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Dev Blog: Stronger Enemies, Stronger Equipment

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    thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User
    @asterdahl I am kind of disappointed the new enemies are not level 74, with monsters being more resistant, it would seem reasonable that they would be higher level as well. Also, the level scaling against level 74 enemies would make for much more engaging content, at least in my perspective.
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    asterdahlasterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer

    @asterdahl I am kind of disappointed the new enemies are not level 74, with monsters being more resistant, it would seem reasonable that they would be higher level as well. Also, the level scaling against level 74 enemies would make for much more engaging content, at least in my perspective.

    Enemies will be significantly more difficult, they may even be harder than standard level 74 enemies in some cases. There are factors at play as to why we don't want to raise the level of enemies any further. (The stronghold event where enemy level is raised continually until you can't survive is a special case.) There are combat modifiers in place that penalize your damage against enemies 3 levels and more above you in a way that can't be overcome with stats.

    If we continued to raise the level of enemies, your damage values would be going down dramatically. We'd rather increase the amount of defense and hit points enemies have instead of further clamping damage with combat modifiers. We could change the way combat modifiers work and raise the level of enemies, but we'd like to avoid this as if we ever raise the level cap in the future, it would make it very difficult to handle the levels of enemies. Player and enemy levels would get wildly out of sync or we'd have to dramatically adjust existing content. I want to make it clear that there are currently no plans to increase the level cap, but this is part of the consideration for why we are approaching the increase in strength of enemies in this manner.

    The fact that we're not raising the level of enemies does not mean they won't be notably more difficult.
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    thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User
    edited June 2017
    asterdahl said:

    @asterdahl I am kind of disappointed the new enemies are not level 74, with monsters being more resistant, it would seem reasonable that they would be higher level as well. Also, the level scaling against level 74 enemies would make for much more engaging content, at least in my perspective.

    Enemies will be significantly more difficult, they may even be harder than standard level 74 enemies in some cases. There are factors at play as to why we don't want to raise the level of enemies any further. (The stronghold event where enemy level is raised continually until you can't survive is a special case.) There are combat modifiers in place that penalize your damage against enemies 3 levels and more above you in a way that can't be overcome with stats.

    If we continued to raise the level of enemies, your damage values would be going down dramatically. We'd rather increase the amount of defense and hit points enemies have instead of further clamping damage with combat modifiers. We could change the way combat modifiers work and raise the level of enemies, but we'd like to avoid this as if we ever raise the level cap in the future, it would make it very difficult to handle the levels of enemies. Player and enemy levels would get wildly out of sync or we'd have to dramatically adjust existing content. I want to make it clear that there are currently no plans to increase the level cap, but this is part of the consideration for why we are approaching the increase in strength of enemies in this manner.

    The fact that we're not raising the level of enemies does not mean they won't be notably more difficult.
    @asterdahl I am well aware that I would deal 50% (33% relative to level 73 content) less damage natively to level 74 enemies, that some debuffs would be 50% less effective against level 74 enemies and that some buffs (like the wheel of elements or the stronghold overloads) would be 50% less effective against level 74 enemies and I still think from a balancing standpoint, at this point in the game, it is what the game needs. At this point in the game players simply deal too much damage with the gear they have available, relative to the content and making monsters require 20% more RI isn't going to change that.

    Making stuff have more HP isn't a feasible way to go here imo, as sooner or later you will encounter the issue WoW had, whereby they were forced to downscale and normalize stats due to hitting limitations like the 32 bit integer. Introducing higher level monsters is 1 way to normalize player damage without raising monster HP.
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    muminekm#3459 muminekm Member Posts: 248 Arc User
    Actually I'm happy. I started playing little more than 6 months ago and I decided to skip relic armor. Now I'm wearing MM pieces and some dungeon/SH gear. But I would like to be able to just normally earn new set using seals (I'm really into grind that I can plan..not RNG one).

    And for campaign - harder content sound just right - even more since my DC (on 1/3 of his future dmg potential) can easily solo SKT or RD now like Sharandar.

