Trickster Rogue Class Balance Suggestions

1111214161719

Comments

  • blur#5900
    blur#5900 Member Posts: 490 Arc User
    Tested Duelist's Flurry a bit. This at-will should have the word random in its name.
    There are 3 parts to it. First part is Duelist Flurry, second part is Duelist Flurry Hits and third part are the Duelist Flurry Bleeds.

    First part seems to be fine for everyone and it has 2 slow hits.

    Second part is the problematic part and it causes the biggest issue. It is not forgiving to lag which causes skipping the hits. Players without lag, when testing alone should always have 9 hits in this part. However players which have lag even when testing alone can have this number reduced to as low as 2 hits only, maybe even less. Now add 4-9 more players(or more) into small area with abilities and enchants which increase the lag and the number of the hits in this part probably varies from player to player. Most problematic thing about this is that these hits which skip are the ones which apply Bleeds by chance so not only Bleed stacking and damage suffers but also the damage from hits themselves suffers. Number of Bleeds applied from 9 hits is random since application of Bleeds is a chance.

    How many times do the Bleeds tick? This seems to be random as well. Testing showed me numbers from 5 to 11 times. 2 Bleed stacks ticked 5 times. 1 Bleed stack ticked 7 times. One full DF worth of Bleed stacks ticks from 8 to 11 times.

    We have been using incorrect numbers for this so far so wanted to clear this up.
    image
  • mafiadelperro#8853
    mafiadelperro#8853 Member Posts: 56 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    Sometime i only see 3to5 tick of bleed on dragon turtle,it ends before turtle actually going under water also dont know about the damage of bleed 3milions drascatically go down each tick 3,2.5,2,mil this suppose to work like this? Well sometimes turtle is laggy as hell
    Post edited by mafiadelperro#8853 on
  • mageddo#6766
    mageddo#6766 Member Posts: 60 Arc User
    Aside from the bugs which definitely need fixed. I think our mechanic needs adjusted. I'm all for not having prolonged or perma stealth. However when that was taken away it hurt. Like getting beat in paingiver by a lower level GWF hurt.

    We deal most of our damage outside of stealth which logically speaking in this fantasy world doesn't fit. We should deal more damage while in stealth. We can keep the duration but let's make an impact when we can stealth. Others have said to add crit severity while in stealth. Which is a good idea. Just finding the right amount is difficult. If a stealthed figure was able to stab something not only could it deal more damage but be a calculated pinpoint attack at an artery or organ. It should be a deadlier attack.

    With keeping the nature of a rogue in mind instead of a feat that can daze, why not have all attacks from stealth have a daze for 1 second half that on players. This would open up more power choices instead of relying on smoke and dazing strike for control. Seems right that if an invisible entity ran up and smacked you in the face you would be dazed and confused. This along with the increased severity could make WK more viable.

    Speaking of whisperknife because they miss out on the damage that MI has we should look at increasing the damage dealt by dagger threat.

    If this makes PvP TRs more powerful I am sorry. I don't play PvP so I can't be the best judge. I do know that pve players of any class should not be punished for what happens in PvP. I have played other mmos and they just change how powers work in both game types not rob Peter to pay Paul.
  • sherifftruman
    sherifftruman Member Posts: 26 Arc User


    We deal most of our damage outside of stealth which logically speaking in this fantasy world doesn't fit. We should deal more damage while in stealth.

    TR has been built, at least as I understand it and see stealth with other monsters and stealth pets/enemies (consider Shadow Demon, Ambush Drake, etc) in game to work in two ways:

    1) Do damage while stealthed.
    2) Do damage upon the exit of stealth.

    I think both logically make sense in a fantasy world. As mentioned earlier in the thread, my preferred style is the second. Several years ago, when perma-stealth was an option, it was possible to completely solo dungeons. Even in a fantasy world, I find that prospect logically a bit world breaking. I'm not against stealth getting a bit of a boost, but it doesn't make sense to remain stealthed permanently either.
    Guild Officer of Greycloaks

    Kaelyx - TR: Whisperknife
    Kae'lyxstra - OP: Protection
    Kae-lyxa - DC: Divine Oracle
    Kael Blazebeard - GWF: Iron Vanguard
  • mageddo#6766
    mageddo#6766 Member Posts: 60 Arc User
    > @mageddo#6766 said:
    > Aside from the bugs which definitely need fixed. I think our mechanic needs adjusted. I'm all for not having prolonged or perma stealth.

    As I said permastealth is not something we should have.

    It makes more sense to do more damage in stealth than out.

    You know who does more damage out of stealth? Every other DPS class lol.
  • sirjimbofrancis
    sirjimbofrancis Member Posts: 348 Arc User
    After 14 (!) pages of suggestions and feedback from players, we decided to compile the best suggestions into a new thread to make it easier for the devs to read and see. Please continue to discuss and debate here so we can keep that on relatively clear for them. And, Thank you, everyone, for helping to make this productive and (hopefully) helpful!

    James

    Here is the new thread:
    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1231317/tr-compiled-balance-suggestions/p1?new=1
    Lilia Drakon - PVE Executioner TR
    She Looked Lvl 18

    Here is my Blog
  • sirjimbofrancis
    sirjimbofrancis Member Posts: 348 Arc User
    Ugh... Looks like it was removed for some reason... No one has notified me of a reason, yet, but as soon as I know, I'll try to fix it and put it back up.
    Lilia Drakon - PVE Executioner TR
    She Looked Lvl 18

    Here is my Blog
  • silktrocity
    silktrocity Member Posts: 239 Arc User


    That said, I just checked and tenacious concealment and shadow of demise have more differences in their wording than I realized:
    Tenacious Concealment: "reduce stealth "loss" from incomming damage."
    Shadow of Demise: "your stealth "regeneration" is no longer interrupted when taking damage"
    As mentioned in previous posts, both of these do not do exactly what their tooltips say they are suposed to. If the actual mechanics of these 2 powers matched their tooltips exactly, then these 2 powers would differ from each other considerably.

