kalina311Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,082Arc User
edited October 2017
Guys it makes sense with all the devs bug fix passes to all powers things are going to be shaken up yet again in pvp and the Devs are waiting to see how things balance out to make adjustments based on mod 13 bug patches being done (yes certain class weakness and interactions will still be there regardless and are beyond the scope of their bug fix )
broken crappy powers are getting fixed /adjusted on many classes making more paths / encounters viable yet again in new and unpredictable build creation theory crafting ways ...and a lot of dev fixes are adding much more dps options or stippling away tried and true defensive mechanisms / healing
Hey, I don't know if anybody said this but... ADD GRIM COINS TO STRATEGIST PRICE REQUIREMENTS!!! We need Gauntlgrym PvP back, it's literally dead, and it was great!! It was a hugh asset when it was revamped in Mod 6, very fun and very populated. I repeat, we need it back!
We are 10 days away from Mod 12.b, you still have time to tweak it and add that few code lines and add Grim Coins as requirements and just that would may bring back GG PvP. Give it a chance/considerate it please, it's the easiest/fastest way to revive it RIGHT NOW.
Hey, I don't know if anybody said this but... ADD GRIM COINS TO STRATEGIST PRICE REQUIREMENTS!!! We need Gauntlgrym PvP back, it's literally dead, and it was great!! It was a hugh asset when it was revamped in Mod 6, very fun and very populated. I repeat, we need it back!
We are 10 days away from Mod 12.b, you still have time to tweak it and add that few code lines and add Grim Coins as requirements and just that would may bring back GG PvP. Give it a chance/considerate it please, it's the easiest/fastest way to revive it RIGHT NOW.
> @sgrantdev#8718 What's happening to the Mastercrafted PvP Titansteel sets?
> They're not mentioned anywhere and have not been marked or adjusted on PTR.
> It would be terribly wasteful, millions of AD, to not have it adjusted to be at least equal in stats, but not identical, to the new Strategist, as they are outside of PvP.
>
> If they are not being adjusted, why?
Sorry but I'll be shocked if you actually get a reply.
I can weigh in here. Equipment is not adjusted to keep pace with the release of new equipment, I won't go so far as saying "never has, never will," because there may be exceptions under extreme circumstances, but as a rule of thumb, you can essentially assume that equipment will never be adjusted to keep pace with new equipment that is released.
When you invest in any equipment, whether it's astral diamonds in a piece of equipment that is crafted, or time in a piece of armor that drops, know that it will only remain best in slot for a limited time. Specifically in regards to masterwork, we do have new recipes planned, and as always, you'll be in a better position to start building those new recipes if you're up to date on the current masterwork recipes.
So short answer: the new prestige armor set will beat out the current masterwork PvP set. However, now that tenacity is gone, there is no reason for masterwork PvP set to be item level 450 and not 480 to match the equivalent masterwork PvE set, so we will be adjusting the item level up to 480.
These are still not adjusted on PTR... Don't forget!
0
architect40Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 20Arc User
Hey, I don't know if anybody said this but... ADD GRIM COINS TO STRATEGIST PRICE REQUIREMENTS!!! We need Gauntlgrym PvP back, it's literally dead, and it was great!! It was a hugh asset when it was revamped in Mod 6, very fun and very populated. I repeat, we need it back!
We are 10 days away from Mod 12.b, you still have time to tweak it and add that few code lines and add Grim Coins as requirements and just that would may bring back GG PvP. Give it a chance/considerate it please, it's the easiest/fastest way to revive it RIGHT NOW.
Thanks, good luck with all the stuff!
ya they decided that they wanted to give players the incentive to run the lag fest which is strongholds pvp (with no comment on removing pets which are causing crazy lag )by giving a weekly participation reward of a blood ruby to players whether they win or not afk or not // screw over thier team or not..
there is no incentive or participation rewards for running GG which is a much smoother faster map with easier to understand objectives : (
they have still to fix bugs on the original pvp maps dating back from beta of players getting into the safe spawn camps of opposing team players and troll killing them ..
now that the CC/ crowd control "annoyance" "non smooth/dynamic game play" has been removed/altered and toned down from pvp by the devs (with no feedback at all about intended design mechanics nor any adjustments made .. )
..the lag from companions is free to return to strongholds pvp and CC/stutter / stun/ lock / frame lock/ companion you to death . basically making everyone camp at the fire for their reward.. further enhancing your game play experience . *major sarcasm*
It is a good idea alevlain ! I am PvE player but still remember the days when GG was alive. It was funny even for PvE players like me, so +1 for GG coins for 12B PVP gear
Remove pets from SH PVP, Add rewards to GG. Try and make the PVP instances a good place to go and PVP, pets dont belong in PVP, OWPVP is for that purpose.
I hope devs keep monitoring feedback on PVP issues concerning the GG PVP and SH PVP.
Guantlgrym PVP should get priority over Stronghold Siege PVP as far as which mode gets overhauled first, but I will be posting ideas for both in this thread. That said, here is my breakdown of SH PVP:
What Killed Siege PVP:
Strongholds PVP was a good concept but due to que issues, severe lag, design flaws, the lack of rewards with long term viability, and general neglect, nobody actually plays SH PVP anymore. It can however be revived if it gets a proper overhaul.
Feedback on the Weekly SH PVP Quest:
I see that you have added an updated weekly reward to SH PVP. The reward itself is desirable and should get more people to que for SH PVP, but there is a catch. Unless most or all of the other issues with SH PVP are fixed, this will not revive actual siege gameplay. Instead, most SH matches will only be a weekly farm match where everyone just lets one team win as fast as possible so they all get the weekly reward. The only way to get actual SH PVP gameplay to come back is a full overhaul. Rewards should be a part of that overhaul but there is no 1 factor you could change that would singlehandedly revive siege PVP.
People would play SH PVP again if the following Issues were fixed:
Companion Active Bonuses in Siege PVP:
Please disable active companion bonuses in siege, they have been the cause of some nasty siege balancing issues for a long time now and are completely unnecessary. Companions are not designed with PVP in mind, they are PVE tools and they tend to be OP when put into a PVP setting. Many of them offer things like large amounts of: control resistance, control bonus, damage, additional self heals, extra control powers, ect.
The Siege PVP Que:
*Update* The request I have highlighted in green text has been fullfilled and can now be checked off of Crytpic's to do list:
Please add stronghold siege PVP to the private PVP que. Stronghold siege is ridiculously hard to get a group together for right now and we really need the ability to organize both teams beforehand. SH siege requires too many people per match to be viable as a public que only feature.Here are all of the reasons why:
In order to start a siege match, you have to get 40 people with plenty of free time on their hands to que and stay qued for a long time without a break. You are not able to easily see how many are still waiting for the que to pop and we had to rely on people regularly self reporting themselves as qued using custom chat channels. Often people would give up without telling anyone or forget to report themselves during headcount checks so it was next to impossible to see how many people we actually had. This made it so we could not cap how many people we had qued at exactly 40 people so there was always a chance you would end up drawing the short straw and not be included once siege finally did pop. Likewise, there was also a high chance that we would fail to get enough people to stay qued and we frequently had to call off attempts after hours of hassle and waiting.
There were also some nasty SH matchmaking bugs that as far as I know, were never fixed. One of which made it so even when you did get a full group, the que pop would be dropped repeatedly until it finally let everyone in. You had to re-accept the que pop over and over again and whenever the timer ran out on each pop, it had a chance to drop everyone from the que making it so everybody had to constantly reque as well. The player counter for the que pop window would frequently count way above 40 people and fluctuate randomly. You'd see it do things like flip between 30 people, to 39 people, to 41 people, then drop to 32 people and then suddenly go up to 48 people. There also seemed to be a bug where siege would stop including you in pops altogether if you went for a long enough span of time without requeing. You also had to get everyone to que solo in order for the que to pop at all. These bugs + coordinating with 40 people ensured that everyone had to wait an hour or more every single time they wanted to do a siege match. I don't know if these bugs were fixed or not, but I would definitely look into having people test for them.
Siege PVP Lag:
I am not sure how to help with the extreame lag stronghold siege suffers from, I am no tech person. Anything at all you can do to help with that will go a long way towards making people want to play siege again.
Siege PVP Nodes:
Stronghold nodes have a design flaw where a single player with good survivability can prevent a node from being captured for as long as they remain in combat near the node. A single player can defend a node from huge numbers of enemy players because of this.
I am not sure if this ever got fixed or not, but there was a bug with SH nodes. I may have the details wrong for this but if I remember right, this bug was caused by a TR using the teleport from shadowy disappearance to enter and then exit the siege nodes. Bugged nodes would become impossible to capture and would stay under the ownership of whatever team owned the node before the TR bugged it.
This problem could be fixed by adjusting what is required to capture a node and also fixing the node bug if its still there.
Large Numbers of Healers and Buff/Debuffers in Siege PVP:
This while not as big of a problem as the above issues, deserves a mention. In huge fights over nodes in siege, there are often too many support classes present on both sides. This causes one or both teams to become almost immortal for long periods of time and it takes a long time before either side successfully manages to get the upper hand and win the node. In order to win a node, you have to either kill every enemy who is near the node or drive them all away.
If I remember right, clerics can heal the node health gages directly and also the catapult health gages, which makes them extremely difficult to capture or destroy.
This problem could probably be reduced by adjusting what is required to capture a node. Another thing worth considering is reducing the effectiveness of healing/buffs used on node/catapult health gages. Continuing to make more global adjustments to PVP balance and more class balance will probably help as well.
Lifesteal/Other Self Healing in Siege PVP:
In Siege PVP, you often end up being able to damage large numbers of players at once. This causes you to heal to full health instantly using AOE attacks or other things that can hit multiple people at once. This problem is further amplified by adding in extra heals from companion active bonuses.
This is fixable by continuing to adjust self healing in PVP and removing companion active bonuses from siege.
Siege PVP Rewards:
Update the rewards you get for winning a siege match. The updated participation weekly is a great addition to siege PVP but the reward for actually winning siege also badly needs an update. Here is my suggestion for updating the victory prize:
Increase the amount of PVP currency you get for winning a siege match.
Add more conqueror's shards of power to the SH PVP loot table and make them a guaranteed reward on a win if they weren't already.