    @asterdahl
    What IL is considered high for those dungeons? 12, 14k? And it will be one or more dungeons? (I don't know if you made typo or it was intentionally). You also mentioned Ostorian rings in seal vendor. Only Ostorian or Greater Ostorian will be purchasable too?
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    rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,405 Arc User
    asterdahl said:



    You will also be able to purchase Ostorian rings which may be salvaged directly, so you won't need to restore relic equipment for salvage. Alliance equipment may already be earned in dungeons and elven equipment will be still be available to earn for transmutes, just not with seals.

    Hmm... Interesting. I'm curious:

    1) Will the Ostorian rings from the revamped Seal vendor be BtA ala current Alliance gear?

    If so... thank you! For making my life easier in gearing up alts!
    If not... then meh.

    2) If Ostorian rings are becoming BtA in the revamped seal vendor store, then is it possible for you guys to make all our Greater Ostorian rings BtA as well?

    The +5 underdark rings are BtA, and if you make the Ostorian rings from the new Seal vendor BtA, that means that leaves the Greater Ostorian rings as the only useful rings which are BtC. Which would mean that these useful rings might be stuck on a character that has little need of it (ex: I can't really make use of the Orange Helligs on my GF, but I know my DC can).

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    hustin1hustin1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,460 Arc User
    Interesting. I was just about to take my HR out of the turtle-shell mode when we tried (and failed) to beat Hati in FBI. In turtle-shell mode her defense breaks 45k and her damage resistance goes up to about 128%. I even went back to Drowned weapons from Lifeforged. I think I'll leave her in that mode until I see what the new module looks like.
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    thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User
    I would also like to add @asterdahl that since players can visibly see these monsters are higher level (since it is indicated they are level 74) they know that these monsters will be harder than level 73 monsters and it won't "feel bad" as it were, unlike mod 6 which felt like a direct nerf. It would feel more like enemy progression imo.
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    minotaur2857minotaur2857 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,141 Arc User

    asterdahl said:



    Not with Module 12, but we do have plans for new PvP equipment in the not too distant future.

    Best PvP set is 435 IL
    Except for the IL 450 mastercrafted PvP stuff

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    treesclimbertreesclimber Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,161 Arc User
    edited June 2017

    asterdahl said:



    Not with Module 12, but we do have plans for new PvP equipment in the not too distant future.

    Best PvP set is 435 IL
    Except for the IL 450 mastercrafted PvP stuff

    Can't get much better than prestige + psion's shroud/ deepknight brigandine/ guild marks equivalents.


    perhaps they will adjust bonding stones and other buffs.

    I dreamed a dream in time gone by
    When companion dps was high and worth having,
    I dreamed that full offense tanks would sometimes die
    I dreamed that protection was worth upgrading

    But a bonding came to my side,
    With it's voice soft as thunder,
    Told me "I will tear your hope apart
    I will turn your dream to shame"


    @asterdahl just one more question, you say :"Port Nyanzaru’s vibrant bazaar", is there requisites of previous campaigns completions to access this area?

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    ghoulz66ghoulz66 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,748 Arc User
    We need content, not more gear to grind. Once you get that gear, where's the damn content? One new dungeon? As if the last one was so amazing, that so few people have actually bothered unlocking and running it. Will this one include more BS mechanics?
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    dupeksdupeks Member Posts: 1,789 Arc User
    asterdahl said:

    During planning for Module 11B, it was a tough call for us whether we wanted to add new masterwork recipes as we knew we would be adding new sets of equipment in Module 12 that would compete with it directly. However, in the end, as we were adding a lot of new Stronghold content, the time seemed right.

    @asterdahl @nitocris83 I think you made the right decision, but it would have been better to communicate this ahead of time.

    I think it would have been really beneficial to add some more of this context when you were releasing the MW updates. You could have outlined the objectives for the MW armors as "best trade-able armor" and "help gear your guildies" and emphasized that additional content-related armors are likely planned for later in the year.

    Would that have dampened some of the enthusiasm for MWs? Probably some. But also probably not that much. Folks would still chase BiS and the "best trade-able armor" bit definitely rings true compared to current content gear sets.

