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Official Feedback Thread: PVP Changes

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  • khandran#2092 khandran Member Posts: 67 Arc User
    cc nerf was a must. It is the thing that made pvp unapproachable and ruined it completely. imo cc nerf was way overdue.

    I am not 100% convinced that pvp will be viable again for most of us with one-rotating GFs and piercing-fest permaCB TRs still running around but I am willing to give it a go again.
  • andre#8369 andre Member Posts: 61 Arc User
    Cc nerf was good but too far. It only takes 4 stacks, 25/50/75/100, which you get rather quicky and then immuned from cc for 15 seconds, and CB isn't included in that.
  • eldeskaleldeskal Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 214 Arc User
    To play devil's advocate, if this game were rock/paper/scissors, everyone would be up in arms about class balance, because whatever they chose, there's always a build tailored to defeat them. Every build has it's nemesis. Class balance isn't about never having to play against that build; its about drawing a 50/50 mix of owning or being owned, modulo the skill of the players.
  • eldeskaleldeskal Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 214 Arc User
    I would really like to see the devs take a strategy if destructive interference. If two players on a team use the same powers, the second doesn't stack and instead reduces the effectiveness of the first. Then if a class/feat/power is so overpowered that everyone builds a character based on it, it naturally loses its effectiveness. Free class balance. Everyone has at least a second loadout, so there's always an option to deconflict.
  • darthtzarrdarthtzarr Member Posts: 1,003 Arc User
    edited October 2017
    I did not test this very extensively, but noticed some strange behaviors between the new CC resistance/immunity stacks, and the already present immunity stacks for the DC powers Geas and Divinity Break the Spirit.

    The behavior I was seeing was total immunity forever if the powers were used repeatedly on the same target due to one set of immunity going active while the other set of immunity stacks stacked back up to immunity. I don't know if this needs fixed or not, but it seemed a little cheesy to me at first glance.

    What I mean by this is:
    cast 1:
    new cc immunity stack x1
    old break the spirit reduction stack x1

    cast 2:
    new cc immunity stack x2
    old break the spirit reduction stack x2

    cast 3:
    new cc immunity stack x3
    old break the spirit reduction stack x3 Immunity!

    cast 4:
    new cc immunity stack x4 Immunity!
    old break the spirit reduction stack x3 Still Immune


    cast 1 (15s later):
    new cc immunity stack x4 Still Immune
    old break the spirit reduction stack x1

    cast 2:
    new cc immunity stack x4 Still Immune
    old break the spirit reduction stack x2

    cast 3:
    new cc immunity stack x4 Still Immune
    old break the spirit reduction stack x3 Immunity!

    Repeat forever with the two types alternating to overlap and create almost total immunity forever.

    Signature [WIP] - tyvm John

  • kalina311kalina311 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,082 Arc User
    edited October 2017
    Its funny how it is bug fix month and there is plenty of time / resources for all the devs to work on that

    but no development time to comment on/ work on pvp cc changes or tweaks or give any feedback at all
    good thing 12b is the pvp mod ..like they said in a dev stream ..then leave us hanging on a super important controversial CC change ,,

    with no proposed tone down or tweaks despite plenty of good feedback and the new mod looming weeks away .. and no time to test

    and a laundry list of powers that are not giving enough cc stacks or too many or none at all ..
    Post edited by kalina311 on
  • bvirabvira Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 385 Arc User
    Still no change to this CC over-nerf despite overwhelming number of oppositions? I think I'm official done with this game for real.
  • alfalolzalfalolz Member Posts: 161 Arc User
    bvira said:

    Still no change to this CC over-nerf despite overwhelming number of oppositions? I think I'm official done with this game for real.


    well, if the astral shield experimental changes will stay on live with 12b. I'm done as well.
  • darthtzarrdarthtzarr Member Posts: 1,003 Arc User
    edited October 2017
    alfalolz said:

    bvira said:

    Still no change to this CC over-nerf despite overwhelming number of oppositions? I think I'm official done with this game for real.


    well, if the astral shield experimental changes will stay on live with 12b. I'm done as well.
    The changes do seem a bit odd. They made it harder to keep up because apparently high up time was bad, but then changed it to only be really useful if you can cast another spell (or your allies heal themselves) while it is still up. Casting an empowered Bastion of Health inside an empowered Astral Shield is nearly impossible. The power just doesn't seem very impactful when empowered anymore, especially when you realize that the +30% incoming healing means you go from 25% effective healing to 32% effective healing. So a 5,000 (20,000) HP heal becomes a 6,500 (20,000) HP heal. And yes, I understand that 6,500 is 30% higher than 5,000 and is not a bug. I just don't think it is as effective as it sounds.

