About new broken TR

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  • micky1p00
    micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,540 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    grrouper said:

    micky1p00 said:

    grrouper said:


    Well they fixed the one issue but are you saying SoD is no longer a broken power ? There are no bugs involved in it ? Many have tested withing the last month and there is plenty of talk on how it ignore shifts and immunities so was that fixed or is that working as intended or still broken. Then again a simple ~ answers everything

    First, no, I'm saying that what you linked, is the fixed issue, and has no relevance to whatever you are trying to say.
    So keeping linking it and arguing over it wont prove nor disprove anything you want to say.

    Second, counting the damage ignoring immunities, shifts and tenacity, is what counting damage pre-mitigation. It's what it was changed into:


    Shadow of Demise now calculates its damage based on the damage dealt before the enemy's damage resistance is taken into account, and no longer benefits twice from buffs or debuffs on an enemy.

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/games/neverwinter/news/detail/10608104-patch-notes:-version:-nw.85.20170711b.10

    You can argue that that's is OP, or not balanced or what not. But unless said otherwise, that's the change.
    Also this is not the same as SoD proc not respecting Iframes. That thread was about the damage accumulation and not SoD proc itself.
    grrouper said:

    Then again a simple ~ answers everything

    You are looking for a discussion or an attitude pissing contest ?!

    But never mind, not sure why I even ventured to this side of the forums. Using recent threads page has it's risks I guess when a simple minor clarification goes into who knows what.
    What i link was issues that are going on with SoD not just what was fixed what others are still finding out . You sure can try to take my comments out of context and twist them to how you see fit. Still you have yet to answer is it still bugged or broken or is it doing exactly what it should be doing ? Oh and BTW it all has relevance when the topic is new broken TR..Also the link was about SoD still having a bug and was posted on the 18 of august well after the fix that the dev mentions later on the thread so like i said stop twisting words to how you see fit.
    I'm not sure why you ask specifically me about SoD. Or why I'm supposed to answer that, even thought that I actually did. I'm not a dev, I can only interpret and give opinion.
    My first comment to you was that in your link to demonmonger, the devs response was mainly about something else. The poster there didn't understand how pre-mitigation works. And was actually clerified by the link to the original preview thread.


    LoL, I should have known this thread would want the gory details!

    OK, here follows TMI for my fellow math nerds:
    * Before the piercing changes, SD tracked all the damage you did (after resistances) and then did 50% of that (ignoring resistances).
    * With the big piercing fix, SD did 50% of damage *including* resistances (but had a big bundle of ArPen attached to it to make it piercing). That meant it was now double-dipping.
    * In the most recent change, I made SD track all the damage you did BEFORE resistances, and then do 50% of that (including resistances, and with its big bundle of ArPen -- ie, I kept the piercing fix). So now it is single-dipping again.
    * It turns out this is how HR Piercing Blade was working already (tracking damage you do before resistances, and, with the piercing fix, having the bonus damage include resistances, with a bundle of ArPen). That's why PB didn't need a further fix (post-piercing changes) but SD did.

    So what this means is if your target *has* some (net) resistances, the change will make SD do more damage. That won't matter in PvE with full ArPen, but it will happen in PvP (the global resist if nothing else). But if your target has (net) vulnerability (and remember that, in-engine, vulnerability is basically negative resistance), SD will do less damage than it did during that brief period on live between the piercing changes and this recent fix, when it was double-dipping.

    P.S. Nothing to do with either the 3lvl delta reduction or topple. At least, not intentionally. :P

    (The capitalization is in the origin)

    It's not up to me to say if iframes should be included or not.
    Piercing Blade behaves the same, but the damage is in the same tick so you get to ignore both or none.
    With SoD the damage instances have up to 6 seconds seperation, so you can dodge one, the other, both or none, For SoD itself you are supposed to iframe / dodge the proc itself, coming 6 seconds after the setup and total accumulation.
    This is what pre-mitigation means. And from the wording that was the intended change. If you want for clarification if the interaction with iframes is intended or not, ask the devs.... but every indication is that it is.

