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AOE DPS Test showing incredible disparity in DPS levels
btairborne
Member Posts: 352 Arc User
Hello to the Devs -
Following is an Area of Effect DPS (Damage per second) test running Dread Legion skirmish SOLO. Below are the results using ACT, subtracting the portals portion of the skirmish because this part involved too much running around and class mobility is not the same. I then adjusted DPS to match companion bonuses from my TR who had the most cumulative damage bonuses. I also compared DPS using my OP as baseline. I used my best results rather than an average for this test.
Weapon Enchants tested: Trans Lightning, Trans Vorpal, and Trans Dread.
Bondings used: All Rank 12 offense slots
Characters tested (all fully DPS specced):
IL 13004 OP / +10% Companion bonus damage (Archons+Siege Master)
IL 12808 TR / +24% Companion bonus damage
IL 12537 HR / +12% Companion bonus damage
IL 12388 GF / +3 Companion bonus damage
IL 12452 GWF / +10% Companion bonus damage
Class / Best DPS / Companion Adjusted DPS / Adj % over OP Baseline
OP / 118.1k / 134.6k (+14%) / N/A
TR / 160.1k / 160.1k (no adj) / +18.9%
HR / 184.4k / 206.5k (+12%) / +53.4%
GF / 189.1k / 228.8k (+21%) / +70.0%
GWF / 270.5k / 308.3k (+14%) / +129.0%
Additional notes:
All weapons were River District complete sets. All artifacts and artifact equipment were Legendary. Difference of IL was from companion level and enchantment levels.
Parity in Primary Artifact were not achieved. TR used Wheel of Elements, HR used Eye of the Giant, OP used Sigil of the Devoted Cleric. Otherwise Sigil of the Great Weapon Fighter was used. WOE has about 5-10% overall AOE DPS over EoftG from what I tested and I would expect 10-20% over SofGWF.
Also in IMO more equal gear in enchantments would probably give the GWF and GF another at least 10% more dps and the HR 5%.
Observations:
1. TR: AOE is extremely low when compared to GWF (+92.6% so almost double the dps). Although I don't have data to prove it, I have found GWF single target DPS to be extremely comparable to TR as well.
2. OP and GF: Although both tanks, when they are DPS specced the GF is outperforming the OP by around 70% with AOE damage.
3. GF: Out performs all true DPS classes tested with AOE damage except for GWF.
4. GWF: AOE damage is off the charts compared to other classes.
Conclusions:
Although HR and OP seems very well balanced, TRs are comparatively weak dps and are not attractive to groups or people who know the above. GFs feel very much too powerful compared to OPs. GWFs are like playing a god-like character compared to other classes.
Question to the Devs:
Is this how DPS levels were envisioned and if so why is that fair to players?
Any DEV pms on specifics will be answered.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@terramak
@dreadnaught#5263
@chaidrin#2320
@nitocris83
@asterdahl
@mimicking#6533
(Edited to add additional notes and clearer conclusions)
Following is an Area of Effect DPS (Damage per second) test running Dread Legion skirmish SOLO. Below are the results using ACT, subtracting the portals portion of the skirmish because this part involved too much running around and class mobility is not the same. I then adjusted DPS to match companion bonuses from my TR who had the most cumulative damage bonuses. I also compared DPS using my OP as baseline. I used my best results rather than an average for this test.
Weapon Enchants tested: Trans Lightning, Trans Vorpal, and Trans Dread.
Bondings used: All Rank 12 offense slots
Characters tested (all fully DPS specced):
IL 13004 OP / +10% Companion bonus damage (Archons+Siege Master)
IL 12808 TR / +24% Companion bonus damage
IL 12537 HR / +12% Companion bonus damage
IL 12388 GF / +3 Companion bonus damage
IL 12452 GWF / +10% Companion bonus damage
Class / Best DPS / Companion Adjusted DPS / Adj % over OP Baseline
OP / 118.1k / 134.6k (+14%) / N/A
TR / 160.1k / 160.1k (no adj) / +18.9%
HR / 184.4k / 206.5k (+12%) / +53.4%
GF / 189.1k / 228.8k (+21%) / +70.0%
GWF / 270.5k / 308.3k (+14%) / +129.0%
Additional notes:
All weapons were River District complete sets. All artifacts and artifact equipment were Legendary. Difference of IL was from companion level and enchantment levels.
