Official Feedback Thread: Bonding Runestone Changes

1679111248

Comments

  • msmariah#2411
    msmariah#2411 Member Posts: 4 Arc User
    Wow, so lame, I feel like I'm being cheated, of all the things I've invested into in this game it's bondings, I have 7 toons, all have decent gears and upgraded bondings. I'm certain this change would bring the value of all the money, time, effort, I've put into the game down so low that it's almost the same as just pulling the server and saying all your money/time/effort is gone. Don't know if I'll continue when you guys also were so tricky by giving us paragraphs and paragraphs of RP changes and at the end throw in a MORE than 50% nerf of bondings in a couple little sentences. Why don't you improve other runestones instead of nerfing bondings? Support roles could use other types anyway but to say "oh this thing is too op we don't want anyone feeling they "have to" get this thing after so many of us "had to" and spent so much money, time, and effort. Is basically saying we'll just screw the loyal longtime players so the new and unknowledgeable ones who don't spend money, time, effort into the game can get even footing. I do realize how abusive a relationship has gone after a time and I will leave.
  • armadeonx
    armadeonx Member Posts: 4,952 Arc User

    Lets do some extremely rough math! Since yall are a bit hysterical, maybe this will help put it into perspective. Using single stat enchants for simplicity, assuming a stat score of 1k per equipment piece.

    Currently

    3xR12 Bondings
    840*3=2520 Bonding stats
    3*1000 = 3000 Gear Stats
    6*700 = 4200 Enchant Stats
    ~1200 Comp stats
    Total= 10920
    Multiplier - 2.85 = 31,122 total stats

    New

    3xR14 Bondings
    1050*3=3150 Bonding Stats
    3*1000=3000 Gear Stats
    6*1000=6000 Enchant Stats
    ~1200 Comp Stats
    Total = 13350
    Multiplier 1.95= 26.032.5 Stats **50% uptime (reasonable change if uptime stays at 100%)

    Augment Pet
    3x2000=6000 Runestone Stats
    3x1000 = 3000 Gear Stats
    6*1000 = 6000 Enchant Stats
    *Don't remember if Augments have comp stats
    Total = 15000 stats, 100% uptime

    Augment with 3x Eldritch
    No Runestone Stats
    3*1000=3000 Gear Stats
    6*1000=6000 Enchant Stats
    Multiplier 1.765
    Total=15,885 stats, 100% uptime

    As you can see, there is no point in buying Eldritch and a pup, so that theory is squashed. The best combo is actually 2 Eldritch for a whopping 16,610 stat points.

    Dev Feedback
    Considering this, please tweak the Bondings to be 100% uptime, with a multiplier in the 1.4-1.5 range and make Power share count as buffed power, not base, and not transfer. Then Bondings will still be BiS, but close enough to Augments that it lets players really choose what they want to use.

    Player Feedback - Keep in mind that with 13 Enchantment slots on each Toon, at a gain of ~300 (single stat) per we're just shifting ~4000 stats to our Toons from the Bonding comps. Not a huge loss at the end of the day, especially if the uptime is changed to 100%, it will be less than 1000 Stat points lost.

    P.S. A stat curve change has been coming for a while - Every MMO does it, usually once a year with a level cap increase. Read the writing on the wall, a lot of us have known it was coming for the last 6 months. I'm fairly certain it will come with Mod 13, and these changes are in preparation for that.

    You have to consider the amount of time it will take to rank up all of those enchantments from r12 to r14. When the change lands, people will instantly drop to their current stats * 82.5% instead of 285%. That is massive. They will then be expected to grind out AD for SMOPS and Coal Wards for each one.

    As nothing has been said on the pricing I don't think it's unrealistic to assume we will be looking at a minimum of 5 SMoPS per enchantment with a 1% upgrade chance (so Coal Ward). Excluding the RP points you will be looking at a minimum of 1.75 million AD per enchantment/runestone - multiplied by 9, means 15.75 million AD to reach a point where your stat loss is 'only' 66% of the previous amount - 33% if they do indeed change their position on the uptime.

    That's a lot of AD just to claw back a fraction of what we lose. I don't know how quickly you make AD but I estimate it would take me appx four months.
    Please Do Not Feed The Trolls

    Xael De Armadeon: DC
    Xane De Armadeon: CW
    Zen De Armadeon: OP
    Zohar De Armadeon: TR
    Chrion De Armadeon: SW
    Gosti Big Belly: GWF
    Barney McRustbucket: GF
    Lt. Thackeray: HR
    Lucius De Armadeon: BD


    Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
  • zomak#4611
    zomak#4611 Member Posts: 223 Arc User
    edited August 2017
    @nitocris83

    On this news I see I have two options.