    I think with that groundwork laid, you'd be able to roll out Mod 12 and say "we're excited to introduce what we hinted at earlier!" to much excitement and fanfare. And you wouldn't risk folks feeling misled.

    I understand that pre-announcing planned updates in such a way carries some risk, and there's a certain safety in saying nothing at all. But in this case I think you could have hinted more strongly and it would have gone a long way towards avoiding any sourness with the new content being released later.
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    asterdahlasterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer


    @asterdahl just one more question, you say :"Port Nyanzaru’s vibrant bazaar", is there requisites of previous campaigns completions to access this area?

    There are no plans for previous campaign requirements on accessing Port Nyanzaru.


    @asterdahl I am well aware that I would deal 50% (33% relative to level 73 content) less damage natively to level 74 enemies, that some debuffs would be 50% less effective against level 74 enemies and that some buffs (like the wheel of elements or the stronghold overloads) would be 50% less effective against level 74 enemies and I still think from a balancing standpoint, at this point in the game, it is what the game needs. At this point in the game players simply deal too much damage with the gear they have available, relative to the content and making monsters require 20% more RI isn't going to change that.

    Making stuff have more HP isn't a feasible way to go here imo, as sooner or later you will encounter the issue WoW had, whereby they were forced to downscale and normalize stats due to hitting limitations like the 32 bit integer. Introducing higher level monsters is 1 way to normalize player damage without raising monster HP.

    We don't currently have any concerns with hitting the float cap. It's actually fairly standard in MMOs for difficulty of monsters to increase independently of their level at endgame. The issue with combat modifiers is that in a few levels you would almost deal no damage to enemies. We don't want this idea that you have an attack that does a specific amount of damage, and then arbitrarily as we introduce new zones and dungeons the maximum damage it can deal is going down even as your equipment is getting stronger.

    I understand your point though, damage players can deal is quite high and the increase to enemy strength has been a long time coming. We're watching and making adjustments. The strength of enemies is going up both in the open world zone in Chult as well as in dungeons. I'm not going to say that the average enemy is going to give you a run for your money if you're at 14k, but there are some new strong enemy types that and mechanics we're introducing that might surprise you. (More on that in future blogs.)

    The dungeon bosses will definitely be challenging, and the standard enemies will be stronger than before. We're also aiming to make these sorts of increases to enemy strength more frequently to coincide with the addition of new equipment. So we'll continue to make adjustments to ensure the player's strength isn't completely eclipsing the challenges we add to the extent that it has been.

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    adinosiiadinosii Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,294 Arc User
    Two things I am kind-of wondering about. One is whether the current 60% RI maximum (for PvE) will be enough or if any monsters will require more.

    The other is more of a general ovservation on gear progression and such. I am slightly irritated that after spending a lot of effort (and quite a bit of AD) on getting my Masterwork professions, some of the items I can made (and have made for mydelf) are now no longer BiS for me, but at least I have something to aim for.

    Thing is though.... while getting new shiny and fancy gear is nice and all that, the game is a bit lacking in content that actually requires that new gear. IL 16K characters don't really have many challenges in the game at the moment - I hope M12 brings some.

    At any rate I am really looking forward to getting this.
    Hoping for improvements...
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    thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User
    asterdahl said:


    @asterdahl just one more question, you say :"Port Nyanzaru’s vibrant bazaar", is there requisites of previous campaigns completions to access this area?

    There are no plans for previous campaign requirements on accessing Port Nyanzaru.


    @asterdahl I am well aware that I would deal 50% (33% relative to level 73 content) less damage natively to level 74 enemies, that some debuffs would be 50% less effective against level 74 enemies and that some buffs (like the wheel of elements or the stronghold overloads) would be 50% less effective against level 74 enemies and I still think from a balancing standpoint, at this point in the game, it is what the game needs. At this point in the game players simply deal too much damage with the gear they have available, relative to the content and making monsters require 20% more RI isn't going to change that.