    CORRECTION TO SOME OF MY PAST POSTS:

    In a previous post, I said Shadow of Demise currently works the same way Tenacious Consealment does instead of Shadow of Demise doing what it's tooltip says it does. This turned out to be incorrect, I just tested the differences between Tenacious Consealment and Shadow of Demise on preview server. These were my findings:

    Normally, when your stealth gage is recharging, and you take damage, two things happen to your stealth gage simultaneously:
    #1 your stealth regeneration is interrupted (your stealth stops recharging for a few seconds)
    #2 You lose a chunk of your stealth regeneration progress (your stealth recharge progress jumps down a little)

    When I tested Shadow of Demise, #2 still occurs when you take damage but #1 does not. This means that SOD does in fact do exactly what the tooltip says it does, your stealth regeneration is no longer interrupted when taking damage. The reason SOD is underwhelming enough that we thought it didn't match the tooltip is because SOD doesn't stop your stealth recharge progress from being depleted by incomming damage.

    Tenacious Concealment when I tested it, appears to not work at all. Even after a couple hours of testing, I could not tell the difference between slotting it and unslotting it. I will need to test it again later with some more precise stuff to be sure. Theoretically, when you take damage, #1 and #2 should still occur but #2's effects should be reduced. It should also reduce how much stealth you lose when you take damage while stealthed.

    Now that the true cause of TC and SOD's lameness has been diagnosed, here is an update to @silktrocity 's idea:
    Your stealth meter will take a little longer to recharge than it does currently.
    Your stealth regeneration will no longer be interrupted when you take damage.
    When your stealth bar is recharging, taking damage no will longer deplete your stealth regeneration progress.
    Taking damage while stealthed will still deplete your stealth the way it does currently.

    Thank you for reiterating what I was trying to get at in my original post but with a much better description. I feel the stealth loss while taking damage heavily puts a damper on our potential damage. We are melee characters that almost always have to be in the thick of things. With the crazy amount of AoE's in this game we are almost always taking some form of damage and since a lot of our self buffs are reliant on our stealth this can create problems and nerf our DPS. We are basically given 2 choices while in combat;

    1. Roll away from combat and find a safe place so that our stealth can recharge.
    2. Stay in the heat of battle, take the damage and have our recharge rate be much much longer.

    Both of those decrease our damage drastically.
    Lady Vayo TR - Silky OP - Lord Reven DC (retired) - Lady Luck HR (retired)
  • trgluestickz
    trgluestickz Member Posts: 1,136 Arc User
    edited May 2017

    Aside from the bugs which definitely need fixed. I think our mechanic needs adjusted. I'm all for not having prolonged or perma stealth. However when that was taken away it hurt. Like getting beat in paingiver by a lower level GWF hurt.



    We deal most of our damage outside of stealth which logically speaking in this fantasy world doesn't fit. We should deal more damage while in stealth. We can keep the duration but let's make an impact when we can stealth. Others have said to add crit severity while in stealth. Which is a good idea. Just finding the right amount is difficult. If a stealthed figure was able to stab something not only could it deal more damage but be a calculated pinpoint attack at an artery or organ. It should be a deadlier attack.



    With keeping the nature of a rogue in mind instead of a feat that can daze, why not have all attacks from stealth have a daze for 1 second half that on players. This would open up more power choices instead of relying on smoke and dazing strike for control. Seems right that if an invisible entity ran up and smacked you in the face you would be dazed and confused. This along with the increased severity could make WK more viable.



    Speaking of whisperknife because they miss out on the damage that MI has we should look at increasing the damage dealt by dagger threat.



    If this makes PvP TRs more powerful I am sorry. I don't play PvP so I can't be the best judge. I do know that pve players of any class should not be punished for what happens in PvP. I have played other mmos and they just change how powers work in both game types not rob Peter to pay Paul.

    I agree that our tab mechanic badly needs to be adjusted.

    As for your idea of making all attacks in stealth deliver a micro daze, this does have some uses but it also has some areas where it won't be that useful:

    In pve if you are already stealthed, most mobs won't attack you anyway so there is little reason for the mobs to be dazed while you are stealthed. The exception is the scoundrel TR which deals more damage to controlled foes. It may have some mild potential for protecting teammates if you are using aoes but its usefulness is very situational.

    In pvp, your suggestion is really useful. This may be a surprising assessment for some since the most similar thing we have to your suggestion, talisman of shadows is mostly garbage. Your suggestion unlike talisman of shadows, can be used more than once per stealth. This gives it enormous potential as an HR-style chain of interrupts. You could take a rapid fire power like cloud of steel and use it to trip up your foe with a stream of annoying little micro dazes.
    To tell you the truth, this daze suggestion of yours doesn't need to be halved in pvp. Between all the tenacity, deflect, various sources of control resistance, etc that players have in pvp, the daze will already be extremely short in pvp, there is no need to halve it.

    If a cap ends up being needed for your suggestion I suggest this:
    You should only be able to daze a foe up to 6 times with your suggestion before it goes on internal cooldown for 6 or 8 seconds.
    This cap takes into account two things:
    The earlier suggestion of unnerfing stealth/making it so our at wills no longer drain stealth.
    Builds that make heavy use of stealth such as the current recovery/power pvp TR meta, full permastealth setups, or other builds that might be a little too good at chaining this daze.
    A cap may not be needed but I bring this up to safeguard against permastun setups.

    Your suggestion would be a great way to rework our passive talisman of shadows. I don't think its likely the devs will implement your idea as a given for all TR stealth but it would go great as a passive.