Parity in Primary Artifact were not achieved. TR used Wheel of Elements, HR used Eye of the Giant, OP used Sigil of the Devoted Cleric. Otherwise Sigil of the Great Weapon Fighter was used. WOE has about 5-10% overall AOE DPS over EoftG from what I tested and I would expect 10-20% over SofGWF.
Also in IMO more equal gear in enchantments would probably give the GWF and GF another at least 10% more dps and the HR 5%.
Observations:
1. TR: AOE is extremely low when compared to GWF (+92.6% so almost double the dps). Although I don't have data to prove it, I have found GWF single target DPS to be extremely comparable to TR as well.
2. OP and GF: Although both tanks, when they are DPS specced the GF is outperforming the OP by around 70% with AOE damage.
3. GF: Out performs all true DPS classes tested with AOE damage except for GWF.
4. GWF: AOE damage is off the charts compared to other classes.
Conclusions:
Although HR and OP seems very well balanced, TRs are comparatively weak dps and are not attractive to groups or people who know the above. GFs feel very much too powerful compared to OPs. GWFs are like playing a god-like character compared to other classes.
Question to the Devs:
Is this how DPS levels were envisioned and if so why is that fair to players?
Any DEV pms on specifics will be answered.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@terramak
@dreadnaught#5263
@chaidrin#2320
@nitocris83
@asterdahl
@mimicking#6533
(Edited to add additional notes and clearer conclusions)
Post edited by btairborne on
1
Comments
I am not sure this is "relevant" or good testing, since Dread Legion is an easy skirmish.
Any moderately geared character breathes on the mobs, and the mobs die, turning this into a "who touches the mobs first with their attacks" fest. Erm... no.
GF is pretty ridiculous on single target, I won't lie, but GF suffers on AoE fights. Our AoE tools aren't as strong as GWF (GF WMS doesn't have the benefit of double attack speed and GF is at halved damage potential on mobs due to no KC), although we compensate with amazing single target burst DPS.
I challenge any DPS GF to clear eSP mob sections faster than a SS CW of the likes of Freedom or Sharp (bosses I won't talk about, since this thread is on AoE damage potential). No.
GWF is jack of all trades DPS.
It's not like CW, which specializes in AoE and suffers on single, or TR, which suffers on AoE but specializes in single.
GWF DPSes everything well, but trades this off for lack of versatility (then again, lack of versatility is a GWF issue as a whole). If you're talking about damage buffs like Air Archon, Siege Master, Earth Archon, those are multiplicative.
The decision to publish results of Dread Skirmish SOLO is debatable I understand. But I did not max it out, although the GWF is close. Everything took a rotation of abilities at least.
Well my results pretty much contradict what you think about GF AOE damage. I guess you don't know everything about GFs after all.
Also CW is not included in the test and Jack of All trades meaning is a generalist. GWF is defintitely a specialist in single target and AOE damage both, just not necessarily highest in both (not enough data).
Thanks though for the tip on multiplicative damage bonuses.
Sorry to not be more specific but let's just say I used the most known and recognized builds and suggested best powers straight from all the Class guides. I also tested for best combos to find the best numbers. I have been at this for weeks.
I would consider myself expert in all 5 classes especially as far as finding the highest DPS potential solo.
Played time: TR over 25 days, OP over 21 days, HR over 18 days, GWF over 14 days and GF over 10 days.
Anyway if the Devs want to know something in a PM I will tell them.
2. ACT shows damage and not HP removal as paingiver, so the HP on the mobs is not as relevant. Easy or hard will only differentiate burst vs sustained. But both can be normalized to general average. So no issue there too....