    1) immediately post my bonding runestones on the AH when I am able to log in tonight and buy an augment companion, specifically the bulette pup that has already been mentioned. This is of course only a viable option if the price of bondings hasn't already tanked and the price of the pup and other augments skyrocketed on this news. And woe to the person who hasn't seen this information yet and buys my bondings.

    2) quit the game entirely or greatly reduce my play when this goes live.

    I will probably go with a combination of both choices.

    I would like to thank you actually. I needed more time to focus on school and my upcoming senior design project. Now that I will not be playing neverwinter anymore I have that time. My wife hates video games and the fact that I spend any time at all playing them so I'm sure she would also like to thank you.
  • msmariah#2411
    msmariah#2411 Member Posts: 4 Arc User
    I was about to buy a large Zen because of the sale and now I think I better hold off, since all my money and effort in entertainment can be dev'd up with the clickity clack of some buttons and a crappy idea. Btw, will you guys buy back my 9 rank 12 bondings, 3 rank 11's and 9 rank 10's at last week's market value because I'm pretty sure they'll be worthless in a second I won't even be able to give them away.
  • rubytrue
    rubytrue Member Posts: 565 Arc User

    Ok lets be productive. I assume the changes are going to happen so here is my feedback:

    - Consider 100% uptime for bondigns. 50% uptime make things unpredictable -> hard to balance stats (crit and armpen are important to balance correctly) -> players angry.

    - Consider giving players more power not depending on the companion. I dont know the best way to do this, equipement, artifacts, enchants, more slots, I dont know but I feel that companions should add power but not more power than the character has. Bondigs allways gave me a bad feeling because of this. Sometimes the companion didnt get into the combat and I felt so unpowered those times.

    - I think this might be impossible to code but consider making all the companions augments that can attack and proc bondings and balance the %s of bondings and other sources because we dont want to return to those times were everyone had the same companion...

    I agree with this to a large extent. If the devs are wanting to simplify things, then, functionally, make augments and companions equivalent with both having 100% uptime. Let's face it, no one picks a companion for the damage it can provide from thier attacks--companions are picked base upon: a) the number of offensive slots it has for Bonding Runestones, b) the active bonus it provides, and c) the gear slots available.

    In the same vein, rather than making Bonding Stones have less uptime, make them functionally equivalent to Eldritch Runestones (or visa versa) with the following variation: Bonding Stones go into offensive slots and Eldritch Runestones go into defensive slots.

    Doing something like this would really greatly expand what companions/augments would be considered "viable" and create a lot more diversity for the player base.

    I would also suggest that the devs make it so that companion/augment bonuses in their gear come from Runestones and not Enchantments. It becomes pretty simple then: You use Enchantments to increase *your* personal gear attributes, and you use Runestones to increase your *companion/augment* gear attributes.
  • maximusgreenius
    maximusgreenius Member Posts: 1 New User
    What I am gathering from the multiple pages of discussion here, is that the majority of players seem to not only disagree with this choice to nerf bondings but infact seem to averse it.
    We shall see if you truly make these forums as a platform for the players voice to be heard and considered. Or if it is just a place to dump our concerned truisms, upon deaf ears.
  • kara#5291
    kara#5291 Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    A lot of people are going to quit this game if this actually happens.. I have had a lot of people say they would. I don't understand how nerfing bondings is going to help us get better. Bondings need to stay the same or Neverwinter wI'll be dead! :(
  • jaime4312#3760
    jaime4312#3760 Member Posts: 844 Arc User
    edited August 2017
    You devs really are shooting yourselves in the foot. If you do this for $$$$$ and you believe you won't lose a lot of players with those horrible changes you're bringing upon our toons and our gameplay "experience" you'll be in for a surprise once that hits live.