    I don't think our dazing scoundrel feats should be replaced with your suggestion. The scoundrel tree has the least amount of stealth out of all TR trees, this is partly for thematic reasons and partly to provide a reasonable con to balance out the pros.
    Mechanics that work off of stealth don't tend to work as good for scoundrel TRs because they have less stealth to begin with.
    That, and scoundrel losing all of their other dazing feats would not be good for scoundrels either. The daze from scullcracker is currently useless but concussive strikes is a good feat that shouldn't be taken out.
    Post edited by trgluestickz on
    --
    PVP Rogue,
    --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
    Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
    Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
    Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
    Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
    Platform: PC
  • sirjimbofrancis
    sirjimbofrancis Member Posts: 348 Arc User
    Compiled thread is back up and Kreatyve was super nice. Thanks!
    Lilia Drakon - PVE Executioner TR
    She Looked Lvl 18

    Here is my Blog
  • trgluestickz
    trgluestickz Member Posts: 1,136 Arc User
    edited May 2017

    Compiled thread is back up and Kreatyve was super nice. Thanks!

    @sirjimbofrancis @blur

    TY, I'm glad the thread is back up

    I have read through it and found it to have a few errors and several important ideas that should be mentioned but aren't. I will be posting multiple responses in this thread explaining and mentioning these. I would like to request you to update the new post with these missing ideas and corrections as they come:

    More bugs to add or update discriptions of:

    The section on smoke bomb mentions that the daze does not apply combat advantage. This is actually part of a larger issue with TR dazes in general. It is listed in your post as being smoke bomb specific and the other dazes subject to this issue are not mentioned. Dazing strike is the only TR daze that applies combat advantage. It is really important that all TR dazes be changed to once again grant combat advantage. This problem includes TR feats with daze effects, its not just passives and powers.

    Our passive, Tenacious Concealment may not be working at all. just rank 4 was previously reported to be bugged but after both my testing and a friend's testing, it would appear that Tenacious concealment does not work at all. your entry on tenacious consealment also does not accuratly explain what it actually is suposed to do, see my 3rd post down on post edit sugestions for more details on that.

    Multiple people have stated that our heroic feat Action Advantage may not be working either.

    Razor Action only double procs in response to bloodbath as far as I know. In your post, the cause of this double proccing is not mentioned. Its also not the only passive that does this. Infiltrator's action and invisible infiltrator are also subject to this bug.

    Other suggestions to your post:

    Consider adding in the current tooltips for each of the powers/feats discussed word for word before each section. Its unlikely that many of the devs are going to be familar with TR feats/powers and this will help them fully grasp the changes we are proposing.

    Please update your section on increasing the animation speed of TR powers with the following details:

    A passive power update that increases the speed of all powers for WKs has been refined and discussed in depth on the old thread. This change would greatly improve WK damage output while simultaneously providing a neat mechanic specific to WKs. Check pages 12 through 13 for the full discussion.
    There are some TR powers that will need speed increases dished out individually:
    Gloaming Cut:
    This at will power needs its animation speed increased by a lot. At its current speed, it cannot compete with our other at wills at all.
    Courage breaker:
    It could use a speed increase, its animation is widely hated and very clunky.
    Sly Flourish:
    Could use a speed increase, it doesn't need as dramatic of a speed increase as gloaming cut but it could use maybe 25% increase.
    Impact Shot:
    This power could use a mild speed increase.
    Shadowstrike:
    This power could also use a mild speed increase
    Post edited by trgluestickz on
    --
    PVP Rogue,
    --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
    Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
    Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
    Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
    Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
    Platform: PC
  • trgluestickz
    trgluestickz Member Posts: 1,136 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    @sirjimbofrancis @blur

    Your section on scoundrel suggestions needs more work done on it. Several of the important issues with our feats were not mentioned:

    The scoundrel feat survivor needs to be mentioned, its easily the worst feat in the entire scoundrel tree. This excerpt from an old post of mine explains why:
    This feat is very outdated and pretty much useless for both pvp and pve. Back in the day, this feat was good because there were fewer sources of self healing and you would both hit low health more often and you would be more likely to linger at low health. As a scoundrel nowadays, if you hit 30% health, you will either die to a followup blow or heal back up in seconds. There is no inbetween and you do not linger at low health long enough for this feat to be worth taking. I would suggest reworking this feat to something that is still oriented towards deflection or other self defense but is more appealing."

    The scoundrel feat concussive strikes also needs to be mentioned. Its good in pve as is but in pvp it needs to be adjusted. Here is an excerpt from one of my past posts explaining what it needs:

    "Concussive strikes has no issues in pve but in pvp, its daze is too short. The daze in pvp was halved a long time ago to keep it from being too strong. There are now a lot more sources of control resistance in this game than there used to be and this halved daze hasn't scaled well in pvp as a result. It should be increased to 1.8 seconds or 2 seconds in pvp up from 1.2 seconds."

    The scoundrel feat mocking gesture needs to be mentioned. Here is an excerpt from one of my older posts explaining its problems:
    "This feat is in a similar hole as Survivor. While its a little bit better than survivor, it still does not see much use. This feat is also something of an oddball in that it is the only feat scoundrels have that involves stealth and is a little out of place. It works okish on pvp builds with more recovery and stealth where you have the best chance of keeping it up as often as possible, but even then this feat is difficult to maintain and other feats typically outweigh it. Since this feat is pretty sub-optimal for a scoundrel but fits right in with the sabotuer tree, I would suggest removing blood soaked blades from the sabotuer tree and giving them mocking gesture instead. Then make an entirely new feat for the scoundrel tree."

    A feat that is a mix of more damage and more utility would be a good thing to replace mocking gesture with.

    The section you have on scullcracker needs some modifications:

    Firstly, the 15% speed increase you suggested making only last for 7 seconds alongside the damage bonus. This speed increase should be made permanent instead at the very least. I also suggest for it to be increased to 20%.
    Secondly, get rid of the part that says "Your attacks extend this daze by additional 0.5 seconds up to a maximum of 2 additional seconds." This bit has always been unneeded clunkyness and should be taken out. Instead, the daze should be modified to simply last 6 seconds (less in pvp, 3 would be good) instead of being a 4 second extendable daze.
    The daze should also be upgraded to a stun.
    If the daze is upgraded to a stun, it could be shortened to be 4 seconds in pve and 3 seconds in pvp.