    It is worth noting though that we asked for more damage, and it looks like we will be getting it. I can see most groups going with a more damage/clear speed related comps rather than trying to just hold nodes with a DC and an OP with this patch.

    Signature [WIP] - tyvm John

  • neoandathneoandath Member Posts: 5 Arc User
    Maybe the devs should consider reducing the effectiveness of recovery in pvp modes by say, 50%. Most of the cc spam that people experience comes from players stacking recovery. I think having cc in pvp is important. Toning down cc can easily be done by capping cooldown reduction and ap gain in pvp.
  • eldeskaleldeskal Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 214 Arc User
    neoandath said:

    Maybe the devs should consider reducing the effectiveness of recovery in pvp modes by say, 50%. Most of the cc spam that people experience comes from players stacking recovery. I think having cc in pvp is important. Toning down cc can easily be done by capping cooldown reduction and ap gain in pvp.

    They've spent every mod since strongholds trying to convince us to stack recovery instead of crit. (though Chult does seem to be going the other way). Nerfing recovery might help for TR permaroot, but no CW stacks recovery because we have spell-twisting.

    Rather than counting stacks, etc, which gets super complicated when there are fast-ticking DoT, they should implement the diminishing returns as a wall-clock timer. If you've spent 70% of the last 15 seconds under control, new control is only 30% effective. then it's about the direct effect to the controlled player, not the mechanics of the controller...seems much easier to predict the QoL improvement.
  • preechr#2215 preechr Member Posts: 488 Arc User
    Back when I attempted to PvP to get Conq Shards for my SH Barracks, a very good GF helped me configure stats on a GF I put all my spare enchants in after not getting enough wins with either my lower level HR (heavily reliant on CC and very effective) or my low level Pally (very tough to kill debuffer) and what I eventually went with was heavily reliant on CC as well, using Crushing Pin and Battle Trample with every encounter, daily, feature and even artifact power using some sort of CC... even put a T.frost in my weapon to get CCs from at-wills and slotted the Shield Ability for Guarded Assault that applies a tiny little slow to anyone that hits your shield, so everything I did applied CC of some kind

    This is not an uncommon or unique build, obviously

    The point of the build is to get the massive %damage increases on people you have CC'd, not to get the effect of the CCs themselves... It doesn't matter if the CC fails or not, you still get the bonus damage

    CC immunity won't affect the strength of that GF build, and though other classes have feats that give %damage on CC'd targets, they also rely much more heavily on the effect of the CC to get damage accomplished
  • khandran#2092 khandran Member Posts: 67 Arc User
    macjae said:

    cc nerf was a must. It is the thing that made pvp unapproachable and ruined it completely. imo cc nerf was way overdue.

    I am not 100% convinced that pvp will be viable again for most of us with one-rotating GFs and piercing-fest permaCB TRs still running around but I am willing to give it a go again.

    Don't forget GWFs and OPs. These changes basically divide classes into two categories: The victims -- CWs, SWs, DCs, and the perpetrators -- TRs, GWFs, OPs, GFs. HRs are somewhere in between.
    Not sure I would class CW as victim here. I Always thought the class capable of very decent burst damage for the amount of control and tankiness it has. Definitely not a victim like SWs or DCs. Getting repelled iceknifed disintegrated with 1 or two strikes of stormspell and chilling presence slotted can be crazy. Not all classes can pull of a bursty combo like that and difficult to avoid unless you have a shield.
    Add spelltwisting and mabye DC arti and rinse and repeat in no time.
    macjae said:


    - Players gain control immunity stacks, which grants control immunity for 4 seconds once they have accumulated 10 stacks.

    4 seconds will not do much, and even worse if the total stacks are 10. I think the devs are ambitious in making big changes to try and reduce the toxicity of cc to max, attract new players maybe that way. And then they will assess the state - is 15s too much or is it right? I think overall more players are excited about the changes than those who are not.
    macjae said:


    The immunity frame itself should be clearly marked.

    Good idea. cc-classes should be able to be strategic instead of blindly wasting encounters.
    macjae said:


    - Control effects grant 1 (slow, root, push), 2 (daze, stun) or 3 (prone) stacks, plus 1 stack per second they remain affected (so a very long-lasting CC effect would potentially give many stacks, eventually granting immunity on its own).