    Bondings should retain 100% uptime so companions actually mean jack

    You need to tweak end game content regarding difficulty and loot tables to compensate for siginificantly increased clearing times us players will have. So, taking much longer to run FBI/MSP/TO9G to get a peridot/rank 8 runestone? Nice joke, between those horrible changes, horrible loot tables and new games coming, you will lose a lot for players, your greediness has reached yet a new level, devs.
  • billyg#1903
    billyg#1903 Member Posts: 4 Arc User
    No hysteria - personally i have done the math as well - but also want power on augment if used - lost unless i use an orange defense pet and i have it. Point being - if this is the feedback i am reading in 12 hours now 13 that the game is up - consider the bonding issue resolution - from your customer's feedback. And in the same decision making process to listen or not - consider the downside carefully. I have heard they don't care - they will just do it. Its ok. I could easy adjust and afford to - but would not/ Not because i don't like the people and the game - simply based on the principle that players have been ignored. Still not believable to me a business would not have a player and leader centered focus group or team prior to communications like this. No matter the hysteria or math - it is and still will occur. So why risk it when your suggestion is a good compromise - or better leave it alone - how on earth can players be effective if crit and ap in may case have been refined - and loaded on pets - mount insignia etc.. It is the ignoring that will have cascading impact. The game internally and forums are lit up - people are downloading different games and so upset - i would look to a rapid response - before more damage and issues occur. The hysteria could be tamped down with action.
  • sobac
    sobac Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 417 Arc User
    edited August 2017
    Ok, it's clear that i wouldn't say anything that wasn't said already, but still want to add my 2 cents:

    - Unified RP system - not bad, sounds good on paper :)
    - Making unified RP not account wide is HAMSTER. I'd rather prefer you to remove extra bag slot but make RP account wide like zen.
    - Unified mark system - another "sounds good on paper", i like it :)
    - No more 2xRP - HAMSTER, most of you will just punch me for saying this, but... i like this change too XD Yes, we all refining now when 2xRP, lowering RP needed and no 2xRP will remove that 2 months waiting period. I don't mind at all :)
    - 2 tiers more for stones, etc. - now... i'm not sure here... :| read next point
    - Triple nerf to bondings - STOP, please, STOP HERE!!! Looks like you forgot Mod6. I mean, ok, bonding now are... a bit too op, (CAUSED BY YOU btw, by creating R12 in first place). I don't mind slight nerf to % stat they give us, but, adding AGAIN old CD is a bit too much. Not only that, you are boosting old runestones (good here, +1 for it) too, making bondings stones absolutely useless now!!!! I've only read first 3 pages, but ppl already mentioned that a simple augment will be better. BiS player will have "no prob", ehem, they will just buy new stuff and 2 days later they will have all BiS again, but ppl that have sold everything to boost their stats a bit with bondings, now can shove them where the sun don't shine because stat wise, a simple augment will provide more stats ALL THE TIME!!! The bondings are not a prob, power sharing is. Limit these powers instead of HAMSTER million investment in bondings. All BiS and whales happy: more difficult content, no new items to buy, just adapt and start avoiding red areas instead of standing on them. The rest of mortals will suffer EVEN MORE, but oh well.
    If you still want to nerf bondings:
    - leave % as is (make R14 be like old R12, giving 95%, if you want) and add 50% CD. This will make bondings, in long fights, give 295%/2=147,5% overall stat boost
    - nerf % even more, but without any CD
    - boost by at least FIFE TIMES the damage normal companions deal to make them at least of some value damage wise. Creating 300% soft cap makes debuffing ones even worse!
    If still triple nerf (the third one is boosting eldritch stones to the state when bondings become worse than augment) just create a npc where we can exchange our million investment in new augment and R14 runestones.
    Again, there are better ways to stop this power creep without HAMSTERING it all.
  • martinibfc1
    martinibfc1 Member Posts: 5 Arc User
    > @armadeonx said:
    > I dont understand this change surely the most common sense thing to do would be to rework augment companions and change the other runestones so they're on par with bonding runestones?
    >
    >
    >
    > What is the point nerfing stuff now this is a stupid decision! All you're doing is annoying people and making these people quit the game
    >
    > They did it partly so they could increase the rank of enchantments - that means more refining, which means more wards - so more money.
    >
    > They are not bothered about more stats. If they were, they wouldn't keep adding new sources of stats. They want players at 15-16k to have new things to spend money on. Thing is, even this has been done badly.

    I dont mind them adding more ranks to enchantments in fact i think its good idea the main thing that bothers me is the bonding runestones i have spent alot of time upgrading these these things i have spent literally no money on this game and just constantly grinding refinement but now I've wasted all my time getting these upgraded.

