About new broken TR

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  • demonmonger
    demonmonger Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,350 Arc User
    I noticed people come here complaining about courage breaker going through cc immunity when that is what the skill is supposed to do. Read up on skills and how they work before you cry here. Also again for shadow of demise. The skill was changed, so read up on the changes before you call it's function a bug.

    Enjoy 12b captain qq's
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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  • micky1p00
    micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,540 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    grrouper said:

    I noticed people come here complaining about courage breaker going through cc immunity when that is what the skill is supposed to do. Read up on skills and how they work before you cry here. Also again for shadow of demise. The skill was changed, so read up on the changes before you call it's function a bug.



    Enjoy 12b captain qq's

    Funny how you seem to be the one who can not read .Yet i even see you have posted on this link so what gives are they all wrong including the Dev ? https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1233758/trs-feat-shadow-of-demise-has-a-bug
    The debuff was fixed/changed a week after mod 12 went live, meaning more than ~2 months ago. And totally not relevant now. And was before this thread posted.

    It has nothing to do with CB and it's CC, nor SoD being piercing now in terms of ArP.
  • trgluestickz
    trgluestickz Member Posts: 1,136 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    morenthar said:

    I'm not sure how anyone can defend every reactionary nerf from devs. Yeah, sometimes a power needs immediate attention. Sometimes the problem is systematic.



    In this case, it's systematic. Courage Breaker is perfectly fine. Hell, you can even argue that it's underpowered compared to other dailies.



    What makes it so powerful is the fact that it can be used so darn often. Dailies are a systematic problem across the board.



    I know I saw a dev say that AP gain and dailies were going to be addressed at some point. If and when that happens, Courage Breaker will be just another power thrown into the dumpster.

    Your bit about the devs having posted that they want to adress AP gain and dailies has me hopeful. Can you tell me where you saw that? If that's true, that changes things considerably.

    I am well aware that daily power issues including CB are a systematic issue brought on by too much AP gain/recovery. You are right that CB is not OP because of its mechanics but rather how often it can be used. The AP gain/recovery problem will only get worse when rank 14 enchantments and higher stats from PVE gear become the norm in PVP too.

    This is a fact I have mentioned in the past but I never actually expected the devs to invest in a systematic fix for it. Corperations tend to go for short term cheep solutions over systematic fixes that require more up front investment but would prevent the issue from comming up ever again. It always did boggle my mind too since this way of thinking leads to having to pay more money on it later in an endless game of whack-a-mole and yet corperations still do this all the time.
    With all the people already complaining about CB on the TR and how few people have brought up powercreep from AP gain/recovery, I thought for sure that the devs would just nerf courage breaker no matter what I said. The best I thought the TR class was going to get was to try to guide the way CB gets adjusted and try to get the primary issues with the TR class fixed in return for changing our crutch power.

    Assuming the devs actually tackle the AP gain/recovery issue systematically then I agree, courage breaker doesn't need a nerf.

    If the devs don't tackle AP gain/recovery systematically, then they need to change CB's mechanics to something else. I am not in favor of simply nerfing CB because so far I have not seen a viable nerf proposed. Every nerf brought up on the TR rework thread would either not nerf CB enough or nerf it to the point of becoming useless. CB needs to be completly redone if anything is to be done to this power directly.
    kalina311 said:

    @sgrantdev Cryptic Developer said (courage breaker will be NERFED) : D

    Hey all,

    Just wanted to make a quick post with a couple of updates
    Courage breaker's duration has been lowered for PvP targets. The intent of courage breaker was not to allow a rogue to lock down someone movement wise. This is an initial change to see if it helps to balance out the concerns without significantly altering the utility of the power. If we still feel there is an issue we will make some other tweaks based on the feedback given


    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1234304/official-feedback-thread-pvp-changes/p4


    :D complain enough and they hear lol thanks devs

    maybe the powers name should be changed to coward breaker now lol ...for people with learn to play issues that were using it a a crutch

    While I am happy the devs are at least paying attention to the CB issue, I can't say I'm happy about the fix they are proposing. I am not in favor of simply reducing CB's duration in PVP. TRs can use CB 5 times or more in 10 seconds already. CB lasts 10 seconds (more when you factor in control bonus) so that's 5+ CBs used before the first one even wears off. In order to make CB short enough to not allow perma CC, you would have to make it so short that nobody would choose it over other TR daily powers in PVP. It would then become just another TR power gathering dust on the shelf.