    Making stuff have more HP isn't a feasible way to go here imo, as sooner or later you will encounter the issue WoW had, whereby they were forced to downscale and normalize stats due to hitting limitations like the 32 bit integer. Introducing higher level monsters is 1 way to normalize player damage without raising monster HP.

    We don't currently have any concerns with hitting the float cap. It's actually fairly standard in MMOs for difficulty of monsters to increase independently of their level at endgame. The issue with combat modifiers is that in a few levels you would almost deal no damage to enemies. We don't want this idea that you have an attack that does a specific amount of damage, and then arbitrarily as we introduce new zones and dungeons the maximum damage it can deal is going down even as your equipment is getting stronger.

    I understand your point though, damage players can deal is quite high and the increase to enemy strength has been a long time coming. We're watching and making adjustments. The strength of enemies is going up both in the open world zone in Chult as well as in dungeons. I'm not going to say that the average enemy is going to give you a run for your money if you're at 14k, but there are some new strong enemy types that and mechanics we're introducing that might surprise you. (More on that in future blogs.)

    The dungeon bosses will definitely be challenging, and the standard enemies will be stronger than before. We're also aiming to make these sorts of increases to enemy strength more frequently to coincide with the addition of new equipment. So we'll continue to make adjustments to ensure the player's strength isn't completely eclipsing the challenges we add to the extent that it has been.

    @asterdahl I understand that increasing the level of monsters would eventually lead to issues, particularly when pushing from level 75 to 76, which would reduce player damage at that point by 96%, but you could very well raise the level of monsters to 74, then later on when necessary 75 and players would still be able to clear content. By the time raising monster level to 76 becomes something to consider, the level cap for Neverwinter should clearly be raised anyhow, since power scaling will have got so far out of control, that a new set of stat curves are in order. True, you could achieve the same effect by increasing monster HP etc, but it reaches a point where the damage values players are seeing on their screen are largely meaningless to them and are just arbitrary large numbers.

    And yes, against newer content, players would see their damage go down, but in older content, they would very clearly see a sharp increase in their power level, which would counter this.
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    thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User
    edited June 2017
    asterdahl said:

    what similarities can we expect between module 6 and module 12?

    @asterdahl

    We are not increasing the player level cap, we are not increasing the level of enemies, and we are anot removing existing content, we are not increasing the item level of artifact weapons, we are not adding new profession ranks.

    Of course, there will be new enemies that are stronger than enemies you've yet faced, and there will be new equipment to earn, but we've increased the item level on equipment and added stronger enemies in many modules that did not include a player level cap increase, so you could say that Module 12 does not share a lot in common with Module 6.


    there is nothing you said that I dislike! I strongly approve of just increasing difficulty adn increasing il and leaving the levels and other things alone. I haven't played the new mod yet but the system of "do the least harm" is the right one imo. it's nice to see the game not doing things to infuriate the player base like mod 6. lol well done! any chance of a number on how much arpen we will need going forward though? (and I hope the levels are NEVER increased again personally. no mod 6 repeat please..lol)
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    dupeksdupeks Member Posts: 1,789 Arc User
    adinosii said:

    One is whether the current 60% RI maximum (for PvE) will be enough or if any monsters will require more.

    blog said:

    The long and short is that enemies in Chult will be more dangerous, tougher to defeat, and you’ll be looking for new sources of armor penetration and defense to combat this.

    Emphasis added by me. I think this is a pretty compelling hint that both enemy DR (max 59.5%) and enemy RI (usually 15%) are getting adjusted. I would bet my hat that you'll need some more RI (but with ArPen overstacking as bad a problem as it is, you'll probably be able to find some without too much trouble).