    Im on xbox by the way and I'm not looking forward to this at all such a big change when its not needed all that was needed was the other runestones being buffed and as a whole making augment conpanions on par with normal companions thats it.
  • jumpingmorks
    jumpingmorks Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 876 Arc User

    No hysteria - personally i have done the math as well - but also want power on augment if used - lost unless i use an orange defense pet and i have it. Point being - if this is the feedback i am reading in 12 hours now 13 that the game is up - consider the bonding issue resolution - from your customer's feedback. And in the same decision making process to listen or not - consider the downside carefully. I have heard they don't care - they will just do it. Its ok. I could easy adjust and afford to - but would not/ Not because i don't like the people and the game - simply based on the principle that players have been ignored. Still not believable to me a business would not have a player and leader centered focus group or team prior to communications like this. No matter the hysteria or math - it is and still will occur. So why risk it when your suggestion is a good compromise - or better leave it alone - how on earth can players be effective if crit and ap in may case have been refined - and loaded on pets - mount insignia etc.. It is the ignoring that will have cascading impact. The game internally and forums are lit up - people are downloading different games and so upset - i would look to a rapid response - before more damage and issues occur. The hysteria could be tamped down with action.

    We have a community manager.
  • nomak33
    nomak33 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 6 Arc User
    I have to agree with what the majority of the comments I've seen so far about this change:
    • Reduce stats shared from bondigs and buf runestones to make both viable --> ok
    • Reduce stats shared stats plus cut in half uptime of bonding --> BAD!, really really bad! Are you mad??
    Just this announcement made a complete mess with the price of bondings, they've dropped it's price like crazy... And this whole change feels like another "BAM! I f*ck you because I can, turning all your effort into wasted time!" from the devs. It makes no sense, this will break the already fragile balance of this game.

    I really hope devs figure out a way of balancing bonding runestones that does not turn them into garbage, for their own sake too.
  • tgwolf
    tgwolf Member Posts: 497 Arc User
    edited August 2017

    @noworries#8859

    With the new Eldritch Runestones and an Augment you get roughly 175% of your Augments stats all the time, if I'm reading your table correctly. 195% half the time is not better by a long shot, though I could live with it matching an Augment w/Eldritch at 175% with a 100% uptime to truly give players a choice about how they want to play, and with what companions. As is you're just going to see people brush off their old Augments and shelf their comps.

    This of course assumes you fix the power sharing issue with companions with bondings transferring power from DC/OPs back to the owner for a 4x buff.

    Using Eldrich runestones in that way relies on using an Augment with 3 Defense slots of which there is only the Bulette Pup IIRC. You lose out on stats in that way also, further crippling the gain from it.

    On top of that, an Augment gives raw stats, nothing more. It's also unaffected by buffs of any kind.

    Bondings will still be superior but now they will be in line with how the stat gain should work instead of giving disgusting amounts far beyond what is even remotely necessary.

    And before you say Bondings are required for this or that etc.

    No. No they are not. Augments even poorly equipped do the job with zero issues even now. Hell I unequipped my Augment and all that happened is a slight effort boost was required. Whoop de freakin doo.

    The game is easy, very little is challenging about it and with Bondings right now even that vanishes.
  • santralafax
    santralafax Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,896 Arc User
    This game is becoming very tiresome. I'm at lunch now, but will try to digest this all tonight. I hope that people are wrong about a bonding nerf. How is today's 2xRP affected by late-breaking/unannounced changes???
  • billyg#1903
    billyg#1903 Member Posts: 4 Arc User
    Good to see someone is allocated to be a community manager. Not sure however the community was informed - polled - etc.. as any company would about considerable changes. If it was or there is one - then wouldn't outrage change how the community manager operates. The damage is done. A community manager is post - not pre. It would make far better business sense to get leaders together - work with them on changes - then gain their support at the top. The have them herald the changes down stream to the guilds and then more widely to the constituents in the game. As is evidenced by the entire thread here - there is a lot of disenfranchised, upset, brand ambassadors that just went right off the reservation. This all would have been avoided had a consensus been reached prior. They key will be as a community manager can you absorb sentiment and feedback and take the appropriate steps to adjust your thinking or is this simply an outlet for people to vent. personally in the many many businesses i have been involved with - i would view all this in horror and have a rapid response team to cut this mess off at the knees - thank everyone for their feedback and note that with that the following adjustments. People would appreciate their voices being heard. Now on the other hand if it is ignored then i believe you will find resentment, exodus, brand issues and be left with a middle manager making a terrible decision. Would be smart to compile the feedback in a report up to the whoever makes decisions and see if they are willing to live the impact - project impact - and make a business decision to see if there is a tolerance for it - given the downside. Its not my business it is someone else so i am not here vested into decision making - i can project accurately however that this is not a good one. Good luck - govern yourself accordingly.
  • morgrim66
    morgrim66 Member Posts: 47 Arc User
    I can only imagine that you are planning this change to rebalance gameplay, reduce the amount of power bloat in character/companion builds so that you can scale content more efficiently in the future and remove some current mechanics that allow players to ignore game/encounter mechanics. However it does feel like a slap in the face to everyone who has spent so much time/effort/money in collecting/ranking up the appropriate companions and bonding stones. I play on PS4 I have 3 characters at or over 15k item level. I have 9 rank 12 bonding stones. It was very expensive to get there. I can currently fill any role for any content available in the game (dps/support/tank) with my characters. It would be highly discouraging if this change were to mean that I simply could no longer be successful at content I have already mastered. Additionally I have no interest in spending weeks trying to rebuild just so I can do content that i have already run and from which we get useless drops anyway.