    If the daze is not upgraded to a stun, then the following needs to be done:
    If scullcracker is kept as a daze, the trigger for scullcracker needs to changed to something other than "when you use an encounter power". Perhaps scullcracker should trigger " when you hit with an attack" instead of "when you use an encounter power" if the daze doesn't get replaced.
    The reason for this is because powers with dazes already built in can also trigger scullcracker meaning you end up with 2 overlapping dazes quite often. Upgrading scullcracker to a stun would at least hold the target still for you and make it so your scullcracker CC doesn't get completely wasted when you trigger it with a dazing power. The trigger rewrite would also solve this issue by giving you the option to trigger the daze with at wills or dailies instead of wasting it on an encounter power that already has a daze.

    On another note, I'm not sure why you decided to change the duration of scullcracker's damage buff to 7 seconds up from your previous suggestion of 6 but I suppose that's fine.
    Post edited by trgluestickz on
    --
    PVP Rogue,
    --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
    Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
    Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
    Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
    Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
    Platform: PC
  • trgluestickz
    trgluestickz Member Posts: 1,136 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    @sirjimbofrancis @blur

    Update for your section on CB:

    On your section on CB, its says the debuff duration against players should be lowered. Its not just the debuff that makes it so good in pvp, the slow is also a huge part of what makes it powerful.

    Here is an update to DF that should be Mentioned in your post:

    Durring a flurry, you cannot simply walk away and if you want to end it early, you need to dodge. DF's flurry lockdown should be modified to where you can end it by walking away. If this change is made, the devs should take care not to accidentally remove the CC immunity you get durring the flurry or the cling effect.
    In PVP, the cling effect is vital for landing your flurrys against moving opponents. In PVE, the cling effect can be a double edged sword if you are fighting mobs near a cliff and a party member shoves the monsters off the edge, everywhere else, this is a helpful feature. In both PVE and PVP, the CC immunity effect is really nice and has no cons.
    Also, as part of the TR rework, these 2 features should officially be added to the tooltip discription for duelist's flurry, they have been there since forever and its high time the tooltip actually mentioned them.

    Here is a good sugestion for the heroic feat scoundrel training that you should include:

    "This feat should be changed to grant you 5% more at will damage whenever you have combat advantage, this change would be more solo play friendly and would be up more often in PVP than it currently is. While you are at it, go ahead and change all copies of this feat from the other classes to this, HR also has this feat if I remember right."

    Here are some additional sugestions for the sabotuer tree to add to your post:

    The sabotuer capstone should get something similar to the old profound armor set bonus, which was "you have 30% more stealth meter and deal 7.5% more damage while stealthed". Here would be a very simple improved version:
    You have 25% more stealth meter. Every 15 seconds, you gain the one with the shadows effect. One with the shadows: the next hit you deal with an encounter power refills your stealth bar. For 10 seconds afterward, you deal 20% more damage with your encounter powers.

    Sabotuer Tree, Shadowy Opportunity:
    I propose raising the piercing damage granted by this feat. Perhaps raising it to 90% of weapon damage or even 100% of weapon damage.

    Sabotuer Tree, Flashing Blades:
    Raise the damage granted by this feat to 8%

    Here are some updates to TR stealth that should be included in your post:

    In the past, TR at will powers did not drain stealth. This effect should be re-implemented.

    There was a discussion on what is actually wrong with tenacious consealment and SOD's effects on Stealth. Here is a post of mine that sums it up, you should make a section in your post on this:


    That said, I just checked and tenacious concealment and shadow of demise have more differences in their wording than I realized:
    Tenacious Concealment: "reduce stealth "loss" from incomming damage."
    Shadow of Demise: "your stealth "regeneration" is no longer interrupted when taking damage"
    As mentioned in previous posts, both of these do not do exactly what their tooltips say they are suposed to. If the actual mechanics of these 2 powers matched their tooltips exactly, then these 2 powers would differ from each other considerably.

    CORRECTION TO SOME OF MY PAST POSTS:

    In a previous post, I said Shadow of Demise currently works the same way Tenacious Consealment does instead of Shadow of Demise doing what it's tooltip says it does. This turned out to be incorrect, I just tested the differences between Tenacious Consealment and Shadow of Demise on preview server. These were my findings:

    Normally, when your stealth gage is recharging, and you take damage, two things happen to your stealth gage simultaneously:
    #1 your stealth regeneration is interrupted (your stealth stops recharging for a few seconds)
    #2 You lose a chunk of your stealth regeneration progress (your stealth recharge progress jumps down a little)

    When I tested Shadow of Demise, #2 still occurs when you take damage but #1 does not. This means that SOD does in fact do exactly what the tooltip says it does, your stealth regeneration is no longer interrupted when taking damage. The reason SOD is underwhelming enough that we thought it didn't match the tooltip is because SOD doesn't stop your stealth recharge progress from being depleted by incomming damage.

    Tenacious Concealment when I tested it, appears to not work at all. Even after a couple hours of testing, I could not tell the difference between slotting it and unslotting it. I will need to test it again later with some more precise stuff to be sure. Theoretically, when you take damage, #1 and #2 should still occur but #2's effects should be reduced. It should also reduce how much stealth you lose when you take damage while stealthed.

    Now that the true cause of TC and SOD's lameness has been diagnosed, here is an update to @silktrocity 's idea:
    Your stealth meter will take a little longer to recharge than it does currently.
    Your stealth regeneration will no longer be interrupted when you take damage.
    When your stealth bar is recharging, taking damage no will longer deplete your stealth regeneration progress.
    Taking damage while stealthed will still deplete your stealth the way it does currently.
    Post edited by trgluestickz on
    --
    PVP Rogue,
    --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
    Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
    Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
    Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
    Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
    Platform: PC
  • trgluestickz
    trgluestickz Member Posts: 1,136 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    @sirjimbofrancis @blur

    Here is a good sugestion to impact shot that should be added to your post:
    The pushback from this power should be greater the closer you are to the target. Its shove is currently a little weak and this would be a great way to buff it.