Make siege grant only epic strongholds vouchers instead of blue and green vouchers when you win a siege match.
Dramatically reduce the cost of acquiring lionsmane PVP gear. Lionsmane gear is very outdated but people still like using it as a transmute. Consider making it so there is a rare chance for a lionsmane PVP gear peice to drop when you win a siege match.
Post edited by trgluestickz on
-- PVP Rogue, --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]-- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin) Ingame Handle: trgluestickz Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563 Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud Platform: PC
Guantlgrym PVP as I stated in my other post, should get priority over Strongholds Siege PVP. Guantlgrym is currently more appealing to PVPers anyway and will take less effort to fix. Here is my breakdown of guantlgrym PVP:
What Killed Guantlgrym:
Guantlgrym PVP is a well liked PVP mode but its lack of rewards, the decreasing PVP population size, general neglect of PVP over the years, and issues with larger team sizes amplifying the effects of powercreep and class inbalances caused this gamemode to die out. Towards the end of guantlgrym's reign, GG matches began to be viewed as being more lopsided than domination matches due to larger premade sizes, a tidal wave of past issues with overpowered items (ambush rings, drains, certain enchantments ect), and the other issues above I mentioned. This all combined eventually caused the PVP population to stop PUG queing for guantlgrym altogether. The only GG matches occurring after that point were very rare and were all premade vs premades and inhouse guild fights. Despite the past issues with GG that killed it, many PVPers miss GG PVP and would do a GG match if they got the opportunity to do so, but they don't bother PUG queing for it anymore because they don't expect it to actually pop. Reviving guantlgrym will require equal parts changing current player habbits for guantlgrym and introducing physical updates to the gamemode itself.
Feedback on How Adding Guantlgrym to the Private PVP Que Affected Gauntlgrym's Pop Rate:
The addition of a private PVP que for guantlgrym was a huge improvement. While people still aren't pug queing for guantlgrym, premade vs permades for GG have gotten a lot more common. You can now see GG matches being organized over PVP channels every day whereas before, you'd be lucky to witness more than 2 or 3 GG matches form a month.
Gauntlgrym PVP Would Become Popular Again if the Following Issues Were Fixed:
Guantlgrym Rewards:
Gauntlgrym's lack of good rewards plays a significant role in why people don't currently public que for it. Here are some good reward overhaul ideas:
Give guantlgrym a weekly participation rewards quest that is similar to the one that was just implemented for SH siege PVP.
Add a small number of conqueror's shards of power to the rewards you get for winning a guantlgrym match. I recommend making this number much less than what can be gained via siege PVP but still decent. Make it so you only gain the shards for winning a match and you can continue winning shards up to a weekly cap. For example, lets say you gain 5 shards every single time you win a guantlgrym match up to a weekly cap of 30.
Give grym coins relevance again so people actually want them for something besides turning into glory and have added incentive to que for GG PVP instead of just doing domination PVP. --- @aleblain had the brilliant idea to add grym coins to the cost requirements for buying the new strategist's PVP gear. If you don't end up having time to implement this change before module 12.5 hits live, please implement this idea for the next PVP set you release. --- An idea of my own is to make it so you can purchase the Howler(rare) and Heavy Howler(epic) mounts using a combination of grym coins, glory, and seals of triumph. Its a throwback to the armored howlers you had to collect barding for in the old guantlgrym system and I'm sure PVPers would love the ability to buy mounts for PVP currency. --- Someone also suggested allowing you to buy ultimate and superior marks of potency/enchanting stones for glory but I think this idea would work better if done for grym coins. Glory could then be used to purchase lower ranks of enchanting stones and marks of potency. --- Other desirable rewards being made purchasable for grym coins would also be welcomed, ideally things that are worth buying more than once and keep people comming back for more.
Gauntlgrym is part of the veteran PVP campiagn and many players have requested Cryptic to update the old PVP campaign with better rewards. The boons are horribly outdated and the rewards are too lackluster to motivate anyone to chase after them. I won't go into detail on this here since this really involves all PVP types not just Guantlgrym.
Relation Between Guantlgrym Team Sizes and PVP Inbalance:
Gauntlgrym similarly to SH siege, suffers from complications with its large teams amplifying already present issues with PVP inbalance. This is something that will need to be tackled by continuing to work on PVP and class balance in general and is not something that is likely to be fixable by working on guantlgrym alone.
Utilizing Guantlgrym Nostalgia:
There are a large number of people who miss the old guantlgrym system that was tied to dungeons and daily events. They view the old GG as more fun than the remodeled version. The only part of the old guantlgrym system PVPers don't seem to agree on wanting back are the guild requirement for it and the 20vs20 team sizes guantlgrym used to support.
I'd highly recommend modifying guantlgrym to have more similarities to the older version again. --- Keep the current version of guantlgrym as a separate que that you can access anytime except for when the second version of guantlgrym becomes active each day. --- I recommend making it so the second version of GG becomes active twice a day for a set number of hours at a time. For that second GG version, keep the team sizes as 10vs10 to reduce lag. Modify the old team allegiances (Delzoun Explorers and Luskan Corsairs) some so you don't have to be a member of a guild to get your contract. Bring back most of the old activities/tasks/stages GG used to have as well. Also bring back the reward of being able to enter the Dwarf King Crypt dungeon if you win the match. Update the rewards for the Dwarf King Crypt dungeon accordingly.
Guantlgrym Node Bug:
I don't know if this ever got fixed or not but there was another really bad node bug afflicting guantlgrym PVP. Just like the SH node bug, it also involves TRs. TRs were able to teleport inside the guantlgrym nodes using shadowy disappearance. This meant they could not be damaged for as long as they remained inside the node and could keep teleporting back in and out of the nodes during fights making them next to impossible to kill. The worst part of this was that it forced you to leave at least one ally behind on a node you captured for as long as an enemy TR using this bug remained on the same node.
Post edited by trgluestickz on
-- PVP Rogue, --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]-- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin) Ingame Handle: trgluestickz Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563 Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud Platform: PC
Mod12b, fix TR's sod.. it's broken. Glad the cc getting nerfed, its ruining all the fun. Gf/pally shouldn't do that much of dps, they aint striker class... they are support class lmao. I mean look at the leaderboard... all i see is Gf, TR, OP with 1k+ kills and 15 or less deaths... tell me that's not overpowered !!
Just wanted to make a quick post with a couple of updates
Courage breaker's duration has been lowered for PvP targets. The intent of courage breaker was not to allow a rogue to lock down someone movement wise. This is an initial change to see if it helps to balance out the concerns without significantly altering the utility of the power. If we still feel there is an issue we will make some other tweaks based on the feedback given.
I see you have nerfed Courage Breaker's duration in PVP. I agree with the general sentiment among PVP players that CB needs to be adjusted in some way. Unfortunately, this particular nerf will fail to address the problems with CB and will not change anything. This nerf really needs to be removed and replaced.
I was part of the crowd who worked on the TR rework threads and this particular CB nerf originally appeared as part of our suggestions to the devs. It is the only suggestion on that list that really needed to be pulled and its an embarrassment that it remained a part of our suggestions for so long. The issues with this nerf were not caught until close to the end of those threads' hayday and by then, almost all activity on those threads had ceased.
[That Said, Here is a Detailed Explanation of Why The CB Nerf Will Not Work and What to Consider Replacing it With]
How CB Currently Works and How Often it Can be Used:
Courage breaker's slow currently has a base duration of around 10 seconds. Control bonus applies to courage breaker but control resistance and control immunity does not. Most PVP TRs have a decent amount of control bonus on them so CB is usually longer than 10 seconds in PVP. I've heard CB can last 17 seconds in PVP but I have not tested the effects of max control bonus + CB so I can't be sure of the exact number of extra seconds you can add.
PVP TRs currently stack tons of recovery and its normal to see TRs running around with anywhere between 15k and 25k recovery. Most PVP TRs pair this with the cooldown reduction feats from the sabotuer tree, a mythic sigil of the devoted artifact, the mount stat bonus from either tenser's floating disk or legacy flail snail, and anything else they can get their hands on that further reduces their cooldowns.
Because of this cooldown reduction + CB's long duration, TRs can easily fire off multiple CBs before the first CB has worn off. This means they can maintain CB indefinitely against a single target if they so choose. Its possible to fire off at least 5 CBs before the first CB has even worn off. You do not need maxed out recovery or maxed out control bonus in order to pull this off but you do still need a lot of it.
It will become even easier to maintain CB when the new rank 14 enchantments are introduced and it becomes viable to run around in full PVE gear sets in PVP. This is because the max amount of recovery you can have on a TR will increase by several K.
How Effective the Nerf to CB Will Be:
Even if you reduced CB's duration in PVP by half, it will still be easy to apply another CB before your first CB has worn off, meaning TRs can still keep a target CBed indefinitely.
The only TRs who might be effected by this nerf will be lowbie TRs who don't have as much cooldown reduction as their maxed out counterparts.
If CB only lasted for 5 seconds and control bonus did not apply, then this nerf might have slightly reduced how effective CB is at preventing players from reaching nodes. This is because the TR usually does not stay behind to CB the target a second time when they use this tactic. Control bonus does still apply to CB so you likely won't notice any change in how effective CB is at stalling players.
The only way to make lowering CB's duration in PVP an effective nerf to CB spam would be to nerf CB's duration by so much that you outright kill this power's viability. CB's effects are only desirable if they last long enough for you to get some good hits in on your target while they are CBed or to stall your target from reaching nodes.
Possible Ways to Fix CB:
The problems with CB are not caused by the mechanics themselves, they are caused by how often you can use CB. This also applies to most powers that have become problematic over the years. Either the mechanics of such powers will have to be altered to accommodate for the powercreep or the powercreep will have to be altered to accommodate for the mechanics. The latter is the best solution and will need to be implemented at some point anyway. But in the meantime, Crytpic is still left chasing after things when they break and applying band aids left and right.