    I agree they should treat them differently. For me, prone should make you immune as soon as you get up. While you are down you can still receive damage and even deflect classes become weak.
  • habeeb#2206 habeeb Member Posts: 50 Arc User
    > @eldeskal said:
    > Sorry, I didn't read the prior 9 pages. I just wanted to comment that CW took major DPS nerfs because "we're supposed to be controllers / support function". Then all the bosses got control immunity, and now PVPers get control immunity. What exactly are we supposed to control? Are we really the trash men of the dungeons?
    >
    > Here's a good test whether a change is sane: if you applied it to the equivalent feature of another class, does it make sense? For example, if we added the same 'diminishing returns' to healing, melee damage and ranged damage, would that make the game more fun? If you've been healed, next heal doesn't work so well...4th hit from GWF does 0 damage? Rogue invisibility distance shrinks on each hide?
    >
    > Heh. Watch the 'disagree' button light up. Let me guess 'CW dosen't require any skill'...heh.

    Haahaahaa yo watch for that smoke. Something is burning in here.
  • khandran#2092 khandran Member Posts: 67 Arc User
    macjae said:

    getting CC immunity after one prone would be ridiculous

    have to agree to disagree. Some classes can one rotate others even with 150k HP exactly due to prone. Giving immunity that starts after getting up from prone will still allow to land additional dps while victim is on floor (with all deflection useless) without one rotating the victim. But I am against any mechanic allowing (approximate) one rotations and others may disagree with me. And this should apply to all classes imo. with self-healing less I don't think smaller than now chain-burst DPS combined with lower capacity to heal is a bad thing. This applies even more to those more reluctant to go to pvp in first place due to overperforming mechanics using cc.

    macjae said:


    I also agree that attracting new players is a priority, but they also risk making PVP boring by overnerfing CC, because it then becomes mostly just a DPS race.

    I am nor persuaded that pvp can be anything else that a DPS race, unless devs spend 100% of their time on it to achieve perfect class balance. I agree that different mechanics are what make a game fun to play though and in spiite of my arguing for a big change to cc what I did love in my toons in pve and pvp (esp. HR) is how their cc could add "flavor" to the class that other classes don't have necessarily - in pvp I like strategy over pew-pew and some cc adds excitement. Pretty sure devs will be keeping an eye on cc changes and may reduce the cc-nerf if they judge that it is too strong. But this may be in mod 13 after trying out the version they have now.
  • mamalion1234mamalion1234 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,403 Arc User
    edited October 2017


    So if heals go down 75% and if i remember well that affect and spells like divine armor they give lesser temporary hit points because of the depression then also should:
    1: swift golden lion -75% in pvp.
    2: wheel earth -75% in pvp.
    3: waters of elhazaad maybe not used often but why this should not hit from healing depression?
    4: templars wrath ( paladin)?

    Everything should be .
  • mamalion1234mamalion1234 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,403 Arc User
    edited October 2017