    Here is a sugestion for blitz to add to your post:
    blitz's springback animation as discussed earlyer in this thread is very clunky and should be removed or modified. its slow is also pitifully short and it should have its duration increased.

    Here is a sugestion for shadowy disappearence to add to your post:
    This power currently is nearly useless in combat and is not well designed. Its only really useful for out of combat pass times like exploring maps. Here is my suggested redesign:
    Remove the mini stealth from this power altogether. Increase the radius of the entry point and exit aoes. Any targets struck by the aoes are stunned for 1 second and cause you to regain 20% of your stealth bar per target hit.
    Stealthed: You are not removed from stealth. This power changes from aoe to single target and marks the target instead of its other effects. While the target is marked, you may activate this power a second time to consume the mark, switching places with your target and stunning them for 1 second. This mark lasts 15 seconds or until the distance between you and your target is greater than 80 feet. you may only have one target marked at a time.

    Here is a sugestion for deft strike to add to your post:
    Make it so this power grants you and your allys combat advantage against the target for 5 seconds. Remove the ability to teleport to allies when stealthed from this power altogether, this effect tends to irritate players more often than it helps them when they mistakenly target an ally instead of an enemy. Replace this power's stealthed effect with something else, here is my suggestion: Stealthed: in addition to this power's other effects, you and you allies deal increased combat advantage damage to the target for 5 seconds and this power's range increases to 80 feet.

    Here is an exceprt from an old post of mine with a sugestion for sneak attack to add a section on:

    "Sneak attack I find fun to play with but its pretty worthless in pve. It is actually a decent passive in pvp though other passives still outweigh it.
    Interestingly, neverwinter's version of sneak attack is one of the most far removed powers in the game from its d&d counterpart. The NW version gives you 40% more speed while stealthed. In comparison, the d&d version had nothing to do with speed at all and instead gave you extra damage when you had combat advantage against your target. The NW version is almost never used but the d&d version was a bread and butter power for rogues.
    I would like to see sneak attack's current effects extracted and given to a different passive of ours. This would be in addition to whatever effects X passive selected for this has post rework.
    Sneak attack's current effects should then be replaced with a new effect that gives you more damage when you have combat advantage. This would be much closer to how it worked in actual d&d and make it more appealing as well. It also helps fulfill a lot of TR's requests for more stuff working off of combat advantage.
    Another viable trigger option is to make it so sneak attack gives you more damage while you are stealthed instead of when you have combat advantage."

    Here is a post with sugested changes to piercing damage in general that would grealy help TRs. It also diagnoses some issues with disheartening strike being easily interruped. These would be a good thing to mention in your post:
    rustlord said:



    Piercing

    It's the heart of all the shitshow in PvP. If you would make piercing respect tenacity, and as a compensation make it ignore all forms of shields and temp HP you've effectively given TR a role in PvP again: kill healers and tanks with piercing damage, while dealing normal damage to everybody else. This creates a ripple effect down the line addressing a massive problem of overhealing and insignia and lifesteal. There's another thread for that icy wrote, or some guy, but it's very informative if you want to dig it up.

    But beyond that, neutering piercing damage also gives our good ol' hardworking PvE boys here a little more wiggle room when suggesting balance changes for PvE content. As of right now, Shocking Execution is your biggest hurdle if you ever start tampering with things like crit severity or shadow of demise.

    Edit: more info

    WK > Disheartening Strike has a very long cast time. It takes you nearly half of your stealth meter to cast it from the safety of Stealth, or rooted for that long out in the open with no defensive mechanisms like ITC. It does 700~2000 ticks on a geared target. and any slight jitter movement cancels the power and just adds to its clunkiness. It only serves to balance this power to have the same healing-depression debuff to targets affected by disheartening strike.


    Post edited by trgluestickz on
    --
    PVP Rogue,
    --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
    Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
    Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
    Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
    Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
    Platform: PC
  • trgluestickz
    trgluestickz Member Posts: 1,136 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    @sirjimbofrancis @blur

    Here is a wicked reminder bug @Micky1p00 mentioned that should be added to your post:
    micky1p00 said:

    From another thread, and it's a known bug, I remember it from mod5 rework:

    Any suggestions what to do when OwtS procs and the stealthbar won´t fill up to max? After Lurker or WW no problem, but without? Is this a bug or do I misunderstand the capstone somehow? Also it makes Ambushers Haste useless cause my stealthbar stays at 95%. This costs me a lot of damge as MI Sabo.


    And that remind me, WR animation is bugged, it tries to do all available charges, even if pressed only once and not held. It forces to cancel it by other action. It shouldn't work like this.
    Here is another post that brings up a serious issue with how combat advantage currently works, CA is currently added to Crit severity. This should be adressed in your post:
    micky1p00 said:

    What if -
    TR encounter powers when executed from Stealth, have a % chance to renew your stealth meter. A couple of them do this already at 100% occurrence when they're used. But what if they all are assigned a % to proc and extend your ability to damage from the shadows?
    It would be as if you struck the foe and managed to remain in their blind spot.
    It wouldn't happen every time.

    The chance to proc ought to be higher when facing foes 1:1, making you more formidable in that arena; a smaller chance to proc when facing a mob since more eyes may be upon you.
    And I was also thinking that depending on what encounter power you use from shadows, some have a higher % to proc and refresh your stealth. Lashing Blade for example, would hardly ever proc when amidst a group, but Dazing Strike might since you just clobbered everyone again and they lose track of you.

    There may be times where enemies are wondering "Where's the TR!? Damn it, where are they!?" and that should absolutely happen at times.


    What if -
    Use of any attack - At Will or Encounter Power - when executed out of stealth gives a % chance to briefly place you in pseudo-stealth, where your next strike automatically gains Combat Adv. It does not provide the stealth benefit of powers with Stealth effects.
    It's simply to gain a hit with Combat Adv. damage, briefly, without doing anything special.
    It's not much but would push the damage bar up a little.
    Maybe the bar could be raised higher by giving rogues more Combat Adv. bonus per CHA point. And that ought to help them when in groups too yeah?