@sgrantdev, I get the impression in your post that you wanted to avoid "significantly altering" the mechanics of CB and I understand why. Unfortunately, there does not appear to be a viable way around this if you try to tackle the problem by changing CB itself. I have tried coming up with direct fixes to CB myself and read other people's ideas for fixes. The nerf that was implemented for CB here has the same basic flaws as every other nerf I have heard proposed for CB, it either doesn't nerf CB enough or it nerfs CB so much that people would just stop using CB altogether. We don't need more dead powers so the best non systematic way to fix CB and keep it viable for both PVE and PVP is a complete rewrite of its mechanics, possibly to something that doesn't even involve CC effects.
Another option is to outright replace CB with a completely new daily power.
There is one specific idea that is flawed but it would still do a better job at nerfing CB than the current proposal of reducing CB's duration would. Its a band aid for sure but it might make an acceptable placeholder until something more substantial can be done, here it is:
Give CB an internal cooldown. The timer for the cooldown should begin when CB is activated and must last for longer than it takes for CB to wear off. 15 seconds has been suggested.
To make it easier to set up a consistent internal cooldown, make it so control bonus no longer applies to CB. If it pierces all control resistance/immunity then I see no reason why not to also make it so control bonus does not apply to CB.
Ideally, this change should only apply to pvp.
One more thing I will suggest is raising CB's damage debuff for both pvp and pve as part of this change. Its currently 54% instead of the 120% in the tooltip. I'm not sure whether or not it should be increased all the way to 120% but that is an option. Changing this debuff number to 80% has been suggested.
Just So You Are Aware of the Downsides of Giving CB an Internal Cooldown, Here Are the 3 Major Flaws With This Idea:
Several people on the old thread did not like the idea of only certain daily powers getting an ICD. Daily powers are not intended to have cooldowns and the consept came across as hypocritical since other classes can also use daily powers too often. This idea garnered more support as a systemwide change to how daily powers work (giving all dailies cooldowns).
Another critque of this idea came up when I spoke to other PVP players about it. Many were iritated that this change did not adress CB going through all CC imunities, which is viewed as a primary issue with CB by many PVP players. The ones I spoke to knew it was an intentional mechanic but wanted to see CB's slow be changed so that all CC breaks effect it.
The 15 second ICD was also thought to be too short since other TR CC's could just be used in between CBs to keep the target permastuned.
Courage Breaker (CB) Daily Power Bug:
CB will sometimes root the target instead of slowing them. I have seen some conflicting reports on this bug. One version is that this bug is not so much a bug as it is that multiple slow powers can stack on top of eachother until your movement speed becomes 0. The other version is that the slows from CB + other powers don't just stack but interact with eachother in a buggy way that causes your movement speed to internally set to 0 when its not supposed to. I witnessed this bug take place by accident a few times before I knew the cause. Curiously, the root seemed to last for just as long as the slow this power would normally have dealt instead.
Post edited by trgluestickz on
-- PVP Rogue, --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]-- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin) Ingame Handle: trgluestickz Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563 Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud Platform: PC
2
kalina311Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,082Arc User
edited October 2017
@trgluestickz thanks for re putting everything that was said in this thread/ and pretty much for years in a nice blue font but dev commentary died in this thread well before even bug fix month and they left us hanging on CC changes ..and stronghold changes
making better pvp currency / claim shop to attract more player and get involvement for better rewards has been said for years so far and nothing has been done expect brief NCL
ya i mentioned we should be able to use pvp currency for get marks to upgrade level 13 and 14 enchants/weapons(instead of it being gated behind 1 dungeon ) ,, i dont care where it come from Gg strongholds normal pvp etc
not one comment from the devs about daily spams in pvp and thier philosophy vis avis Cc changes and related spam due to dailies frequencies and not the powers themselves
all these ap gain action point gain // recovery ... need to be put on hard diminishing curves and not timers that way players can still chose to invest and over stack certain stats to make thier build more effective in the area they want and certain dailies do not fall out of favor cause they are on timers vs non timed ones ...
@trgluestickz thanks for re putting everything that was said in this thread/ and pretty much for years in a nice blue font but dev commentary died in this thread well before even bug fix month and they left us hanging on CC changes ..and stronghold changes
making better pvp currency / claim shop to attract more player and get involvement for better rewards has been said for years so far and nothing has been done expect brief NCL
ya i mentioned we should be able to use pvp currency for get marks to upgrade level 13 and 14 enchants/weapons(instead of it being gated behind 1 dungeon ) ,, i dont care where it come from Gg strongholds normal pvp etc
not one comment from the devs about daily spams in pvp and thier philosophy vis avis Cc changes and related spam due to dailies frequencies and not the powers themselves
all these ap gain action point gain // recovery ... need to be put on hard diminishing curves and not timers that way players can still chose to invest and over stack certain stats to make thier build more effective in the area they want and certain dailies do not fall out of favor cause they are on timers vs non timed ones ...
I wrote those posts (and will be writing more of them) in case the devs come back to this thread, I suspect they got busy with other stuff and thats why they haven't been tweaking the CC system. They probably will come back to tweak the new system at some point, probably sooner than later given they will get more complaints about it once the changes hit live. Right now, you still have many people who didn't bother to test the changes cheering the new changes without giving them much thought. There are also people who didn't want to fool with revisiting this thread to check for tweaks and are waiting to see what the changes will be like on live before they say anything. Both groups of people are in for a nasty suprize to say the least XD.
If the devs end up starting another thread on PVP stuff, I can always just move all my big posts there so they stay visible, I have been archiving them for later use.
As for the new CC diminishing returns system, here is my take on them in a nutshell. I will be writting a more detailed post on the new system but for now:
If I had to choose, I would rather have systematic changes to AP gain/recovery than the CC diminishing returns system. The devs will eventually have to apply systematic fixes to powercreep anyway and anything else they do in the meantime is a bandaid. I am in favor of not just fixing AP gain/recovery but also extending this fix to all stats by giving them all up to date diminishing returns.
However, I would rather have a properly tweaked and adjusted CC diminishing returns system than nothing at all done about CC in PVP. Its the flaws with the current model of CC diminishing returns and not the consept itself that makes it a bad thing. The devs should look at the CC diminishing returns system as a bandaid and not a permanant solution, they will have to do something more substantial to combat the powercreep eventually.
Post edited by trgluestickz on
-- PVP Rogue, --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]-- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin) Ingame Handle: trgluestickz Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563 Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud Platform: PC
Please add stronghold siege PVP to the private PVP que. Stronghold siege is ridiculously hard to get a group together for right now and we really need the ability to organize both teams beforehand. SH siege requires too many people per match to be viable as a public que only feature. Here are all of the reasons why:
In order to start a siege match, you have to get 40 people with plenty of free time on their hands to que and stay qued for a long time without a break. You are not able to easily see how many are still waiting for the que to pop and we had to rely on people regularly self reporting themselves as qued using custom chat channels. Often people would give up without telling anyone or forget to report themselves during headcount checks so it was next to impossible to see how many people we actually had. This made it so we could not cap how many people we had qued at exactly 40 people so there was always a chance you would end up drawing the short straw and not be included once siege finally did pop. Likewise, there was also a high chance that we would fail to get enough people to stay qued and we frequently had to call off attempts after hours of hassle and waiting.
There were also some nasty SH matchmaking bugs that as far as I know, were never fixed. One of which made it so even when you did get a full group, the que pop would be dropped repeatedly until it finally let everyone in. You had to re-accept the que pop over and over again and whenever the timer ran out on each pop, it had a chance to drop everyone from the que making it so everybody had to constantly reque as well. The player counter for the que pop window would frequently count way above 40 people and fluctuate randomly. You'd see it do things like flip between 30 people, to 39 people, to 41 people, then drop to 32 people and then suddenly go up to 48 people. There also seemed to be a bug where siege would stop including you in pops altogether if you went for a long enough span of time without requeing. You also had to get everyone to que solo in order for the que to pop at all. These bugs + coordinating with 40 people ensured that everyone had to wait an hour or more every single time they wanted to do a siege match. I don't know if these bugs were fixed or not, but I would definitely look into having people test for them.
*Update* I just noticed in game that the devs have added Strongholds Siege to the private PVP que. I'm not sure when this was done but its there now. TY to whoever added it to the que.
I have edited my old post so that it now states that adding SH Siege to the private que has been done.
-- PVP Rogue, --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]-- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin) Ingame Handle: trgluestickz Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563 Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud Platform: PC
Introducing a CC diminishing returns system is a good idea but the current version of it you are proposing is not designed well and it will have a disastrous effect on PVP. It needs to be tweaked significantly in order to make it viable.
[Here Are the Problems With the Current Draft of the CC Diminishing Returns System and How to Fix Them]
CC Immunity Duration:
@sgrantdev, you stated in one of your posts that the duration of the CC immunity window has been increased to 15 seconds instead of it simply lasting for the duration of your oldest CC stack. As @rustlord , @armadeonx , and other players have mentioned, 15 seconds is excessively long for an immunity window. Remember that in PVP, even just a couple seconds of CC immunity are very potent.
The immunity window should be more in line with already existing CC breakers and last for 3 or 4 seconds, 5 at the very most.
Accumulating CC Resistance Stacks:
You will be able to accumulate and re-accumulate max CC resistance stacks far too quickly. This is because there are only 4 CC stacks and any CC power regardless of strength or duration will trigger a stack (except CB). Many CC powers are micro CCs that can be reapplied often but have a short duration. Combine micro CCs + larger CCs + the CCs of teammates (or any 2 of those 3 options) and the target is guaranteed to hit max stacks near instantly and stay that way for the rest of the fight. Every single time the immunity window wears off, the target will rapidly reach max stacks again. The duration of the immunity window is a whopping 15 seconds as mentioned earlier so even with only 1 of the 3 CC factors, you will still be immune to CC for much longer periods of time than you are not.
The internal cooldown for accumulating the stacks is also too low to help with this problem at all. If a target is hit with multiple CC powers at once, they can near instantly reach max stacks even though they are not being CCed for any longer than if they had been hit with just 1 CC effect.
This also means that micro CC effects will be universally shunned in PVP builds because they buff the target more than they harm them. This will destroy the viability of most CC builds across multiple classes. Scoundrel TR, HR Trapper, Oppressor CW, and probably more builds I am forgetting about will stop being viable. OP micro CCs are pretty spammy as well so they will probably stop including them in their builds. Boons that feature CCs will also be avoided along with any other CCs that cannot be procced manually. In short, the only CC effects people will still use will be large CCs that have manual triggers. This will also mean that newb players will be getting screamed at for using micro CC powers in PVP.