    I see an enormous negative outcry from this proposed change to the bonding stones. If this change does not break the viability my characters as currently built then I will not be wildly upset about it in regards to my personal experience. However I am not certain that I would want to continue playing a game where the developers ignore or discount such a loud and concise outcry from their customers.
    Morria Grim 16,133 DC
    Morgrim Orcbane 16,530 CW
    Bloodlust Barbie 15,646 OP Tank
  • ravenskya
    ravenskya Member Posts: 1,891 Arc User

    That is the gist of it, taking players out of content that THEY CURRENTLY COMPLETE.

    FOR GARBAGE REWARDS - rank 5 in MSPC? I see it wasn't bothered to address THAT issue
    Founding Member of "Wrong Side of the Stronghold"
    Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR
    Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP

  • agilesto
    agilesto Member Posts: 516 Arc User
    @tgwolf
    2 words: Bulette Pup. Suddenly 3 defense slot augment! Wow didn't see that one coming did you?
  • bomber#0573
    bomber#0573 Member Posts: 156 Arc User
    I do not think that this is a good option for the game and see it causing MANY MANY people to leave.
    I personally have spent an amount of real life money on this game somewhere in the high four figure mark as I am sure many others have. Part of that money has been spent on bondings/echantments/etc, other random items for my 14 toons, and the rest on trying to better our guild (ie boons). I understand that it is a "Free To Play" game and that nothing in the game is technically owned by us (characters, guilds, anything), be that as it may we as customers have stupidly spent a lot of cold hard cash on our accounts doing our part to keep the lights on at PWE and Cryptic.

    Putting all personal feelings aside and looking at it purely from a business standpoint, pushing forth changes like this that will impact your top customers (paying) more than anyone else is not a good move and it may cause you to lose a lot more revenue than you stand to gain.
  • jumpingmorks
    jumpingmorks Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 876 Arc User
    tgwolf said:

    @noworries#8859

    With the new Eldritch Runestones and an Augment you get roughly 175% of your Augments stats all the time, if I'm reading your table correctly. 195% half the time is not better by a long shot, though I could live with it matching an Augment w/Eldritch at 175% with a 100% uptime to truly give players a choice about how they want to play, and with what companions. As is you're just going to see people brush off their old Augments and shelf their comps.

    This of course assumes you fix the power sharing issue with companions with bondings transferring power from DC/OPs back to the owner for a 4x buff.

    Using Eldrich runestones in that way relies on using an Augment with 3 Defense slots of which there is only the Bulette Pup IIRC. You lose out on stats in that way also, further crippling the gain from it.

    On top of that, an Augment gives raw stats, nothing more. It's also unaffected by buffs of any kind.

    Bondings will still be superior but now they will be in line with how the stat gain should work instead of giving disgusting amounts far beyond what is even remotely necessary.

    And before you say Bondings are required for this or that etc.

    No. No they are not. Augments even poorly equipped do the job with zero issues even now. Hell I unequipped my Augment and all that happened is a slight effort boost was required. Whoop de freakin doo.

    The game is easy, very little is challenging about it and with Bondings right now even that vanishes.
    Then remove them, augments and companions. It's not like we need them right?

    And for most content we don't need them.

    A couple days ago I was really proud of myself when I finally got the Curator Acheivement. Then someone in Legit told me to recheck the Achievements and lo and behold another acheivement showed up, restore each set and get them to legendary.

    I really want to master this game, at least master what I want to master, but what's the point when instead of providing another goalpost to aim for, you teleport the player back. I don't feel like I'm progressing, I feel like I'm pushing a rock up a hill that I will never reach the top of.

    For some their investment relies on real life money, for some, their time is their currency. If neither is worth investing what happens to the game?