/ITC/smoke bomb leaving very, very small openings. If you fail your rotation you can die. If you get proned and lose 50% of your HP, you can stealth and roll roll roll then run away. Most TRs do that everytime, which is why it's the class with less deaths on leaderboard. If my GWF ends up with 50% HPs because he makes a wrong move and gets proned, it's dead a few seconds later. You can go unstoppable and try to sprint away, but while doing so, ranged classes can still kill you, because sprint does literally nothing to mitigate damage nowadays, and same unstoppable. A GF can rotate me through my unstoppable and still get away a huge chunk of my HPs. GFs if cornered and gang-banged, die. Same OPs. TRs are, and have been for most of the life of this game, the only class that can easily escape situations where most classes just die. Put a 15k GWF cornered by 3 other 15k enemies, and it will die (fast i'd say). Make the same with a 15k PvP TR, and he will kite and resist way, way longer.

TRs simply survive more than GWFs or GFs (which are supposed to be tankier/more survivable). Most TRs have also high HP pools, so the story that "we are squishy, if you catch us", is quite false.

35% DR on your TR. GWFs on same iLvL have what, 40% with def boon. Much difference...
75% deflect severity and high deflect makes your TR way more survivable than a 13k GWF. You might notice that 13k fellow GWFs die more quickly than you. It's not because you have more skills. It's because GWF DR on sprint and unstoppable is, pretty much, useless.

Ask yourself why TRs are the class that dies less in PvP, since 6-7 modules.

But back on topic: GF damage seems indeed to work in a weird way. Why do i get 20% less damage from them if i sprint away, compared to sprinting towards them? They are still hitting my shift mechanic.

hmm do gf have powers or feats that do more damaged or less based on range / proximity or combat advanage ..only thing i can thing of to account for the damage discrepancy while sprinting away vs twords ..or that you cant be marked as well for an at will combo while retreating ..or some lag window

Nope. GF has nothing based on ranged or more damage when closer. This isn't an HR.

finalfantasyac7

kalina311 said:

also on another note tenacious concealment gets nerfed next mod so its harder to maintain perma stealth

Lol, i don't think many tr's using that class feature. Well i never used that nor will ever use it

kalina311

theguiido said:

kalina311 said:

pando83 said:

finalfantasyac7 said:

Incorrect. Doesn't matter what class you are. You can't do anything when proned.
Tr can't use ITC when proned. So 1 unlucky move and either you lose 50% or more of your hp or you're dead by 1 rotation.
Stealth ? You guys giving stealth too much credit.
Gf, gwf, hr, op can still see stealthed tr's by marking them

With one difference: TRs can non-stop chain stealth/ITC/smoke bomb leaving very, very small openings. If you fail your rotation you can die. If you get proned and lose 50% of your HP, you can stealth and roll roll roll then run away. Most TRs do that everytime, which is why it's the class with less deaths on leaderboard. If my GWF ends up with 50% HPs because he makes a wrong move and gets proned, it's dead a few seconds later. You can go unstoppable and try to sprint away, but while doing so, ranged classes can still kill you, because sprint does literally nothing to mitigate damage nowadays, and same unstoppable. A GF can rotate me through my unstoppable and still get away a huge chunk of my HPs. GFs if cornered and gang-banged, die. Same OPs. TRs are, and have been for most of the life of this game, the only class that can easily escape situations where most classes just die. Put a 15k GWF cornered by 3 other 15k enemies, and it will die (fast i'd say). Make the same with a 15k PvP TR, and he will kite and resist way, way longer.

TRs simply survive more than GWFs or GFs (which are supposed to be tankier/more survivable). Most TRs have also high HP pools, so the story that "we are squishy, if you catch us", is quite false.

35% DR on your TR. GWFs on same iLvL have what, 40% with def boon. Much difference...
75% deflect severity and high deflect makes your TR way more survivable than a 13k GWF. You might notice that 13k fellow GWFs die more quickly than you. It's not because you have more skills. It's because GWF DR on sprint and unstoppable is, pretty much, useless.