    Asterdahl confirmed that they care currently not increasing max mob level. So the only way that the monsters could be tougher is if they got higher DR or higher HP (and hit harder heh).
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    straylight#4129 straylight Member Posts: 5 Arc User
    kinda <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> how console hasn't even got the new masterwork stuff and you guys just killed the market. A half of mod and mw armor is irrelevant, the logic behind this is crazy. We don't need new gear we need new content, aka dungeons. Who knows if the time and loot outweighs fbi. I seriously hope you don't screw this up like msp and make it bta
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    jaime4312#3760 jaime4312 Member Posts: 844 Arc User
    @asterdahl

    You need to consider what many players have been suggesting since mod 10, ostorian rings need to be BtA not BtC, it needs to happen. Also, as SKT is now old content and players will be looking forward to get new items and try new mods, you really need to make it so we can get the Greater Ostorian rings with seals, that way we can actuallly get them in a reasonable amount of time and without depending on RNG.
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    urabaskurabask Member Posts: 2,923 Arc User
    edited June 2017

    asterdahl said:



    If i remember correctly unrestored relic equipment is only salvageable for 1k rough ad, consider not remove elven from the seals vendor for 2 reasons, it's a unique transmute and some people (like me)

    You will also be able to purchase Ostorian rings which may be salvaged directly, so you won't need to restore relic equipment for salvage. Alliance equipment may already be earned in dungeons and elven equipment will be still be available to earn for transmutes, just not with seals.

    Ofc alliance gear can be obtained.




    I just hope this is not a nerf to seals reward.
    Alliance rings/belts cost 300 seals and are worth half the rough AD of an elven ring. So if we were going by AD the exchange rate should be 1:2. Doesn't instill much hope.

    What would be really insulting is if the rings available in the seal vendor weren't +4. We're past the point where single slot rings are acceptable for anything.
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    heraldfayez#8520 heraldfayez Member Posts: 227 Arc User
    asterdahl said:

    what similarities can we expect between module 6 and module 12?

    @asterdahl

    We are not increasing the player level cap, we are not increasing the level of enemies, and we are anot removing existing content, we are not increasing the item level of artifact weapons, we are not adding new profession ranks.

    Of course, there will be new enemies that are stronger than enemies you've yet faced, and there will be new equipment to earn, but we've increased the item level on equipment and added stronger enemies in many modules that did not include a player level cap increase, so you could say that Module 12 does not share a lot in common with Module 6.

    As a bonus, as I imagine this will be asked: we are not adding any sort of charging mechanic akin to black ice or voninblod to new equipment in Module 12.
    scathias said:

    I guess this is a done deal and all since there is no way cryptic would listen to players about something like this, but it really makes me upset that masterwork gear is pushed as the Endgame of crafting and yet it consistently is lagging behind in strength.

    Why on earth should I go through the effort of creating or buying masterwork ilv 480 gear for myself if next mod it is going to be obsolete?

    I understand that vivified relic armor has been around since mod 10 and in that sense it is time for an upgrade, but the masterwork armor isn't even a mod old yet and it is already worthless.

    @nitocris83 @asterdahl can you please ask for or provide some information on what is going to happen with masterwork armor in mod 12? buffing it to ilv 500 would make the most sense so that it remains competitive. I imagine that the mod 12 armor will have a set bonus so there it will remain BIS... I just want a reason for masterworks to exist

    During planning for Module 11B, it was a tough call for us whether we wanted to add new masterwork recipes as we knew we would be adding new sets of equipment in Module 12 that would compete with it directly. However, in the end, as we were adding a lot of new Stronghold content, the time seemed right.

    However, this is why the new recipes in Module 11B are easier to unlock and easier to build than the original recipes. Additionally, 480 will still be a very strong item level, the new non-masterwork recipes coming in Module 12 will only produce 420 and 430 equipment. You can imagine the recipes added in 11B as intermediary recipes, expect masterwork to continue to see support in the future.

    I would like to dispel the notion that current masterwork items have no place though. People are buying and selling those items right now, and will continue to do so. Obviously the prices will be affected by news and the eventual arrival of more equipment options, but this is the economic nature of the system. If you're only interested in making sure you have best in slot for yourself, I would not recommend pursuing masterwork, but instead purchasing those individual masterwork items when they happen to be best in slot for you. Masterwork is a system for those who enjoy professions and would like to make a profit.