This is in theory or in practice ? Have you seen a recent test of GWF vs TR, for example, for single target (no mobs) ? One without party and one with a party.
Single target is easier to test, and yet..... True, but the difference is ~1%, so not what make or kill this test.
~-~-~-~-~
Not saying the test is valid or not. But saying that some test is not valid just because X is better at Y than Z, without anything behind the "just because" is not exactly valid counter argument.
And no, I've ran with X and he beat Y, wouldn't just work either.
I was shocked myself because I didn't see it in my normal playing.
This is the sort of thing you wouldn't find in a group though.
Remember Into the Fray buff would be affecting the HR too so he wouldn't be out-dpsed in a group.
Not only that but Aspect of the Pack artifact offhand power would be giving a nice bonus you don't see here because it relies on having allies.
Just to be clear, as someone who mains a Pally I am absolutely fine with their DPS positioning and think it's about right.
I'm not surprised about the TR position but I would like to see a test done for single target though as dungeon bosses are where the DPS really counts.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
> I have a hard time buying that a *good* HR would be out-dps'd by a GF. A very hard time. I know you think you are an expert on all classes, but are you REALLY??
Actually the results of the OP match my experience in a solo situation, at least if the HR is a Trapper (may be different with combat).
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
nuff said
@spideymt
It's a burst dps test for moderate level characters and should generalize. If i take on something like ETOS there is too much dodging that would be needed and it would skew the results.
Kessels is an option I had too but it takes longer. I still may do it.
This reminds me of a Glabrezu fight in WOD where my TR had 256k dps and a comparable IL GWF had 265k dps according to ACT. As the fight ended in about 20 sec(?) due to our high scores I would characterize it as burst single target dps. That and other results on boss fights and dragons tells me the single target DPS between the two classes is very close. The AOE difference is a gulf.
Why would you remove the part about running around and class mobility when it is so important for a damage dealer class? The class that gets first to the enemies will potentially deal more damage to them. Even if they are not in the area of the character, the fact that they get closer to farthest enemies faster than others means that they will end up dealing more damage overall. It doesn't matter how hard you hit if you are unable to hit your enemy. However, I understand that this might not be so important if you are running solo but it does matters a lot when you are running with others and the balance is aimed for running dungeons, not soloing a skirmish.
Then you should bring 4 different tests, using each enchantment in each class and one without enchantments. Why? Because the enchantments might be overperforming depending on the class using it. If that's the case, you are adding that external factor to the AoE DPS test that you are running trying to show the disparity between classes. You are supposed to show that the class itself is not well balanced, regardless of the enchantment being used. Then we can also compare how much AoE DPS is being granted by them. Another example, GWF used to run Vorpal until the recent change to Lightning, this obviously increased their AoE DPS. Fixing the enchantments would reduce the difference between them.
One thing that most people doesn't understand is that item level divided everyone in brackets. Just like you would see differences between classes in lower levels (1-70), you will also see them depending on their item level. It is not fair to compare each one of them around 12k ilvl or lower because that's a low level bracket. Each class have different class features, encounter powers, etc that will bring a different advantage in comparison to others at the same level. I'll give you an example, a GWF can get very high critical chance using Weapon Master or a CW using Eye of The Storm but as soon as you are already at 15k+ ilvl when you notice that you already achieved 100% critical chance, you can start using different class features, ability scores, races, etc. At higher item levels, classes get closer, not the other way around.
Why are you comparing every class to the OP? That's very limited due to many different reasons. Do you realize that if we start complaining that there are classes better at something that others, we will end up having classes that will be basically the same when compared to each other? I can go to this Dread Legion skirmish and say that every class took less time in dying than the OP and it would be fair, it's exactly what you are doing now.