    I will mention that the devs may not be to blame for this idea, it first appeared on the TR rework thread before CB had been discussed in more depth. Its one of the only ideas from the TR rework thread that really needed to be pulled. Me and @blur had been discussing a possible replacement idea right before the piercing damage nerf was announced. It was intended to be added to the thread "TR compiled Balance Sugestions" but never was.
    Post edited by trgluestickz on
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  • andre#8369
    andre#8369 Member Posts: 61 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    Cb is actually fine it just needs an icd like DCs hallowed ground.

    And learning to play against trs lol I'll try when im in cb and get hit for over 100K 3 times in 1 minute from sod :smiley:
  • trgluestickz
    trgluestickz Member Posts: 1,136 Arc User

    So, you want SE to not do damage, SoD to not do damage and CB to not control. What do you expect TR to do? Run around in stealth, tickling you? That is not a class anybody would want to play.

    I want SE to be turned into a strong finishing move that is viable but will not one shot you from full health down to 0. I also want to see it become viable again in PVE if possible.
    I don't want it to be so watered down that it is no longer good in PVP or PVE, like is the case right now. So yes, I want it to do damage.
    I'm thinking making it so SE does much less damage to targets above 50% health and a lot more damage to targets below 50% health could be a good place to start on fixing SE.

    As for CB I would be in favor of CB getting completly changed. This optionally could include changing it to something that does not involve cc effects at all but with the new cc diminishing returns system comming out, I would be ok with it still having some kind of cc effect.
    However, If the devs end up systematically reworking AP gain/recovery powercreep in PVP, it is very unlikely that CB will need a nerf at all.

    SOD did not need a damage buff in PVP. If our other attacks were buffed to hit harder, then SOD dps would go up with it anyway. We needed more at will damage and encounter power damage. We did not need piercing damage working off of premitigation damage, that's too much in PVP. The new SOD change is worse than the previous SE meta, only favors one TR tree, and is only a relevant dps increase for PVP TRs.
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  • trgluestickz
    trgluestickz Member Posts: 1,136 Arc User

    This is all just hype and hysteria. Courage Breaker is fine, it has always been fine. The rant was about SE. They nerf it, now it is about CB. Just learn to play against TRs.

    The complaints were about both SE and CB for quite some time. Go look at the TR rework thread and other threads that were around before the nerf to piercing damage. Even back then, most knowlegable PVP players, TRs included, considered CB worse than SE.
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  • trgluestickz
    trgluestickz Member Posts: 1,136 Arc User

    Really? I seem to remember having been flamed to death for saying SoD was bugged. TRs were saying it was WAI and should be able to do up to 60 mill damage. lol

    Was this PVE or PVP?
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  • trgluestickz
    trgluestickz Member Posts: 1,136 Arc User
    edited September 2017

    Really? I seem to remember having been flamed to death for saying SoD was bugged. TRs were saying it was WAI and should be able to do up to 60 mill damage. lol

    Was this PVE or PVP?
    Well, it could do 10s of millions in PVE, that is well over the 300k players have in PVP, I am sure.
    I don't remember hearing what that bug's effects on PVP were, that bug was only present for a week and I did not do any PVP matches that week.

    In PVE, the bug was letting TRs catch up to other classes in terms of dps, hence why so many PVE TRs wanted to keep it. They were conserned the devs had lied when they said they had plans to work on TR and didn't want the devs to take the bug away if they had no intentions of catching the TR's dps up with legit means. There is still widespread fear that the devs won't get to the TR class anytime soon so many PVE players still angry about that bug being taken away.

    @blur
    @sirjimbofrancis
    @rustlord

    Perhaps one of you could explain a little better how this bug worked. I wasn't online much that week.
    --
    PVP Rogue,
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  • trgluestickz
    trgluestickz Member Posts: 1,136 Arc User
    edited September 2017


    I will mention that the devs may not be to blame for this idea, it first appeared on the TR rework thread before CB had been discussed in more depth. Its one of the only ideas from the TR rework thread that really needed to be pulled. Me and @blur had been discussing a possible replacement idea right before the piercing damage nerf was announced. It was intended to be added to the thread "TR compiled Balance Sugestions" but never was.