Ask yourself why TRs are the class that dies less in PvP, since 6-7 modules.

But back on topic: GF damage seems indeed to work in a weird way. Why do i get 20% less damage from them if i sprint away, compared to sprinting towards them? They are still hitting my shift mechanic.

hmm do gf have powers or feats that do more damaged or less based on range / proximity or combat advanage ..only thing i can thing of to account for the damage discrepancy while sprinting away vs twords ..or that you cant be marked as well for an at will combo while retreating ..or some lag window

Nope. GF has nothing based on ranged or more damage when closer. This isn't an HR.

right but @pando83 exampled observation was/based on his heading/ orientation and proximity/range to the gf

aka noticing he taked less damage unstoppable running away far from the gf then running towards and close to the gf ..

the other thought i had was marking the target and following up with at will which the gf cannot do once the gwf sprint away .. but might be cause of the lag band/timing /and hitting the gwf while spiriting towards

theredgodz

I like lion hahh prone then bull charge bye bye buddy.

Now lets be honest as a well built tr is a pain two trs are death to a gf 90% of the time.

So while I'm fairly confident we can 1v1 with the best, a couple of your mate makes life unpleasant.... see we do have a weakness hahah.

jonkoca

Classic "let's deflect the conversation" tactics.

This thread is about the GF, primarily in PvP.

Facts:

GF has one of the best prones in the game.
GF, self buffed, has the second best burst damage in the game.
GF, with shield up, is very tanky.
GF is also, because cryptic, one of the fastest movers in the game.
GF has all these things in one build, without major sacrifices.

Can you deny any of the above things are true..?

It is the consensus of all the other classes that this is a wee bit too much of an advantage, and the GF class should get a balance pass.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

kalina311

jonkoca said:

Classic "let's deflect the conversation" tactics.

This thread is about the GF, primarily in PvP.

Facts:

GF has one of the best prones in the game.
GF, self buffed, has the second best burst damage in the game.
GF, with shield up, is very tanky.
GF is also, because cryptic, one of the fastest movers in the game.
GF has all these things in one build, without major sacrifices.

Can you deny any of the above things are true..?

It is the consensus of all the other classes that this is a wee bit too much of an advantage, and the GF class should get a balance pass.

not all gf builds and paths can have this / do this at the same time gf supporters will say
also they dont have many gap closers so some classes can endlessly kite them however never kill them are merely a mosquito


what about the dreaded double or triple mark + double daily / shield cancel animation semantics ..*drops mike*
creating no windows of opportunity / openings as well ..

time to talk about the elephant in the room .....double dailies guys and animation cancelling particularity abused on some classes in pvp giving unfair advantage

rabbit

jonkoca said:

Classic "let's deflect the conversation" tactics.

This thread is about the GF, primarily in PvP.

Facts:

GF has one of the best prones in the game.
GF, self buffed, has the second best burst damage in the game.
GF, with shield up, is very tanky.
GF is also, because cryptic, one of the fastest movers in the game.
GF has all these things in one build, without major sacrifices.

Can you deny any of the above things are true..?

It is the consensus of all the other classes that this is a wee bit too much of an advantage, and the GF class should get a balance pass.

Except 1st all others not true. Self buff have all classes and HR have one of the best with trapper/archery path. Try to shield up while dazing with hr or with smoke bomb or with CB, shield bugged as hell, always drop, visual active but in real its not block, they never gonna fix it. Best movers? its just lol not true.
Im for balance, but than balance all others classes. HR dazing/piercing(remove it from game) tr perma stealth/dazing smoke bomb, deflect severity. Soon in new mod im sure many gonna complain about new CW wich gonna SS crit again and idk if still CW ignores 66% of tenacy.

wdj40

Why has my post been deleted from this thread?

There was nothing wrong with my post.... Please remove every other post in this thread that happens to mention anything other than a GF only if that is the case!!!!!!