    Or if you want to ask for it to be nerfed, and not to include the dodged damage, then ask, but the pre-resistances is intended.

    More so, in the link you yourself linked, the OP didn't understand the pre-mitigation correctly, and later understood it.
    This is exactly the change that I was quoting from the patch-notes, and there it's clarification.
  • micky1p00
    micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,540 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    The SoD change to pre-resistances and piercing damage, and combined with ArP resistance, brings a concept change, as far as I see it:

    If once when an executioner TR attacks, and starts SoD you want to mitigate as much as you can during those 6 seconds by any means, dodging, running, CC, shielding, etc... to get less total damage (less damage would have been dealt at the end of the 6 seconds).

    Now it's the opposite, it's more beneficial not to waste all the dodges (or whatever non defense-stat resistance the class has) during the 6 seconds, and take the damage straight on, on the defense stat (banking on TRs lower ArP and your self heal) and save the dodge or the non ArP mitigation (separate layers) to the 6 seconds SoD proc itself.
    If you will be able to count correctly, and will be able to actually use dodge at that time (either because of CC, or just timing and skill), it's a different matter and a more overall balance issue.
    Post edited by micky1p00 on
  • marnival
    marnival Member Posts: 1,432 Arc User

    I doubt most NW PVP players can count to 6, imho.

    For one that thinks Gf block makes Gf able to take to much damage and argue that ITC hide 85% deflect severity together with either endless cc chains or heavy burst piercing damage is ok I doubt you can count to 6 tbh... only to be fair....
  • andre#8369
    andre#8369 Member Posts: 61 Arc User
    Yeah SoD is working as intended but that doesnt mean it shouldn't be reprogrammed. With that logic there shouldn't be any touches to gfs since they are as intended lol
  • demonmonger
    demonmonger Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,350 Arc User
    > @defiantone99 said:
    > Yeah SoD is working as intended but that doesnt mean it shouldn't be reprogrammed. With that logic there shouldn't be any touches to gfs since they are as intended lol
    >
    > Ya, but these guys have been going on for years trying to get TR nerfed. Now they are just like sharks that smell blood, due to the SE and CB nerfs. They will not stop until TR is a dead class.

    I think they are secretly trying to kill the entire game
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  • demonmonger
    demonmonger Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,350 Arc User
    Looking for gfx6 for elol
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  • marnival
    marnival Member Posts: 1,432 Arc User

    Yeah SoD is working as intended but that doesnt mean it shouldn't be reprogrammed. With that logic there shouldn't be any touches to gfs since they are as intended lol

    I suggested bull-stun/daze instead of kb, fix dubble mark and that I certainly see the reason to adjust KC but mr Demonmonger are blind to anything but the big Nerfbat to is endless crusade against the Gf class( can remind that my main are Hr though).
  • trgluestickz
    trgluestickz Member Posts: 1,136 Arc User
    I agree that GFs do an awful lot of damage to justify them being labeled as a tank class but I haven't seen much evidence that GFs are leading the charge against the TR class. I have certainly seen some GFs hate on TRs but from where I'm sitting, TR gets a lot of hate from every class. I see no reason to bash GFs in a completly unrelated thread.
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  • rayrdan
    rayrdan Member Posts: 5,410 Arc User
    @kreatyve
    courage breaker got nerfed and rightly so at least in pvp.
    can this thread now be closed?
  • trgluestickz
    trgluestickz Member Posts: 1,136 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    rayrdan said:

    @kreatyve
    courage breaker got nerfed and rightly so at least in pvp.
    can this thread now be closed?

    This thread wasn't only about CB. Also As I pointed out, the nerf to CB will not be sufficent to fix CB. CB can be used more than 5 times before the first CB wears off already and that's not even with maxed out recovery. You will likely be able to maintain a perma CB even after the nerf so it won't do much. The exception would be if the devs lowered CB's duration by such a large amount that people would completly stop slotting this power. So either this nerf will overnerf CB or not nerf it enough.
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  • krutious
    krutious Member Posts: 16 Arc User

    morenthar said:

    I'm not sure how anyone can defend every reactionary nerf from devs. Yeah, sometimes a power needs immediate attention. Sometimes the problem is systematic.