    I would like to elaborate on this point some, here was the draft for the CB idea me and @blur were discussing before the TR rework thread went on hold. This idea was intended to replace our first sugestion of halving the duration of CB in PVP. It has a few issues with it as well and while certainly better than the first idea, nowadays I think it would be better to rework CB's mechanics entirely or tackle AP gain/recovery powercreep in PVP.

    rustlord said:

    In PvP we're practically begging for scraps.. running pugmades/duos with other DPS to be their CB companion (I'm really good tho, I can CB 3x in 10 seconds..... I know someone could do 5); play coward hit n run maybe we'd kill a GWF. Really I can't put a number to how much buff we need, but a little 10% here 5 % there certainly isn't going to cut it

    Btw; my resume if someone wants to run pugmade
    I'm a legendary companion with courage breaker
    Can keep 1-2 people CB between nodes indefinitely or 3 if they Ice Knife my dummy
    Special skills; i can deft strike to the CW that Ice Knifes my dummy from a tower

    xD

    @rustlord

    You comment on how many times courage breaker can be used in around 10 seconds reminded me of a potential flaw with the CB sugestion in the compilation thread.
    The sugestion was to make CB's slow/debuff last half as long in pvp.
    CB is around 10 seconds in duration before control bonus is added. The fact that CB goes through all cc resistance combined with the fact that control bonus does apply means that its longer than 10 seconds even in pvp right now.
    With the debuff/slow halved, CB would be 6 seconds bare minimum.
    For high recovery TRs, they will probably still be able to perma CB people if they so choose. Add a little control bonus, and its a gurentee that they will still be able to.
    This means our sugested nerf to CB will only make CB more difficult for TRs with low recovery but for those nearer to BIS, little would change.

    There was another sugestion brought up by @whitespicyrice (aka Rookz/Reedz) that came up much earlyer in the thread. It initially got shot down without a second thought by several people.
    The more I think about it, the more viable Rookz/Reedz sugestion for CB appears to be. Here it is:

    I will make this as simple as possible.

    Many other will agree.

    I'm sure Devs will agree.

    Cooldown on Courage Breaker. Done

    Essentially, he is sugesting that CB should have an internal cooldown in place.
    As long as the internal cooldown lasts longer than it takes for CB to wear off, this would accomplish the following 3 things:
    • You would no longer be able to stack multaple CBs onto the same target.
    • You would no longer be able to maintain CB permanantly.
    • It would accomplish fixing the issues with CB better than halving CB would.
    Ideally, this change would only apply to pvp.

    Another thing I will sugest to make it easier to set up a consistant internal cooldown is to make it so control bonus no longer applies to CB. If it pierces all control resistance then I see no reason why not to also make it so control bonus does not apply to CB.

    One more thing I will sugest is raising the damage debuff for both pvp and pve as part of this change. Its currently 54% instead of the 120% in the tooltip. I'm not sure whether or not it should be increased all the way to 120% but that is an option.

    Does anyone have a counter arguement to why this wouldn't work or a better idea?
    Note on other issues with this post:
    It was already pointed out back then that CB does not stack, it refreshes.
    I am aware of a typo where I said bare minimum halved CB would be 6 seconds, I meant to say 5 seconds.

    I also will mention a detail I gave to @blur in private after this old of mine post was made. We agreed on a 15 second ICD that begans when you activate CB. This would mean that for 5 seconds after CB ends, you can't use it again.
    Post edited by trgluestickz on
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  • trgluestickz
    trgluestickz Member Posts: 1,136 Arc User
    edited September 2017

    Cb is actually fine it just needs an icd like DCs hallowed ground.



    And learning to play against trs lol I'll try when im in cb and get hit for over 100K 3 times in 1 minute from sod :smiley:

    I see you have similar idea to the one I proposed a while back. While the ICD idea might work okish, it isn't without its flaws. As this will probably be of interest to you, I will discuss those here.

    Several people on the old thread did not like the idea of only certain daily powers getting an ICD. Daily powers are not intended to have cooldowns and the consept came across as hypocritical since other classes can also use daily powers too often. This idea garnered more support as a systemwide change to how daily powers work (giving all dailies cooldowns) but even then no consensus was reached.

    Another critque of this idea came up after my old post was made when I spoke to other PVP players about it. Many were iritated that this change did not adress CB going through all CC imunities, which is viewed as a primary issue with CB by many PVP players. The ones I spoke to knew it was an intentional mechanic but wanted to see CB's slow be changed so that all CC breaks effect it.