To fix the stacking issues, I suggest implementing all of the following:
Increase the number of CC stacks and use smaller amounts of CC resistance per stack. 4 stacks of 25% control resistance is too few. 20 stacks of 5% control resistance has been suggested. 10 stacks of 10% control resistance has also been proposed. These stacks should not expire until you either reach max stacks or leave combat. When you reach max stacks, you become control immune and your stack counter resets to 0 as soon as this immunity ends.
Make it so how many stacks you gain per CC scales with the strength/duration of the CC effect. From top to bottom greatest to weakest, here is a good way to rank the CCs: --- prones --- longer dazes and stuns --- shorter dazes/stuns and roots --- slows and pushes As a loose example, lets say you need 20 stacks of CC resist to become CC immune. Prones grant 8 stacks; longer dazes and stuns grant 6 stacks; shorter dazes/stuns and roots grant 4 stacks; and slows and pushes grant 2 stacks. I don't know if these exact numbers should be what you go with or not, this is just an example.
Increase the internal cooldown for how fast you can gain stacks. This will prevent redundant overlapping CCs from causing the target to instantly become CC immune.
As @kalina311 suggested, separate each player's CC resistance stacks from those of other attackers. This would mean that control resistance stacks are only effective against the player that applied them to the target and everyone generates resistance stacks independently of one another. This would mean that outnumbering a foe properly gives the bigger group an advantage when it comes to CCs but that single foe still can't be permastunned. If generating CC resistance stacks isn't separated for each attacker, you would often be messing up your teammate if you tried to assist them in a fight with your CCs.
Post edited by trgluestickz on
-- PVP Rogue, --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]-- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin) Ingame Handle: trgluestickz Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563 Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud Platform: PC
I had to cut this post into 2 parts owing to it running over the character limit; its about the new CC diminishing returns system. Here is part 2:
Interactions Between CC Resistance Stacks and Other Sources of Control Resist:
Having all 4 stacks of 25% control resist means you have 100% CC resistance. However, assuming the control resistance stacks work the same way as already existing CC resistance sources, the 100% CC resistance iself does not cause you to become control immune. This means that the CC immunity mechanic is a separate effect from the control resistance stacks that simply triggers once you gain all 4 stacks. This theoretically means that you cannot use other sources of control resist to reduce how many stacks you need in order to reach CC immunity.
However, I'm still concerned about how these new CC resistance stacks will interact with already existing CC resistance in the game. I wouldn't be surprised if there are any buggy interactions between existing CC resistance and the new CC diminishing returns system. Also keep in mind that the new CC stacks + existing CC resistance might not even need to be buggy to be problematic, it could simply result in players having access to way too much control resistance in some or all PVP locations.
To give you an impression of how much CC resistance is in the game right now, elven battle enchantment grants 80% CC resistance, boons grant up to 53% CC resistance, valindra's set gives you 10% CC resistance, deflecting an attack reduces the duration of any CC effects that attack came with, and there are more things in the game besides just these that also grant control resistance. In SH siege and open world PVP, this is even more concerning when you add in the active bonuses for these 2 companions:
Sylph --- 50% control resist Willow Wisp --- 25% control resist
Here Are 2 Ways to Cut Down on The Amount of CC Resistance in PVP:
Reevaluate the elven battle enchantment's 80% CC resistance. It will probably be too much when stacked on top of the new CC diminishing returns system. Someone suggested earlier to change it to a movement speed bonus. I think this is a great idea though you don't have to remove all of the control resistance, it just needs to be a much smaller number. Here is a more fleshed out rework for elven battle, I think this change would be welcomed by both PVE players and PVP players:
Elven Battle Enchantment, Max Rank: You are 25% more resistant to all control effects, their duration is reduced. You also move 20% faster and your stamina regen is increased by 30%.
I also asked earlier for all companion bonuses to be removed from SH siege, which in addition to addressing many other companion balancing issues, would eliminate 2 more large sources of CC resistance in PVP (except open world).
Interactions Between the New CC Immunity Window and TR CC breakers:
Another thing I want to point out is the balance conserns of combining the new CC immunity window with TR CC breakers; this will remain a consern even if the CC immunity duration is changed to be less than 15 seconds. Namely impossible to catch (5 second long encounter that makes you CC immune) and bloodbath (daily that makes you immune to control and damage for its duration). Recovery/AP gain powercreep is out of control right now so TRs can use ITC and bloodbath quite often. Right now, TRs are CC immune at least 50% of the time or more (ITC + dodges + bloodbath) and resistant to CCs the other 50% of the time (various sources of control resistance). The new CC diminishing returns system + ITC + bloodbath will probably cause TRs to be control immune around 80% through 100% of the time and dramatically increase their control resistance for the remaining 20% through 0% of the time.
I'm not sure of how to fix the TR CC breaks + CC diminishing returns problem quickly but its definitely something to be aware of. Changing AP gain/recovery to have diminishing returns should fix this problem by reducing how often you can use ITC and bloodbath but for now, all I can do is shrug.
Interactions Between the CC Diminishing Returns System, Courage Breaker, and Smoke Bomb:
One of the primary classes PVPers were targeting when they requested a CC diminishing returns system was the TR. They are particularly concerned about the two powers courage breaker and smokebomb but the new CC diminishing returns system does almost nothing to address these 2 powers when it really should.
Courage breaker goes through all CC resistances making it exempt from being able to apply CC resistance stacks. CB did get a nerf but as I discussed earlier, that nerf will do almost nothing. The CC diminishing returns system will not help with CB either.
I saw @sgrantdev state earlier that CC resistance stacks should only proc once per power activation. No players seem to agree with that statement but I think the real issue with this statement got overlooked by several people. The real issue with smokebomb's CC resistance stacks isn't that remaining in a smoke bomb for longer doesn't grant additional stacks, its that SB only grants 1 stack of CC resistance along with every other CC effect. Scaling CC resistance stacks to match the strength/duration of their corresponding CCs does not have to mean that the longer you remain in the same CC power, the more stacks you accumulate, but that is an option I guess. It can be done the way I described earlier where each power grants its stacks when the power activates, you just need to make sure that whatever stack numbers each type of CC applies are scaled to match how powerful the CC is. Unfortunately, the devs have not done this and have kept the CC stacks at a uniform 1 per power no matter what type of CC the powers have.
One other detail I should mention is that SB does not work the same way as other CC powers. Most CC powers have a base duration that can be reduced by control resistance whereas smokebomb's CC is permanent for as long as smokebomb remains active on the field. Despite SB's odd mechanics, SB isn't overpowered on its own, its pairing it with CB and powercreep that has made SB an issue. Fix one or both of those factors and SB will no longer be a problem.
Non CC Powers Proccing CC Resistance Stacks:
I think the below quote pretty much sums up this issue:
Second, some effects which should probably not allow you to gain stacks do so. For example, the CW feat Severe Reaction. A character standing close to a CW can acquire CC immunity simply by hitting them and getting pushed back a little. I've also heard reports that GFs marking their target adds a stack; (edit: just tested this, and it appears that Threatening Rush adds a stack of CC immunity, but tab mark does not)
Post edited by trgluestickz on
-- PVP Rogue, --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]-- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin) Ingame Handle: trgluestickz Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563 Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud Platform: PC
1
kalina311Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,082Arc User
until a dev chimes in and tells us the Pvp Cc diminishing return Cryptic bedtime origin story and specifically the problems it attempts to resolve any further speculation is pointless because we cannot direct feedback on deaf eyes
As countless other PVP players have pointed out, the recent tweak to Shadow of Demise is a complete disaster.
This tweak appears to have been intended as a resource efficient one-tweak-fixes-all solution to the TR class's issues with low DPS. I understand the appeal of such a seemingly simple tweak as it could have saved the devs a lot of trouble if it had worked; unfortunately it did not work and neither would any other one-tweak-fixes-all type solution. The TR class needs a real overhaul, there's just no way around it. Thankfully, recent dev comments have indicated that you guys have plans to do exactly that.
All of That Said, Here Are the Reasons Why the SOD Tweak is a Disaster, Why it Needs to be Pulled, and What it Should Be Replaced With:
What Was in the SOD Tweak and Why its OP:
Essentially, shadow of demise piercing damage was changed from post mitigation damage to pre mitigation damage. This change is basically the same tweak that was made to combat HR piercing damage a while back, which resulted in HRs melting people in PVP with overpowered piercing damage for several months. This tweak's effects on SOD have been no different and SOD's piercing damage is now overpowered.
The whole point of the dev's nerf to piercing damage a few months back was to make it so piercing damage would no longer be overpowered in PVP. The nerf worked at first and sucessfully toned down shocking execution. Unfortunatly, that nerf is now almost completly pointless thanks to the recent update to SOD. SOD is now even more powerful than shocking execution was pre nerf.
The SOD procs from most BIS PVP TRs now easily hit for well over 100k. SOD procs seldom fall below 70k for strong TRs. This means SOD is hitting for almost as much damage as shocking execution could before the nerf.
Unlike SE, SOD cannot be easily dodged. There are a few ways to evade it such as using powers that make you invulnerable to damage or breaking line of sight but there aren't that many options. SOD is a nightmare for classes that lack most of the defenses that work against SOD.
The SOD tweak also made it so SOD now stores the damage from your attacks even if you missed with every attack you made. I'm not 100% sure this last part is intentional but several months after the SOD tweak, this flaw has not been fixed.
The SOD Tweak Doesn't Just Negatively Impact Other PVP Classes, Its Also a Disaster For the TR Class:
For one thing, the SOD tweak does absolutely nothing to improve TR dps in PVE. Most SOD damage isn't even getting mitigated in PVE anyway since PVE players stack armor pen to 85% and monsters do not have very many lairs of defense compared to PVP players. So the damage from SOD in PVE has not improved much if at all.
To make matters worse, this SOD tweak effectively bars the devs from being able to increase TR damage in PVE without making the TR even more overpowered in PVP. Overpowered sources of piercing damage always create a conflict of interest between the needs of PVP and PVE players. If the devs buffed our overall damage output to help in PVE and left SOD as it is now, we would now have both overpowered piercing damage AND much stronger damage from our regular powers in PVP.