    BARKshield suggestion:
    Bolstered bark consumed only if the damage is equal or higher than the one charge of the bolstered bark.
    SO on trans level if you get 20000 damage barkshield should spent 1 bark if is under 20000 should not.
  • architect40architect40 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 20 Arc User
    > @macjae said:
    > The Trickster Rogue is in severe need of some major, major adjustments for PVP. While it's true that they are on the weak side in PVE, they are grossly overpowered across the entire spectrum in PVP.
    >
    > To look at this one thing at a time to get an overview of the class as a whole in PVP terms.
    >
    > First, TRs are incredibly tanky. Most of the time, you can't see or target them because of stealth. When you can see them, their dodge rolls are longer than those of other classes, which also provides longer immunity frames. And then, when you can actually target them, they are still the tankiest characters around, with up to 85% damage reduction that you can't mitigate.
    >
    >
    >
    > (This would be a little better if the Foehammer's Favor Elixir had the same effect on TRs as on other classes, reducing the damage taken from a deflection by 20%. Instead, for a TR it is 40% because their deflection severity is higher to begin with, and adding the same linear bonus to their severity then is stupid. That would at least "merely" make them as tanky as characters whose DR is capped beyond any hope of mitigation.)
    >
    > While in and of itself, there's not necessarily anything wrong with TRs being basically impossible to kill, there's not any real trade-off for it either, because they can combine that with very strong damage output and with very strong cc.
    >
    > To look at the damage output first, TRs are currently -- and as they have for a very, very long time -- depending on feat procs for their damage. Now, Shadow of Demise is hugely problematic in that it doesn't really allow any form of defensive mechanisms -- TRs can do massive damage without really landing any real hits, and they frequently use abilities like Bloodbath for this, which simultaneously makes them untargetable so it doubles up as another form of defense.
    >
    > One of the key ways in which players can feasibly survive this is through healing procs, which are being toned down a lot now, which will serve to improve TRs.
    >
    > The other side of the TR offensive coin is that they only need to stack two of the four stats -- Power and Recovery. They get 100% crit chance while in stealth anyway, and spend enough time in stealth that it's not really worthwhile to get any un-stealthed crit chance. They don't need Armor Penetration, just like before, because their main damage output from Shadow of Demise is based on pre-mitigation damage anyway. This leads to them maximizing their base damage values through Power and minimizing their cooldowns via high Recovery.
    >
    > And that leads to the final aspect of TRs -- their control. While it's a good thing that Courage Breaker is being reduced to about ~8 seconds (because the power that doesn't allow control resistance still benefits from control bonuses), that's still a very long time be massively slowed down. Because of their very low cooldowns, TRs will still be spamming it a lot and able to keep people nearly constantly crawling around. And because for some godforsaken reason it still isn't counted as a control power, it won't add any stacks of control resistance or allow the immunity to apply against its control effect.
    >
    > However, the two-fer is the Smoke Bomb, which is a massive area of effect, long-lasting, basically covering a node, and you only get a single stack of control resist from each casting; or possibly each time you enter it, as some tests we've run have indicated, which means it can potentially be gamed to move in and out at the edge to build immunity. Either scenario is pretty bad. Basically, because of their long duration, if a TR only uses Smoke Bomb and Courage Breaker and the victim doesn't get hit with anything else, it will be hard to build up effective immunity, meaning TRs will retain a very high degree of control if played right. The thing here is, this combination is and will remain one of the most potent and cancerous cc combinations available, and your new system of stacking cc immunity doesn't really affect it much in the hands of a skilled TR fighting alone on a node.
    >
    > If there was a Kimmel Test for your cc immunity system, this would be it, and it fails badly.
    >
    > More specifically, TRs
    > - need to be more vulnerable; they should be squishy on par with SWs and CWs, not tankier than OPs and GFs (who are actually not that tanky if they are a high-burst damage spec) -- this means reducing their Deflect Severity, possibly doing something with their stealth (like reduced movement while in stealth, allowing a target that gets hit by a stealthed TR to see them for a while, or something like that)
    > - need to have their damage readjusted so they actually need to land attacks rather than just fumbling about and waiting for random damage procs, and for the damage for most of their encounter powers to not be useless garbage
    > - to have to build Critical Strike and Armor Penetration to be effective as other classes do (but some piercing damage is alright in order to equalize out the damage against high-DR targets compared to low-DR ones)
    > - to have Courage Breaker affected by the stacking cc immunity as any other cc power (no one cares if PVE bosses are affected as if they weren't immune, but it's toxic as heck in PVP); Smoke Bomb should cover a smaller area in PVP zones, have a lower duration, or have its effect changed so as to not be so ridiculous. Other options here would include a cooldown on dailies or a specific immunity to CB for a long time after being affected by it once.
    >
    > It is good if TRs can kill other players. It is not good if TRs can't be killed while still being able to kill anyone. It is not good if TRs retain access to incredible cc while other classes are getting robbed to the point that it will make their future viability highly questionable.
    >
    > Most of all, TRs should play according to their intended role of a fast-moving, hard-hitting squishy trickster, not a permanently invisible perma-ccing main battle death tank.
    >
    > Most of all, the fundamental problem with TRs is that their defenses are too good in PVP, which means that they can't simultaneously have good base damage and remain balanced (but this gets circumvented by stuff like SoD anyway). They need to be less good defensively, to have their encounter attack damage especially be better and to rely less on damage from nonsensical procs. Overall, that would also make it easier to make them stronger strikers in PVE without making every other class redundant in PVP.
    >

    TRs are one of the major reasons why I don't pvp anymore. Along with the trolling full pvp teams that que to just kill pugs (not fun).

    TRs have had many of these issues for very long time. It's always been easy to stack stats because they don't have to give anything up. High stealth, damage, deflect, cc, etc. There have been two TRs in most every pvp match for years because of these reasons which makes the hole thing that much worse. They are in stealth all the time so the players that aren't get targeted first. Their trade offs need to be more severe.

    Also, change pvp to one class per team!
  • neoandathneoandath Member Posts: 5 Arc User
    Are the devs reading these posts? What's the point of this thread when devs do not respond? There are valid issues being brought up in this post specific to pvp imbalances. At least respond so that people know they are not wasting their time with this thread and/or playing pvp in this game.
  • free2payfree2pay Member Posts: 284 Arc User
    You will definitely not revive the PvP scene by buffing TR. You can buff/nerf any other classes but if you buff TR.... speechless....
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