    The 15 second ICD was also thought to be too short since other TR CC's could just be used in between CBs to keep the target permastuned.
    --
    PVP Rogue,
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  • trgluestickz
    trgluestickz Member Posts: 1,136 Arc User
    edited September 2017

    TRs need their overpowered 75% base deflect severity turned back into 50% base just like any other class.

    I am confident TRs will be fine without their 75% deflection severity anyway so I don't really care if it changes.

    However, I will point out that the TR meta has been lifesteal + HP for a while now and people still complain about us having too many defensive capabilities.
    Last I checked all but 1 of my PVP TR freinds had 30% deflection chance and put all their eggs into lifesteal, HP, and recovery. I am one of only 2 PVP TRs I know that still has 50%-60% deflection chance and I frequently wonder if I should convert.
    I am highly skeptical that changing our deflect severity would do much to help.

    I don't see much evidence to suport the claim that TR defensive capabilities are OP compared to other classes either. PVP defense issues seem to be a systemwide powercreep issue that effects anyone willing to stack their defensive stats to the moon.

    I will also mention a lot of TR defensive capabilities are thanks to having buttloads of recovery.
    Recovery = more ccs more often so your enemy has trouble hitting you in first place, recovery also means we can use impossible to catch more often, it also means we can go into stealth more often since we get a free stealth charge from using any daily power (Invisible infultrator passive).

    Take any class and stack 70%+ deflection chance, 20% lifesteal, healing insignias, skeleton steed, swift golden lion, boons, feats, armor enchantments, heals on gear, stamina gain, cc resistances, foehammer's favor exlixir, passive powers, a dodge/shield, tenacity, ect. and have fun killing that person in a sane length of time.
    --
    PVP Rogue,
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  • trgluestickz
    trgluestickz Member Posts: 1,136 Arc User
    edited September 2017

    TR is now nerfed in PVP and PVE, the main bugs were fixed. It is time to start buffing it now, not to keep nerfing it until it is as useless in PVP as it is in PVE.

    The TR class needs far more buffs than nerfs. That does not mean we need 0 nerfs.

    If we are to be buffed to where our class catches up to other classes in both PVP and PVE, it is only fair we give up the broken crutches we were relying on before. I don't think leaving CB and SOD as is AND buffing our at will and encounter power damage will turn out well. We truely would have the best of almost everything if we got to keep CB and SOD as is + other needed buffs to the class.

    Current SOD and CB are crutch powers. We need them only because our other powers do not dish out enough damage for us to rely on. I don't want these 2 powers to become useless but they need to be toned down if we are to be buffed to the point where we don't require these powers to keep up.
    --
    PVP Rogue,
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  • trgluestickz
    trgluestickz Member Posts: 1,136 Arc User
    edited September 2017

    imageimage

    You wanna tell me this is okay? This is beyond ridiculous and needs to be fixed... a striker class with the best defensive abilities and insane piercing damage.

    Actually that just proves my point, powercreep is the problem. If it wasn't possible to stack deflection chance that high, deflection severity would be a non issue. I have met my fair share of other untouchables in other classes, they did it by overhealing and stacking defensive stats to the moon, just like that TR you are showing me.

    I also said I am not opposed to TR's losing their extra 25% deflection severity, I don't think it will do much but I don't care either. Again, most TRs I see seem to prefer lifesteal + HP and leave their deflection chance at 30%.

    Also, I know a lot of people complain about TR dodges being used too often. But ask yourself this, what TR specific ability gives you more stamina gain? The only one I can think of is the heroic feat swift footwork, and many TRs don't even take that feat.

    Also, no I don't think this is ok, the devs should start reducing powercreep in PVP ASAP. 99% deflection chance is HAMSTER insane.
    --
    PVP Rogue,
    --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
    Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
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  • micky1p00
    micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,540 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    grrouper said:

    mickt1p00 said:



    The debuff was fixed/changed a week after mod 12 went live, meaning more than ~2 months ago. And totally not relevant now. And was before this thread posted.

    It has nothing to do with CB and it's CC, nor SoD being piercing now in terms of ArP.