    I believe TR's _should_ be entering and striking from shadows more frequently than current mechanics allow. I heard this was so in the past and it was overpowered - well, they fixed it by over-nerfing, so why not find a balance instead.
    I believe Combat Adv. when owned by a TR should be something to fear for how they will next exploit it.

    3. CA is unfortunately added to crit severity, this means the added DPS from it is significantly lower than what it should be. Additional issue is that usually players have almost 90+% CA up-time even without special bonuses, and much easier with stealth, daze, and infiltrators action. So gaining more CA up-time is unfortunately redundant.

    I personally would love to see CA damage separated from crit severity and then a feat, rotation synergy around it. As it's also a positioning mechanic that supposed to make the combat more interesting, but for now it's tuned down..
    Post edited by trgluestickz on
    --
    PVP Rogue,
    --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
    Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
    Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
    Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
    Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
    Platform: PC
  • trgluestickz
    trgluestickz Member Posts: 1,136 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    @sirjimbofrancis @blur

    Talisman of Shadows Update to add to your post:

    In your new post, talisman of shadows has nothing listed except for making it grant 5% more lifesteal. This while good does nothing to adress the current issues with its daze. Here is a better fix:

    In PVP: All of your powers used from stealth stun the target for 1 second. You may daze a foe 6 times this way before talisman goes on cooldown for 8 seconds.

    In PVE: When you enter stealth, you gain 5% more lifesteal for 12 seconds. This effect does not stack.
    Post edited by trgluestickz on
    --
    PVP Rogue,
    --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
    Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
    Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
    Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
    Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
    Platform: PC
  • blur#5900
    blur#5900 Member Posts: 490 Arc User
    @demonmonger "There are a few correction that need to be made in the list of explanations and fixes as well... not all of the info is 100% correct"
    Constructive feedback, remember? Seems like you want us to guess which those are.

    @trgluestickz Thank you for analyzing this to details. There are definitely some things which we missed. Some of the suggestions were not included because they werent agreed on or didnt seem balanced.
    The rework of the classes doesnt seem to be a priority for the devs, especially the TR class, we all know how long it has been avoided. Adjusting every single power and feat is nice and all but that means adding more work for devs and that is not in our favor, we are just shooting ourselves in the foot. I mean lets be real, we all know everything wont be adjusted. If it would it's easier for devs to completely delete the class and build it anew. Keeping it simple and focusing on less abilities which are most troublesome gives us more chances. I'll try to give my opinion on as many suggestion as i can and i am sure those who have better understanding of game mechanics would find more flaws or possible abuses.

    Maybe i am missing something but why is it expected from Dazes to give CA? None of the daze powers state that CA is granted. Maybe Dazing Strike is the problem and not all others since its the only one giving CA?

    If Tenacious Concealment doesnt work it should be included ofc. Are we sure it doesnt work?

    Same for Action Advantage feat. Some say it works, others say it doesnt. Better not include it at all if we are not sure about it.

    To be clear about passive interaction with Bloodbath. Each hit of the Bloodbath activates II and IA? Each hit of Bloodbath triggers RA once or twice for each hit?

    Special mentions to Gloaming cut, Courage Breaker,Impact shot and Shadow stike in speed increase section is ok i guess. Sly flourish increase is tricky, ability is hitting quite hard, 25% speed increase means more instant damage.

    I agree on Survivor feat, we missed it but no clear suggestion was given.

    Concussive Strikes daze is too short? Thats with Elven battle enchant? What about those who dont use Elven Battle? Increase in daze duration would hurt them more.

    Mocking gesture given to Scoundrel seems intended since the tree has lowest Stealth of the 3. Removing it and giving it to Saboteur, then removing Sabouteur's BSB and then making a new feat for Scoundrel is the unnecessary work added to devs which i spoke of in beginning. Is it really that bad if it stays untouched?

    Permanent and increased movement speed from Skullcracker. But why? Permanent compared to current doesnt seem balanced at all. We already have permanent movement speed increase from Skillful Infiltrator and it forces us to use a passive slot. Imagine Skullful infiltrator+Sneaky attack+permanent Skullcracker speed+Gladiator's Guile+Artificer's Persuasion. Speedy Gonzales?
    The part with dazes seems unnecessary complicated while it already seems fair and balanced. You have a point with overlapping dazes from few powers but oh well. All 3 capstones are triggered by an encounter, dont see why Skullcracker should be different. We only have dazes and a prone from WK's HK, adding a stun is another complication.

    The slow part in Courage Breaker is also a part of debuff so its duration is lowered as well.

    I dont know why walking away from Flurry animation would be helpful.

    Scoundrel training feat. Making it work with CA is nice but current allows 9% increase to foes which arent targeting you. Its not solo friendly as you said but it shines in group content.

    More Stealth for Saboteur which is already a tree with most Stealth seems unbalanced and an unnecessary complication.

    Shadowy opportunity suggestion is fine i guess.

    Flashing blades are ok as well.

    Our atwill are highest source of damage already. Making them not drain Stealth is making them overpowered. It would allow them to be used from Stealth almost permanently.

    Impact shot suggestion. Ok, why not.

    Same for Blitz.

    Shadowy disappearance seems fine for normal version. Stealthed version seems Vengeance's Pursuit v2.0 and switching places part wins the trophy when it comes to complications.

    Deft strike seems fine.

    Movement increased when stealthed is typical for Rogues, its present in other games as well. In NW its called Sneaky Attack. It may seem lame but some passives will always be preferred more than others, after all we only have 2 slots.

    When it comes to piercing damage opinions are divided. Some suggest complete removal of piercing damage, some want more of it...

    Wicked Reminder bug was removed on purpose. I have tested it and it works fine. Probably fixed at some point.