    However, your profit margins are going to fluctuate wildly based on how quickly you unlock new recipes, how you obtain your materials, how well you collaborate with others, etc. There is no world where the return on investment ratio for masterwork remains static continually. And that is not something we're going to attempt to pursue to the detriment of the game's progression overall.
    Can You Please PLEASE please tell me what i'm doing wrong i played Demogorgon more than 3000 times aleready and i have not received 1 brutality ring +5 or rising power +5 i have lost hope and intent to quit the game soon because of this frustration my guild mates who ran for it after me got thiers in few tried but i keep getting +1/+2 and even with new system in fact because of the new system i can't even run it that much anymore i used 2 stacks of keys at a time when new changes hit in and no ring

    do we get new rings that have utility power like brutality / rising ..etc in new Mod ?
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    theraxin#5169 theraxin Member Posts: 370 Arc User
    edited June 2017
    MC II vs new mod set

    In offense: "Best tradeable armor." This is a pretty meaningless title to validate the 2 million AD prize and how quickly it got devaluated.

    And it's not correct that we were not noted that MC II is only for a specific playerbase. Or at least mention that "there is a high chance of a same level gear coming in the next mod".

    Moreso, seemingly there's no logic in the rates of item devaluation and this sucks away the dedication to invest in anything. Like, why should I bother grinding for the best companion gear from IG if it can change in a half mod? How can we know that 500 IL is worth getting and there's no intention to make 520 IL gear in the mod13? Or mod12b? We should be knowing more about the risks if you want us to invest in something.

    In defense:

    I'm actually not suprised that the new set is better than MC II (only with the rate) and most of the players shouldn't be either. Relic set has got the strongest set bonus in it's own content and I was sure that mod12 set will have a similar advantage. And gearwise it's worths to be built specifically for the actual hard content than having the general best (or changing gear for every dungeon). For example, if you only find challenge in FBI and MSP does not seems to worth running for you, Relic is way better than MC II. So if the set bonus encourages (what I think it'll do) the mod12 set in the new dungeon, we would be using that anyway for the best result regardless if it's 465 or 500 IL.

    If I read right, it actually hurts a minor part of the MC II. Like, the weapon set is still remain in the same state, no new tier necklace of belt is coming and most often Greater ostorian/underdark is considered to be the best ring anyway and no PvP part of course. For me, it does like nothing, I'm using 3 relic +Jarl's gaze anyway instead of MC II.
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    fizgigtiznalkie#4436 fizgigtiznalkie Member Posts: 372 Arc User
    @asterdahl quick question since the phrasing "removed" was used, is the alliance and elven gear dropped in the existing dungeons changing at all? Is it becoming no stat transmutes like the castle never drops?
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    markeen#2032 markeen Member Posts: 302 Arc User
    edited June 2017
    I like the ideas coming for Mod12. As a console player playing catch up. It's been very time consuming, frustrating, difficult and not fun to earn some of the BiS Armors. So much that I gave up. So the armor changes would be helpful. Additionally, I play with 1 other person in my guild and we are constantly trying to pug dungeons and such and never get in. Seems like the only way is to join in a premade group. So we haven't been doing dungeons. This change is an alternative that will help us enjoy the pve content without dying a lot and without the pressure of having to join premade groups for dungeons and such.

    The only thing I would change is the amount of content vs time to obtain and restore. For instance, in river district, by the time you obtain and restore the weapons you've completed the campaign and there isn't a reason to go back.

    In SoMI, the weapons ability only apply to giants. And again, by the time you restore the weapons the campaign is done and there is no reason to go back. The ability becomes useless.

    It would make more sense to include more playable content to these updates so the time put in restoring isn't wasted. I know console has the rest of Cloaked coming but I imagine the story only takes a couple hours.
    Founder of Knights of Ra guild in Neverwinter PS4. Founder of The Arashikage Clan in Defiance, formally of PlayStation Home.
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    wintermurlocwintermurloc Member Posts: 106 Arc User
    Are the upcoming armor sets going to have a zone specific bonus? With the existing inventory issues, it's a burden to keep a lot of sets around. If only you guys could provide a toggle for set bonuses like the mount stables, I would happily salvage everything and move on to the next best thing without feeling pressured to keep stuff just to maximize on performance. You could even restrict us to switch set bonuses as per the zone.
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