The SOD change also has played a major role in killing 2 out of 3 TR feat trees. Sabotuer before the SOD change, was able to keep up with executioner as a viable PVP TR spec. Sabotuer did a little bit less damage than executioner did but this was a fair tradeoff considering sabotuer was easier than executioner to play and was a better CC build.The recent change to SOD has pushed sabotuer damage miles behind that of executioner in PVP. This combined with the new CC diminishing returns system has crushed the sabotuer tree and it will no longer be able to compete with the executioner tree in PVP as a result. The SOD tweak combined with the new CC diminishing returns system has hit the scoundrel tree even harder. Before the changes, scoundrel was actually only a little bit behind sabotuer in PVP in spite of how few people play this tree. The change to SOD just like with sabotuer, has made it so scoundrel damage has fallen too far behind executioner to be able to keep up with them in PVP. The CC diminishing returns system has crushed scoundrel even more and it is now miles behind both sabotuer and executioner when it wasn't before.
The Only Way for the Devs to Make the TR Class Balancible Again is to Completely Do Away With the Recent Changes to SOD. This Tweak Will Continue to Complicate and Hogtie Any Balancing Efforts For As Long As it Continues To Exist. The SOD Tweak Should be Replaced With What I Have Written Below:
TRs have been asking for well over a year now for the devs to buff our sources of regular damage, specifically ones that effect our at wills and encounter powers. We don't do enough damage in PVE compared to other classes and in PVP, we are reliant on broken sources of piercing damage and CC builds because our at wills and encounter powers do not dish out enough damage to rely on. If our regular damage was buffed, it would make it so PVE TRs would be able to catch up to other DPS classes in PVE. In PVP, buffing our regular damage would make it so we could once again rely on our at wills and encounter powers for damage, catch up to other classes, and make it so the devs could then tone down our piercing damage without hurting the TR class.
The TRs from the TR rework thread did propose a tweak to SOD but its nothing like the tweak that is currently in place. SOD never needed a damage improvement in PVP so the change to SOD we proposed was aimed solely at improving SOD in PVE without messing it up in PVP. The TR class has an issue where most of their major damage sources are locked behind long delays. The below change to SOD is intended to help reduce this problem and I recommend that the devs include it as part of the upcoming TR rework:
Shadows of Demise (SoD) - The problem with this capstone feat is that it doesn't have a chance to proc in highly geared parties, because most things die in less than 6 seconds. This makes the executioner path not scale well into Endgame BIS.
One solution is to make SoD work in 1 sec ticks after the initial proc, and extend SoD an extra second. This way, it applies the extra 50% damage accumulated each second at the end of each second for the duration of SoD. So, for the 7 seconds SoD lasts, it will be 7 ticks. Another option is 3 ticks total, 2 seconds each.
A more simple option would be to grant a flat +50% damage for 6 seconds from when SoD is procced. This is essentially what it does now, only on a 6 second delay and with piercing damage. This would be an easier option if the other two are too difficult to implement.
Post edited by trgluestickz on
-- PVP Rogue, --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]-- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin) Ingame Handle: trgluestickz Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563 Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud Platform: PC
consider all PVP matches have kicks and my main is cleric. is it possible to make it a pleasant experience? something like a buff your party kick you in the (_._) givining you 10% running speed for 10 min. stacks up to 3 times
1
kalina311Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,082Arc User
kalina311Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,082Arc User
edited November 2017
@devs your new fix for sandy pants (as well as 2 other broken items/boons not respecting your new cc system) still breaks pvp and does not respect your cc immunity stacks system and you get hit from it potentially 5 times from every player wearing it on the other team it need as a global cooldown if it will not respect cc 60 seconds per player per items is meaninless if there is full 2 set of teams using them (cause of no choice because of the devs "pvp vision" fire with fire )that is 10 activation per minutes...ya that should solve the pvp cc spam control problem *sigh*
so this what the devs want ? for every minute that passes in pvp ...potentially there could be cumulatively 30 seconds of player non movements .... (not even including power that will hold and stun initially till the cc kicks in ) and excluding if its 10v 10 or 20 v 20 in strongholds
so devs you fixed the cc system so people could move in pvp and now you want them not to move 50% of the time or more by unresistant able CC piecing control holds that do not respect the new Cc system you introduced
Where/who are the devs responsible for developing this PVP CC system ? batter up its your turn now we are waiting 2 months for any feedback on the system at all that you introduced/ You did not even tweak it at all based on feedback either . ...
Comments
broken crappy powers are getting fixed /adjusted on many classes making more paths / encounters viable yet again in new and unpredictable build creation theory crafting ways ...and a lot of dev fixes are adding much more dps options or stippling away tried and true defensive mechanisms / healing
Hi all!
Hey, I don't know if anybody said this but... ADD GRIM COINS TO STRATEGIST PRICE REQUIREMENTS!!! We need Gauntlgrym PvP back, it's literally dead, and it was great!! It was a hugh asset when it was revamped in Mod 6, very fun and very populated. I repeat, we need it back!
We are 10 days away from Mod 12.b, you still have time to tweak it and add that few code lines and add Grim Coins as requirements and just that would may bring back GG PvP. Give it a chance/considerate it please, it's the easiest/fastest way to revive it RIGHT NOW.
Thanks, good luck with all the stuff!
there is no incentive or participation rewards for running GG which is a much smoother faster map with easier to understand objectives : (
they have still to fix bugs on the original pvp maps dating back from beta of players getting into the safe spawn camps of opposing team players and troll killing them ..
now that the CC/ crowd control "annoyance" "non smooth/dynamic game play" has been removed/altered and toned down from pvp by the devs (with no feedback at all about intended design mechanics nor any adjustments made .. )
..the lag from companions is free to return to strongholds pvp and CC/stutter / stun/ lock / frame lock/ companion you to death . basically making everyone camp at the fire for their reward.. further enhancing your game play experience . *major sarcasm*
Pls and thx
A few days until this goes live and Mastercrafted PvP gear is STILL not adjusted on preview.
I hope devs keep monitoring feedback on PVP issues concerning the GG PVP and SH PVP.
@sgrantdev#8718
Guantlgrym PVP should get priority over Stronghold Siege PVP as far as which mode gets overhauled first, but I will be posting ideas for both in this thread. That said, here is my breakdown of SH PVP:
What Killed Siege PVP:
Strongholds PVP was a good concept but due to que issues, severe lag, design flaws, the lack of rewards with long term viability, and general neglect, nobody actually plays SH PVP anymore. It can however be revived if it gets a proper overhaul.
Feedback on the Weekly SH PVP Quest:
I see that you have added an updated weekly reward to SH PVP. The reward itself is desirable and should get more people to que for SH PVP, but there is a catch. Unless most or all of the other issues with SH PVP are fixed, this will not revive actual siege gameplay. Instead, most SH matches will only be a weekly farm match where everyone just lets one team win as fast as possible so they all get the weekly reward. The only way to get actual SH PVP gameplay to come back is a full overhaul. Rewards should be a part of that overhaul but there is no 1 factor you could change that would singlehandedly revive siege PVP.
People would play SH PVP again if the following Issues were fixed:
Companion Active Bonuses in Siege PVP:
Please disable active companion bonuses in siege, they have been the cause of some nasty siege balancing issues for a long time now and are completely unnecessary. Companions are not designed with PVP in mind, they are PVE tools and they tend to be OP when put into a PVP setting. Many of them offer things like large amounts of: control resistance, control bonus, damage, additional self heals, extra control powers, ect.
The Siege PVP Que:
*Update* The request I have highlighted in green text has been fullfilled and can now be checked off of Crytpic's to do list:
Please add stronghold siege PVP to the private PVP que. Stronghold siege is ridiculously hard to get a group together for right now and we really need the ability to organize both teams beforehand. SH siege requires too many people per match to be viable as a public que only feature. Here are all of the reasons why:
In order to start a siege match, you have to get 40 people with plenty of free time on their hands to que and stay qued for a long time without a break. You are not able to easily see how many are still waiting for the que to pop and we had to rely on people regularly self reporting themselves as qued using custom chat channels. Often people would give up without telling anyone or forget to report themselves during headcount checks so it was next to impossible to see how many people we actually had. This made it so we could not cap how many people we had qued at exactly 40 people so there was always a chance you would end up drawing the short straw and not be included once siege finally did pop. Likewise, there was also a high chance that we would fail to get enough people to stay qued and we frequently had to call off attempts after hours of hassle and waiting.
There were also some nasty SH matchmaking bugs that as far as I know, were never fixed. One of which made it so even when you did get a full group, the que pop would be dropped repeatedly until it finally let everyone in. You had to re-accept the que pop over and over again and whenever the timer ran out on each pop, it had a chance to drop everyone from the que making it so everybody had to constantly reque as well.
The player counter for the que pop window would frequently count way above 40 people and fluctuate randomly. You'd see it do things like flip between 30 people, to 39 people, to 41 people, then drop to 32 people and then suddenly go up to 48 people.
There also seemed to be a bug where siege would stop including you in pops altogether if you went for a long enough span of time without requeing.
You also had to get everyone to que solo in order for the que to pop at all.
These bugs + coordinating with 40 people ensured that everyone had to wait an hour or more every single time they wanted to do a siege match. I don't know if these bugs were fixed or not, but I would definitely look into having people test for them.
Siege PVP Lag:
I am not sure how to help with the extreame lag stronghold siege suffers from, I am no tech person. Anything at all you can do to help with that will go a long way towards making people want to play siege again.
Siege PVP Nodes:
Stronghold nodes have a design flaw where a single player with good survivability can prevent a node from being captured for as long as they remain in combat near the node.
A single player can defend a node from huge numbers of enemy players because of this.
I am not sure if this ever got fixed or not, but there was a bug with SH nodes.
I may have the details wrong for this but if I remember right, this bug was caused by a TR using the teleport from shadowy disappearance to enter and then exit the siege nodes.
Bugged nodes would become impossible to capture and would stay under the ownership of whatever team owned the node before the TR bugged it.