    In this case, it's systematic. Courage Breaker is perfectly fine. Hell, you can even argue that it's underpowered compared to other dailies.



    What makes it so powerful is the fact that it can be used so darn often. Dailies are a systematic problem across the board.



    I know I saw a dev say that AP gain and dailies were going to be addressed at some point. If and when that happens, Courage Breaker will be just another power thrown into the dumpster.

    Your bit about the devs having posted that they want to adress AP gain and dailies has me hopeful. Can you tell me where you saw that? If that's true, that changes things considerably.

    I am well aware that daily power issues including CB are a systematic issue brought on by too much AP gain/recovery. You are right that CB is not OP because of its mechanics but rather how often it can be used. The AP gain/recovery problem will only get worse when rank 14 enchantments and higher stats from PVE gear become the norm in PVP too.

    This is a fact I have mentioned in the past but I never actually expected the devs to invest in a systematic fix for it. Corperations tend to go for short term cheep solutions over systematic fixes that require more up front investment but would prevent the issue from comming up ever again. It always did boggle my mind too since this way of thinking leads to having to pay more money on it later in an endless game of whack-a-mole and yet corperations still do this all the time.
    With all the people already complaining about CB on the TR and how few people have brought up powercreep from AP gain/recovery, I thought for sure that the devs would just nerf courage breaker no matter what I said. The best I thought the TR class was going to get was to try to guide the way CB gets adjusted and try to get the primary issues with the TR class fixed in return for changing our crutch power.

    Assuming the devs actually tackle the AP gain/recovery issue systematically then I agree, courage breaker doesn't need a nerf.

    If the devs don't tackle AP gain/recovery systematically, then they need to change CB's mechanics to something else. I am not in favor of simply nerfing CB because so far I have not seen a viable nerf proposed. Every nerf brought up on the TR rework thread would either not nerf CB enough or nerf it to the point of becoming useless. CB needs to be completly redone if anything is to be done to this power directly.
    kalina311 said:

    @sgrantdev Cryptic Developer said (courage breaker will be NERFED) : D

    Hey all,

    Just wanted to make a quick post with a couple of updates
    Courage breaker's duration has been lowered for PvP targets. The intent of courage breaker was not to allow a rogue to lock down someone movement wise. This is an initial change to see if it helps to balance out the concerns without significantly altering the utility of the power. If we still feel there is an issue we will make some other tweaks based on the feedback given


    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1234304/official-feedback-thread-pvp-changes/p4


    :D complain enough and they hear lol thanks devs

    maybe the powers name should be changed to coward breaker now lol ...for people with learn to play issues that were using it a a crutch

    While I am happy the devs are at least paying attention to the CB issue, I can't say I'm happy about the fix they are proposing. I am not in favor of simply reducing CB's duration in PVP. TRs can use CB 5 times or more in 10 seconds already. CB lasts 10 seconds (more when you factor in control bonus) so that's 5+ CBs used before the first one even wears off. In order to make CB short enough to not allow perma CC, you would have to make it so short that nobody would choose it over other TR daily powers in PVP. It would then become just another TR power gathering dust on the shelf.