This thread is in the PvP section of the forums, NOT the GF section. I will talk about other classes in this specific forum if I so chose to.

kalina311

cw ignored 66% tenacity for the sake of control powers and only cause their duration on players were nerfed in pvp way back before
tenacity came into play ..cause people were complaining about excessively long choacks (extended by powers being on tab ) and hold times and prones with the meat ball etc and because reduce durating were already hard coded on power the devs opted for a 66% extra penetrations

but the chart goes from 0 to 300 (every 100 representing 1 second )for ms of control duration ...so technically this 66% adds a couple more .1 of a second incraments for each 10 points ..somewhere roughly around .2 for .6 of a second ...

it is was the old days the player would be held for like 4 -5 seconds .. instead of a bonus .2- .6 seconds they ways it is this now (except potentially on that first cc hit when no stacks are up with the new system ) ..

that further got nerved by tenacity cc control resists ...and ultimately the broken cc resist stacking mechanism we have now in pvp ..you can still see this today on some power descriptions with a are listed as half as effective on player on pvp etc ..and some were ninja nerfed as well

theguiido

jonkoca said:

Classic "let's deflect the conversation" tactics.

This thread is about the GF, primarily in PvP.

Facts:

GF has one of the best prones in the game.
GF, self buffed, has the second best burst damage in the game.
GF, with shield up, is very tanky.
GF is also, because cryptic, one of the fastest movers in the game.
GF has all these things in one build, without major sacrifices.

Can you deny any of the above things are true..?

It is the consensus of all the other classes that this is a wee bit too much of an advantage, and the GF class should get a balance pass.

GF has to sacrifice EVERYTHING unlike most classes to do the damage it can just to be viable in PvP. You have to sacrifice everything survivability wise and go straight damage. You can't move like a Sword-master if you want to do maximum damage so you lose mobility, you can't be as tanky as a Protector, so you lose survivability you have very long cool-downs, no temp hp like a paladin, no 360 CC resistant shield like a paladin, our shields can be flanked very easily unlike a Oath bound Paladins Sanctuary, DPS GF's are one of the squishiest types of classes in PvP. (unlike the DPS)

Actual Facts:

-GF with shield up is decently tanky at best. Very tanky is not true. (SoD, HR Piercing Damage, GWF's Atwills, CW Ray of Enfeeblement+ Disintegrate aren't even all of the examples I can give to show you how "tanky" a GF is with shield up.) You get shredded even with it up.

-Bull Charge is nice prone yes, but HR's have Boar Charge too which prones longer than GF Bull Charge. TR's Hateful Knifes lasts waaaay longer than Bull Charge, and CW's Ice Storm lasts way more than a Bull Charge. I'm not going to continue this list because I'd be here for awhile.

-Mark has a cast time. Meaning you can be killed or CC'd during it depending on how much you have to turn.

-All of our Atwills, Encounters, and even Our SHIFT/RB (Mark) are exploited by TR's and HR's I have video proof in another thread.

-Dazing Strike and other CC's can break our shield just by jumping up and moving slightly to the side.

-GF can still be perma CC'd and has no way to defend against it because the shield is exploitable, can't pop the shield up or proc Menace if you are perma Disabled or Dazed or Prone, or Rooted, or Stunned, etc.

-GF already received a rework in MOD 10 Which destroyed (Knights Challenge, Combat Superiority, Bull Charge, Into The Fray, Tide of Iron, Enforced Threat, Lunging Strike, Commanders Strike, Villains Menace, Nerfed the AP gain from Crushing Surge, Anvil of Doom). Or did people forget??

-GF (unlike the OP) has nothing that scales with it. No power, no recovery, nothing. Tactician is seen as a joke, and so is Protector.

-Lets not forget GF shield still doesn't work, and that after you are prone or CC'd at all their is a huge time frame where GF shield isn't up. (When it's supposed to).

So yeah, it shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone if it has no tanking abilities. It's an Off Tank, Tanking Qualities, but makes up for everything it loses which is A LOT and turns it into either self buffs, or damage. GF is not a Paladin. It's a Melee Fighter that is a Buffer. Melee= More Damage than Range.

What are people going to say next, nerf the weapon damage? good luck holding agro anymore in PvE, and doing any damage at all. Want to go back to mod 5?