This problem could be fixed by adjusting what is required to capture a node and also fixing the node bug if its still there.
Large Numbers of Healers and Buff/Debuffers in Siege PVP:
This while not as big of a problem as the above issues, deserves a mention.
In huge fights over nodes in siege, there are often too many support classes present on both sides. This causes one or both teams to become almost immortal for long periods of time and it takes a long time before either side successfully manages to get the upper hand and win the node. In order to win a node, you have to either kill every enemy who is near the node or drive them all away.
If I remember right, clerics can heal the node health gages directly and also the catapult health gages, which makes them extremely difficult to capture or destroy.
This problem could probably be reduced by adjusting what is required to capture a node. Another thing worth considering is reducing the effectiveness of healing/buffs used on node/catapult health gages.
Continuing to make more global adjustments to PVP balance and more class balance will probably help as well.
Lifesteal/Other Self Healing in Siege PVP:
In Siege PVP, you often end up being able to damage large numbers of players at once. This causes you to heal to full health instantly using AOE attacks or other things that can hit multiple people at once. This problem is further amplified by adding in extra heals from companion active bonuses.
This is fixable by continuing to adjust self healing in PVP and removing companion active bonuses from siege.
Siege PVP Rewards:
Update the rewards you get for winning a siege match. The updated participation weekly is a great addition to siege PVP but the reward for actually winning siege also badly needs an update. Here is my suggestion for updating the victory prize:
Increase the amount of PVP currency you get for winning a siege match.
Add more conqueror's shards of power to the SH PVP loot table and make them a guaranteed reward on a win if they weren't already.
Make siege grant only epic strongholds vouchers instead of blue and green vouchers when you win a siege match.
Dramatically reduce the cost of acquiring lionsmane PVP gear. Lionsmane gear is very outdated but people still like using it as a transmute. Consider making it so there is a rare chance for a lionsmane PVP gear peice to drop when you win a siege match.
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC
@sgrantdev#8718
Guantlgrym PVP as I stated in my other post, should get priority over Strongholds Siege PVP. Guantlgrym is currently more appealing to PVPers anyway and will take less effort to fix. Here is my breakdown of guantlgrym PVP:
What Killed Guantlgrym:
Guantlgrym PVP is a well liked PVP mode but its lack of rewards, the decreasing PVP population size, general neglect of PVP over the years, and issues with larger team sizes amplifying the effects of powercreep and class inbalances caused this gamemode to die out.
Towards the end of guantlgrym's reign, GG matches began to be viewed as being more lopsided than domination matches due to larger premade sizes, a tidal wave of past issues with overpowered items (ambush rings, drains, certain enchantments ect), and the other issues above I mentioned. This all combined eventually caused the PVP population to stop PUG queing for guantlgrym altogether. The only GG matches occurring after that point were very rare and were all premade vs premades and inhouse guild fights.
Despite the past issues with GG that killed it, many PVPers miss GG PVP and would do a GG match if they got the opportunity to do so, but they don't bother PUG queing for it anymore because they don't expect it to actually pop.
Reviving guantlgrym will require equal parts changing current player habbits for guantlgrym and introducing physical updates to the gamemode itself.
Feedback on How Adding Guantlgrym to the Private PVP Que Affected Gauntlgrym's Pop Rate:
The addition of a private PVP que for guantlgrym was a huge improvement.
While people still aren't pug queing for guantlgrym, premade vs permades for GG have gotten a lot more common. You can now see GG matches being organized over PVP channels every day whereas before, you'd be lucky to witness more than 2 or 3 GG matches form a month.
Gauntlgrym PVP Would Become Popular Again if the Following Issues Were Fixed:
Guantlgrym Rewards:
Gauntlgrym's lack of good rewards plays a significant role in why people don't currently public que for it. Here are some good reward overhaul ideas:
Give guantlgrym a weekly participation rewards quest that is similar to the one that was just implemented for SH siege PVP.
Add a small number of conqueror's shards of power to the rewards you get for winning a guantlgrym match. I recommend making this number much less than what can be gained via siege PVP but still decent. Make it so you only gain the shards for winning a match and you can continue winning shards up to a weekly cap. For example, lets say you gain 5 shards every single time you win a guantlgrym match up to a weekly cap of 30.
Give grym coins relevance again so people actually want them for something besides turning into glory and have added incentive to que for GG PVP instead of just doing domination PVP.
--- @aleblain had the brilliant idea to add grym coins to the cost requirements for buying the new strategist's PVP gear. If you don't end up having time to implement this change before module 12.5 hits live, please implement this idea for the next PVP set you release.
--- An idea of my own is to make it so you can purchase the Howler(rare) and Heavy Howler(epic) mounts using a combination of grym coins, glory, and seals of triumph. Its a throwback to the armored howlers you had to collect barding for in the old guantlgrym system and I'm sure PVPers would love the ability to buy mounts for PVP currency.
--- Someone also suggested allowing you to buy ultimate and superior marks of potency/enchanting stones for glory but I think this idea would work better if done for grym coins. Glory could then be used to purchase lower ranks of enchanting stones and marks of potency.
--- Other desirable rewards being made purchasable for grym coins would also be welcomed, ideally things that are worth buying more than once and keep people comming back for more.
Gauntlgrym is part of the veteran PVP campiagn and many players have requested Cryptic to update the old PVP campaign with better rewards. The boons are horribly outdated and the rewards are too lackluster to motivate anyone to chase after them. I won't go into detail on this here since this really involves all PVP types not just Guantlgrym.
Relation Between Guantlgrym Team Sizes and PVP Inbalance:
Gauntlgrym similarly to SH siege, suffers from complications with its large teams amplifying already present issues with PVP inbalance. This is something that will need to be tackled by continuing to work on PVP and class balance in general and is not something that is likely to be fixable by working on guantlgrym alone.
Utilizing Guantlgrym Nostalgia:
There are a large number of people who miss the old guantlgrym system that was tied to dungeons and daily events. They view the old GG as more fun than the remodeled version. The only part of the old guantlgrym system PVPers don't seem to agree on wanting back are the guild requirement for it and the 20vs20 team sizes guantlgrym used to support.
I'd highly recommend modifying guantlgrym to have more similarities to the older version again.
--- Keep the current version of guantlgrym as a separate que that you can access anytime except for when the second version of guantlgrym becomes active each day.
--- I recommend making it so the second version of GG becomes active twice a day for a set number of hours at a time. For that second GG version, keep the team sizes as 10vs10 to reduce lag. Modify the old team allegiances (Delzoun Explorers and Luskan Corsairs) some so you don't have to be a member of a guild to get your contract. Bring back most of the old activities/tasks/stages GG used to have as well. Also bring back the reward of being able to enter the Dwarf King Crypt dungeon if you win the match. Update the rewards for the Dwarf King Crypt dungeon accordingly.
Guantlgrym Node Bug:
I don't know if this ever got fixed or not but there was another really bad node bug afflicting guantlgrym PVP.
Just like the SH node bug, it also involves TRs. TRs were able to teleport inside the guantlgrym nodes using shadowy disappearance. This meant they could not be damaged for as long as they remained inside the node and could keep teleporting back in and out of the nodes during fights making them next to impossible to kill. The worst part of this was that it forced you to leave at least one ally behind on a node you captured for as long as an enemy TR using this bug remained on the same node.
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC
Glad the cc getting nerfed, its ruining all the fun.
Gf/pally shouldn't do that much of dps, they aint striker class... they are support class lmao.
I mean look at the leaderboard... all i see is Gf, TR, OP with 1k+ kills and 15 or less deaths... tell me that's not overpowered !!
¨˜ˆ”°¹~•-.„¸ρℓαуιиg иєνєяωιитєя ѕιи¢є 2015¸„.-•~¹°”ˆ˜¨
I agree with the general sentiment among PVP players that CB needs to be adjusted in some way.
Unfortunately, this particular nerf will fail to address the problems with CB and will not change anything. This nerf really needs to be removed and replaced.
I was part of the crowd who worked on the TR rework threads and this particular CB nerf originally appeared as part of our suggestions to the devs. It is the only suggestion on that list that really needed to be pulled and its an embarrassment that it remained a part of our suggestions for so long. The issues with this nerf were not caught until close to the end of those threads' hayday and by then, almost all activity on those threads had ceased.
[That Said, Here is a Detailed Explanation of Why The CB Nerf Will Not Work and What to Consider Replacing it With]
How CB Currently Works and How Often it Can be Used:
Courage breaker's slow currently has a base duration of around 10 seconds. Control bonus applies to courage breaker but control resistance and control immunity does not. Most PVP TRs have a decent amount of control bonus on them so CB is usually longer than 10 seconds in PVP.
I've heard CB can last 17 seconds in PVP but I have not tested the effects of max control bonus + CB so I can't be sure of the exact number of extra seconds you can add.
PVP TRs currently stack tons of recovery and its normal to see TRs running around with anywhere between 15k and 25k recovery. Most PVP TRs pair this with the cooldown reduction feats from the sabotuer tree, a mythic sigil of the devoted artifact, the mount stat bonus from either tenser's floating disk or legacy flail snail, and anything else they can get their hands on that further reduces their cooldowns.
Because of this cooldown reduction + CB's long duration, TRs can easily fire off multiple CBs before the first CB has worn off. This means they can maintain CB indefinitely against a single target if they so choose.
Its possible to fire off at least 5 CBs before the first CB has even worn off. You do not need maxed out recovery or maxed out control bonus in order to pull this off but you do still need a lot of it.
It will become even easier to maintain CB when the new rank 14 enchantments are introduced and it becomes viable to run around in full PVE gear sets in PVP. This is because the max amount of recovery you can have on a TR will increase by several K.
How Effective the Nerf to CB Will Be:
Even if you reduced CB's duration in PVP by half, it will still be easy to apply another CB before your first CB has worn off, meaning TRs can still keep a target CBed indefinitely.
The only TRs who might be effected by this nerf will be lowbie TRs who don't have as much cooldown reduction as their maxed out counterparts.
If CB only lasted for 5 seconds and control bonus did not apply, then this nerf might have slightly reduced how effective CB is at preventing players from reaching nodes. This is because the TR usually does not stay behind to CB the target a second time when they use this tactic.