Just for the sake of comparison, do you even know that a maxed OP can get up to 5kk in Temporary Hit Points? Also can be easily one of the top damage dealers running a dungeon like ToNG/FBI when properly built? Some classes are just better at something than others and people enjoy playing them for their differences, always trying to maximize their potential. If you are running ToNG you can easily finish it in less than 20 minutes running with only 1 DPS and 4 Support and that DPS can be GWF, HR, TR, CW or a GF and won't be achieved solely based on the main damage dealer but also the buffs/debuffs and anything else have spend your AD on.
People who is already maxed, who have seen what every class can bring to the table, they don't spend their time looking for nerfs or what others can do or not because you can beat end-game easily with almost any combination as long as you know how to use your character.
Finally, keep in mind that I do not intent to attack you personally or the info that you brought us. I just want to say that there are far more variables that need to be checked before condemning how unbalanced can be the game at some point and each one of them must be considered.
I removed the data of the portals phase because it represented a different kind of fight and I wanted to keep just the same kind of data. If I wanted to know how mobility affected it I could just look at that. That might be interesting.
I think weapon enchantments are an intrinsic part of the class and not testing with them would be a mistake resulting in not real numbers. I did test each class with each enchantment though. It is interesting how much of a difference this usually makes and with large power sharing I am sure even more.
Classes were all basically 12.4k and above, RD weapons, Trans enchants, Rank 12 bondings, Rank 9+ enchants, maxed out artifacts and equipment, and nearly same boons (1 or 2 less). It is definitely a bracket, but not middle and I felt they were in the same one. I don't think it's fair to say you cannot test unless you are BIS, nor believe it for a second. I also don't buy the theory that class DPS becomes closer as you get higher IL. From building these classes slowly over the last 2 years it seems to me it has only increased.
I included the OP because..why not? He was available to test and I wanted to compare. I have a hard time believing they will be among top DPS in TONG or FBI though. Maybe #2 with 1 real DPS class sure.
By the way I respect your knowledge and work with the GWF, but I don't think you can really relate to the problem. You have been BIS for as long as I have playing the game. This seems to go for a lot of BIS people. They just don't want to see anything change despite the evidence.
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
Weapon enchantments aren't an intrinsic part of the class. You balance a character and then you can also balance an enchantment separately. What you are saying is that a character must be balanced around an enchantment weapon then you would have a problem where you can't bring new weapon enchantments that might be better or worse than that one that balanced the class or people would start screaming for buffs/nerfs or you would also see an scenario where the class itself is underperforming a lot but it's useful thanks only to the enchantment and that's not right.
I never said that you cannot test unless you are BIS, I said that there are too many variables that must be taken into consideration. Do not twist my words. You are also assuming that I'm saying things based on feelings, in fact, you are asumming mistakenly many different things. A GWF isn't the only character that I play, I'm BIS with a GF and a SW too, also an alt of every other class between 10k-13k so unlike you I've passed for every item level bracket which allows me to have my own understanding of the game without requiring to ask others for a confirmation. I don't assume things nor speak of them based on feelings, I have experienced them, I run my own tests, numbers and formulas.
I said that the OP can be one of the top damage dealers, I didn't say specifically that they will be the top one. Finally, you mentioned that since I'm a BIS player, I have the problem that I don't want to see anything change. Why are you in such a defensive position and assuming so many things? I don't care about changes, I will adapt to any upcoming nerf/buffs because they are inevitable. If you read my post, you will see that I never said anything about being against changes, I said that your test had to be done in a different way, including many more variables otherwise it is not strong enough to be considered as "evidence".
People will gravitate around the best solutions and that's where you need to balance stuff. I think the OP was right in choosing the best enchantment for each class as a benchmark.
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
A base AOE dps would no doubt be done by the devs if they considered changing anything so I don't know why you are so worked up about it.
I don't believe "there are too many factors to consider". The only one I believe you brought up was using Weapon master (as opposed to Steel Blitz I assume), and which I considered and found a non-issue. Even with Trans Vorpal. You should use Steel blitz well before 100% crit from what I found.
Look I don't want this to get personal. I also have all character classes from 11.5k to 13k too. I enjoy testing, and I consider everything I can think of. I have you feedback, thanks. This was to the devs anyway.