    I will mention that the devs may not be to blame for this idea, it first appeared on the TR rework thread before CB had been discussed in more depth. Its one of the only ideas from the TR rework thread that really needed to be pulled. Me and @blur had been discussing a possible replacement idea right before the piercing damage nerf was announced. It was intended to be added to the thread "TR compiled Balance Sugestions" but never was.
    CB 5 times or more in 10seconds really?????,get real
  • andre#8369
    andre#8369 Member Posts: 61 Arc User
    > @krutious said:
    > I'm not sure how anyone can defend every reactionary nerf from devs. Yeah, sometimes a power needs immediate attention. Sometimes the problem is systematic.
    >
    >
    >
    > In this case, it's systematic. Courage Breaker is perfectly fine. Hell, you can even argue that it's underpowered compared to other dailies.
    >
    >
    >
    > What makes it so powerful is the fact that it can be used so darn often. Dailies are a systematic problem across the board.
    >
    >
    >
    > I know I saw a dev say that AP gain and dailies were going to be addressed at some point. If and when that happens, Courage Breaker will be just another power thrown into the dumpster.
    >
    >
    >
    > Your bit about the devs having posted that they want to adress AP gain and dailies has me hopeful. Can you tell me where you saw that? If that's true, that changes things considerably.
    >
    > I am well aware that daily power issues including CB are a systematic issue brought on by too much AP gain/recovery. You are right that CB is not OP because of its mechanics but rather how often it can be used. The AP gain/recovery problem will only get worse when rank 14 enchantments and higher stats from PVE gear become the norm in PVP too.
    >
    > This is a fact I have mentioned in the past but I never actually expected the devs to invest in a systematic fix for it. Corperations tend to go for short term cheep solutions over systematic fixes that require more up front investment but would prevent the issue from comming up ever again. It always did boggle my mind too since this way of thinking leads to having to pay more money on it later in an endless game of whack-a-mole and yet corperations still do this all the time.
    > With all the people already complaining about CB on the TR and how few people have brought up powercreep from AP gain/recovery, I thought for sure that the devs would just nerf courage breaker no matter what I said. The best I thought the TR class was going to get was to try to guide the way CB gets adjusted and try to get the primary issues with the TR class fixed in return for changing our crutch power.
    >
    > Assuming the devs actually tackle the AP gain/recovery issue systematically then I agree, courage breaker doesn't need a nerf.
    >
    > If the devs don't tackle AP gain/recovery systematically, then they need to change CB's mechanics to something else. I am not in favor of simply nerfing CB because so far I have not seen a viable nerf proposed. Every nerf brought up on the TR rework thread would either not nerf CB enough or nerf it to the point of becoming useless. CB needs to be completly redone if anything is to be done to this power directly. @sgrantdev Cryptic Developer said (courage breaker will be NERFED) : D
    >
    > Hey all,
    >
    > Just wanted to make a quick post with a couple of updates
    > Courage breaker's duration has been lowered for PvP targets. The intent of courage breaker was not to allow a rogue to lock down someone movement wise. This is an initial change to see if it helps to balance out the concerns without significantly altering the utility of the power. If we still feel there is an issue we will make some other tweaks based on the feedback given
    >
    >
    > https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1234304/official-feedback-thread-pvp-changes/p4
    >
    >
    > :D complain enough and they hear lol thanks devs
    >
    > maybe the powers name should be changed to coward breaker now lol ...for people with learn to play issues that were using it a a crutch
    >
    > While I am happy the devs are at least paying attention to the CB issue, I can't say I'm happy about the fix they are proposing. I am not in favor of simply reducing CB's duration in PVP. TRs can use CB 5 times or more in 10 seconds already. CB lasts 10 seconds (more when you factor in control bonus) so that's 5+ CBs used before the first one even wears off. In order to make CB short enough to not allow perma CC, you would have to make it so short that nobody would choose it over other TR daily powers in PVP. It would then become just another TR power gathering dust on the shelf.
    >
    > I will mention that the devs may not be to blame for this idea, it first appeared on the TR rework thread before CB had been discussed in more depth. Its one of the only ideas from the TR rework thread that really needed to be pulled. Me and @blur had been discussing a possible replacement idea right before the piercing damage nerf was announced. It was intended to be added to the thread "TR compiled Balance Sugestions" but never was.
    >
    > CB 5 times or more in 10seconds really?????,get real

    Exactly. More like 3 times haha
  • wintersmoke
    wintersmoke Member Posts: 1,632 Arc User

    CB 5 times or more in 10seconds really?????,get real
    Multiple CB is possible, as multiple activation of any daily is possible, but only because of certain classes' (not TR's btw) action point regeneration buffs.