    CA added to Crit severity should be included but i dont know if this is TR or general problem.


    I dont speak for others, this is my view and to me a lot seemed complicated and not needed. I am trying to keep it as simple as possible and focus on the less abilities i can, those which cause the biggest issue. I mean, would it really hurt us that much if most of these werent changed? If the push from Impact Shot would stay the same, if we cant walk away furing flurry, if atwill still drain stealth, if Skullcracker stays with daze... ?
    In my opinion its small things without big impact while they are unnecessary pile of work for devs. In the recent past we saw what rework means. Usually a bug fix, or making 1-2 abilities perform less or more. Last time a big change was done was probably TR rework in mod5(?). All these suggestion would make other abilities more appealing and may cause more variety but i doubt they will be even considered.
    That being said, i would be happy if 10% of the most game changing suggestions mentioned in new thread would be implemented but i am afraid even 10% is too much to ask for.
    image
  • sirjimbofrancis
    sirjimbofrancis Member Posts: 348 Arc User
    I appreciate all the suggestions you have put forward here, @trgluestickz, but I agree with @blur#5900. I'd like to add that our list is already quite extensive. Each power and feat that is changed increases the probability of creating something that is unintentionally over powered. We all know what happens then. We get nerfed right back to where we are now. Let's not cut our nose off to spite our face, you know?

    We will add the suggestions that Blur outlines above ASAP. Thank you.

    @demonmonger, let us know of our inaccuracies. We are clearly not above making mistakes. We all want to improve the class here, so let's keep it constructive and helpful. Just telling us to fix our mistakes, while good advice, isn't exactly the best constructive criticism we've gotten. Clearly, if we knew where our mistakes were, we'd have done it already.
    Lilia Drakon - PVE Executioner TR
    She Looked Lvl 18

    Here is my Blog
  • sirjimbofrancis
    sirjimbofrancis Member Posts: 348 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    I will say that, as per @micky1p00, daze is supposed to grant CA. We should list every power that dazes and doesn't grant CA in the bug section in one line to keep it simple.

    Here's more reading if anyone is interested: http://janne.coreside.com/mechanics/combat-advantage
    Lilia Drakon - PVE Executioner TR
    She Looked Lvl 18

    Here is my Blog
  • rustlord
    rustlord Member Posts: 1,454 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    blur#5900 said:

    I mean lets be real, we all know everything wont be adjusted. If it would it's easier for devs to completely delete the class and build it anew.

    Would it be so terrible if we gave them any ideas? I could be totally talked into a limited-time class exchange option thru the rewards claims agent like Lostmauth, if it meant getting to keep boons, power points, artifacts and same-level class specific gears unbound as if it was a total Trickster Rouge Refund. I aint joking.
    blur#5900 said:

    Maybe i am missing something but why is it expected from Dazes to give CA? None of the daze powers state that CA is granted. Maybe Dazing Strike is the problem and not all others since its the only one giving CA?

    I was told that for other classes, it does. At least for CW it does.
    blur#5900 said:

    That being said, i would be happy if 10% of the most game changing suggestions mentioned in new thread would be implemented but i am afraid even 10% is too much to ask for.

    I'm fine with that being rework on Stealth crits, a generic buff to WK, a nerf to shocking, and any from a list of random things anywhere else.
  • mafiadelperro#8853
    mafiadelperro#8853 Member Posts: 56 Arc User
    I really like what you guys have done i still think that our stealth mecanic is less than other classes but oh well i am not far from other classes just fixing the bugs and buffing some others stuff will do the job also with the suggestion on the new post i think i can do a speed run like the other classes especialy if mecanic deathknell last moment SOD etc with my current built will be able to compete thanks all TRs that contribute
  • blur#5900
    blur#5900 Member Posts: 490 Arc User
    @rustlord Yes, as i said, ideas are nice and good but looking back on last reworks which happened it doesnt look promising, sadly. Interesting idea for class exchange option, i am staying TR for life tho.
    Yes, i wasnt informed about background of CA, @micky1p00 explained it.
    If i had to pick as few abilities as possible to be reworked it would be Stealth, Skullcracker, Razor Action, Shadow of Demise, Duelist's Flurry and Shocking Execution. Cant leave out any of them if i wish for viability of both paragons and all 3 trees. Everything else are things which would be nice to have.
    However that is already 6 things to work on, seeing past reworks of other classes thats already more work than it was done for others.
    image
  • rustlord
    rustlord Member Posts: 1,454 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    @blur Haha sorry, meant to be rhetorical, as in, "Don't get any ideas from me saying about deleting my class. But if you do, could be something I'd be talked into [...]" xD

    Based on past class reworks, blanket buffs were easily the most popular, X power base damage adjusted by 30% ( up from n ). I think on top of the core reworks; stealth, WK, shocking; blanket buffs would do for other powers. That said, Duelist Flurry could be relegated as nice to have if the meta changes so that other at will powers are made more desirable. I think in terms of prioritizing there is more merit to reworking other at wills to be on par with DF's clunky state, as said in both threads it accounts for 30% of PvE dps. I doubt if other powers were made to compete with that, we'd be less worried about skipping bleeds, and more thinking what at wills best fit what scenario -- given they will do comparable DPS output per most applicable situation respectively
  • demonmonger
    demonmonger Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,350 Arc User
    1. people saying sneak attack is useless in pve is not correct, there is a passive associated with sneak attack that gives you 5% more mobility in and out of stealth. This allows you to run (not dodge) out of red zones before the aoe damage takes place.

    2. The only daze that gives combat advantage for TR is dazing strike.
    Shadow strike - should give combat advantage on target for at least 8 seconds
    Impact shot - should give combat advantage on target when used from stealth for 8 seconds
    Smoke Bomb - should give combat advantage on all targets within smoke area

    3. Courage breaker should not have its duration reduced for pvp nor should it have an internal cooldown

    4. Shadow Strike should refill stealth bar by 1000% because if you are being attacked while you cast it, your stealth bar won't refill to maximum.