    Fixed 2 months ago maybe try looking at a calendar Then you can look at the title of the post . And SoD is still very broken there is nowhere in the tool tip that says SoD ignore shifts and immunities so either tool tip needs updated or it is still bugged or broken.
    Mod 12 went live at Jul 25, 2017
    The SoD (Piercing and debuff) issue was discussed before the mod went live, and was changed (the debuff, piercing with pre mitigation) shortly after.

    Today it's Sep 17


    Before you start a world war over the exact dates, in my post that you quoted, you see that little "~", it means "Approximately" / "About"

    https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/19moay/eli5_what_is_a_tilde_used_for_and_why_have_people/
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tilde#Mathematics

    So how about less attitude ? Or your forum usage to imitate PvP and to click the disagree and nothing more ?

    You linked this thread mentioning the 'dev is wrong' (in sarcasm to demonmonger).

    "so what gives are they all wrong including the Dev "

    The dev post there discusses SoD ArP as intended and debuff as fixed.

    And here for your convenience the relevant post:

    For people trying to follow the SoD chaos, you might want to take a look at
    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1231984/official-feedback-thread-m12-private-pvp-queues-a-bit-about-where-pvp-is-headed/p10

    Note part of what's confusing is that there have been TWO changes:
    1) The change where all the piercing powers, including SoD, changed from ignoring resistances completely, to paying attention to resistances (and don't forget damage vulnerability, like Lantern of Revelation, is a special case of resistance) but having a whole bunch of armor penetration. This is discussed in the preview thread on armor pen and PvP (with some general armor pen stuff in another preview thread).
    2) Change (1) introduced a bug specifically to SoD, where a heavily debuffed target would get the debuffs counted twice. That's the specific SoD bugfix mentioned in the link above.

    The change is that SoD calculates damage pre-mitigation of the original hit. That was the change that made SoD work like HRs and prevented the double debuff.
    Post edited by micky1p00 on
  • trgluestickz
    trgluestickz Member Posts: 1,136 Arc User
    edited September 2017

    @trgluestickz 50% base deflect severity would change that even if you deflect EVERY single hit you still take some damage and get eventually killed.

    With 85% severity (potted) you take almost no damage anymore... you simply are invincible to physical damage. Only heavy piercing damage can take you down and this on a primary striker class?

    Would you still be nearly invincible to damage if you couldn't stack 70%+ deflection chance but did have 85% deflection severity? Again, powercreep. Fix the powercreep and you fix issues like this. Severe diminishing returns on all stats need to become a thing.
    Why is ANY class is allowed to have 99% deflection chance??? That's insane. That's not even all the defenses you can have, you could have put a guild boon on that TR for 20% lifesteal + other things and STILL have 99% deflection chance. Same goes for other classes. In fact, you can have MORE than 99% deflection chance, that TR in your picture has mildly outdated gear. Not to mention all the extra stats coming with module 12B, you will be able to use full PVE gear in PVP for more stats + rank 14 enchantments.
    And I keep saying, I am NOT oposed to taking off our 25% deflection severity, it may not be problem #1, especially given TRs usually don't stack deflect in PVP anymore, but it can still be argued that it contributes.
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  • micky1p00
    micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,540 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    grrouper said:


    Well they fixed the one issue but are you saying SoD is no longer a broken power ? There are no bugs involved in it ? Many have tested withing the last month and there is plenty of talk on how it ignore shifts and immunities so was that fixed or is that working as intended or still broken. Then again a simple ~ answers everything

    First, no, I'm saying that what you linked, is the fixed issue, and has no relevance to whatever you are trying to say.
    So keeping linking it and arguing over it wont prove nor disprove anything you want to say.

    Second, counting the damage ignoring immunities, shifts and tenacity, is what counting damage pre-mitigation. It's what it was changed into:


    Shadow of Demise now calculates its damage based on the damage dealt before the enemy's damage resistance is taken into account, and no longer benefits twice from buffs or debuffs on an enemy.

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/games/neverwinter/news/detail/10608104-patch-notes:-version:-nw.85.20170711b.10

    You can argue that that's is OP, or not balanced or what not. But unless said otherwise, that's the change.
    Also this is not the same as SoD proc not respecting Iframes. That thread was about the damage accumulation and not SoD proc itself.
    grrouper said:

    Then again a simple ~ answers everything

    You are looking for a discussion or an attitude pissing contest ?!

    But never mind, not sure why I even ventured to this side of the forums. Using recent threads page has it's risks I guess when a simple minor clarification goes into who knows what.