Control bonus does still apply to CB so you likely won't notice any change in how effective CB is at stalling players.
The only way to make lowering CB's duration in PVP an effective nerf to CB spam would be to nerf CB's duration by so much that you outright kill this power's viability.
CB's effects are only desirable if they last long enough for you to get some good hits in on your target while they are CBed or to stall your target from reaching nodes.
Possible Ways to Fix CB:
The problems with CB are not caused by the mechanics themselves, they are caused by how often you can use CB. This also applies to most powers that have become problematic over the years. Either the mechanics of such powers will have to be altered to accommodate for the powercreep or the powercreep will have to be altered to accommodate for the mechanics. The latter is the best solution and will need to be implemented at some point anyway. But in the meantime, Crytpic is still left chasing after things when they break and applying band aids left and right.
@sgrantdev, I get the impression in your post that you wanted to avoid "significantly altering" the mechanics of CB and I understand why. Unfortunately, there does not appear to be a viable way around this if you try to tackle the problem by changing CB itself.
I have tried coming up with direct fixes to CB myself and read other people's ideas for fixes. The nerf that was implemented for CB here has the same basic flaws as every other nerf I have heard proposed for CB, it either doesn't nerf CB enough or it nerfs CB so much that people would just stop using CB altogether. We don't need more dead powers so the best non systematic way to fix CB and keep it viable for both PVE and PVP is a complete rewrite of its mechanics, possibly to something that doesn't even involve CC effects.
Another option is to outright replace CB with a completely new daily power.
There is one specific idea that is flawed but it would still do a better job at nerfing CB than the current proposal of reducing CB's duration would. Its a band aid for sure but it might make an acceptable placeholder until something more substantial can be done, here it is:
Give CB an internal cooldown.
The timer for the cooldown should begin when CB is activated and must last for longer than it takes for CB to wear off. 15 seconds has been suggested.
To make it easier to set up a consistent internal cooldown, make it so control bonus no longer applies to CB. If it pierces all control resistance/immunity then I see no reason why not to also make it so control bonus does not apply to CB.
Ideally, this change should only apply to pvp.
One more thing I will suggest is raising CB's damage debuff for both pvp and pve as part of this change. Its currently 54% instead of the 120% in the tooltip. I'm not sure whether or not it should be increased all the way to 120% but that is an option. Changing this debuff number to 80% has been suggested.
Just So You Are Aware of the Downsides of Giving CB an Internal Cooldown, Here Are the 3 Major Flaws With This Idea:
Several people on the old thread did not like the idea of only certain daily powers getting an ICD. Daily powers are not intended to have cooldowns and the consept came across as hypocritical since other classes can also use daily powers too often. This idea garnered more support as a systemwide change to how daily powers work (giving all dailies cooldowns).
Another critque of this idea came up when I spoke to other PVP players about it. Many were iritated that this change did not adress CB going through all CC imunities, which is viewed as a primary issue with CB by many PVP players. The ones I spoke to knew it was an intentional mechanic but wanted to see CB's slow be changed so that all CC breaks effect it.
The 15 second ICD was also thought to be too short since other TR CC's could just be used in between CBs to keep the target permastuned.
Courage Breaker (CB) Daily Power Bug:
CB will sometimes root the target instead of slowing them.
I have seen some conflicting reports on this bug.
One version is that this bug is not so much a bug as it is that multiple slow powers can stack on top of eachother until your movement speed becomes 0.
The other version is that the slows from CB + other powers don't just stack but interact with eachother in a buggy way that causes your movement speed to internally set to 0 when its not supposed to.
I witnessed this bug take place by accident a few times before I knew the cause. Curiously, the root seemed to last for just as long as the slow this power would normally have dealt instead.
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC
making better pvp currency / claim shop to attract more player and get involvement for better rewards has been said for years so far and nothing has been done expect brief NCL
ya i mentioned we should be able to use pvp currency for get marks to upgrade level 13 and 14 enchants/weapons(instead of it being gated behind 1 dungeon ) ,,
i dont care where it come from Gg strongholds normal pvp etc
not one comment from the devs about daily spams in pvp and thier philosophy vis avis Cc changes and related spam due to dailies frequencies and not the powers themselves
all these ap gain action point gain // recovery ... need to be put on hard diminishing curves and not timers that way players can still chose to invest and over stack certain stats to make thier build more effective in the area they want
and certain dailies do not fall out of favor cause they are on timers vs non timed ones ...
If the devs end up starting another thread on PVP stuff, I can always just move all my big posts there so they stay visible, I have been archiving them for later use.
As for the new CC diminishing returns system, here is my take on them in a nutshell. I will be writting a more detailed post on the new system but for now:
If I had to choose, I would rather have systematic changes to AP gain/recovery than the CC diminishing returns system. The devs will eventually have to apply systematic fixes to powercreep anyway and anything else they do in the meantime is a bandaid. I am in favor of not just fixing AP gain/recovery but also extending this fix to all stats by giving them all up to date diminishing returns.
However, I would rather have a properly tweaked and adjusted CC diminishing returns system than nothing at all done about CC in PVP. Its the flaws with the current model of CC diminishing returns and not the consept itself that makes it a bad thing. The devs should look at the CC diminishing returns system as a bandaid and not a permanant solution, they will have to do something more substantial to combat the powercreep eventually.
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC
I have edited my old post so that it now states that adding SH Siege to the private que has been done.
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC
@rgutscheradev
@sgrantdev
Introducing a CC diminishing returns system is a good idea but the current version of it you are proposing is not designed well and it will have a disastrous effect on PVP. It needs to be tweaked significantly in order to make it viable.
[Here Are the Problems With the Current Draft of the CC Diminishing Returns System and How to Fix Them]
CC Immunity Duration:
@sgrantdev, you stated in one of your posts that the duration of the CC immunity window has been increased to 15 seconds instead of it simply lasting for the duration of your oldest CC stack.
As @rustlord , @armadeonx , and other players have mentioned, 15 seconds is excessively long for an immunity window. Remember that in PVP, even just a couple seconds of CC immunity are very potent.
The immunity window should be more in line with already existing CC breakers and last for 3 or 4 seconds, 5 at the very most.
Accumulating CC Resistance Stacks:
You will be able to accumulate and re-accumulate max CC resistance stacks far too quickly. This is because there are only 4 CC stacks and any CC power regardless of strength or duration will trigger a stack (except CB). Many CC powers are micro CCs that can be reapplied often but have a short duration. Combine micro CCs + larger CCs + the CCs of teammates (or any 2 of those 3 options) and the target is guaranteed to hit max stacks near instantly and stay that way for the rest of the fight. Every single time the immunity window wears off, the target will rapidly reach max stacks again. The duration of the immunity window is a whopping 15 seconds as mentioned earlier so even with only 1 of the 3 CC factors, you will still be immune to CC for much longer periods of time than you are not.
The internal cooldown for accumulating the stacks is also too low to help with this problem at all. If a target is hit with multiple CC powers at once, they can near instantly reach max stacks even though they are not being CCed for any longer than if they had been hit with just 1 CC effect.
This also means that micro CC effects will be universally shunned in PVP builds because they buff the target more than they harm them. This will destroy the viability of most CC builds across multiple classes. Scoundrel TR, HR Trapper, Oppressor CW, and probably more builds I am forgetting about will stop being viable. OP micro CCs are pretty spammy as well so they will probably stop including them in their builds. Boons that feature CCs will also be avoided along with any other CCs that cannot be procced manually. In short, the only CC effects people will still use will be large CCs that have manual triggers. This will also mean that newb players will be getting screamed at for using micro CC powers in PVP.
To fix the stacking issues, I suggest implementing all of the following:
Increase the number of CC stacks and use smaller amounts of CC resistance per stack. 4 stacks of 25% control resistance is too few.
20 stacks of 5% control resistance has been suggested. 10 stacks of 10% control resistance has also been proposed. These stacks should not expire until you either reach max stacks or leave combat. When you reach max stacks, you become control immune and your stack counter resets to 0 as soon as this immunity ends.
Make it so how many stacks you gain per CC scales with the strength/duration of the CC effect. From top to bottom greatest to weakest, here is a good way to rank the CCs:
--- prones
--- longer dazes and stuns
--- shorter dazes/stuns and roots
--- slows and pushes
As a loose example, lets say you need 20 stacks of CC resist to become CC immune. Prones grant 8 stacks; longer dazes and stuns grant 6 stacks; shorter dazes/stuns and roots grant 4 stacks; and slows and pushes grant 2 stacks. I don't know if these exact numbers should be what you go with or not, this is just an example.
Increase the internal cooldown for how fast you can gain stacks. This will prevent redundant overlapping CCs from causing the target to instantly become CC immune.
As @kalina311 suggested, separate each player's CC resistance stacks from those of other attackers. This would mean that control resistance stacks are only effective against the player that applied them to the target and everyone generates resistance stacks independently of one another. This would mean that outnumbering a foe properly gives the bigger group an advantage when it comes to CCs but that single foe still can't be permastunned. If generating CC resistance stacks isn't separated for each attacker, you would often be messing up your teammate if you tried to assist them in a fight with your CCs.
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC
Interactions Between CC Resistance Stacks and Other Sources of Control Resist:
Having all 4 stacks of 25% control resist means you have 100% CC resistance. However, assuming the control resistance stacks work the same way as already existing CC resistance sources, the 100% CC resistance iself does not cause you to become control immune. This means that the CC immunity mechanic is a separate effect from the control resistance stacks that simply triggers once you gain all 4 stacks. This theoretically means that you cannot use other sources of control resist to reduce how many stacks you need in order to reach CC immunity.
However, I'm still concerned about how these new CC resistance stacks will interact with already existing CC resistance in the game. I wouldn't be surprised if there are any buggy interactions between existing CC resistance and the new CC diminishing returns system. Also keep in mind that the new CC stacks + existing CC resistance might not even need to be buggy to be problematic, it could simply result in players having access to way too much control resistance in some or all PVP locations.