  • trgluestickz
    trgluestickz Member Posts: 1,136 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    krutious said:

    CB 5 times or more in 10seconds really?????,get real

    Exactly. More like 3 times haha

    Yes, you can do that, it is difficult to pull off a full 5+ but it is possible. It can even be done without maxed out recovery.
    Even if I was wrong and it was only possible to do 3 in 10 secs, you certainly could do 5+ with control bonus taken into account + new rank 14 enchantments and PVE gear stats. That, and 3 in 10 secs or less is still ridiculous and would still undermine the dev's recent nerf attempt.
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  • andre#8369
    andre#8369 Member Posts: 61 Arc User
    I was saying it as a joke lol I know its ridiculous....like sod
  • nerfcc#8605
    nerfcc#8605 Member Posts: 35 Arc User
    With the nerf to cb and cc deminishing returns I think the tr will hopefully be in a good place 12b. If you can't figure out how to avoid sod then that's your fault because it's really not that hard.
  • marnival
    marnival Member Posts: 1,432 Arc User

    With the nerf to cb and cc deminishing returns I think the tr will hopefully be in a good place 12b. If you can't figure out how to avoid sod then that's your fault because it's really not that hard.

    If you face a blind Tr on crutches you are probably right but if you face a good Tr with smoke that knows how to move and time the attacks I beg to differ and say if you do not know how to land SoD as a Tr its probably the Trs fault its really not that hard ......
  • nerfcc#8605
    nerfcc#8605 Member Posts: 35 Arc User
    It's not about me being able to land the sod I'm always going to land my sod it's about you being able to avoid it
  • nerfcc#8605
    nerfcc#8605 Member Posts: 35 Arc User
    And if you haven't figured it out I'm not that's on you I'm not going to expose a class on the forums because you cant figure it out
  • marnival
    marnival Member Posts: 1,432 Arc User

    And if you haven't figured it out I'm not that's on you I'm not going to expose a class on the forums because you cant figure it out

    If you have no dodge, if you are cought in smoke if you are hit from Hide if you are hit while knocked down, hanging in the air ...
    you must be one hell of a ahhh no your a Tr yourself with itc hide loooooong dodges etc etc I get it nm move on....
  • sirjimbofrancis
    sirjimbofrancis Member Posts: 348 Arc User
    Can we just make PVP characters fight it out with no access to feats, powers, armor, clothing, or equipment, except for a dead fish they can try to beat each other with?

    Then, maybe, focus on really important changes, like the TR rework for us TR PVE players who never see the buffs but nearly always feel the nerf?
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  • pando83
    pando83 Member Posts: 2,562 Arc User
    Just a question: If i get it right, now we must wait almost 6 seconds from when the TR starts attacking, and then use dodges or DR on separate layer. But: how are GWFs again supposed to defend against the new cheesey SoD, if they do not have dodges or DR on a separate layer? Hit the enemy with T.Fey first and hope your HP pool and self heal do the work, same as with old cheesy Shocking Execution? O.o
  • finalfantasyac7
    finalfantasyac7 Member Posts: 582 Arc User
    edited October 2017
    2 tr's with perma cc, and use daily faster then his encounter with broken SOD. I am 100% they didn't even test it out before releasing the patch.
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  • mebengalsfan#9264
    mebengalsfan#9264 Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User
    krutious said:

    Well it's about time gf,and hr had some competition,what a bunch of crybabies,fix this, nerf that,NO!! maybe make other classes stronger how about that,add power please, don't take anything else away.

    How about all PVP hits do 10K damage max. This means a 200K hit will hit only for 10K. This way fights cannot be one or two shot hits. Instead, players need to be ready for a longer battle. This is quite easy to fix and add into any game...In these maps with PVP setting on, set X paramater to cap at 10000.00 and this would reduce the crying here on PVP and make PVP more interesting.