    5. Stealth should be a toggle, as long as there is any stealth bar remaining, you should be able to press tab to activate it or deactivate it. (when stealth bar is 100% capacity it should flash and give x2 damage on the first attack used from stealth mode)

    (note) Often I am reading this while working, I cannot sit and point out all the inaccuracies within the statements herein, but keep in mind just because something seems pointless to you does not mean it is pointless to all play styles within the TR community.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
  • micky1p00
    micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,540 Arc User
    edited May 2017

    1. people saying sneak attack is useless in pve is not correct, there is a passive associated with sneak attack that gives you 5% more mobility in and out of stealth. This allows you to run (not dodge) out of red zones before the aoe damage takes place.

    2. The only daze that gives combat advantage for TR is dazing strike.
    Shadow strike - should give combat advantage on target for at least 8 seconds
    Impact shot - should give combat advantage on target when used from stealth for 8 seconds
    Smoke Bomb - should give combat advantage on all targets within smoke area

    3. Courage breaker should not have its duration reduced for pvp nor should it have an internal cooldown

    4. Shadow Strike should refill stealth bar by 1000% because if you are being attacked while you cast it, your stealth bar won't refill to maximum.

    5. Stealth should be a toggle, as long as there is any stealth bar remaining, you should be able to press tab to activate it or deactivate it. (when stealth bar is 100% capacity it should flash and give x2 damage on the first attack used from stealth mode)

    (note) Often I am reading this while working, I cannot sit and point out all the inaccuracies within the statements herein, but keep in mind just because something seems pointless to you does not mean it is pointless to all play styles within the TR community.

    I'm not sure where you got the numbers from, but:

    Shadow strike from stealth daze length is 4 seconds, not 8. Hence the CA should be 4.
    Impact shot stun doesn't lasts 8 seconds, hence no CA for 8 seconds. It should be for the length of the stun / interrupt.

    4: 'Refiling' stealth over 100% will allow to use at-wills in large quantity or effectively perma-stealth. In this case the not filled stealth should be reported as a bug. Without the refill suggestion.

    5: That is a suggestion, not a mistake in anything else that was suggested.


    Edit:

    Ah, if all meant to be suggestions then I misunderstood. I thought those are corrections.
  • blur#5900
    blur#5900 Member Posts: 490 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    @demonmonger Thanks, this is much better and a critic which can be worked on.

    1. I agree, even tho it seems useless it has some application, we cant expect all abilities to grant additional damage.
    2. Except for Smoke Bomb these dazes are quite short while 8 seconds is quite long. In PvE there is no need for this since CA is always up, at least in group content. In PvP i believe everyone uses Smoke Bomb, with decent recovery you would be able to have CA always just from this ability alone if duration of CA is 8 secs.
    3. CB can be kept up permanently. At least some down time would go towards balance.
    4. Agree, maybe Stealth should stay at 100% for half a sec.
    5. Nice idea but i guess too much abuse would be caused. You could use 3 stealthed encounters in row plus stealthed daily in less than 2 seconds if you dont have to wait for stealth to fully refill.
    image
  • rustlord
    rustlord Member Posts: 1,454 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    blur#5900 said:

    3. CB can be kept up permanently. At least some down time would go towards balance.

    @blur I'd like to outline and maybe support @demonmonger 's point here with CB that, for anyone who PvP worth their salt, they'd tell us that courage breaker is not a TR balance problem. It's a GWF/SW only problem because their shift doesn't work against it. On a regular BiS 1v1, which is where most class balance in PvP should be based from, CB is nowhere near as effective as it is in a group fight. But if we wanted to tackle the odds and ends of a "controller role" in PvP, CB is nowhere near as bad as, let's say, the "cancerous trapper" or Indomitable Str/Crescendo/Flourish when you're about to be ganked to smithereens.

    In that sense, CB is fine. If it should be made so that Sprint and Shadowslip ignores the slow, then that's totally fine. To further stress this topic, the duration problem is another non-TR problem concerning global AP gain that is a class-wide cancer on its own.

    PS: If it's not too much to add, it would be nice to have the tooltip for CB corrected once and for all. One of the older TRs here did the proper math for the damage reduction component, that is in reality not 30/60/90/120%. (Lookup to T.Elven tooltip change). To prove a point, just the other day I was one shotted by a IV GWF under CB. He had full stacks but I have 180K HP. So where was my 120% debuff?
  • blur#5900
    blur#5900 Member Posts: 490 Arc User
    @rustlord You have a point, insane AP gain is general problem, not TR.
    I'm not sure about this but i hope it may explain that situation with you and GWF, again im not sure it works this way but i guess it does. CB lowers the damage by 120% but, lets say for example, the GWF deals 400% damage. So even after 120% reduction from CB he still deals 280% damage. I dont use CB often nor did i test it to know for sure how it works, this was just a example which hopefully helps.
    image
  • dragoness10
    dragoness10 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 780 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    As a TR I won't cry if Smoke Bomb is removed. I never use it. Particle effects are laggy anyhow.
    " I tried to figure out the enigma that was you, and then I realized mastering Wild Magic was easier." - Old Wizard in Waterdeep

    "Why is it dragons only use ketchup? I'd like a little wasabi please. Us silvers like a variety of condiments."

    "Don't call them foolish mortals. One, they don't learn from it. Two, It just ticks them off." - An Ancient Red Dragon
  • rustlord
    rustlord Member Posts: 1,454 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    blur#5900 said:

    ~

    As I remember it tested, it's actually a multiplier, so that 120% means to be DMG / 1+1.2;

    In practice that would lower a 100K hit from 100K down to 45K. In a straight up math, it holds up as a 55% damage reduction. If you were familiar with the old Trans.Elven description, it was like this as well, it said something like "reduce control duration by 200%" when in absolute terms it was 67%.

    Edit: I meant it is multiplicative. If it is additive as in your example, it would be DMG - 120% which would ofc result to 0 damage, definitely not as observed.