To give you an impression of how much CC resistance is in the game right now, elven battle enchantment grants 80% CC resistance, boons grant up to 53% CC resistance, valindra's set gives you 10% CC resistance, deflecting an attack reduces the duration of any CC effects that attack came with, and there are more things in the game besides just these that also grant control resistance. In SH siege and open world PVP, this is even more concerning when you add in the active bonuses for these 2 companions:
Sylph --- 50% control resist
Willow Wisp --- 25% control resist
Here Are 2 Ways to Cut Down on The Amount of CC Resistance in PVP:
Reevaluate the elven battle enchantment's 80% CC resistance. It will probably be too much when stacked on top of the new CC diminishing returns system. Someone suggested earlier to change it to a movement speed bonus. I think this is a great idea though you don't have to remove all of the control resistance, it just needs to be a much smaller number. Here is a more fleshed out rework for elven battle, I think this change would be welcomed by both PVE players and PVP players:
Elven Battle Enchantment, Max Rank:
You are 25% more resistant to all control effects, their duration is reduced. You also move 20% faster and your stamina regen is increased by 30%.
I also asked earlier for all companion bonuses to be removed from SH siege, which in addition to addressing many other companion balancing issues, would eliminate 2 more large sources of CC resistance in PVP (except open world).
Interactions Between the New CC Immunity Window and TR CC breakers:
Another thing I want to point out is the balance conserns of combining the new CC immunity window with TR CC breakers; this will remain a consern even if the CC immunity duration is changed to be less than 15 seconds. Namely impossible to catch (5 second long encounter that makes you CC immune) and bloodbath (daily that makes you immune to control and damage for its duration). Recovery/AP gain powercreep is out of control right now so TRs can use ITC and bloodbath quite often. Right now, TRs are CC immune at least 50% of the time or more (ITC + dodges + bloodbath) and resistant to CCs the other 50% of the time (various sources of control resistance). The new CC diminishing returns system + ITC + bloodbath will probably cause TRs to be control immune around 80% through 100% of the time and dramatically increase their control resistance for the remaining 20% through 0% of the time.
I'm not sure of how to fix the TR CC breaks + CC diminishing returns problem quickly but its definitely something to be aware of. Changing AP gain/recovery to have diminishing returns should fix this problem by reducing how often you can use ITC and bloodbath but for now, all I can do is shrug.
Interactions Between the CC Diminishing Returns System, Courage Breaker, and Smoke Bomb:
One of the primary classes PVPers were targeting when they requested a CC diminishing returns system was the TR. They are particularly concerned about the two powers courage breaker and smokebomb but the new CC diminishing returns system does almost nothing to address these 2 powers when it really should.
Courage breaker goes through all CC resistances making it exempt from being able to apply CC resistance stacks. CB did get a nerf but as I discussed earlier, that nerf will do almost nothing. The CC diminishing returns system will not help with CB either.
I saw @sgrantdev state earlier that CC resistance stacks should only proc once per power activation. No players seem to agree with that statement but I think the real issue with this statement got overlooked by several people. The real issue with smokebomb's CC resistance stacks isn't that remaining in a smoke bomb for longer doesn't grant additional stacks, its that SB only grants 1 stack of CC resistance along with every other CC effect. Scaling CC resistance stacks to match the strength/duration of their corresponding CCs does not have to mean that the longer you remain in the same CC power, the more stacks you accumulate, but that is an option I guess. It can be done the way I described earlier where each power grants its stacks when the power activates, you just need to make sure that whatever stack numbers each type of CC applies are scaled to match how powerful the CC is. Unfortunately, the devs have not done this and have kept the CC stacks at a uniform 1 per power no matter what type of CC the powers have.
One other detail I should mention is that SB does not work the same way as other CC powers. Most CC powers have a base duration that can be reduced by control resistance whereas smokebomb's CC is permanent for as long as smokebomb remains active on the field. Despite SB's odd mechanics, SB isn't overpowered on its own, its pairing it with CB and powercreep that has made SB an issue. Fix one or both of those factors and SB will no longer be a problem.
Non CC Powers Proccing CC Resistance Stacks:
I think the below quote pretty much sums up this issue:
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC
until a dev chimes in and tells us the Pvp Cc diminishing return Cryptic bedtime origin story and specifically the problems it attempts to resolve any further speculation is pointless because we cannot direct feedback on deaf eyes
@sgrantdev
As countless other PVP players have pointed out, the recent tweak to Shadow of Demise is a complete disaster.
This tweak appears to have been intended as a resource efficient one-tweak-fixes-all solution to the TR class's issues with low DPS. I understand the appeal of such a seemingly simple tweak as it could have saved the devs a lot of trouble if it had worked; unfortunately it did not work and neither would any other one-tweak-fixes-all type solution. The TR class needs a real overhaul, there's just no way around it. Thankfully, recent dev comments have indicated that you guys have plans to do exactly that.
All of That Said, Here Are the Reasons Why the SOD Tweak is a Disaster, Why it Needs to be Pulled, and What it Should Be Replaced With:
What Was in the SOD Tweak and Why its OP:
Essentially, shadow of demise piercing damage was changed from post mitigation damage to pre mitigation damage. This change is basically the same tweak that was made to combat HR piercing damage a while back, which resulted in HRs melting people in PVP with overpowered piercing damage for several months. This tweak's effects on SOD have been no different and SOD's piercing damage is now overpowered.
The whole point of the dev's nerf to piercing damage a few months back was to make it so piercing damage would no longer be overpowered in PVP. The nerf worked at first and sucessfully toned down shocking execution. Unfortunatly, that nerf is now almost completly pointless thanks to the recent update to SOD. SOD is now even more powerful than shocking execution was pre nerf.
The SOD procs from most BIS PVP TRs now easily hit for well over 100k. SOD procs seldom fall below 70k for strong TRs. This means SOD is hitting for almost as much damage as shocking execution could before the nerf.
Unlike SE, SOD cannot be easily dodged. There are a few ways to evade it such as using powers that make you invulnerable to damage or breaking line of sight but there aren't that many options. SOD is a nightmare for classes that lack most of the defenses that work against SOD.
The SOD tweak also made it so SOD now stores the damage from your attacks even if you missed with every attack you made. I'm not 100% sure this last part is intentional but several months after the SOD tweak, this flaw has not been fixed.
The SOD Tweak Doesn't Just Negatively Impact Other PVP Classes, Its Also a Disaster For the TR Class:
For one thing, the SOD tweak does absolutely nothing to improve TR dps in PVE. Most SOD damage isn't even getting mitigated in PVE anyway since PVE players stack armor pen to 85% and monsters do not have very many lairs of defense compared to PVP players. So the damage from SOD in PVE has not improved much if at all.
To make matters worse, this SOD tweak effectively bars the devs from being able to increase TR damage in PVE without making the TR even more overpowered in PVP. Overpowered sources of piercing damage always create a conflict of interest between the needs of PVP and PVE players. If the devs buffed our overall damage output to help in PVE and left SOD as it is now, we would now have both overpowered piercing damage AND much stronger damage from our regular powers in PVP.
The SOD change also has played a major role in killing 2 out of 3 TR feat trees.
Sabotuer before the SOD change, was able to keep up with executioner as a viable PVP TR spec. Sabotuer did a little bit less damage than executioner did but this was a fair tradeoff considering sabotuer was easier than executioner to play and was a better CC build.The recent change to SOD has pushed sabotuer damage miles behind that of executioner in PVP. This combined with the new CC diminishing returns system has crushed the sabotuer tree and it will no longer be able to compete with the executioner tree in PVP as a result. The SOD tweak combined with the new CC diminishing returns system has hit the scoundrel tree even harder. Before the changes, scoundrel was actually only a little bit behind sabotuer in PVP in spite of how few people play this tree. The change to SOD just like with sabotuer, has made it so scoundrel damage has fallen too far behind executioner to be able to keep up with them in PVP. The CC diminishing returns system has crushed scoundrel even more and it is now miles behind both sabotuer and executioner when it wasn't before.
The Only Way for the Devs to Make the TR Class Balancible Again is to Completely Do Away With the Recent Changes to SOD. This Tweak Will Continue to Complicate and Hogtie Any Balancing Efforts For As Long As it Continues To Exist. The SOD Tweak Should be Replaced With What I Have Written Below:
TRs have been asking for well over a year now for the devs to buff our sources of regular damage, specifically ones that effect our at wills and encounter powers. We don't do enough damage in PVE compared to other classes and in PVP, we are reliant on broken sources of piercing damage and CC builds because our at wills and encounter powers do not dish out enough damage to rely on. If our regular damage was buffed, it would make it so PVE TRs would be able to catch up to other DPS classes in PVE. In PVP, buffing our regular damage would make it so we could once again rely on our at wills and encounter powers for damage, catch up to other classes, and make it so the devs could then tone down our piercing damage without hurting the TR class.
The TRs from the TR rework thread did propose a tweak to SOD but its nothing like the tweak that is currently in place. SOD never needed a damage improvement in PVP so the change to SOD we proposed was aimed solely at improving SOD in PVE without messing it up in PVP. The TR class has an issue where most of their major damage sources are locked behind long delays. The below change to SOD is intended to help reduce this problem and I recommend that the devs include it as part of the upcoming TR rework:
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC
*shrug*
is it possible to make it a pleasant experience?
something like a buff
your party kick you in the (_._)
givining you 10% running speed for 10 min.
stacks up to 3 times
Sandy's Assault Pants = Broken /No cooldown/ no respecting the "new and improved dev pvp Cc immunity "
perma 5 second lockdowns .......... no counter
breaks Pvp !!! wake up !!!
if there is full 2 set of teams using them (cause of no choice because of the devs "pvp vision" fire with fire )that is 10 activation per minutes...ya that should solve the pvp cc spam control problem *sigh*
so this what the devs want ? for every minute that passes in pvp ...potentially there could be cumulatively 30 seconds of player non movements .... (not even including power that will hold and stun initially till the cc kicks in ) and excluding if its 10v 10 or 20 v 20 in strongholds
so devs you fixed the cc system so people could move in pvp and now you want them not to move 50% of the time or more by unresistant able CC piecing control holds that do not respect the new Cc system you introduced
Where/who are the devs responsible for developing this PVP CC system ? batter up its your turn now we are waiting 2 months for any feedback on the system at all that you introduced/ You did not even tweak it at all based on feedback either . ...